Forum Post: If We Start Over What Would The Social Institutions Look Like? An Honest and Open Discussion.
Posted 11 years ago on Jan. 26, 2013, 6:15 p.m. EST by quantumystic
(1710)
from Memphis, TN
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
Our social institutions are failed or failing what is the way forward from here? What will our rebuilt institutions look like? Never before has such a total change in society needed to be undertaken. So lets look at our institutions.
1) The family and community: Today our families and communities are in ruins there is no one denying that. There is a fundamental social disconnect not just in communities and between neighbors but many times between friends and family members themselves. Then there is the disintegration of the core of the family, it's complete obliteration. Between single parent households, the dual income households, and the increasing distance between family and friends as well as the need to relocate to new regions for employment in the new economy. What remains often of the family is one parent for a few hours a week and little or no direct interaction with extended family or old friends.
Here are some questions I have for you: How do families vary across different societies, historical periods, classes, and ethnic groups? How are authority, resources, and work distributed within families? How do parents, particularly mothers, balance the demands of work and family? What are the causes and effects of divorce, domestic violence, and single parenting?
2) Education: Americas education system is broken. We all know school is there these days to produce obedient workers. How do we overhaul our entire education system k-graduate school? Also I would like to know: How do educational practices vary across different societies and historical periods? How does education affect individuals’ subsequent activities and achievements? What are the effects of class, race, and gender on educational institutions and experiences? What are the causes and consequences of various trends in education, such as grade inflation, violence in schools, and increasing public funding of religious instruction?
3)Religion: No social institution is as failed and has hindered progress as much as religion. Is there a way forward that incorporates the scientific principals with mystical understanding and techniques for achieving direct mystical experience in a practical, universal, tangible, and applicable way to create the kind of belief system that is needed to move forward in this hypothetical reboot? Some additional questions I have are: How do the world religions differ? How are they similar? How have religions developed and changed, and why do people engage with them? What is the relationship between religion and other aspects of social life such as stratification, deviance, and conflict? What are the causes and consequences of contemporary trends such as secularization, the splintering of religious groups, and shifting church–state relationships?
4) Economic Institutions: Okay I lied there are other institutions as failed as religion. We are all well aware of the complete and utter failings of our economy. Of the whole neighborhoods and indeed cities, and lets be quite honest the entire disenfranchisement of the black community. What economic system or model/theory or new hybrid concept of your own creating do you feel would work best given what we know in 2013? Also: What institutions and relations characterize different economic systems (e.g., capitalism, socialism, and feudalism)? How do consumption and leisure patterns differ among various cultures, historical periods, and social groups? How do the structures of business organizations affect productivity, job satisfaction, and inequalities? What are the causes and consequences of contemporary trends such as economic liberalization, declining unionization, and increased consumer debt?
5)Political Institutions: As with the all the institutions the current political ones in place have proven completely incapable of any meaningful change in a good way. What would a new political system that actually would work for progress look like? Also: How do political institutions differ across historical periods and societies? How do different social groups participate in political institutions, and with what consequences? How and why do individuals participate in political processes such as voting or joining lobbying groups? How are political institutions related to other aspects of society, such as the economy and the mass media? In addition conflict theory is the belief that: Pluralism and democracy are illusions that invite the powerless to believe that they have a voice in governance, when in fact their control is quite limited. Is there any way around this problem?
6) Tie it all together in a united vision for the future of America and indeed humanity. Let me hear how you envision the institutions working together to form a more perfect union. After some open discussion for a few days I will post my completed revision of the 5 institutions for our future.
Divorce rates are through the roof. Why is that? Why is it we are no longer happy? What happened? What changed over the last 50 years that enough is no longer enough? Were we really never happy to begin with? Was the "good ol days" not really that different than now? And if so, then what was the change in the family unit?
Speaking as someone who has grown up from a shitstorm, and Im not talking about your usual stuff- Im talking about rough stuff from top to bottom and all around, really stupid and messed up shit- what chance are we giving kids whom are growing up with no stability whatsoever?
18 years since everything, Im still haunted by it and still bothered by the sense that there is no home. There is no home. There is no place to go for the holidays. Myself and my brothers, are trying to put things together these days in a grownup manner, but its not quite right. Let me repeat that- there is no home. There is no place to go that feels familiar. One lends a place that is constantly changing and never feels anything less than frustrating, while the other is simply- gone.
The thing is, and we all know this, this story is not all alone. Its actually more common than not. Whether its the natural progression of the family unit into the future, as some say, is to be determined. Its hard to argue with them. It seems common now, and seems to be increasing.
But what is the toll this is taking on the youth. What is this doing to a species whom main defining characteristic is the ability to feel?
The average family is now more likely to implode than to do what is natural according to history- stay together. Im not posting this as a naysayer or someone whose into doomsday rhetoric, but as someone how sees and has lived a very stark reality- compared to others- and wants to discuss this in a manageable manner.
Is this the society reacting out of their own will? Or is this part of a central planning that profits and feeds off of dysfunction?
PS- I tell myself to grow up and suck it up. Thats what I do. Most say to a fault. But Im not naive to human nature, and Im not naive to the feelings its generated in myself and Ive seen in my siblings in more visible manners.
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Freeing people to do whatever they please is akin to legitimizing bad behavior. Which is exactly what the 60s was all about. And then they created the social institutions necessary to enable this dysfunction. The result: dystopia and psychosis. We are a mentality ill society.
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I guess my real objection here is that not all religions are worthy of being sneered at. I'm a practicing Buddhist and I think my religion is very worthy.
there are large chunks of buddhism i would leave on the cutting room floor. your way is not any better than any other way.
Your ignorance is showing. You obviously know nothing of anything.
Śīla refers to overall principles of ethical behavior. There are several levels of sila, which correspond to "basic morality" (five precepts), "basic morality with asceticism" (eight precepts), "novice monkhood" (ten precepts) and "monkhood" (Vinaya or Patimokkha). Lay people generally undertake to live by the five precepts, which are common to all Buddhist schools. If they wish, they can choose to undertake the eight precepts, which add basic asceticism.
The five precepts are training rules in order to live a better life in which one is happy, without worries, and can meditate well:
To refrain from taking life (non-violence towards sentient life forms), or ahimsā; To refrain from taking that which is not given (not committing theft); To refrain from sensual (including sexual) misconduct; To refrain from lying (speaking truth always); To refrain from intoxicants which lead to loss of mindfulness (specifically, drugs and alcohol). The precepts are not formulated as imperatives, but as training rules that laypeople undertake voluntarily to facilitate practice.[90] In Buddhist thought, the cultivation of dana and ethical conduct themselves refine consciousness to such a level that rebirth in one of the lower heavens is likely, even if there is no further Buddhist practice. There is nothing improper or un-Buddhist about limiting one's aims to this level of attainment.[91]
In the eight precepts, the third precept on sexual misconduct is made more strict, and becomes a precept of celibacy. The three additional precepts are:
To refrain from using high or luxurious seats and bedding. The complete list of ten precepts may be observed by laypeople for short periods. For the complete list, the seventh precept is partitioned into two, and a tenth added:
To refrain from taking food at an unseasonable time, that is after the mid-day meal;
I know half your precepts are bullshit. You have got to be kidding me. No meat, no booze, no drugs, no entertainment, no dressing nice, no comfortable seating or bedding, no sex, NO WAY!!!!
Not to take sides here, but our living practices ARE epigenetic triggers.
Very subtle but powerful over time.
What are you implying?
Epigenetics are triggered by conditions. Many of those are mental. Epigenetics control which gene manifests in cell growth, brain or otherwise.
Epigenetics control our evolution in our life spans and alter the genes we pass on.
See it is you that is ignorant thinking your way is in any way better some other jacked up religion. I am talking about creating a system that is not jacked up. Sure maybe some buddhist thought may be involved but to say buddhism is better than other religion is some real ignorance. If there were a religion that was worthy on it's own it is not a splinter sect of hinduism.
Other than your ignorant insults to religion you may have something here.
I think those are very valid questions about religion.
Religions were created to organize specific groups of people in order to distinguish themselves from others. But, from day one, religions have oppressed and stifled people's spirit. Today, there are churches on every street corner, some in old buildings, some in schools. It seems that everyone is searching for a community of like-minded individuals and then calling themselves a ' Church of...."
Even worse is that politicians use G-d as a prop to force votes by distinctly serving one moral agenda that will draw more votes from a single group of people who may have otherwise agreed with all the other party's agenda. How can someone vote Democrat and be pro-life? That would make them a baby killer and they will burn in hell!!
"From the earliest arrival of Europeans on America’s shores, religion has often been a cudgel, used to discriminate, suppress and even kill the foreign, the “heretic” and the “unbeliever”—including the “heathen” natives already here. Moreover, while it is true that the vast majority of early-generation Americans were Christian, the pitched battles between various Protestant sects and, more explosively, between Protestants and Catholics, present an unavoidable contradiction to the widely held notion that America is a “Christian nation.” K. Davis
" One nation under G-d"??? Whose G-d? This is why I am not a conventional religious zealot. I don't have any affinity for religions and I believe that they are completely unnecessary since they have absolutely nothing to do with a person's spiritual relationship with anything and have everything to do with a person's relationship with other members of the congregation who most likely share a political view. All religions follow the same basic construct. There's always a G-d, always a heaven and a hell. The ten Buddhist precepts are almost identical to the ten commandments. But, whether someone is Buddhist or Christian or Hindu. religions always appeal to one's egoistic needs, not one's spiritual relationship with their G-d, creator or the natural world. Jesus did not need religion to live as he did, neither did Buddha. We made wise men into heroes and cult leaders (just like Jim Jones) and we created institutions in their name. In a sense, we devalued their teachings by turning them into corporations and mega-monopolies that compete against others. Religions succeed by attempting to answer the mysterious questions that cause fear in people. Religions offer freedom from guilt, redemption-alleviating fear of death and they always make promises that they never have to live up to because they always shift their accountability to G-d. Religions are successful because while they alleviate fear, they also instill even more fear....fear of other religious groups, fear of not giving money and receiving a token to heaven, fear of hell, fear of living without the Church to bless them and forgive them when they falter and fear of not going to that end place/heaven. " You need us to get to heaven, you need us to to protect you and you need us to get rich'. This is of course, a big fat lie. Each of us could accomplish spiritual enlightenment on our own if we desire to and are willing to dedicate our lives to spiritual practice on a daily basis. But, it's easier to just do that one day a week and besides, there is more superficially gratifying since others will see you at Church, what you are wearing and how much money you give. Then you go home and do the same as always without a care in the world. There is not much incentive there to live a spiritual life of integrity and good character if you can get saved every week from all your sins. A Church of Repeaters?
On the flipside, there are some sincere believers out there who do live a spiritual life every day and they are not seeking accolades, tokens to heaven, money or anything else. They don't feel any need to tell everyone what religion they belong to and they don't use props to sell G-d. Who is the person who uses props really trying to convince? I mean if you're speeding by me at 80 mph, running folks off the road and blowing your horn but I see a big fish on your bumper, am I going to believe you're a good Christian? No..but I might believe you were a bad one. The true believers are the ones who feel a greater, divine purpose in their daily work, daily behavior, daily choices and who want to shine their little light on everyone. They strive to be compassionate and respectful. They don't need a religious community to have a relationship with their divine creator ( or lack of one) but they recognize the benefits of community and the support that it can provide.
My eighth great grandfather was fired from his job because he refused to baptize his newborn son. His argument was that no one should be baptized without consent. I couldn't agree with him more. Choosing a religion should be a personal choice based on education, not by default. BTW, he had been a former Pastor.
I wish that I could find a community to belong to where all schools of religious thought were welcomed but that's tough because even the athiests get all bent up when someone like me enters the room. Yes, I believe in G-d, I also believe in evolution, I also believe that there is an after-life and reincarnation. But, does any of that really matter? Not as far as I'm concerned. I am not motivated to behave well in order to avoid hell nor am I motivated to behave well in order to go to heaven. My life is now. I feel horrible when I've hurt someone or I've made a mistake and feel wonderful when I make others feel wonderful. We all have a choice in these matters even though we may not have as much free will as we'd like to believe. We are all living a life of service but it's up to each of us to decide who, what, when, where, why and how we serve. Hopefully, it's a spiritually rewarding journey and in the end, we feel accomplished and truly happy. If anyone's interested, I have my own organic church in the backyard and everyone and their pets are always welcome: Elizabethan Church of Peaches - Where life is always a peachy labor of love. ;D
Are you kidding me, whose God? You must not know your US history as this country was founded by people who believed in the God of Adam, Moses, David, Salomon and Jesus. You can want it otherwise, however it is written into our founding documents and is still on the money you use every day.
Why are you picking an argument with a comment over 4 months old?
because I just read it.
There is nothing ignorant about my statements on religion. Religion as a social institution is an abject failure. I think we need to take the scholar based approach when it comes to religion and let people make up their own minds as adults instead of indoctrinating them and filling them with garbage starting as a preschool kid during sunday school.
I have to agree. Instead of teaching people to do unto others as you would have done unto yourself, it should be this truth that is taught at an early age: You will probably feel a need to do unto others what has been done to you. If you were sexually abused as a child, you might unknowingly need someone else to feel that too. If you were stolen from, you will probably steal. If you've been wronged, you'll probably need revenge.
I went to Sunday school and was a real bad kid. It did me absolutely no good. After church I would start wars with other kids, vandalize, steal and do whatever made me feel daring.
I think when people reach the age of reason, and if the indoctrination doesn't stick, they choose a new path anyway.
It's only fear, I think, that binds people to religion. Even the ones who know their religion is a scam, bind themselves to it out of fear... fear of being defeated, for example.
AMEN:-)
Say What? Are you one of the numerous masses that does not realize that religion is a man made construct used to control the gullible?
Are you one of the numerous masses that does not realize that insulting religion is not the way to mobilize the masses?
I realize that the masses need to wake up and stop letting themselves be used by fanatics in positions of power/influence.
I have to side with you on this one. There is no place for religion in government or the future. All we need is love for all creation. Religions, certain corporations and elite groups with their self-serving agendas... makes me sick.
Religion as it is currently constructed is a failure. My question is more along the lines of can there be a NEW belief system that incorporates what is valuable from religious doctrines, science, and a direct tangible mystical experience that is capable of life changing consequences.
Every religion has some sort of guideline list. For instance, Christianity and Judaism have the Ten Commandments, Islam has similar verses in the Koran, and Buddhism has The Five Precepts and The Four Noble Truths. They all pretty much say the same thing, which is to be good to one another, treat everyone as your equal, and be a good person. Just be.
I think even non-believers can get behind that. (It's why many people who study Buddhism consider it to be a philosophy, not a religion.)
Organized religion is a huge fear-based construct. If every person just sat for a moment, got physically away from the dogma, and looked into their own hearts and souls, they'd see this.
Perhaps in a resource-based economy, as opposed to a money-based one, with no national borders and a scientific government on top. The change can start in one nation and spread as others witness the prosperity.
I think this guy knows what's up: http://thevenusproject.com/ Jacque's vision makes me wonder if there is a better alternative.
Religions don't offer anything special or unique... don't be a dick is all you need to know and without money as a primary motivator, why would anyone fuck around? We should look to the first nations of all nations, seek spiritual guidance from them, and let everyone love their mother the way nature intended.
There you go. Glad to meet another sane individual. Love and everyone deserves it - complete. We are no different then we want to make ourselves. And that is a fiction. We ALL deserve a happy peaceful prosperous life - ALL.
Why are you lying? Or do you not really understand ?
R U sad depressed lonely? Were you abused as a child? Indoctrinated into some sort of cult? R U on your own now? Understand - your search for God? That is if you have a desire to find God. Do you guide yourself ( find your own path to travel ) or do you let others tell you what to believe?
Actually I am sitting. Hah. Idiot. God is real - yep - religion is not. So - WTFU.
So precious..
Work at it - if you mean it - it might happen.
So - deathshead - are you a worshiper of Kali or something? Do you go around strangling people? Or you still working yourself up to your 1st?
You really need to see what the 99% Conglomerate is all about. I just proposed a bit earlier that I'd explain how it can solve any problem you can think of.
Maybe it can't, but challenging the idea in this way has allowed it to develop into what it has become, or what it is becoming.
I might be able to refer you to a post or topic, and elaborate in the current context. So, if you were only allotted a short sentence to describe the most pertinent problem society faces today, what would it be? Maybe the most pertinent issue for you today is specific to education, the economy or nature.
For me, the biggest, most pertinent issue is brutally irresponsible capitalism and a money-based economy.
What if all science and medicine refused to acknowledge 7 times more mental capacity which actually exists in us and influences each of us everyday in everyway?
Would that be a supreme irresponsibility?
In Phase 3 maturity, we would have the ability to eradicate such hindrances to progress.
I'll add your contribution in a topic linked to from here: http://occupywallst.org/forum/p2-presence/#comment-923162
If you have a broad statement to cover this and things like "suppressed technological advancements..." I'd be glad to add it to P3 rules.
Any entity (subsidiary of the 99%Conglomerate) is responsible for its representatives/members and must face the rules of the constitution as an Irresponsible Entity.
I might have started like that but up to you.
You ask some very tough questions; and this is a difficult task. I had to get up for a while and think about it. I finally decided there’s not enough room here to provide any meaningful response However, here’s what I believe.
Basically I think our society is too broken to fix. Families cannot flourish in our current environment, education will not be fixed, corporations will continue to be greedy and the government will continue to be the lapdog for corporations. I do not see the people rising up to fix things.
Disclaimer: I was a racist in my youth. My father was a racist and one of my brothers calls himself a White Nationalist. But I finally grew up and saw all the hatred with these people. So in my adult years I see all people as being equal in the eyes of god. (if you’re an atheist just drop the eyes of god part).
One thing I learned from my brother is now white racists are trying to build white only communities in the Northwest, called PLE’s (poor little Europe). Their idea is to separate from other races and build from that point.
So, my solution to all your questions is like minded people like us should build our own communities, detached as much as from the influence of modern society. Communities where people focus on family and community. It will take generations for this make any significant changes, but it’s probably faster than trying to change society as a whole.
Thanks for taking your time to share. How would you construct the social institutions in this new community?
I see nothing special in these communities. Using the white nationalist model it would be a place where like minded people gather to live and raise their families. The idea would be to distance themselves, as much as possible, from the influence of a corrupt society.
To start such a community just advertise it. Explain the purpose and recruit folks. This idea is not as crazy as it sounds. For instance, fleeing Californians have transformed a number of communities to meet their needs and tastes.
We have visions of a honest government, law abiding businesses and an educational system that works. My proposal is simply to build such an environment one small community at a time. I say build it and they will come.
I understand this would take generations to make a significant difference. But still faster than trying to fix systems that are beyond redemption.
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I would sum it all up by saying that our social institutions would be loved-based instead of fear-based. That would make all the difference. It would make for a society of truth over lies, fairness over injustice, generosity over greed, knowledge over ignorance, inclusion over exclusion, peace over war, etc.
I appreciate you taking the time to post is there anything you would like to say about specific institutions?
When you pit the individual against the community you create problems in all of these institutions. It does not have to be this way. It does not have to be me vs. you. Me vs. you is a development of the capitalist economic system that says if you have something, then I don't, and I better get it. It fosters competition among human beings and ultimately, greed and an inability to share because of the fear that you won't have enough for yourself.
So, in the end it is love that is the answer. If we truly loved our children we would want all parents to work at jobs that allow them time with their children and that pay enough money to provide for their children. If we truly loved knowledge kids would love going to school. But, as a society we don't love knowledge, we love information that can get us ahead, make us money. This is void of feeling and turns kids off. Testing is a way that they foster that mentality and strict curriculum and rubrics that seek to "measure" a child's success at learning. If we truly loved "god" we would get rid of religion. Spirituality has nothing to do with one group being superior and "right" over another group. In fact, in my mind, that would be the opposite of what any "god" would want.
So, of course, and I say this all the time, the economic system needs to also be love-based, human-based. It needs to provide for all human beings, not just the wealthy and corporations. The amassing of wealth by the few should not be the priority, but that everyone has enough, that should be the priority. Any economic system that does not ensure that all of the human beings living within it have enough is an abject failure. Our economic system is an abject failure.
So, getting rid of fear and turning to love is the root cure, as silly as that may sound to many people. It affects everything we do.
I think Charles Eisenstein gets it right:
http://sacred-economics.com/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRtc-k6dhgs
In a love based society, while family would still be the central genetic and caregiving group, the community that the family lives in would also be considered extended family. "It takes a village" would be become reality, so choosing a community to live and grow in, based on the ideals that the community holds, would be important.
In a love based society, creativity in education would be the standard. Teach what needs to be known for a full and happy life living with the earth - art, music, math, sciences, medicine, etc, but taught as if all of the subjects were connected. Art and music can be combined with science and math, etc.
In a love based society, the main "religious" ideology would be love itself. Organized religion, which is a form of governmental/group control would no longer be something that people looked towards for guidance.
Economy, politics? Would they even exist in a love based society?
Schools that would evaluate each student's/individual's strengths and weaknesses and determine how they best respond to receiving information - written, oral, visual, hands on, combination. Schools that embrace creativity - music - art. Schools that address a complete individual - physical and mental appreciating all aspects of life and harmony with the world/environment.
Umm that would be a good start - I think.
Those are some good ideas. Anything else you would like to add on any of the 6 core subjects?
Perhaps - but I am having a bad day - so maybe later.
Well when you feel better.
For starters We need things for proposed planning and functional units by peoples decision. The bleek picture of failed systems need not be included with new plan. Granted we need to be aware of details involving current operation. Even transitional stages will need space. Pilot projects are and ideal way to get tings done differently. Even in planning stages pilot projects for alternative ideals generally make for easier understanding and public support.