Forum Post: How to defeat trolls and the establishment in this forum. Have your say!
Posted 12 years ago on Dec. 4, 2011, 8:27 p.m. EST by blazefire
(947)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
I would love to hear anyone's advice on how we can be self-moderating. ie; can we as the users of this forum take steps to reduce the impact of trolls and those that are obviously NOT working towards occupy ends.
I would say though that there are 2 very simple steps to follow, that will ensure the best threads stay at the top, and that trolls don't get a spot!
Don't feed the trolls! - If a thread or the creator of the thread is saying offensive things, or being offensive - DON'T comment! That will bring that thread all the way to the top again! If you are really offended, or would like to engage the offensive post/thread, send a PM instead, so that the offensive material will stay down.
Encourage good threads! - If you like the direction a thread has taken, leave a comment! And let the creator know that, even if you don't have input, you admire their efforts. This will only result in the best threads remaining close to the top, whilst the ones who's content may not be so good, will drop.
-edit- And vote! Vote on all posts! And Encourage others to vote also! As soon as a post receives -4 votes it collapses, and those that receive positive votes go up the list.... so vote and get others too also!
-edit2- Definition of a troll. One that displays clear disingenuous discourse. One that uses insults, and personal attacks in their arguments.
Definition of 'establishment': For the purposes of this thread 'establishment', can be defined as any governmental body or any of it's subsidiaries or agencies working as sub-contractors, or contractors therein.
(awesome! it kinda sounded legal!)
-edit3- Just thought I'd add this article to 'prove' the existence of the establishment on this forum, and the extent of it.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2011/mar/17/us-spy-operation-social-networks
-edit4- Also, you can email a moderator in case of any abuse:
abuse@occupywallst.org
for moderation and rules, go here:
http://occupywallst.org/forum/moderating-policies-will-be-reposted-somewhere-pro/
(And yes I know it's already at the top there already for everyone to see...just thought I'd include it for the sake of completion ;) )
And DON'T FORGET RULE #2! Give thanks! Have an attitude of gratitude! Omnia vincit amor!
-edit5-
Wow! The edits keep coming!
If your looking for something to do straight away to help occupy just look below....(yes, right now from where your sitting...;).....FREE!)
http://occupywallst.org/forum/something-that-you-can-do-right-now-from-where-you/
-edit7- So, after some hunting I discovered a couple of places for people to go and 'play' with real sock puppets. This is somewhere you can go to find out what it is like to talk to a BOT. Give it a go! This is further 'proof', not that you needed it, that these entities are here and more than capable of propoganda disemination, and, more than capable of dicussing and disgusting you. Btw thnx to all the guys out there that helped me find this stuff! Please BE AWARE!
Use the vote option on posts.
Higher scores rise to the top. At -4 they collapse.
Remember: wisdom is the first thing that disappears when you get angry.
UPDATE
Voting doesn't work anymore because the trolls use multiple accounts to vote themselves up. richardgates aka MoRichardGates, RichardKGates, RichardKenGates, RichardKentGates, Fred Astaire and others has voted himself up 18 in a thread he started, and in which he made 20 of 29 posts.
See it here: http://occupywallst.org/forum/mayday/
Time to abandon this forum. Our energy can be better spent being productive than dicing it out with those who would tear us down or co-opt us for their own profit - like the TROLL richardgates.
Thrasymaque ----troll
Check out his work
http://occupywallst.org/forum/cia-insider-susan-lindauer-911-was-supervised-by-t/#comment-465320
No kidding. Disruptor Thrasy controls the top 36 screens of that post through photos and his 7 points (earlier it was 10 pts.).
The point system is stupid. It allows enemies as easily as our side to control posts. It also makes posts extremely boring since the same comments stay at the top. If you are trying to follow the discussion over time, it's almost impossible.
Comments should be ordered by time, newest first. This site is supposed to help us sort out ideas and figure out where we want to go, yes? The point system works against this.
Why should I make comments on long-time posts when my comment will disappear somewhere in the middle where few will find it, let alone read it?
That' very true. I think it is even more frustrating to create a forum and see it disappear because nobody clicked on it during its 3 minutes on the front page. I guess this is what we have to live with like it or not.
No, you can submit pull requests to the Github account. This is open-source software. You are free to submit modifications. I even encourage you do to so.
If it reached 10 points, it is because people enjoyed the comment. That should tell you something.
If you are not happy with the system in place you have two options:
Open-source software is a community effort. Anyone can contribute to the code. Complaining how the forum works doesn't do much. If you are not a coder, you could donate money to someone like myself to implement your ideas.
Yes, check it out. The link is also accessible in the Best Comments of the Day section.
Sir, I do not believe you have done such a vandalism. I beseech you to edit them. They are very counter-productive. Your point could be quite reasonable in vilifying the so-called "conspiracy theories," hadn't you used a distressing method.
I enjoy vandalizing pages that are not even supposed to be here in the first place. Truthers have annoyed us and diverted our attention with their unproven and lame conspiracy theories for ten years now and have no evidence to show for their work. If I annoy and divert their attention by attacking a few of their posts, they should not complain.
Sir, I am convinced to this mature argument. Still, I believe, silence curbs them out.
Possibly. However, it is not much fun. It takes me five minutes to ruin their posts. This does give them attention for a brief moment. Afterwards, I just ignore the defaced thread and it sinks to the bottom of the pile like it should. If they decide to revive it, everybody sees that it is defaced and hopefully a few young minds can be saved because they will wonder why and investigate a little further on their own.
The main reason though is for fun.
In other words, vote pluses for the decent content, vote negatives for the spammers. However, how will we really know the spammers unless we ask for their papers?
Oh, and since I replied to a plus four comment, I might as well put a link to www.occupynews.net
I'm kind of surprised at the drop in hits today. 175 occupy blogs blogging RSS feeds so you can keep in touch (just pick a couple) can't be wrong, can they?
Must be the picture of Adam Carolla keeping people away.
Spammers can make valid comments, too. Not often, and usually by accident, but it does happen.
yes, even a blind squirrel can find an acorn, or so they say.
Search This Website
This is a tread to organize forum Topics by category
Please do not respond to posts here. Follow the link to the thread and post there.
I've been collecting and organizing thread heads. Each thread head post has a link to thread on this forum so some threads have been ordered and can be brought back up.
The Protest
The Issues
.
general catch all
detractors
markdown
Not time to abandon. Time to overcome this BS of dealing with infiltrators and time to unify. Consider, infiltrators will not want that, the sincere, in defense of the constitution, uses its natural law veracity, to justify unconditional unity in use of article 5 of the US Constitution.
Burrrmp.
'Course, this should all be common sense. Sadly, even a model of restraint such as myself [/irony] can be held guilty of commenting on an obvious troll post, thus keeping the bastards UP on the list.
This means of course, no matter how witty or insightful your response to them is, that they win (in their own little mind at least) as they never wanted to engage in discussion to begin with, and don't care if they are demolished in an argument, because they are only here to disrupt and confuse.
Yes, common sense tells me to Ignore them. Must listen to that still, small voice ore often.
if good threads had descriptive titles
they are easier to find
It's not called censorship, it's called disinfectant. We know that since 2001 the NSA and FBI and CIA and Military intelligence have all gotten into the game of disrupting open freedom seeking movements such as OWS.
And we know that the most cost effective way to disempower and diminish the effectiveness of open movements is by infiltrating and attacking the open forums such as these.
It is very dangerous to allow this filth to take over these forums like they quite obviously have here. Young people who might not be so aware of such techniques might get a very wrong impression of this movement because it seems there is more of this right wing filth on there than there is REAL posts about real issues.
This is the people's forums NOT the dumping ground of the NSA, FBI, CIA and military intelligence and whatever other organizations that the US Intelligence agencies subcontract this kind of work out to.
Right now the OWS movement is THE BIGGEST THREAT to the entrenched right wing, and that is why they are spending a massive effort to undermine this forum and this movement. Please contact the various working groups and demand a moderation process for this Forum or you will that they will very much be able to successfully drown out our message under a tsunami of distracting and disgusting disinformation. There is no way that this much right wing garbage is coming naturally, this is the result of a coordinated effort by the intelligence services and their various think tanks and subcontractors. Lets do the right thing and DISINFECT.
and check out http://www.voxnews.com
There's a lot of information about what's going on - let's clean up the forum and get on the right track.
Great post! Thnx! keep the truth coming!
Jacqueline bordering on truth? You're being sarcastic right? She's a conspiracy nut!
Apparently I DO need to repeat myself. I make NO judgements. I do however encourage people to input. AND truth can come from all sorts of places. It even came from you...anyhoo...please do not be surprised if I do not engage you anymore....your wasting time I could be spending with people who want to achieve something....
You said - "Great post! Thnx! keep the truth coming!" I fail to see what truth she brought to the table and wanted to ask you to clarify. I might be missing something that you are able to see. Perhaps, I can learn from your vigilant eyes?
BTW - Are you a fan of Denny Blaze?
This is ridiculous. The CIA is not undergoing some secret operation on this forum.
From PBS Nova. The Spy Factory:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/military/spy-factory.html
More likely Homeland Security, that's their job, to secretly monitor and interdict..
Help End the Patriot Act. Sign a petition, before Admiral wannabe McCain Takes over America.
http://occupywallst.org/forum/senate-passes-bill-allowing-indefinite-detention-o/#comment-447961
Brandon, no, maybe.
I would find it, no offense intended, native to believe the government, not necessarily CIA, but more like Justice, FBI, Homeland Security is not watching this movement, closely.
The USA is the biggest police state in human history. Once again, no they are not shooting us from roof tops like in Syria, but to think these government offices have to justify their existence and are not following us, it beyond my understanding of how the government works.
I just added a link up the top... esp for you! check it out.... It details the extent, amount and tactics of intel agencies on social networks and public forums...
Yeah, but every time someone disagrees with you, it's not the CIA.
All too true....and you can get paranoid and illogical if you think that's the case! In fact BLURRING that very line is part of the tactics of psyops, and works by setting us against one another.... BUT yes the CIA are here.... so are the FBI and MANY other intel agencies.... they're all fighting over the 99%...kinda cute really!
Ok, so what do you call people like Jacqueline who keeps re-posting the same paranoid, illogical stuff along with her personal, hostile and insulting opinions (as if they are factual)? Is she a "troll" even if she seems to be supportive of OWS-but against absolutely everything to the "right" of it?
Posters who are adamantly "against" anyone who differs with their "opinion" or those who ask for evidence that would support their statements aren't helping. Those who are so extremely entrenched in their own point of view, no matter what it is, set themselves up against others. In such cases, the CIA, FBI etc are unnecessary.
I would agree with all the points you just said! I don't know what the case is with Jacqueline... Not my judgement call. But if ANYONE needs to resort to insults and derogatory comments....well, that's clearly when the discussion is over. People who are simply opinionated, and stubborn...well there are plenty of them to go around too. Either way, leave them, whoever they are, and move on. They are seriously not worth your time, esp when there are so many people who ARE genuine, and won't resort to name calling, and will concede a point, made through intellectual discourse and reason.
I think I love you. :-)
Thanks
;)...... Omnia vincit amor! Check these threads out...
http://occupywallst.org/forum/im-here-to-listen-what-is-it-you-want-to-be-heard/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/what-can-be-done-to-make-this-forum-better/
More discourse. More reason. Question EVERYTHING!
Occupy everything.
LOWER TAXES. Stop all welfare checks.
Brandon, guess what, you do not even have the knowledge of such esoteric matters to even know one way or another and so therefore your opinion is of little matter. Opinions only matter when they are backed by some knowledge on the subject - tell us brandon how and where did you acquire the unique knowledge on such matters so that we should give a flying shit for your pea brain opinion?
Jaqueline, it is true that COINTELPRO was created to infiltrate, monitor and discredit movements, and it is highly likely that numerous intelligence agencies are presently doing this to OWS at all levels.
However, unless you can name people and present specific compelling verifiable evidence "beyond a shadow of a doubt", those people must remain "innocent until proven guilty"; it's the only decent thing to do, and how true justice works.
That is not to imply that your cautions are useless. If those people exist and you cannot prove it, then everyone must still be vigilant. The best way to respond to ANYONE, wether they be troll or shill or opponent or idiot or sceptic, is simply to refute them; tirelessly.
You cannot simultaneously claim the power to label a "Troll" and also maintain your right to govern. You cannot force your will upon the movement since most will reject your whims.
You can only seek to enlighten others; to strengthen the whole by strengthenning it's parts. Many will ignore you. Many will mock you. Many will never change, but some and--if you are right--enough, will.
You cannot prove anything beyond a shadow of a doubt when dealing with CLANDESTINE SECRET INTELLIGENCE AGENCIES posting through a proxy server anonymously on a forum which does not even demand a confirmation email for membership. hello! So your demands that I prove these people are what I claim they are is itself a diversionary and hopeless.
In these matters the only way to navigate this swarming sea of lies and disinfo is with experience and in that area I have all the experience in the world. I have operated forums for over 12 years and in 2001 when the COINTELPRO apparatus in the United States was put into high gear I saw first hand how it was done. And I am well aware of it's effectiveness. I know it when i see it and you do not because you lack the experience.
But that is how knowledge works, until you know something - you cannot know it. (sounds circular but it is the basis of empiricism)
Then stop polluting this forum with your rants and apply to be a moderator. What are you waiting for? This is a community website, anyone can participate actively.
This is not the only the best way, it is the only way. The arguments of anybody on these boards can only be refuted by using proper counter-arguments. Anything else is just dabbling in logical fallacies and is not productive in the least.
I guess Jacqueline's point is we should not be using the forum. I can't see why she would bring up her conspiracy theory otherwise. She provides no solution to the 'problem' she addresses. It's really not a problem at all since you'll have to use proper debating tactics in all cases anyways. What she should have done is write a post on how to formulate proper rebuttals, how to avoid conspiracy theories, how to avoid using logical fallacies and how to counter them; how to become a critical thinker who's words have meaning. Instead, she's just wasting everybody's time.
It could also be very possible that she IS who she seems to be warning us about. (I'm expressing this as a possibility-an option-an opinion) Her posts are rife with the very same behaviors that the programs she's complaining about did/do.
She says inflammatory things that are likely to produce infighting and arguments in order to pit one against another. She deals with half truths and insinuation, and seems to want to do nothing but breed paranoia and and suspicion. When you don't respond with either one of those things, she resorts to personal attacks and insults. Rational, honest, reasonable people don't do that because they know it decreases their credibility and shoves people away-not the opposite.
My point here is that for someone who says she wants people to join OWS, and support OWS, and work with OWS-her actions are the kind that result in exactly the opposite.
All I can tell for certain is that she can't debate an issue properly, and is just making herself look bad.
Jaqueline, let us try and keep this as civil as possible.
The vast majority of our population gets it's news from corporate sources, even in school. We need to educate, not insult.
I can understand how you feel about his, I feel the same way. I have asked professors of mine, from when I was in University, how is it possible to teach a course on American History and not teach that Fred Hampton Sr. was found by an American Court to have been murdered by the FBI and Chicago PD. They express to me in private they are worried about keeping their teaching jobs.
Just this Saturday, a husband of a teacher friend of mine, told his private school teacher wife to bring Occupiers to her classroom to counter act what the media is saying about us. She expressed fear for her job.
So when you find people who lack knowledge of American history, give them the links to educate them, but do not insult them. It does not serve the long term goals of our movement.
I disagree, sometimes what is needed is a SHOCK AND AWE approach. You see some people are so incredibly think that first they need to be alerted to the fact that they are incredibly think then there may be a fallback technique to then begin a more patient process of "re-education" but the grip on their minds that the Television has on them is so great that you need to hammer your way through some of these THICK and very dumbed down people.
Just wanted to point out....
-edit2- Definition of a troll. One that displays clear disingenuous discourse. One that uses insults, and personal attacks in their arguments.
Not making any judgements here, fore or against your position. I AM saying as I have said that we should be SELF moderating. I am tabling the fact that insults and personal attacks achieve nothing....and if ANYONE is using those tactics, then the discussion has ended. The debate is over, and verbal anarchy will reign. I think one question, everyone, should ask before posting is:
Is this intended to further MY cause, or THE cause?
I've never met someone who was incredibly think, let alone someone who needs to be alerted to the fact that they are.
you just proved my point - whenever someone doesn't have an argument they try to pick out a TYPO, (in this case one produced by an auto spellchecker.) wow some strong argument you got there slimeball... You're a slimy piece of shit (did i spell that right?)
You can't punctuate either.
But by all means, keep showing us how strong your arguments are with all those insults and ad hominem attacks ok? Your superior logic and reason is something we all can learn from.
Can you show us the knowledge you have that confirms the CIA is watching us on this forum? Otherwise, it's just an opinion.
Yes. Read the posts I have made on this thread. I have explained it thoroughly. You know how to read do you?
Look. Why can't OWS focus on the important stuff like the message and designating a theme song? What's with the spy vs spy Matrix crap? There shouldn't be anything to hide. OWS needs to construct a image. I would start with getting the music together that will represent the movement.
Good luck with this one. I've been asking for two days. I'm starting to believe that she actually thinks that pointing out that the CIA etc have used such tactics in the past, and could be using them today, is proof that they are. Or maybe it's just that she doesn't have any proof at all, and never will, but she wants us to believe her anyway.
You may have all the knowledge in the world about dinosaurs-be the foremost expert on the subject-but you aren't going to convince me that you've got one living in your backyard right now unless you SHOW ME.
The CIA nad FBI don't sign their initials nor do they take credit for their secret DISINFORMATION NETWORKS. What don't you understand about that. Are you thick or dumb or something?
And aliens don't let us see them because they wear their invisible space suits. They're sneeeeeeaky.
I just spewed Pepsi all over my laptop!
I'm sorry!! Hope there's no permanent damage. : )
This whole thing is the most pointless monotenous post I have ever seen. I don't have near the patience that some other people do I guess. I just went straight to the space aliens.
I gotta learn how to do that.
I guess it's that sliver of eternal optimism in me that believes that deep within even the most damaged, mentally ill, socially incapacitated among us, there's a spark of sanity, an ember of reason just waiting for a little fresh air to whoosh in and ignite it into a burning flame of semi-intelligence.
Oh who am I trying to kid? It's probably the freaking slab of devious, Pepsi addicted, red-head in me (that beats the living crap out of that sliver of optimism daily) that enjoys nothing more than watching someone eat a plateful of turds while laughing about how full of crap everyone else is.
Logical fallacy: appeal to authority
Not a logical fallacy at all, it's called empiricism - look it up.
An argument is an argument; it doesn't matter who brings it up. You must counter the argument, not the proposer. If the argument is based on flawed science and lacks empiricist proof, then you must provide proper evidence and proper counter-arguments to show this. You are assuming the proposer of the argument has not done his homework. This is not a counter-argument. If you are right, then it should be easy to back up your assumption with hard evidence.
You are using a known logical fallacy which is called an appeal to authority. You should learn about it in order to avoid it. It only weakens your position when you use fallacies instead of proper arguments. Don't use the lazy man's way out, it never leads to the truth.
Opinions are not necessarily facts. Experience and observation (empiricism) of your posts Jacqueline proves you either don't know that, or don't care. Which is why your arguments are so often invalid.
No my arguments have the full weight of documented history behind them. You "argument" is just one of a fascist scumbag who will do anything his master tells him to do, you have no regard for human rights and human beings .... you are a pig. plain and simple. bye bye piggy
I bow before the continued documentation of your regard for human rights and human beings!
awesome, while you're down there - you can eat my shit dufus.
A mindless conspiracy theory based on fear. Where is your evidence? Provide the link to one comment on these boards that was written by an 'agent' in disguise. Name some users. Back up your claims, or they are worthless.
Even if there were 'agents', so what? They can only write words. You have a brain and can either counter their arguments, or ignore them if you consider them weak. Instead, you drown your thoughts in conspiracy theories. Utterly useless. They win because they have impeded upon your logic. Use proper counter-arguments and debating tactics. They are the only tools that lead to the truth. Your dabbling in logical fallacies is pointless, and even harmful.
you've heard of google have you? go to google and type in COINTELPRO. it tells the whole story.
Iv'e Googled it. It doesn't say anything about this forum in particular. You claim there are 'agents' on these boards, so provide some names and highlight some of their comments. You are wasting everybody's time. When you see a comment you think is from an agent, then simply pose strong counter-arguments or ignore it. There is nothing else to do. You won't dismantle his arguments by using an appeal to motive. That is just a lame logical fallacy that leads to nowhere.
Hey Thrasymaque, guess what? the CIA and the FBI operate in SECRECY. Do you know what that means? They means that they infiltrate leftist movements they don't SIGN THEIR NAME to their DISINFORMATION... duh! Have you had your hear in your hole for the past 60 years. God you must be pretty dumb my friend if you don't know how the CIA operates. Keep living in a dreamland where you actually think that the CIA operates in the open, and is honest about it's operations... god you must think people are stupid.
maybe you should try a different career than being a disinformation specialist. In fact prove to me that you are not a disinfo specialist. Come on show us the proof and I will yield - since you are demanding that I prove that there are disinfo agents SWARMING ALL OVER THIS FORUM - PROVE THAT YOU ARE NOT! (watch this spook change the subject)
http://occupywallst.org/forum/how-to-defeat-trolls-and-the-establishment-in-this/#comment-469009
I don't have the burden of proof, you do. Extraordinary claims and extraordinary accusations require extraordinary proof. Does a judge incarcerate a person in a murder trial if that person cannot prove he did not commit the murder? No, he only incarcerates him if the prosecutors can prove that he did.
However, if we follow your line of thought it is quite easy for me to prove that I am not a 'disinformation agent' or some kind of 'Man in Black' like you assume. There are two ways you could look deeper into this issue:
You claim that all 'disinformation agents' of the government hide their tracks by hiding their IP. I have stated many times that I live in Bali, Indonesia. You could ask jart, the programmer of this site, to check the IPs used by Glaucon and Thrasymaque. She'll be able to tell you that I do not use a proxy server.
You seem to claim that 'agents' are tools used by right wingers to attack left wingers. Is that correct? Well, it so happens that I lean hard left on the political scale. I have said this many times. I am a French Canadian and I believe a system like Canada that implements socialist ideas like free-health care is a better system than an all out capitalist system like the United-States. I would actually like to see Canada become even more social, and that is why I have always voted for the NDP. I hate our current government, Steven Harper. His right agenda is quite scary and he seems to want to move in the direction of US.
Your position gets weaker with every post and leads to nowhere. What do you suggest people do if there are 'agents' on this forum. Do you mean they should stop to use it because you fear their minds will be corrupted with disinformation. I have a more positive approach. I believe people should learn critical thought and the scientific method. They should learn to demand proof for people's claims. This way, it doesn't matter if there are 'agents' or not. People can use sharp thinking to counter their arguments. All information can be checked. These 'agents' of which you speak cannot magically create disinformation to trick intellectuals.
There is only three possibilities, pick one. 1) You are a PAID COINTELPRO agent posing as left leaning (this is the most common technique of COINTELPRO) 2) You are not very well educated on the methodologies of the US Government in INFILTRATING and Disrupting ALL OPEN LEFTIST Groups.
Pick one. Because if you're living in a dreamworld where the CIA and FBI would never do anything like that, then it is you my friend who are either being dishonest, or you simply are NOT VERY BRIGHT.
COINTELPRO is VERY REAL my friend. And it is very definitely raining down on nearly EVERY SINGLE POST in this forum. The truth is that people who enjoy the status quo simply have no need for teh kind FRANTIC attention to forums such as these because as you assert, the OWS movement is nothing to worry about because it is inconsequential, why then is every single post attacked in what appears to be a structured and immediate and organized systematic attack. with multiple different identities using the same patterns of attacks, (drawing out, accusing of hate, demands of proof, etc etc) This does not occur naturally, especially if there is not need as is the case of those who have the statue quo on their side, they have no need to, yet the speed and organization of the attacks here says otherwise.
Nice try trying to CONvince us that you are a genuine leftist but I doubt it.
What's your third possibility? And, how should we deal with these evil 'agents'? Should we stop using the forum, or do you have a better suggestion?
no the solution is to have a person who is experienced in these matters simply moderate the group and clear out the garbage which is threatening to dis- empower and disrupt genuine discourse.
This is a serious movement my friend and this is a serious point in time, we do not have the extra energy to hamstring ourselves or the movement in long winded discussions with people who are not a part of a genuine direction forward.
And yes this is how experience works. Unless you have experience with COINTELPRO it may be difficult to imagine that the giant intelligence agencies would spend their enormous resources on disrupting open movements such as ares but i don't know hoe someone with the internet and a reasonable desire to understand the truth could not know this very real condition exists ... uh ... especially because THEY'VE ADMITTED QUITE OPENLY THAT THEY DO IT.
1) So if they have been caught doing it. (church committee on assassinations) 2) And the OPENLY ADMIT THEY ARE STILL DOING IT. 3) And they are frantically building more and more infrastructure for precisely that pujrpose (Total Information Awareness, Patriot act, Telecommunications Act, etc, etc)
Then please explain why you think it's so unrealistic that they would do it to OWS (who only spread globally on only one month of existence... hello!)
Don't expect people like me to think you have one ounce of credibility if you are making claims that CONTELPRO is not real and present here on this very forum, I have seen it for years and it's here bubba, believe me it's all over this forum.
I never said it was unrealistic that there are 'agents' here, I simply said it was useless to consider the matter without evidence. The only thing you can do is provide proper counter-arguments against their claims, indulging in conspiracy theories like you are doing solves nothing. It's a complete dead end.
You said these people use sophisticated web proxies to hide their traces, so moderators couldn't find them anyhow. I don't understand the purpose of your posts.
I'm curious. What do you know about computer programming?
Not true, we now exist in the age of the death of proof. A perfect example is the attacks of 911. There exists ZERO proof that these attacks were conducted by 19 hijackers with box cutters, no evidence whatsoever. Yet there is a mountain of evidence that it was tightly orchestrated by a rogue network of the shadow military/intelligence groups here in the united states. ANd there is thousands of very clear and damning pieces of evidence that PROVE this. However when you present the proof. The response by the intelligence agencies, their media and their government is "Show us some proof!" So we live in the age of secrecy, this is not an age of openness. And in such an environment one must infer, interpolate, extrapolate, build circumstantial evidence, etc etc to make the case. But don't expect to be able to find a memo on the letterhead of the FBI or any other of the private security forces of the billionaire oligarchy, saying "OK lets' infiltrate OWS with right wing attacks posing as leftists and causing general disruption... " etc etc.
We no longer live in a society that open, this is called a POLICE STATE, and in a police state one must operate by different methodologies.
I see it the other way around. There is ample proof it was caused by 19 hijackers, and no proof for the conspiracy theories.
Everything is open. You are free to express opinions and arguments. If someone expresses an argument here, you can counter argue their claims. The problem with the Truthers is they are providing no evidence. That's why they are mostly ignored by the academics. If you have something of worth, publish it in peer-reviewed journals. There's no use publishing it on dubious websites. You talked of empiricism earlier. You might want to check on this and how the scientific method works. Truthers have been using dubious research methods, and that is why they have nothing to show for it after ten years of 'hard work'.
I'm still wondering what your point is with all this. You provide no solution. Should we stop using the forum? What do you propose we do instead of offering strong arguments against flawed logic when we see it?
Are you retarded? I told you over and over again what the solution was, delete the posts from the FBI, NSA, CIA, Military intelligence and their subcontractors. What don't you understand about that - god you're thick.
How it that a solution? You have stated yourself it is impossible to know who these people are because they hide their IP. You haven't been able to point to one comment from an 'agent' or one user who is an 'agent'. Until you show evidence for your claim it's nothing but a lame conspiracy theory. The best thing do to is to use strong counter-arguments or keep quiet. Stop wasting everybody's time already.
You're only arguing because you're "one of them" you know. :-) Or you work for Soylent Green.....
Shhhhhhh she's being rational-"there are three possibilities....I'm only going to give you two...."
In her world everyone who disagrees with her, demands proof, extends a discussion, accuses another person of being hateful, is either mentally handicapped or a spy. Because these things apparently either do NOT occur naturally in her world OR do occur but they happen randomly, over time, in a completely unorganized way and it's always one person/identity who does it.
Everyone who agrees with her is neither of those things.
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MOST IMPORTANT
Vote!!!! Click "like" or "dislike"
[This site is proof why direct democracy does not work, the people complain about trolls but yet they don't vote!
The trolls are organized, they bring their paid buddies and they vote their own posts up, whereas the majority hasn't figure out the game yet!!]
LOL! -
Yes!!!!
Listen to this guy ppl! Vote, vote and get the trolls out!
Vote! Vote, vote!
Good Ideas
don't comment on troll posts they will go to top and feed the stuff you don' t like seeing
I no longer care. I really don't. They have a habit of putting up posts that are insulting and then whine when they get smacked. The victim card. They just want to frame the discussion. That said, if they truly believe that they can use posts that are insulting and that I am going to "behave", they are off their rocker. I don't have to. I do not have to play by their rules.
A couple of them need to remember what they said before so that they do not get caught lying.
A few more do real well as long as they stay in the realms of concepts like libertarians and their economics. Once you move into the realm of evidence they fall a part. They do not like to go there. In fact, they run from it. Tell 'em to back it up. Youtube doesn't qualify as back up. Make them demonstrate how they came to their conclusion.
While you are entitled to your own opinion, you are not entitled to your own facts. Right?
Sounds like you've had a run-in or two? Yes, I've noticed that when you apply logic/reason, your average troll will simply fall apart....I like laughing at them.... seems to make ME feel heaps better, and I dunno, I think it robs them of power somehow.... check out the bottom posts, for some classic examples and for a laugh!
Omnia vincit amor.
P.s.
Check these links out, some people have had some really cool things to say here, and I'm spreading the word!
http://occupywallst.org/forum/what-can-be-done-to-make-this-forum-better/#comment-468696
http://occupywallst.org/forum/im-here-to-listen-what-is-it-you-want-to-be-heard/
Cheers!
I've been saying this same thing to Jacqueline repeatedly. Still no proof to back up her insults and personal attacks.
Show us some comments to back up your claims. Who are these trolls of which you speak of?
Quit your crying, Thrasy.
You say these people do not provide evidence when asked. This is exactly what you are doing now.
I don't need to here. I have been through this before with you. You just need to know how this game is played. Is this a problem for you?
I don't see what's the point of knowing about this game or how it is played if you can't point out comments by 'agents' and users who are 'agents'. It's just a waste of time and forum space. What do you expect people do with this information?
I expect you to get off your ass, Thrasy. That means that when you scroll through threads like this: http://occupywallst.org/forum/us-is-so-pathetic-it-cant-afford-mail-service/
or things like this: http://occupywallst.org/forum/congratulation-you-have-successfully-wasted-americ/
or things like this http://occupywallst.org/forum/where-does-the-ows-stand-on-the-other-constitution/ you say something, correct the information or let them know that you know exactly what they are up to.
Instead of creating characters to play a little game.
and you know what the exact problem is and what is preventing the stability of it from happening that you let them know. Eh?
I don't see a problem with 'agents'. I see very few comments which contain solid arguments. Most contain logical fallacies and weakly supported points of view. When I see flawed logic I propose the best counter-arguments I can, or I keep silent. There is nothing else to do. Talking about mysterious 'agents' you cannot name is a waste of everyone's time.
Right after you logged out and logged back in as Glaucon? You really are a real piece of shit, Thrasy.
I think the net effect of supressing dissent in all it's forms here is counter-productive. Supression is what caused #OWS and #the 99% to rise up in the first place, because eventually information about what the worst of us had done to the 99% and continue doing came out. It took so long for that information to become widely known that the collapse was already underway. (the newly released information concerning our government's interest-free loan to the financial banks prior to the bail-outs of '08 leaps to mind) How can we know what might be revealed by trolls? Ignore their posts and comments if you like, but systematic supression of what they post? I say "no" to that. ~ Thunderclap
I am still to land on this issue... Because of these reasons....I think you are right, and, I think I will msg your words to a friend, who is working on this problem as we speak....LOVE your words, love your work! Omnia vincit amor!
Thanks, blazefire. When trolls write the things they do here on the #OWS Forums a little saying always comes to mind: Better to remain silent and let people think you a fool than to speak and remove all doubt! ~ Thunderclap
Thanx for your thnx!
I really think OWS should have some moderated threads where the moderator can delete the BS ---------let the BS go on the unmoderated threads. That way if people want to actually learn something here or have an intelligent discussion they can do it without having to sort thru the trolls.
Great ideas!
Thnx everyone for your input!
Play with a BOT today!
Stoopid trolls.....
Good ideas. I wonder if there is any clear way of identifying, tagging, and exposing sock puppets?
The answer to THAT particular question is yes. It takes, only two things....Time and time. They ALL reveal themselves in the end, as all people do. Stay vigilant. Question everything. Apart from that I'd say communicate! Talk! But there are some fairly obvious suspects....
Btw...re, why we're all here....
This is what I say....
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/50500650/yourtopia-your%20official%20final%20beginning.pdf
Heres what others say....
http://occupywallst.org/forum/im-here-to-listen-what-is-it-you-want-to-be-heard/#comment-464830
Heres something you could do about it all.... right now....
http://occupywallst.org/forum/something-that-you-can-do-right-now-from-where-you/
Omnia vincit amor. Per adua astra! Carpe diem! Take it! Take this life! Take it and hold it and own it! LOVE IT, this moment, like never before!
Page 20 of your dropbox link - are you saying that heirarchical structures and leadership should be eliminated? Are you saying we should eliminate government?
No....I say that the people, already are the government. It's simply that we do not currently recognise this fact. I would say that this system would replace the illusion of this government, with the reality of the people.
Our elected officials (in a larger sense - government) are voted into office by the people. Our government is by the people, for the people, of the people. I believe our government is a reflection of the people. The people are the government. We agree. There is no need to replace our current system with a different system.
To clarify and expand, No I do not think we should eliminate 'government', which is simply communal organisation. Yes I think we should eliminate leaders and all heirarchial structure.
No the current system is not reflective of the people.
Yes the government SHOULD be a reflection of the people.
I hope we agree....;)
Keep reading! I do explore all these concepts in the book further....and thanks for the feedback!
Could we continue this here (this is GREAT!....but it's the troll thread, lol!):
http://occupywallst.org/forum/im-here-to-listen-what-is-it-you-want-to-be-heard/#comment-464830
Who is 'we'? Wikipedia says this site is run by Adbusters, true or false?
Hmmmm not sure if the creators of THIS site are relevant as being more than just a part of the 'we', the 99%. There are many, many more sites, run by many different people... In fact, as I understand it my friend, know it or not, YOU are also a part, of 'us'.... welcome!
True to a certain extent. The site and domain are owned by AdBusters, but the programmer and moderators are volunteers. I'm not sure how close their ties with AdBusters are. The site is open software, so anybody can propose changes and provide pull requests to the github account.
Do You Support Wikileaks? *
Please help us petition the White House to stop Obama from imposing harsh economic sanctions against a promising young African nation whose innocence has been vindicated by Wikileaks. Your signature can really save the lives of 5 million people. Thank you.
http://occupywallst.org/forum/vindicated-by-wikileaks-but-not-freed-from-accusat/
Great! post it here too!
http://occupywallst.org/forum/im-here-to-listen-what-is-it-you-want-to-be-heard/
This is a lame function.
"-edit- And vote! Vote on all posts! And Encourage others to vote also! As soon as a post receives -4 votes it collapses, and those that receive positive votes go up the list.... so vote and get others too also!"
It enables the infiltrators (trolls) to get rid of info WITHOUT being accountable to reason.
Here is a concept I came up with in 2003 that will make it required to explain a vote when making it. When others read what is, based in fact, logical and coherent and supported, the thread gains comprehensiveness.
http://algoxy.com/poly/poll_to_post.html
I would that expect that with some practice at separating issues, a good thing, the participating public will actually settle superflous matters creating something that is actually what a wiki is supposed to be. A wiki would be that IF editors were true to the purposes of a wiki, but they are not. This concept of "Poll to Post" will create that accountability to facts and reason then preserve it whereupon a wiki can derive its product from the "Poll to Post" messager board.
The "Poll to Post" board product would remain indefinitely as a conclusion until the public decides that new knowledge or changes of conditions justifying re-discussion on the matter, where upon the wiki, if it were linked in someway, would be updated properly.
Aside from that, YES, there is a major psyps, cotintelpro action taking place all over the internet and has been for years. Recent expose of this.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/10/09/1024519/-Threats-from-the-Invisible-Industry?showAll=yes&via=blog_481394 http://politics.salon.com/2010/01/15/sunstein_2/ http://boingboing.net/2011/02/18/hbgarys-high-volume.html http://revolutionmessaging.com/2011/09/21/how-to-weed-out-astroturf-identifying-fake-public-support/ http://newsinfo.iu.edu/news/page/normal/16173.html http://veracitystew.com/2011/02/25/astroturfing-the-season-of-disinformation-video/ http://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/story/2011/04/25/cv-election-truthy-memes-twitter.html
The answer is Article 5 of the constitution, NOW! When we recognize that fact, the problems of infiltrators recedes.
Lessig power point on article V http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gpbfY-atMk
Lots of facts here about Article V. http://algoxy.com/poly/article_v_convention.html
Article V conference, Lawrence Lessig at harvard 9/25/11-other attendee video comments http://vimeo.com/31464745 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-7ikbvu0Y8
Strategy.
http://algoxy.com/ows/strategyofamerica.html
To socially define this strategy with logic I've made a poll at a forum which is dedicated to article 5. It has state-by-state forums for us to use in effort to first compel an article 5 convention, then discuss proposed amendments and ratifications as it moves forwards towards this logical preparation for proper amendment.
http://articlevconvention.org/showthread.php?15-What-initial-amendments-will-improve-and-empower-the-conditions-of-a-convention
Also, notice the ART5 following my user name. When we who seek to defend the constitution ALL use that as the tail of our username, we can identify one another in this process and more readily provide support for each others efforts in defense.
Woah....I haven't had a chance to take that all in....woah....
Check it out. Real strategy based in actual law only needing American unity which will gain complete authority over all aspects of the government as they relate to the amendments ratified.
Weaknesses in the constitution are now more evident than they were in 1900 for instance. It strengths, article 5, the ultimate form of democracy in America is its true power.
Article 5 NOW!
Understand it, get the word out. It is our first and last constitutional right.
hmmmm...I know I've mentioned this throughout these forums, however I would like to ask you also, as I've seen your posts, and think that your take on this question would be very interesting...
If this movement is global, and the corporations that face us also, then do we not need a global approach, and what would that approach be?
-Article 5 NOW!
Okay, that's out one more time. GATT and NAFTA are the global foothold within US jurisdiction and are treasonous because they usurp US law. There are some pages exemplifying how that works. Pay attention how the relationship of GATT was kept quiet in the BP gulf leak.
http://algoxy.com/
Here is the hisrtory of the basic structure of government we have cultivated in our deceived and exploited ignorance. http://algoxy.com/poly/emergency_powers_statutes.html
I think you've asked a question which is also the reason global agreements don't work. Instead, always renewing and revising making more adequate agreements between nations. Nations and states have people with interest in corporations that conduct themselves properly and as long as US media is not allowed to TOTALLY decieve, mislead and exploit, they can be kept in check.
Meaning we have to fix the media problem immediately at the onset of article 5. Here is a thread about that with a poll at a message board with state-by-state forums.
http://articlevconvention.org/showthread.php?15-What-initial-amendments-will-improve-and-empower-the-conditions-of-a-convention
Ahhhh....O.k. well in either case, it simply COULD NOT hurt. And could do a damn lot of good. So I will most certainly support you in this endeavour. I will say I am Australian, and not American, so this applies very little to me personally, except in an almost indirect way. Again though I think it is extremely positive, and I support you in it.
I would however have to disagree on the assertion that globalisation is a negative thing. I think if it were the people that had the power, and a non-heirarchial, democratic system was installed, that it could be extremely positive.
Very good mate!
Your support is appreciated despite being from another nation. At least the recognition of facts seems all present. Can't say that many Americans have a full grasp on the fact that "it simply COULD NOT hurt". I can make a good case that Americans have been conditioned over the last 30 years by media and partisan politics to fear an article 5. Such a fear is so pervasive that I've only been able to get 2 people to add "ART5" to their user name in 6 weeks here to show unconditional support for defense of the constitution.
Which is ludicrous because the protesters depend on their 1st amendment rights under the constitution, but not one overt, direct word of support for it.
Social fears control us far more than we would ever know. Such things have powerful connections to our subconscious minds.
Hmmmm, yes, I would agree completely. Especially in regards to the fear aspect of things. And I think it is more pervasive than we can know, in fact, I would state that our ignorance, has now touched everything. I do not know how, the computer I'm typing on was made, I don't know how the chair I'm sitting on was manufactured, nor where and how all the resources used to create them were extracted. Our food, our education, our water, our air, is all influenced by our ignorance of them, and humanities greatest fear has always been the unknown. We don't see cost anymore, we see price. Something is worth $15.95, not worth 0.83meters of land, and 14 man hrs. One is price, the other is cost. Our ignorance, our fear and denial is almost all encompassing now. And denial of that ignorance, denial of that fear, is something people seem to think we need, because society demands that we not challenge these things, just accept them and move on: "That's life".
I think you seek to free the truth, and I think your belief is, that such an act would cause a ripple effect, erasing that ignorance and fear, and replacing it with understanding, and wisdom.
I agree and support your endeavours in this fully.
I will throw something on the table though if I may.
It is in the best interests of the corporations who wish to see us enslaved and controlled, to see this ignorance grow, and globally, and they are global. And as such those corporations can do something, no people on this planet can. They can leave whatever nation they are in, and continue in their efforts from abroad, whilst maintaining a stranglehold on those that would see change occur.
I agree, that the truth will set us free. IMHO, we need to do this globally, and chase down our fears and ignorance with a vengence, to every nation, to every part of humanity and do it with a passion that would see the truth brought to light, lest those that would see the ignorance flourish, start again from elsewhere and return, as they have, again, and again.
I think we need to unite, and, to unite soon.
And occupy is global.
Just think about it....
Omnia vincit amor.
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We seem to agree!
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/50500650/yourtopia-your%20official%20final%20beginning.pdf
This is the method I would personally use....I'd love to see you pass it on!
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Freedom of speech should not be dependent on popularity polls. Whether you like or dislike any post has nothing to do with its relevance. By you trying to erect a system based upon the majority censoring any minority they happen to 'dislike': you create a tyranny of the masses which crushes all dissent.
If you want to get rid of trolls on this forum: make it an obligatory part of becoming a forum member that every person wishing to post here must state in the clearest possible language what their main agenda is and what their values are and what the believe in and support and what they are opposed to.
Then, the staff of this web site can study each application for acceptance into this forum and decide whether each applicant has anything of worth to contribute or not.
If any applicants attempt to lie about their true values and agenda: then this will be exposed in what they post, and if their profile does not match what they are posting: then they are posting under false colors and can be banned. For instance if a republican reactionary who supports the status quo of the top 1% tries to lie and claim they are a libertarian on their profile and starts ranting about the OW movement is doomed: every OWS supporter who reads his posts can check his profile and raise a red flag to administrators of the forum and that jerk will be ejected effectively and you will not have any more trolls of your forum.
There is nothing wrong with free speech as long as it's honest. It's the subversion of liars and the culture of dishonesty which poisons all internet forums and the entire internet practice of hiding one's true identity. Make registration into this forum as specific as possible, and all the paranoid freak terrified of being found out won't even dare to register and become a member of your forum. Make every person give their true address and name and age and telephone number in order to register... That's what the commercial world does in order to insure honesty and prevent from being scammed: why can't you do the same thing?
This forum is as useless as a Yahoo chat room.
Charge a membership fee !
"-edit2- Definition of a troll. One that displays clear disingenuous discourse. One that uses insults, and personal attacks in their arguments."
Doesn't that mean that OWS supporters/members who use insults and personal attacks in their arguments are trolls?
What if OWS supporters/members "vote" UP responses using insults and personal attacks in their arguments?
YES! Most certainly! If you attack someone personally, resort to insults, or clearly babble crap, then yeah, your being a troll! Wherever you are from! No-one should resort to such tactics.... And you will probably find that most OWS supporters insulting you ARE NOT, OWS supporters...(re the above links)....There has been much infiltration, unfortunately. People pretending to be a supporter, and then, turning troll, it's designed to scare away any support. Glad to see that in your case, it didn't work!
Terrified Recalcitrant Oppressors of Learning and Logic
Terrified Recalcitrant Oppressors of Laughter and Love
these are two definitions of troll that I devised.
Very good! You might be interested in a book which which has all 4 elements: Learning Logic Laughter and Love.
Unfortunately, the real world of modern capitalist consumers is not based upon any of these principles and truths; in fact if you walk outside your door and try to speak of these four elements to anyone; nobody will listen to you and nobody will want to talk to you because the real world is devoid of these elements.
well, thank you turak. you know, i still check in on your shit talking. the mouth on you is one of the most free spirited voices on this forum. fuck all the critics. be yourself.
I meant it about the book. You're one of the few people who would appreciate it.
that's not true. everyone of my family members would enjoy a book about the four L's of humanity. when you take the bad with the good, life is not that bad. we overreact a little, over consume a lot, but over simplification is our greatest weakness.
Wrong. The greatest wisdom on earth is the ability to simplify complex things down so we can understand how the Universe works.. Simplification is your greatest strength: not your greatest weakness. Maybe I was wrong: maybe you don't understand that what you wrote was both wise and true.
well, I am speaking of us as a society. i know over simplifying works well for me, but you can over simplify yourself out of true understanding. take our political discourse, they use use simple concepts, but over think those concepts right out of understanding. one point: poor people are lazy that is why they are poor. that is over simplification.
You are a very illogical child; which is no surprise, seeing as you were born inside an illogical culture and system which avoids all true logic. One example of how illogical you are is how you jump away from focusing on yourself and your own family: to a generalized statement about all the people in the world... as if everyone in the world is exactly like your family, and everyone over-consumes and everyone overreacts. That is called an automatic defense tactic used to avoid looking at yourself and your own family.
You are trying to hide from facing the faults which your family and you are guilty of, by lumping yourself into a huge mass of other people which you claim or assume are just as guilty as you are of these sins. If you want to grow up to become an honest decent human being: learn to catch your own denials and evasions.
I see what you mean, you're correct.
However... what I am speaking of is simplification that is logical: not simplification that is illogical. When you take the actual dynamics of energy in the Universe: you can simplify their characteristics down to a few Universal principles which have no exceptions.
For instance: one universal characteristic of all energy in the Universe is that it avoids hitting, hurting, damaging any other energy as much as possible. There are no exceptions to this Universal aspect of Energy. Whether it is on the sub-atomic levels of electrons, or on the galactic level of galaxies, or on the level of the earth's surface...Collisions are almost non-existent and very rare. Entire galaxies pass through each other without one star colliding into another star. Zillions of electrons and atoms whizz around each other, and only one out of a nearly infinite number of evasions does any one of them ever hit another. The same is true for nearly all living creatures on earth. They avoid contact with each other as much as possible. Throughout the entire list of millions of species: physical violence between any of them is so rare it is almost non-existent. Modern films have pulled out the few rare examples of violence between living creatures, while not showing you the other side of the coin: which is the huge majority of time and the huge vast majority of non-violent behavior in all insects, reptiles, birds, mammals. The reason for this misrepresentation of how Nature functions and how the Universe actually works is because artificial industrialized human civilization is the most evil, the most insane physically violent killing and destructive force which is killing and damaging living trees, plants, grasses, seeds, bacteria, worms, earth, roots, etc that has ever been invented by this misdirected species of naked apes. Civilization projects itself ONTO the natural world. What it portrays, what it sees, is what it itself actually IS. Because of this, it is not logical. Humans NEVER look at themselves and NEVER ask themselves why they are committing such insane acts of evil. You're guilty of the same hypocrisy also: you talk about a huge non-existent mass of people: but you NEVER question yourself, or your own behavior and actions and thoughts critically. You never look at yourself.
This is a LOGICAL simplification of the actual facts which is not illogical. All energy in the Universe avoids touching or hurting other energy as much as possible... in the rare exceptions where energy is forced into a situation where it cannot avoid a direct collision, it STILL avoids damaging itself by the defense tactic of coming apart into smaller forms of Energy. Just like you freak out and come apart and start acting and thinking and speaking and behaving irrationally and deflecting away from the true issues whenever you are faced with a blunt logical truth which threatens to destroy all of the misconceptions which you have been programmed into believing.
The Intelligent Avoidance of all Energy from hurting itself by direct collision is Universal. There are no exceptions to it. Even when particle accelerators accelerate sub atomic particles artificially and unnaturally up to speeds they are not used to, and thus cannot control themselves as they do under normal speeds... and are smashed as hard as possible against each other sub-atomic particles: rather than damage each other, they instantly dissolve into even smaller forms of radiation energy to keep from being harmed and from harming other Energy. When they are not artificially speeded up, they almost never collide with each other. In fact the rarity of their collisions are so mathematically small it cannot be computed.
Particle accelerators are one of the most insane examples of the civilized blind urge of civilized humans to smash and destroy everything they touch.
Simplified generalizations are only useful if they are based upon the actual facts and the logic being used is correct.
Wow, you gave me a lot to think about. I knew there was a reason why I liked your attitude. Only some one with real knowledge could come off as belligerent as you. Now I 'm not only impressed with your self confidence but with your understanding, and I take your criticism and question myself.
It sounds like you have a good family that likes to read books. That's how I started learning more about the world we live in.. I became a bookworm in grade three and I also played sports and played outside. By grade four, I was taking out books from the school library, by grade five I was going to the public library and reading books written for adults, by grade six I was going to the bookstore and buying my own paperbacks, by grade eight I was bicycling all the way across the city to a 2nd hand bookstore to buy used paperbacks for 25 cents and returning them the next week and getting paid 10 cents for each paperback I had bought for 25 cents, and buying ten more every week... Which ended up costing me only 15 cents a book. $1.50 for ten paperbacks; much more enjoyable a pastime than watching TV.
This was back in the 1950's before Elvis, Before the Beatles, Before TV became widespread. We didn't get a TV until I was in high school. And I learned one thing: that is if you want to develop your potential as a human being: you must balance the mental with the physical: socially as part of a larger group and as an single individual. The more different things you learn to do, the more well-rounded you become. Take care. Indrek
Are you talking about people like Jacqueline? Do you have information that she is an 'agent provocateur'?
NO! I make NO judgements...as you so clearly have. I said what I said. And have no need to repeat myself.
You seemed to be making a judgment your previous comment. That's why I asked. I wondered if you had any examples for your claims.
One way to identify pro-elite right-wingers is by how they demonize the Federal Reserve. This has been the major point of co-opting in OWS.
The "END THE FED" movement is supported by violent racists and is a black-eye for OWS.
http://occupywallst.org/forum/end-the-fed-movement-has-ties-to-domestic-terroris/
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Do You Support Wikileaks? *
Please help us petition the White House to stop President Barck Obama from imposing harsh economic sanctions against a promising young African nation whose innocence has been proven by secret US embassy cables released by Wikileaks. Your signature can really save the lives of 5 million people. Thank you.
http://occupywallst.org/forum/vindicated-by-wikileaks-but-not-freed-from-accusat/
If you are claiming to start a revolution, then you had better be prepared for "trolls" or, rather, devils advocates who are going to either shoot your ideas down or seriously question where you are going. Revolutions sometimes get nasty
I would not define anyone that did either of those things as 'trolls', misguided maybe (lol) but not 'trolls'.... No I would argue that a 'troll', is one that actually has no real input to offer, and, is simply existing to attack and insult people here. I would say that the vast majority of 'trolls' are simply angry, educated fools.... but, a few are less than that, or more, depending. In either case, and any case, I would still advise all of the above! Thnx for the input, and I agree entirely with your point!
http://www.trollfest.com/
anarchy baby !!
Much more than trolls. It's a program against change.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/10/09/1024519/-Threats-from-the-Invisible-Industry?showAll=yes&via=blog_481394 http://politics.salon.com/2010/01/15/sunstein_2/ http://boingboing.net/2011/02/18/hbgarys-high-volume.html http://revolutionmessaging.com/2011/09/21/how-to-weed-out-astroturf-identifying-fake-public-support/ http://newsinfo.iu.edu/news/page/normal/16173.html http://veracitystew.com/2011/02/25/astroturfing-the-season-of-disinformation-video/ http://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/story/2011/04/25/cv-election-truthy-memes-twitter.html
I love the trolls. I'm a troll too. except I'm one the ones that has a shiny, glimmering gem for my belly button. The whole point of this movement is to create awareness,and set the stage for debate. And anyone who denounces the movement only serves to fuel the fire. Why do you think Obama is doing nothing to publicly address these grievances? I thought I learned in school that a president has the power to VETO silly circus laws.
Lower taxes.
O.k...... an idea! Soooo... why do you think that lowering taxes will be enough?
http://occupywallst.org/forum/im-here-to-listen-what-is-it-you-want-to-be-heard/
You want to take on the WORLD and you are babies afraid of some comments from "trolls" Grow up you big babies. The world is tough and your scared of little ole us.
Hehehehe..... thx for giving me a chance to make an example. See now when I reply to this...er...ahem, person, I will bring THIS thread back to the top! Which in this case, is great! Thx anonymous troll! However, should this thread be an 'offensive' thread controlled by 'dunkidonut2' for example, I would PM him, to try to engage, should I think that there might be a point to it... Or just to let off some steam! eg. YOUR A FOOOL! hahahahaha!!! Great one to PM to trolls.... Makes me feel great, give it a try if you doubt me! Hmmm maybe I'll PM Dunkidonut2, right now.....hehehehe
No, thank YOU, for allowing me to post and bring MY comments back to the top. You succeeded in letting people hear more from those of us that dont agree. hehehehehehehe. You should be rewarded for allowing us trolls to talk more. I will repeat. What are OWS people afraid of when an opposition makes comments? What could you possibly be afraid of? Maybe people will find out how lame this little game is? Again, thanks. Your the MANNNNnnnnnnnnn.
Ahhhhhh a troll with an intellect! Your right! Your comment, this example, should receive prime position!
LOL
Ahhhhh-hahahahahahahaha!!! YOUR A FOOL! hahahahaha
Btw, for the record... I'm not AFRAID. I'm pro-active.
This is what blazefire posted below. Notice he says to not feed the troll but I have been very succesful in him failing to follow his own RULES. Good job pal. Now who is the idiot?
1.Don't feed the trolls! - If a thread or the creator of the thread is saying offensive things, or being offensive - DON'T comment!
Hey, agains thanks for allowing me to say that OWS is not working. It is a bunch of lazy whining hippies in tents. 200 people total. Thanks, I'm going to the front row thanks to blazefire and his girl friend TIOUAISE.
Hey gang. Thanks to blazefire, the trolls are going to comment more and more. You should thank him. He is a very bright young man. This went back to the top thanks to blazefire. Good job.
Heeeee-hehehehehehe.... (Said in good imitation of David Attenborough) Observe the common troll, and how, when provoked will resort to all sorts of insults and threats. Watch how he twists and turns as logic and reason is applied. Observe how, through simple denial, a troll may live in complete ignorance to the world around him.
HAHAHAHA- did I mention, that you're a fool?
Again, I want to thank blazefire for keeping MEEEEEEEE at the top of the list. He cant even follow his own rules and then blames me. Hey,,, I'm on top,,,, again. I think Im winning,,, no,,,,, I know I'm winning because he keeps replying. Watch this folks. "Hey, blazefire, your shoes are untied." Notice,,, he MUST reply to that fake message. I bet he doesnt even own shoes and when he looks down at his bare feet he will feel soooooooooo stupid. Just watch,, he WILLLLLLLL reply. Watch. And,,, he keeps sending me private love letters. I think he is gay without shoes. But, once again, thanks to him not following his own rules, Im at the top again. hehehehehe,,, or HAHHAHAHA, which ever you want to use.
.....Watch him, as he slowly, verbally, screws himself into tighter and tighter knots, which no amount of insight could possibly drag them out of... observe how they react when poked or prodded....
I think we should lower taxes. We need a smaller government. People need to work and not depend on government. More corporations and bankers. (thanks blazefire for allowing me to chat)
Woah! Was that.... a.... thought? NO! Did it hurt? See those kinds of things I WILL respond to.... because they are legitimate. Insults are just dumb, and will get you a label of troll, disagreement won't. Disagree with whoever you like, whenever you like and as much as you like, but personal attacks, are just really pointing out that you actually have no idea at all.... Keep to ideas, stick with opinions, stay humble, and no-one will call you a troll again, even IF you disagree....
And as to the actual ideas..... I think you're on the right track...
Notice how he FEEEDDDDS the troll and not smart enough to know he is doing it.
hahahahahahahaha!!!!
Well, well, "DunkiDonut2", what do we have here? A C O N F E S S E D - T R O L L !!!
To understand WHAT MAKES A TROLL TICK - AND have a chuckle while you're at it - go to:
http://occupywallst.org/forum/how-trolls-think-trollosophy-exposed/
TIOUAISE, thanks for another opportunity to go to the top of the list. You and blazefire must be dating.
Another Troll Slain!
http://occupywallst.org/forum/what-would-post-ows-uptopia-look-like-in-your-mind/#comment-470186
http://occupywallst.org/forum/what-would-post-ows-uptopia-look-like-in-your-mind/#comment-470268
http://occupywallst.org/forum/what-would-post-ows-uptopia-look-like-in-your-mind/#comment-470385
Protesting the Protesters. Occupying the Occupiers. Exercising the exact same rights OWS says it is exercising. MIllions and millions of people do not want to hear OWS' crap, but OWS is insistent that it has the right to use the people's mic to spread its message. Everyone else has the same exact right. That's America :>)
You have every right! Omnia vincit amor.
I haven't seen a single thread which I would seriously characterize as "good." Even people with good ideas who say they support OWS don't seem to have any idea what OWS is about. More often than not they have never been to an occupation or a GA and I've never seen a practical strategy for how to move them forward on even the best proposed plans.
Perhaps that is by design. Patience, my friend. ~ Thunderclap
Nobody is more patient than I am. I personally happen to think that it will take more than years or decades or even several lifetimes to build the kind of society I envision. I suspect it will take several centuries. That said, it is still the case that from what I've seen most of the people on this forum who say that they support OWS don't seem to really know what it's about. They tend not to take the rhetoric about revolution seriously and view it as hyperbole. Worse, they are full of suggestions about what OWS should do, some good, some bad, some indifferent, but I have yet to see a single one of these suggestions accompanied by any kind of strategic plan outlining exactly how to get OWS to actually implement the suggestions put forward.
I would also like to draw your attention to the following sites....
http://www.occupytogether.org/discuss/#/discussions/p2
http://www.nycga.net/
........ more results, more discourse, more moderation, less trolls!
I am not a troll. I am 68 years old and I have been active in left wing social movements since 1964. I was at Zuccotti Park on day one and I've been a part time occupier ever since, part time only because I have medical issues that need attending.
That said, I get the impression from this forum that even most people on this forum who claim to support OWS have never been to an occupation or GA and seem to be pretty clueless as to exactly what OWS is about. I think 24 hours at any occupation would change that for most people and be a real life changing experience. What leads me to believe that few people on this forum really understand OWS is that while there are many, many suggestions about what OWS should do, some good, some bad, some indifferent, I have yet to see a single suggestion that specifically outlined exactly how to get OWS to do what the suggester thought it so important that OWS do. Very few people on this forum seem to have any conception at all of what the decision making mechanisms in OWS are.
I'm not saying you're a troll! I apologise if that is what you think! I must say though that you've definately got a point about many people not truly understanding, I am one of them. I have not as yet been to a GA. I am in Australia, and I live far from Melb, the closest protest to me....are you saying this means I should be excluded? Or that my voice is less, because of a simple problem of logistics? I have been spending 12-14 hrs a day online, negating my career, my life, my everything, so as to further this movement. I have written a BOOK on what I want, and how to get there. And I will not stop.
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/50500650/yourtopia-your%20official%20final%20beginning.pdf
Here is something a little simpler, and more recent, that I have done....
http://occupywallst.org/forum/something-that-you-can-do-right-now-from-where-you/
Otherwise, I have simply been listening, and thinking, and learning... all positive things I would say, as there is simply so much to learn.... would you not agree? I'm going to be certain to make the journey to Melbourne, to attend a GA, and even stay overnight, or longer, in the mean time I will continue, what I am doing! I also hope there are many more like me...Omnia vincit amor.
Btw. THANKS!!!.... regardless of anything else, thank-you for being a voice...;)....I've simply LOVED most of your posts.....
I think you are in a situation that would be fairly unusual for most Ameicans, though not all. That is, I expect that most Americans are probably within half a days drive of some occupation somewhere. I can see that those who aren't are in a difficult position. People in those situations often ask what they can do. Frankly, I think sending money is a cop out. If you are not near a GA. Study them. Read about them. Watch them streaming on line. Then get a few of your friends together and organize a GA in your community. Start a website. People will come. If you are still having trouble, raise enough money to bring an experienced person from an occupation to your community to help you get your GA rolling. IMHO that is the best way to help the movement.
In other words....pretty much what I'm doing...lol
Please do leave a thnx on that thread above! I think it would really help.... and in all seriousness, I would really love your appraisal of that pdf too.... I am convinced I am on too something...and am finding it very difficult to get the msg heard....I know, I know, lol, I'm not the only one! That's one of the reasons I'd LOVE your appraisal, lol!
Then how would you characterise these...?
http://occupywallst.org/forum/im-here-to-listen-what-is-it-you-want-to-be-heard/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/what-can-be-done-to-make-this-forum-better/#comment-468696
http://occupywallst.org/forum/global-problem-can-ows-rise-to-the-global-stage-an/#comment-468773
I think you will find much information there that will (hopefully) be more to your liking.... otherwise create your own! And discuss this very problem. Btw I've seen many of your posts before, and I LOVE your insight....keep up the good work!
British are crafty to make the people paranoid. Use all the tools until elements inside them defect to the movement.
what do you mean?
This article you linked I checked and noticed that it is in the "Technology" section and somehow unbiased. But, generally speaking, British establishment for two centuries has been living next door to France revolution and then Soviet revolution, while correctly according to Marx’s the revolution should first happen in Britain. British establishment is skilled in snatching any movement. First they have hacks and other paid agents such as the trade union leaders and left-pretending people. They become parallel with your movement. When you shout then they start to shout with you. Then they ask you to shout with a lower voice until you get to a point that you only whisper with closed lips. Then they convince you that you should go to your home and whisper there. Then they call you on the phone asking you to whisper under a duvet and wait, because the leaders are signing a win-win deal with the government. Last week strike which was unprecedented from 1926 in Britain ended to further talks of trade union leaders with the government for a negotiation. These talks started in 1912 and has not reached to a conclusion yet. Sum up: they snatch any movement and convert it into a useless negotiation.
o.k......so....the connection? Soz, if I'm being a mite slow.... but this movement is global right? Whether or not such an attempt was successful....
No Sir, this movement is not global, imho. If you say it is global, then it is similar to assertion of Bolsheviks when they believed Russia could become the first communist country. It became defeated since according to Marx’s a society must reach to a point that by inner forces of class conflict converts to a communist society not by joining any gratuitous rebel. US is the most advanced technological society ever with enough built-in mechanism to enter into a new phase of structure. No society in the world can walk in its pace to join to the movement that we are witnessing. Others only can pray for a good outcome for this movement. US establishment increasingly commits to erroneous reactions to the realities on the ground in one side, and in the other side people of the US devising new ways of counter-attacking demonic plots of the establishment.
Hmmmmm....
I would disagree....humbly....with the assertion that this movement is not global......with facts of course!
Check these links out....
http://occupywallst.org/forum/something-that-you-can-do-right-now-from-where-you/
Have a look at where in the 'globe', occupy is.....(I would table, that no other human enterprise has spread as far and wide, as fast)
And, further, it continues to grow, and if I may make an assumption (based only on personal observation), exponentially so...ON the global platform.
Anyhooo....THIS is great conversation! BUT we're in a 'troll' thread! Can we move it here...
http://occupywallst.org/forum/im-here-to-listen-what-is-it-you-want-to-be-heard/
And THX! Thx for your words! Thnx for giving your mind to the community!
This also has mirrored in the requested link.
Sir, What you mention as global uprising divides in two categories: first category are sympathisers of US OWS; second have genuine problems that on surface looks like crisis in the US. Most powerful one in Spain was swept under the carpet by recent election and bringing the right wing which is more loyal to economic policies schemed by Wall Street. Australia for the reasons, quite difficult for me to interpret, shows stronger similarity of opinion to the OWS than other places. Greeks with such a catastrophe have fallen to the idea that a lot of money will be delivered to their homes. They believe this is the meaning of bail-out. This happened in Bolsheviks revolution. When guns became silent, many were waiting for their monthly pay.
Frequently I have used a Marxist context. This does not mean that I am a Marxist or I am not. I believe that, still, end of this tunnel cannot be seen and I hope that a good novel outcome could be harvested. Germany before 1933 was full of debates and intellectualism. You could not have a cup of coffee outdoor without loads of exchange of ideas with many strangers around you. Streets were full of poets, artists, philosophers. Meanwhile, Nazi's were busy giving free hot soups to many unemployed, recruiting the most favourable thugs among them for their future operation. Were did they get the money? Those poets and philosophers had no clue and no attention. This is one outcome. Second outcome was Franklin Roosevelt. though somehow a conspiracy theory, but it is believed that he also had plans to remain the life-time president as he remained. US could arrange for new election in 1940 as it was not in any extra-ordinary condition of war, yet. You know the story of tents and bonus marchers happened before he comes to office.
This problem has a solution for other nations: they can die or eat each other or be occupied by the US, but for the US it has not solution. US has used its voucher before the second world war and during that and after it.; has postponed the crisis by frequent wars. Out there they do not have anything left not owned by the US. All of them has queued politely at the gate to receive orders with their cheap labour to produce cheap products with high standards for consumption of people of the US. If US should re-commission its factories, Wall Street will accept on the condition that the US workers wages be less than or equal to cheapest labour available out there. Otherwise we are going to have bankruptcy again. Hence, US retail should go and give orders to Somalia until their workers get to the same level as the US workers. This happened to Japan. Japan produced cheap labour until their people reached to the level of Americans. In 1985 each dollar was 350 yens. Now it is 70 yens. Then it came Taiwan and South Korea; then China. Now they are outsourcing to India. Who is next? Is the US next in queue to produce for the US, like a vacuum cleaner that vacuums itself until it disappears? Is there a robot up there that become confused and pulls the self-destruction trigger? The uniqueness of the US in this movement as I advertised is due to the fact that the US is the only customer. Others are waiters. I have many stories to tell but I curtail this here.
I guess everybody forgot what they are hear for and have decided to attack each other. FREE SPEECH FOR THE DUMB. I be the bankers are laughing now.
The bankers are laughing because "END THE FED" libertarians have used a red herring to infiltrate OWS and promote their interests.
"END THE FED" is a right-wing extremist idea which is promoted by racists and domestic terrorists.
http://occupywallst.org/forum/end-the-fed-movement-has-ties-to-domestic-terroris/
The trolls on this site are easily identified. They are the ones calling others trolls. Only trolls use such lame ad hominem techniques while debating.
Your a troll
I provide arguments, not ad hominem or other logical fallacies. If you feel this is trollish, then you don't understand what a troll is. Your accusation is useless. It is a lame ad hominem and does not further the discussion. It's a waste of time. (You're a troll, not your a troll)
Wow really missed the sarcasm on that one, didn't you, no humor whatsoever. Another elitist leftist prick, you guys are a dime a dozen.
Care for a cactus button? We could have a tea party in your honor.
Got me there clever one. I went to Harvard too.
Come on man. I know there is a Hipster in there somewhere. :)
Liar. You provide endless streams of cartoons and photos of what's her name from Alaska.
I'm with this guy. If you want a site where everyone agrees, there's a problem. If you can't face real question, we are called naive, or "unaware", or (my personal fav) brainwashed. You are brainwashed we sit in our houses while you lose yours. We go to work every day and make money while you sit in a park, losing the jobs you claim to fight for. So, in fact you are helping. The more that join, the more jobs open up. Now exactly is trolling with a mentality like that?? We fight the rich by taking their money. We save it to maybe open our own business one day. But then sitting in the cold, getting arrested, watching other peoples KIDS run around areas with shit, trash and who knows what thrown around is really killing the system, huh. Nobody cares anymore. Unless it's a blurb about the cops doing their job on the news. So what is the point to all of this?? Answer me in a way that doesn't include paralleling ANY other moment in history. No black movement, ghandi shit, no women's sufferage. I don't wanna hear about the evil banks, I wanna hear about what exactly your people are actively doing to help. Squatting in a foreclosed house does nothing, it's selfish. You doing that because it's getting cold out. We see through that. But now I'll be branded a troll because I have a clear mind on the situation, like some others on this site.
I have not brandished you! Or anyone else! Just to be clear, I would only give a label like that, to someone who is disingenuous, and resorts to insults....see bottom of this thread for some good examples.... Should you be simply disagreeable, or have issues, you will have no issues with me! Do you have ideas to table? Are you open to debate and critique? Can you with-hold insults and personal attacks?
Then welcome! Come discourse and debate, discuss and deliver! Delve into the abyss and ne'er come back!
Omnia vincit amor.
Thank you. We both know that people on both ends sling a lot of mud without unbiased fact, though. If you are with these "occupy" people, they need more like you. Us "normals'' would be more receptive to what you have to say
Ahhhhh it sounds like you have been the VICTIM of trolls my friend! REAL occupiers have no need to fall back on insults/offensive behaviour....theres too much logic and evidence to back 'us' up! Check the top links I put on this page..... I think you have been another victim of psyops my friend...In the mean time check out these links...
http://occupywallst.org/forum/what-can-be-done-to-make-this-forum-better/#comment-468696
http://occupywallst.org/forum/im-here-to-listen-what-is-it-you-want-to-be-heard/
Some good stuff...with few trolls!
I sit in a park all day? You accuse of things I do not even do. I never protested for Occupy. I haven't even laid a foot in US in the last 10 years. The only thing you do is make assumptions and dream they will lead you to the truth. My point is conspiracy theories are lame and confuse righteous thought. They lead to nowhere and only increase the lies. You have demonstrated this well with your post. You drown your arguments in assumptions. For what? You can't build proper arguments on top of assumptions, and you can't build proper discourse on top of bad arguments. Stop using logical fallacies. They weaken your case if there ever was one.
Again... I really think you should look into the definition OF conspiracy theory.... THEN talk a little more about logic..... Your making yourself look silly.
I know very well what conspiracy theories mean, and you are the one coming off as looking silly because you only use logical fallacies to defend your position. Where is your honor? Debate properly, or don't bother at all.
I stick to my definition and disagreement! Soz ;)!
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/conspiracy+theory
All you are doing is debating DIFFERENT conspiracy theories. YOU were not there. Neither was I. We do not have footage detailing every second that led up to every second of that event. All ANYONE has is theory. To say you hold some sort of exclusive knowledge is silly. I make no such claim.
I never said I held exclusive knowledge. I said it's pointless to use a conspiracy theory in the attempt to dismantle another. You are just adding more lies. If your friends had claims of worth, they would have been published in peer-reviewed journals. Conspiracy theorists don't participate in the scientific dialogue because they are not doing science.
"You are just adding more lies."
What? lol, I just defined something! Provided the dictionary reference! Lies? Hahahaha....like I said, you're just making yourself look silly, or was THAT the lie?
"Conspiracy theorists don't participate in the scientific dialogue because they are not doing science."
Then why aren't you pissed with the government, for wasting it's time and resources on a conspiracy theory, rather than 'science'?
"I never said I held exclusive knowledge."
Yet you seem to have a different definition of 'conspiracy theory' than the dictionary.....
I stick to my definition and disagreement! Soz ;)!
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/conspiracy+theory
The government is not wasting time on this, you are.
If Truthers have any real science on their hands, then let them publish their articles in peer-reviewed journals. Until then, they are useless. Scientists participate in the scientific dialogue. These guys are nowhere in sight, they just create ugly webpage with bad graphics and spend their time uploading dubious videos to youTube. I even see many Truthers websites which publish known lies which have been debunked 8 years ago. It's a lame game.
Some science:
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/conspiracy+theory
In fact, it's a DICTIONARY! Look it up and learn something....or keep babbling crap.... your choice!
Yes, indeed. From your own link.
The key word here is belief. It's like a religion, not like science.
(That's the most serious definition there. From the Collins dictionary.)
Here, from the best English dictionary the Oxford:
Again, a belief.
Would you like me to quote some scholars on their take on conspiracy theories. Are you courageous enough for that? It would absolutely dismantle your position.
Hmmmm...well I scanned through everything, I'll be honest, I didn't bother with the link, as, I have read most of that stuff before! And It's mostly correct!
Doesn't change the fact that YOU don't and can't know, either way. Doesn't change the fact that the government supports a conspiracy theory (of a different nature). And it CERTAINLY doesn't change the fact that I personally don't really care! You will note that in not one of my posts, not one, is there any support for either side at all...that's because that rubbish belongs somewhere else and really doesn't interest me.
"You are just adding more lies. If your friends had claims of worth, they would have been published in peer-reviewed journals."
Who's friends? What lies? Your just upset that I'm right!
p.s. Now I'M done, cause I'm tired of your disingenuous crap. Your not here to add..... your here to remove.... your in the right thread though!
Wahoooo! We have reason! So the U.S.A. 'believes' Al-quaida to be responsible, AND it has been denied....hence it is a conspiracy theory. They have as little/as much 'science' as anyone else, AND YOU and I are too far removed to ever KNOW. So....... all we have is belief, and theory. And it is a conspiracy. Because people have conspired.
And YES, 'belief'. Because NO-ONE, EXCEPT those that conspire can ever really KNOW, all anyone else can do is look at the surrounding circumstances and accounts. So the government themselves have only theory, only belief.
Ergo, all you are doing is debating DIFFERING conspiracy theories....
Yours is simply more widely accepted, and,'believed'.
You can know if you make a serious inquiry and provide evidence for your claims. Again, you cannot fight a conspiracy theory with another one. Truthers are wasting their time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9/11_conspiracy_theories#Cover-up_allegations
Read the criticism on that page. It will provide you with some sources you can check for more details. I'm done. If you want to believe in fairy tales, it's up to you.
Critics of these conspiracy theories say they are a form of conspiracism common throughout history after a traumatic event in which conspiracy theories emerge as a mythic form of explanation.[264] A related criticism addresses the form of research on which the theories are based.
Thomas W. Eagar, an engineering professor at MIT, suggested they "use the 'reverse scientific method'. They determine what happened, throw out all the data that doesn't fit their conclusion, and then hail their findings as the only possible conclusion." Eagar's criticisms also exemplify a common stance that the theories are best ignored. "I've told people that if the argument gets too mainstream, I'll engage in the debate." According to him, this happened when Steve Jones, a physics professor at Brigham Young University, took up the issue.[265]
Michael Shermer, writing in Scientific American, said: "The mistaken belief that a handful of unexplained anomalies can undermine a well-established theory lies at the heart of all conspiratorial thinking. All the evidence for a 9/11 conspiracy falls under the rubric of this fallacy. Such notions are easily refuted by noting that scientific theories are not built on single facts alone but on a convergence of evidence assembled from multiple lines of inquiry."[266]
Scientific American,[266] Popular Mechanics,[267] and The Skeptic's Dictionary[268] have published articles that rebut various 9/11 conspiracy theories. Popular Mechanics has published a book entitled Debunking 9/11 Myths that expands upon the research first presented in the article.[269] In the foreword for the book Senator John McCain wrote that blaming the U.S. government for the events "mars the memories of all those lost on that day" and "exploits the public's anger and sadness. It shakes Americans' faith in their government at a time when that faith is already near an all-time low. It trafficks in ugly, unfounded accusations of extraordinary evil against fellow Americans."[270] Der Spiegel dismissed 9/11 conspiracy theories as a "panoply of the absurd", stating "as diverse as these theories and their adherents may be, they share a basic thought pattern: great tragedies must have great reasons."[271]
Journalist Matt Taibbi, in his book The Great Derangement, discusses 9/11 conspiracy theories as symptomatic of what he calls the "derangement" of American society; a disconnection from reality due to widespread "disgust with our political system".[199] Drawing a parallel with the Charismatic movement, he argues that both "chose to battle bugbears that were completely idiotic, fanciful, and imaginary," instead of taking control of their own lives.[199] While critical, Taibbi explains that 9/11 conspiracy theories are different from "Clinton-era black-helicopter paranoia", and constitute more than "a small, scattered group of nutcases [...] they really were, just as they claim to be, almost everyone you meet."[199]
Historian Kenneth J. Dillon argues that 9/11 conspiracy theories represent an overly easy target for skeptics and that their criticisms obfuscate the underlying issue of what actually happened if there was not a conspiracy. He suggests that the answer is criminal negligence on the part of the president and vice president, who were repeatedly warned, followed by a cover-up conspiracy after 9/11.[272] This was expanded upon by columnist Matt Mankelow writing for the online edition of the British Socialist Worker. He concludes that 9/11 truthers while "desperately trying to legitimately question a version of events" end up playing into the hands of the neoconservatives they are trying to take down by creating a diversion. Mankelow noted that this has irritated many people who are politically left wing.[273]
David Aaronovitch, a columnist for The Times, in his book entitled Voodoo Histories: The Role of the Conspiracy Theory in Shaping Modern History that was published in May 2009, claimed that the theories strain credulity.[78] Aaronovitch also charged that 9/11 conspiracy theorists have exaggerated the expertise of those supporting their theories, and noted that 9/11 conspiracy theorists including David Ray Griffin cross cite each other.[274] Harvard Law professor Cass Sunstein co-authored a 2009 paper which used 9/11 truthers and others as an examples of people who suffer from “crippled epistemologies,” to public trust and the political system. He wrote that "They do not merely undermine democratic debate”,“In extreme cases, they create or fuel violence. If government can dispel such theories, it should do so.”[39]
In June 2011 the Royal Institute of British Architects was criticized for hosting a lecture by Richard Gage president of Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth. Rick Bell, the director of the American Institute of Architects New York chapter, who was a witness to the 9/11 attacks, said that “no amount of money” would persuade him to allow the group to talk at his headquarters and stated that Gage lacks credibility among the professional community. Eugine Kohn, former spokesperson for the American Institute of Architects, said Gage's theories were "ridiculous", "There were no explosives planted”, and “The buildings were definitely brought down by the planes". The decision to host the event was also criticized by the former president of the Royal Institute of British Architects and the founding president of the American Institute of Architects United Kingdom chapter. The Royal Institute of British Architects released a statement saying the perception that the group endorses events held in its buildings is "regrettable", and said they would review policy on "private hire" of its buildings.[275] Anthony Summers and Robbyn Swan offer scathing criticism of many of the above theories The Eleventh Day, their 2011 investigation of the attacks.[276]
U.S. representative Peter T. King chairmen of the House Homeland Security Committee said 9/11 conspiracy theorists "trivialize" the "most tragic event to affect the United States." and that "People making these claims are disgraceful, and they should be ashamed of themselves"
I was saying I was with you (I was the one who liked your comment). I wasn't claiming YOU sat in a park. I think these people are a bunch of stupid kids and irresponsible adults, who are mad at a system that has catered to them for far too long. They grew up being told everyone is entitled to everything, including in this case, money. They think everyone else is either disillusioned like they are and thinking people like you and I are "corporate robots" or stupid, when they are stupid robots.
Thats not true, and, it's rather inflamatory in and of itself.
" I think these people are a bunch of stupid kids and irresponsible adults, who are mad at a system that has catered to them for far too long."
You have not met me, and I am part of this movement. This is the grossest form of generalisation.
"They think everyone else is either disillusioned like they are and thinking people like you and I are "corporate robots" or stupid, when they are stupid robots."
How can you say that? I have never disagreed with your disagreement. And again, I AM part of this movement. It is another gross generalisation.
Do you have a point? Or are you just here to insult people? Cause that would make you a troll...Are you a troll?
Flood all conspiracy threads with a long list of images. If you see such long lists, vote them up. Once flooded, leave the thread alone to die. This ridicules the lazy, lame, and illogical conspiracy theorists who fail to respect the forum rules. It also makes them furious which is also quite funny. You'll enjoy their lame comebacks. I usually do this when I'm a bit tired and in need of some quality entertainment to spark myself back to life. Sometimes, a coffee just isn't enough.
@example: http://occupywallst.org/forum/cia-insider-susan-lindauer-911-was-supervised-by-t/
Well I guess according to your babble and rationalizations one should not believe anything unless there absolute proof. Is there absolute proof that the towers could come down on their own foot print. No. Is there a valid reason that building #7 would come down at all. No. And it was not even mentioned in the 911 report.
Tell me Thrasymaque. What happened, where is the required proof of your belief? Better yet what is the source of your information? If you look at all the evidence and proof, it looks like you believe the conspiracy theory. It could not have happened as you have been told and believe. It is physically impossible. Yet you believe it!
Oh wait a minute! You use that “if the Government says it than it must be true and don’t question it” rule
Common faggot, post your pictures for us
You misinterpret my position. I do not believe the government is absolutely honest, but this is beside the point. If you want to counter the arguments and statements of the government, you can only do it with stronger counter-statements and counter-arguments backed up with solid evidence. Anything else just adds more confusion and makes the government stronger as they can simply brush aside your lame and illogical comebacks. If you want the truth, you need to use irreproachable logic. Passing lies does not help. You don't dismantle a conspiracy theory with another one, you dismantle it with solid proof.
http://occupywallst.org/forum/cia-insider-susan-lindauer-911-was-supervised-by-t/
The lady in the above thread does not help us understand what happened on the day of 9/11. She was deemed mentally unfit on two occasions, and simply regurgitates most of what has already be told in other conspiracy theories. The posters lie when they say she was a CIA agent. All this can be checked, and she has been debunked more than once. This type of thread only hurts those who really want to understand the finer details of 9/11. Her claims only raise more questions, they don't answer any. This type of thread must and will be flooded. They hurt Occupy. I will fight with vengeance even if I have to do it alone. For the betterment of manmind. To promote logic, and not hearsay.
Just more babble and rationalization from a sociopath that hides behind his monitor and plays games with people who are seriously trying expose the need for change in America.
All you have to offer is stupidly and game playing. I am sure that I don’t stand alone when I call you a fucking un-American coward that can’t even verbalize the reasons for your actions
The intelligent people on these boards know I'm right and truth always prevails in the end. There is nothing more powerful than the scientific method, and your conspiracy theories will lead you nowhere. Your lame ad hominem only make you sink deeper in despair, and, at the end of the day, you will be left alone with your lies and logical fallacies.
You are one sick bastard. Look in the mirror and chant “I am right and I am wonderful and I am immature and if you push me into a corner (by asking questions I can’t answer) I will post stupid pictures and destroy your forum”
I don’t believe in conspiracy theories but I don’t disbelieve. It’s called an open mind. It’s not like that head full of lies and rationalized shit you call thoughts
So why are you doing everything in your power to work against OWS
Believing in unproven conspiracies is not a sign of an open mind, it is the sign of a weak and gullible mind. You shouldn't believe in fairies, dragons, or other such unproven myths unless they are supported by evidence.
I reserve the right to believe in faeries without any evidence except my own psychedelic experiences.
Are you so fuckin’ stupid you can’t comprehend what I just said?
Is that how that little voice in your head makes you feel right? Just make up shit? That’s your belief system?
Not only did you respond to a non-statement, you didn’t answer my question
So why are you doing everything in your power to work against OWS
Thrasymaque and Glaucon were a sophists. Sophists speak/teach only when they are paid. This userid is probably someone (or more than 1 person) who is being paid to post (ie. to "teach" the rest of us) Some people might call that propaganda, probably paid for by the 1% courtesy of some humanoid corporation created by the Supreme Court.
If these dimwits are being paid to teach, their boss is screwed.
This guy and his personas is and idiot with a big vocabulary and no original thoughts (-:
Give him a question he can’t answer and he panics and resorts to a babbling attack that has no truth or substance
That sentence made no logical sense.
What are your questions my dear. Pose them once, and I will answer them once and for all.
Whether I am paid or not makes no difference. Fighting arguments with cheap off the shelf ad hominem and appeal to motive logical fallacies is always a losing game.
Pathetic and weak. I took me a mere four posts to make you reveal the lack of logic in your simple mind, and the vile hatred that permeates your heart. A few sentences and you descend into a romantic unthinking childish tirade. OWS doesn't need protesters like yourself. You do nothing but harm the movement. You're nothing but a waste of everyone's time. Go back to your XBox.
hey thrasymaque, your getting REALLY SLOPPY. your posts are revealing the typical pattern of EXACTLY the rhetorical methodologies that the intelligence disinformation agents utilize. Be a little more subtle so it's so obvious.
Lately there are several themes that the Intelligence agencies are using against the left in forums such as these. First they bait you will a typical right wing technique of INNACURATELY defining what you are and represent, Then when you tell them what defuses they are they immediately turn to the "oh look at the 'hater'" accusation.
the other one I am seeing a lot of is the "show us the proof" gibberish. (as if the CIA, FBI, NSA or Military Intelligence who are behind this TSUNAMI of RIGHT WING GARBAGE on this forum would actually sign their name and reveal that it's them.
The other technique is just to divert energy by simply making erroneous assertions and draw the people out in long discussions, (as if they are getting paid according how much digital words they can generate in response to their disinfo.
The moderators need to begin the culling process before what the FBI did to Indymedia 10 years ago, happens here on this forum. Simply delete this garbage from the FBI, NSA, CIA, and or Military intelligence and their subcontractors. Just delete it - it's not a part of the dialogue - it's just designed to distract and diffuse.
Notice it's nothing but babble and rationalization!
He never answers crittical questions, he just goes off in another direction. When that don't work he changes to his other screen names
Good post by the way
You have yet to pose a critical question.
Your posts are revealing the typical framework of conspiracy theorists. Place one assumption on top of another and keep building until the shaky deck of cards falls flat to the ground. Then, start again with other assumptions because you haven't learned a thing. Lame.
A long winded rant of assumptions and a thousand and one logical fallacies. Not a strong counter-argument in sight. Sigh...
I agree. You have gotten sloppy. Down below, you demonstrate clearly your misconception regarding the meaning of the phrase "conspiracy theory".
I'm going to have to go back and re-read 90% of your posts with your "private definition" in mind in order to have any clue what you really meant. BRB.
Very well said.
I'm sorry but I must disagree with this, however I do see your point. The reason for this disagreement, is that 'conspiracy theory' is defined as a theory of a group of people who have an agreement to commit an illegal act. So by definition, the government has a conspiracy theory on who was responsible for 9-11, it's just their theory holds more credit mainstream. The label of 'conspiracy theorist', is part of a propaganda machine designed to hide truth.
Such tactics are really just psyops, of a different nature, because then WHO gets to decide on the truth? and wouldn't that just end with EVERYONE who disagrees taking on the same tactics? That'd suck! I'd have to scroll down through countless pictures to see ANY info at all!!!
well, since we all take pride in parsing words. what happened on 9/11 was a conspiracy, and what is held by a minority is a theory. Hence, the official story is a fact, and the mirage of fact is a theory.
hmmmmm.....http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/conspiracy+theory
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Conspiracy theories are theories that are not supported by evidence and fueled by misused fertile imaginations and fear. They have no place on Occupy forums. Flood them.
I stick to my definition and disagreement! Soz ;)!
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/conspiracy+theory
The big problem with the word 'evidence', is everyone has some of that! There is in fact too much of that!
"Theres lies, lies, lies, then there's statistics."
The point is, you can't plug in the gaps of knowledge without proper evidence. That's simply a God of the gaps logical fallacy, and it breeds illogical thinking. We don't understand everything about the government and 9/11, but we can't just say whatever we want to try to illuminate the minds and approach the truth. If you want to dismantle the government's arguments, you have to provide stronger counter-arguments, not simply talk of unproven Men in Black, Reptilian Overlords, etc... This answers nothing and just confuses matters even more. Look at this thread: http://occupywallst.org/forum/cia-insider-susan-lindauer-911-was-supervised-by-t/ It provides nothing to help us better understand 9/11, it does just the opposite. It just adds more assumptions on the table, and the people starting these threads are not honest. This lady was not a CIA agent. Saying she was is just a lie. Occupy cannot descend into conspiracy land. If it does, the whole movement will be discredited.
By definition this IS a conspiracy! Which is my point exactly! This is an agreement of people, to overthrow/force change in the government.... which is of course illegal! lol.... I'm not saying one way or another whether I agree with you, or her, in regards to 9-11. What matters to me, is not so much who's responsible (although clearly relevant), but why ANYONE would do such a thing....AND.... what kind of system would allow it?
I think you need to dig a little deeper, but I think your digging the right way...
You cannot fight a conspiracy theory with another one. If you truly seek the truth, then there is no other way than to provide solid evidence for your claims. Your counter-statements and counter-arguments against the government must be air tight. You will never reach the truth by countering the government's position with a unproven conspiracy theory. You are only making the government stronger by weakening your position. Do not let your mind crumble to the point that it desperately tries to fill the gaps of knowledge with any type of idea it can grasp unto. This is a logical fallacy: God of the gaps. Do proper research, and only make claims when what you have it rock solid. If you only have a lame conspiracy theory, don't pass it along. Wait until you have something powerful.
What the 9/11 truth movement has done is only lend more credence to the government. After ten years of research, they have nothing positive to show, no evidence. That is because they do not use the scientific method, but a lame research method used by conspiracy theorists. A method which is unscientific and flawed in all respects. It is a mind disease. It does not lead to the truth, only to more lies.
I stick to my definition and disagreement! Soz ;)!
And try here to continue this convo.... Away from the troll thread!
http://occupywallst.org/forum/im-here-to-listen-what-is-it-you-want-to-be-heard/
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