Forum Post: How Occupy Should Really Protest
Posted 12 years ago on March 25, 2012, 6:02 p.m. EST by DanielBarton
(1345)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
Just a hint of advice the Egyptian's protest worked so well because it was from 5pm-12pm everyday so people would get off work and go protest.
•Don't spend the night
This is what Occupy should be doing instead of trying to take something that they don't need. Such as the parks no one needs to sleep there it doesn't prove anything other than you are willing to break the law. Being at a park to protest at 3 in the morning isn't meaningful. There has been a woman who has camped out of the white house for years even though she camps there no one cares or notices her. Don't become that annoyance you need people on your side. The media wont want to follow you that late at night because they don't care enough. Most people are in bed at that time so they don't care. The fact of protesting that late is just counter productive if no one can read the sign no one can get the message.
•invite all people
If you want this to be successful you need to invite everyone after work everyday and go from those times. from 5pm - 12pm. Inviting of everyone is the major key. If you only allow people who dont have jobs or only think one way you get a biased movement. Invite bankers lawyers policemen business men people that can make a difference. The biggest problem with this movement is yelling at anyone who wears a suit. Plus it allows the opportunity for the every working person to come down after work.
•Be nice to the police
Now with the police the reason they hate this movement so much is the amount overtime they have to work to keep this in line. Stop treating the police like animals dont shout at them dont make them angry because they dont want to do as much as you think they do. This movement needs to move away from attacking the police such as protesting them they are only following orders. Work with the police and they will allow things to slide.
•work with the local government
As a person of society you need to make sure that things get to still run smoothly. Tell the local government that you will be protesting from certain times of the day be open with them. Tell them that you want no more arrest and that the cop coverage does not need to be as strong that you will police yourself well and get rid of the bad seeds. The government will work with you guys if you approach them in a human and reasonable way.
This is a bit of advice it the leaders see this or anyone see this i suggest you listen to this because it will return better results than those that are coming
In this economy I highly doubt that the police officers working at the Occupy events hate working overtime. I have to fight tooth and nail to get overtime at my job now. My best advice to people attending an Occupy demonstration is to try to strike up a conversation with police officers and let them know you're human just like them. Their supervisors try to indoctrinate them by saying that protestors are subhuman. This makes it easier for the police to do their job without silly things like emotion and reason getting in the way. Let them know that you are their neighbors, coworkers, and friends. You are people suffering in this economy just like them.
One of the better worded posts I have seen. Its about time people realize that the police, in fact, are not the enemies. Although they may sometimes have lapses in judgement (like we all do) they save more lives than they harm.
good post
Egypt's population was under no illusion that they were living in an autocracy. Mubarak had been reelected three times without opposition and once after massive vote rigging that was well documented and well known to the population. While we can say that there are plenty of parallels in American society, the critical mass achieved in Egypt had already happened by the time Tahrir Square came about. The war of the mind was already over.
By contrast, the American populace is still bitterly divided along fake partisan lines and those who don't have a dog in the race don't know enough about the issues to realize anything might be structurally wrong. We're a long way from reaching the critical mass achieved in Egypt over decades of autocratic rule.
Also, any form of direct protest in Egypt was relatively rare prior to Tahrir Square, whereas there's a march through Union Square practically every day for something or other. Too many people still tend to yawn at direct democracy in America. I think we're still a long way from Egypt... in fact and in spirit.
All that said, I'm not in disagreement with this post, but I think the biggest issues are communication with the general public and OWS' portrayal in the media.
I strongly encourage OWS to consider appointing regular spokespeople all across the country and giving them some media training. Further, OWS should send out talking points from any GA that has reached consensus and those talking points should be drafted by professionals with media experience. There should be a base level of self-awareness every OWSer should have at the ready to answer questions form the media and general public. But when the question gets too specific, spokespeople should be available to take the more nuanced and sophisticated topics head on. It could be as simple as identifying spokespersons with an armband at any gathering.
Nobody speaks for OWS. I get that. But OWS speaks. So it has to say something and that something should be coordinated so the media isn't given the opportunity to define OWS' narrative or define the movement as incoherent. You take control of the message by being the first to deliver it and sticking with it through thick and thin. That's how you beat the media at their own game.
I like this post you hit a lot facts in there that make sense
I wonder if it would be productive to go door to door with a list of the recent Bills Obama has passed to let him put any American in Jail
you are absolutely right about the police officers. if this movement can get along with the police officers, it will be infinitely more successful. Right now it seems to me that the protest is protesting police brutality experienced while they were protesting. Not to say there isnt police brutality.
i'm not saying there isn't brutality either i just think it is from overworking and the fact that they are tired of dealing with these protest. The main goal should be noted. OWS has picked up to many causes and not enough support
It's quite unfair that people are looking for perfection out of protesters, while giving police a free pass as they beat the crap out of peaceful protesters for the mere crime of exercising their First Amendment rights. There's nothing in the First Amendment that limits the freedom of speech to only day time protests, and there's no reason why pitching a tent in a public park should not be considered a form of speech and expression. In today's America, the "public square" has become privatized. Our Main Streets were destroyed, and shopping malls erected in their place. The public square is shrinking, the 1% are buying it up, and if we sit back like sheep and allow it to happen, pretty soon there will be no public square left (and this appears to be the end game of the 1%).
I agree franis... this movement has to remain a defiant one. How crazy is it that kids are gettinmg thrown around and arrested for trying to excercise their free speech rights...while big bankers who cause so much pain are allowed to roam free to screw people again.
I think the daytime thing was bogus. If they wanna camp, let them camp. And i'm not asking for perfection from the protesters, just awareness that the cops are people too. Also, if the protesters behave better than the cops, which is sometimes the case now, their message will have more credibility, especially anti-brutality messages.
Yeah I suppose, and it's a work in progress. I mean, this thing started very spontaneously, sort of out of nowhere. The fact that it's resonating with so many people, has to lend some credibility to the tactics. Nevertheless, maybe the tactics will eventually have to evolve, but okay. I guess I'd agree with your implicit message that OWS should remain flexible enough to adapt as circumstances require.
If evolution teaches us nothing else ... the better something is at adaptation, the better its chances of survival and growth. The whole model is sort of experimental. I can't think of many leaderless movements of this size (although there are some examples in history of this sort of thing working, but circumstances were unkind to those efforts). Hopefully this model is more adaptable than conventional models, in the context of the United States (and time will tell). It's a very virtuous idea (so why not try).
yep, and I hope that it will continue to naturally evolve into a more effective and all-around better movement.
Also, I'm not in NY or anywhere else for that matter, so I don't know if this is already the case, but are there garbage cans in the park? like ones that OWS has placed, and takes care of? That could be useful, because it is important that the park stays clean. If OWS chooses not to have the authorities clean the park, OWS should make an attempt to keep it clean. There could be some schedule to empty the trash bins and leave it all to be collected every day, or week or whatever.
Again, forgive any factual errors; I don't actually know if something like this exists or not.
Obama really did a great job of getting that started didn't he?
....?
“We were born out of revolution against an empire. We were founded upon the ideal that all are created equal, and we have shed blood and struggled for centuries to give meaning to those words – within our borders, and around the world. We are shaped by every culture, drawn from every end of the Earth, and dedicated to a simple concept: E pluribus unum: "Out of many, one."”........
“Of course, recognizing our common humanity is only the beginning of our task. Words alone cannot meet the needs of our people. These needs will be met only if we act boldly in the years ahead; and if we understand that the challenges we face are shared, and our failure to meet them will hurt us all.”......
“Let me also address the issue of Iraq. Unlike Afghanistan, Iraq was a war of choice that provoked strong differences in my country and around the world. Although I believe that the Iraqi people are ultimately better off without the tyranny of Saddam Hussein, I also believe that events in Iraq have reminded America of the need to use diplomacy and build international consensus to resolve our problems whenever possible. Indeed, we can recall the words of Thomas Jefferson, who said: "I hope that our wisdom will grow with our power, and teach us that the less we use our power the greater it will be."”....
“That does not lessen my commitment, however, to governments that reflect the will of the people. Each nation gives life to this principle in its own way, grounded in the traditions of its own people. America does not presume to know what is best for everyone, just as we would not presume to pick the outcome of a peaceful election. But I do have an unyielding belief that all people yearn for certain things: the ability to speak your mind and have a say in how you are governed; confidence in the rule of law and the equal administration of justice; government that is transparent and doesn't steal from the people; the freedom to live as you choose. Those are not just American ideas, they are human rights, and that is why we will support them everywhere.
There is no straight line to realize this promise. But this much is clear: governments that protect these rights are ultimately more stable, successful and secure. Suppressing ideas never succeeds in making them go away. America respects the right of all peaceful and law-abiding voices to be heard around the world, even if we disagree with them. And we will welcome all elected, peaceful governments – provided they govern with respect for all their people.
This last point is important because there are some who advocate for democracy only when they are out of power; once in power, they are ruthless in suppressing the rights of others. No matter where it takes hold, government of the people and by the people sets a single standard for all who hold power: you must maintain your power through consent, not coercion; you must respect the rights of minorities, and participate with a spirit of tolerance and compromise; you must place the interests of your people and the legitimate workings of the political process above your party. Without these ingredients, elections alone do not make true democracy.” B. Obama 2009
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/04/us/politics/04obama.text.html?pagewanted=all
Here is an idea for a new third party based on surveys: http://thenewthirdparty.blogspot.com/
it will never be chic to be homeless
Some of the occupyers seem to love the idea of occupying more than the goal of restoring the people their rightful voice in government. The tents in Tahrir Square did not mobilize the people to protest. It was the interconnectedness of the Internet, family to family, friend to friend, neighbor to neighbor that did. Our protests should be directed against the source of the injustice we want to remove. What is better, a few hundred protesters in a distant park 24/7, or thousands protesting at wall street during the week? Get arrested for protesting, holding a sign, exercising your first amendment rights, that's positive, get arrested for sleeping in a tent, that's negative.
If we break laws by camping on private property or public spaces overnight, other people, potential supporters see us as petty criminals. Those laws broken are unrelated to the ones we are trying to overturn. So why break them?
MLK and Ghandi broke unjust laws that were directly related to the greater injustices of their eras. If a person tried to vote, or sat at a lunch counter, or refused to give up a seat on a bus, or tried to attend school, or made salt directly from sea water. These were all unjust laws that cried out to be broken. Sleeping over night in a park does not belong in that category.
Family, friends, and neighbors. Each of us has direct contact with dozens of people, and because they know us, will listen. It is an advantage we must use. And the message conveyed should not be too broad. There are numerous injustices occurring throughout the world. We can't fight them all at the same time. Pick the critical ones and spread the word.
that was the idea of this was to stop OWS from looking like low end criminals. The point is to get a message across that we need money out of government and government out of choosing what business fails and what business wins.
I like the idea of occupiers having a job. I like the idea of occupiers not shouting in the streets and restricting people's right to live in a peaceful environment. I like the idea of occupiers not being hypocrites by saying they believe in the freedom of speech and then censoring people's voices. I like the idea of occupiers being knowledgeable. I like the idea of occupiers being honest about their socialist ideas....
The idea of OWS to have jobs is to show that everyday people should join this movement i think though the movement has gotten perverted and will not go back to its original values.
Most of my friends like the movement in the beginning just not the people doing it. Now they even wonder why this movement is still going on
Consistent 159 day occupation on the New Haven Green across from Yale University Old Campus. Read the Website. Show support. 10 minute walk from the New Haven Train Station to our camp, Eviction Planned Wednesday March 28 at 11am. Support and Witness needed. Federal Case being heard. Read Blog. Share www.occupynewhaven.org
In Panama last month, a group of Ngobe-Bugle, the local indigenous tribe, shut down the longest motorable road in the world, the Interamericana (the Panamerican Highway), in a protest effort to keep international mining companies from invading their lands.
It wasn't the first time this group of indigenous people have blocked the road to make their point. A year ago around this time, and in 2010 also, they blocked traffic from moving to and from Panama City, which included tourist buses, supply trucks, and private vehicles. In 2011, international travel between Costa Rica and Panama was interrupted for four days. This year, they held out for two weeks at a time.
Across the country, market owners were not receiving their goods. Vegetable and fruit shelves were virtually empty, and what was left was rotting at higher prices than before. Fuel wasn't reaching gas stations – one morning, there were lines of vehicles at every fill-up station in Boquete, a small but important tourist town in the mountains of the western part of the country, and by three o’ clock, all the petrol in town was gone.
On the news, nearly every story had to do with how pissed off people were, and was full of images of truck drivers eating their transported goods and selling other to fellow drivers. Tour buses were parked on the side of the road, and gringos with Panama hats and Gregory backpacks stood outside looking confused and slightly constipated. Some locals took to walking instead. Those in Panama City with a need to be elsewhere reverted to flying. A plane ticket to David from the city was $125, much more than a tank of gas – for now.
If there’s a distinct difference between the protests around the world which inspired Occupy in the United States to take off and the leaderless brainchild of fed-up twenty-somethings in the land of the free, it’s that in most of those other countries, the movements actually worked – that is, they gained national attention, for better or worse, for success or failure, in their homeland, and at least in Egypt and Panama, a certain group of people know that when they want something, they can occupy Tahrir Square, or the middle of the Panamerican Highway, and even if the powers that be do not like their message, at least that message will be acknowledged.
Occupy is supposed to be a peaceful movement. It is based on practicing the rights provided to the people in the Constitution – the right to peaceful assembly, for example – when other rights are being manipulated – corporations being acknowledged as human beings comes to mind, which was a declaration made valid by the government a hundred years ago!). And the numbers seen in this massive, if haphazardly organized protest are impressive. However, the determination of the U.S. Media (seemingly a conglomerate all its own) is great, and easily ignores, if it is the will of those in power, groups of people camping in parks and others marching behind holiday parades with cardboard signs.
Those intentions are noble but ineffective. Asking for permission (i.e. for the permits needed to camp in a public park) from a system one wishes to dismantle is at once counterproductive. It says that the 99% are still subject to the rules of the 1%. The now-famous photograph of Wall Street employees looking down at the protest from the top of the steps in New York with amused faces is a blatant insult to what needs to be accomplished: they’re saying ‘March all you want, you unemployed vagrants, just wait until the cops come. Meanwhile, we’re going to get a little more rich today – see you at lunch.’
If protesters want to be acknowledged, they need to step out of the small parks and front porches of city halls, and move into a place where there is no doubt they will be seen and heard. Occupy Oakland: occupy the Bay Bridge! Shut down major highways.
Cut off flow through vital arteries. That will hurt them psychologically. America loves best not her wealth, but her convenience. It came hard-earned.
Occupy For Real. Make life inconvenient.
http://structuredroots.wordpress.com
good post and you hit a lot of points that i was trying to get to that we need to move this away from small laws such as camping in parks.
The main thing is this needs to be very peaceful such as Dr King marches and Gandhi. Ignoring simple laws but not breaking major ones.
I understand the need to keep Occupy peaceful - that it keeps the "good guys" good and shows the extent to which the Powers are willing to go to crush them. Obviously, the "1%" feels threatened, or else it wouldn't be willing to go to those measures.
However, despite the 1% feeling threatened, and despite the resolve in Occupiers to stand their ground, the simple act of protest is not enough to initiate lasting change.
Yes, the protests are the beginning, and they raise awareness, at least in local communities if not through state-influenced media, but without a clearly defined purpose (which many have claimed to be the "brilliance" of OWS), a goal in mind, a non-negotiable list of demands, a solid Plan, Occupy has not and will not be taken seriously by the 1%.
The 1% will give enough consideration to the movement to do what they can to shut it down - including, if protests continue escalating in size and number, provocation, then live ammunition - but what Occupy sets out to accomplish with regards to wealth distribution, etc. will not even cross their minds. They don't care to talk about it - not because no one from Occupy has expressed interest in talking about it, but because they have no reason to think that the system from which Occupy rose is damaged enough to fix. It's working for them, so why, in a capitalist society, should they care about the poor and disenfranchised yelling and waving signs in the streets? They're still getting paid, after all, and laughing, if you'll allow me an applicable cliché, all the way to the bank.
If the movement does experience more physical violence from the police - who are pawns, as we know, just doing their jobs, either in traffic vests or SWAT gear - leading to more blood in the streets and possibly death, Occupy will no longer be an idle threat. It will then be time to step up the intensity, the numbers, and the presence of mind to keep the protests peaceful, but also in moving along the process of change.
It will be time to make specific demands, and to be open to talks. No social movement has ever been satiated by the offenders huddling in their office to meet the demands without communication with the offended. This vital shift cannot surprise the movement - they must be ready for it.
Are they?
I dont think anyone is ready for it. I think the violence has to stop and the best way to do that is got to the mayor have a meeting and say hey were going to protest at theses times in a non violent way. Then tell them that this is how its going to be.
I agree with this. You get thousands or 10's of thousand doing this in every city and it can be very powerful. But the OWS fight back or cause damage. This to me works against them every time. If you go there ready for a fight then a fight will happen. Then they want to claim police brutality.
exactly the police wish things were peaceful bet when your breaking and throwing things the police will arrest you
hmm good post interesting ideas
thanks i find that they could help the movement
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This whole thing began with a bunch of kids that camped out in a park. It has spread all over the country, the world... so how can you say "don't spend the night?" This is a symbol of defiance of a system, and the irony on how much energy that this corrupt system will expend to crush it, while the real crooks get off scot-free.
Well look the government will just change the rules of the game if they are losing. So just dont play when they say leave at midnight just leave. No one of importance is going to see your message at midnight. They will see it when they are leaving work or out. So the point was when to market to people
So you want us to more obedient and conform to their rules...stay on the sidewalks...don't disrupt commerce or traffic..no sit-ins....and don't sleep in the parks overnight. Is that right, or is all this acceptable to you only if we do it in prime-time/daytime? The early morning brutal raid at Zuccotti Park seemed to have ingrained itself into a lot of people's minds, despite not being in daylight. Most of the very dedicated, bright, young people at the core of this movement would not agree with you in wanting us to become more obedient and neither do I.
Gradually, more and more Main Street Americans are asking themselves: Why are so many people willing to be arrested? And when they search for and find that answer...they might then understand why good people are sacrificing so much to RIGHT this corrupt system that we are living under. They will understand the protesters recalcitrance then...and maybe at that point, they will be pissed off enough that they will pick themselves up off the couch, turn their television set off, and join us.
No dont confine yourself to any rules except those rules of humanity. Its just a suggestion that perhaps that if the people saw corporation in the OWS even more would join. People dont like things that are anti police. ai think we need to tell government we want financial change but lets do it a manner that actually will work with us to get that change instead of getting arrested for camping laws.
more obedient yes
confine to rules no
People have a good right to be angry at what has been going on in this country for the past 25-30 years. At a different point in our country's history, they would have been really pissed. They had a healthy bit of skepticism. We have been made to believe that not questioning policies, or at least going through the normal channels of grievance and redress...in the sewer that our political system has become...is the PROPER way to do things. We are not that stupid anymore. Compliance and obedience to this corrupt system is how we got here. It is not a sign that you are a good American...or a patriotic one, and that should be expressed in how we fight this corrupt system. No offense, but I just disagree with you...that's all.
you have your right to disagree with me
I agree that this country is corrupt and needs change im just was think about a different angle to see if that pursuit would work. My angle is to get work men and women into this not just those who are out of work and can afford to camp out every night
It is my goal also to have a wide coalition of people to join this movement, but first they have to be woken up. Thanks for the civil discourse.
no problem we see two ways to get to a goal one of us will make it
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Fact: sleeping in parks got OWS noticed (if it wasn't for that ... the media would have ignored them).
Fact: Police did not have to use abusive tactics, and following orders is no excuse.
Fact: this is exposing the authoritarianism at the heart of our system, which most Americans are completely oblivious about.
Fact: OWS is doing much more than merely shouting at police officers during protests.
Fact: this is the only "peoples" movement that has gained traction in nearly the last half century.
Fact: nothing is perfect.
This is what democracy looks like. That it hasn't looked like this in a long time, only tells us that we haven't had real democracy in a long time.
Yes, sleeping in parks gained OWS notice in the media. And very soon after the initial novelty wore off in the general apathetic public, Occupy was reduced to two-second images in national news: video clips of bums with cardboard signs following thanksgiving day parades, followed by condescending chuckles from manicured newscasters.
Attention is one thing; what sort of attention you get is something else. What kind do you want? Are we still operating on the ancient adage that any publicity is good publicity? This isn't Hollywood - the tabloids don't do Occupy any good.
If you want to be taken seriously, try to better understand your opposition:
"Police did not have to use abusive tactics, and following orders is no excuse."
You're absolutely right - it's no excuse for someone who is subject to those tactics. You also must understand that some people, including some police, do not have the same moral standards as you. If they are told to use abusive tactics, they will because they were trained to. Just as your work is to continue the movement, their work is to stop you.
How is it exposing the authoritarianism at the heart of our system? Spell it out for us.
It would be a mistake discredit other movements over the last half century in order to further validate Occupy. In just the last year, entire governments have been overthrown.
And If you are referring specifically to the U.S., then what does your statement say about the people you're trying to convince to support you?
I wasn't trying to discredit other movements, my statements were referring to the United States. Moreover, why would the people we're trying to convince take offense to anything I said? I'm really curious ... I mean, I don't see how my comments could be viewed in that way.
Sleep in parks didn't help the Egyptians with their revolution or the Libyans. Theirs also turn violent very very fast.
the Lybians also had an insane, violent dictator who probably wasn't afraid to gun down peaceful protesters.
This isn't Egypt or Libya, and the only violence in the OWS protests, has been violence by police.
nah i have witness it on both sides equally brutal. You right this isn't Egypt or Libya we have it 1000% better here. But We can use it as a model Camping doesn't work only leads to bad things. We need to have more public meetings no anti establishment bs and actually show that we want a change in the financial structure of this nation
Well, you're entitled to disagree with these tactics, and you sound like you're concerned about our current circumstances, so I'd just ask, can you point to another movement (in the United States), in recent history, which has been able to change the conversation in the way OWS has? Look, we all know people aren't perfect, and I have no doubt there will be mistakes along the way, but if we're looking for perfection as a prerequisite to action, then we'll probably be waiting a very long time.
Unfortunately, a certain amount of disruption is usually necessary to accomplish meaningful change.
i can name lots not all of them are good but they are there also i'm going to go from your first statement on this "Fact: this is the only "peoples" movement that has gained traction in nearly the last half century. "
• Stonewall riots and The countless gay rights marches
• Feb. 15, 2003 Iraq War Protest
• Tea Party protests
• Martin Luther King's 1963 March on Washington for Jobs and Freedom, a key moment in the Civil Rights Movement
• AIDS Coalition to Unleash Power
• The Seattle WTO Ministerial Conference of 1999 protest activity
• Then the Rodney king protest
• The pro-choice and anti-choice
• The crazy church activist
• Countless PETA protest
• semi-truck protest there has been multiple ones on how they should be paid to anti gas prices
• live 8
• Many more I just can’t think of them all
This movement is a lone pretty little butterfly it is a social movement thousands happen every year with out the public knowing. My idea was to get it more approachable the every day man. To the person who has to work or the child who has to stay in school that is what this movement should be doing instead of caring about if they can camp in a park or not.
well you could march without camping if you chose, right?
yeah there the closest big movement is in Chicago and i have things to do that would interfere plus last time i went i looked for them and couldn't find them at all
Well, Stonewall occurred in 1969 (during that era there were plenty of protests). AIDS protests were successful in achieving awareness and tolerance. The other ones, I mean, we only pulled out of Iraq after it was pretty much over anyway, Abortion (Roe was in 1973, and while Casey was also an important case, it wasn't exactly spurred by a protest movement). The other ones didn't really do much. But anyway, I'm not trying to disparage other protest movements, just pointing out that there hasn't been anything quite this big in a long time. As for making it more "family" friendly, I mean, OWS is family friendly (insofar as the things it supports will help families), but as far as a protest being like a family picnic, I'm not sure how realistic that is?
i still think the movement reach maximum potential on the track it ran and that it needs to change tactics otherwise it will be gone
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Of course we need to re-establish the evicted encampments and build more, in every community in the world (this is an international movement, of course and we need to stop thinking in terms of the nation state, particularly the imperialist American nation state).
The name of the movement is, after all, Occupy Wall Street and we have yet to occupy Wall Street after all, much less accomplish any of the other goals suggested in the Declaration of the Occupation.
Ultimately it seems to me that what we need to do is get several tens of millions of people in lower Manhattan, march on the New York Stock Exchange, which is, after all, our Winter Palace, throw the motherfuckers out and turn the building into a museum. It will probably take decades to develop that level of support and perhaps several lifetimes, but most certainly a permanent encampment as close to the centers of corporate power as possible is an essential first step.
Interesting idea to make a permanent society within the total society . This could lead to backlash. I think permanent encampments will be viewed as Hoovervilles which is not a good thing
Tens of millions that would be more than half the population of New York i think your goals are a little unrealistic
I don't think encampments should necessarily be permanent in any absolute sense, only permanent until we overthrow the existing corporate social order, which may take several lifetimes.
In the mean time there are many, many reasons to have permanent encampments as anyone who has ever been to one can attest. For one thing in general, even when people profoundly disagree at an encampment they tend to be much nicer to each other than they are on this Forum.
For another, for me, one of the great things about an encampment is you don't have to schedule your activism. All you need to do is show up at any hour of the day or night and you can become instantly active in the movement at that moment. Related to that, open, public, visible manifestations of OWS on a 24/7 basis make it much easier for people to learn about the movement. They don't have to buy a newspaper or find out when office hours are. All they have to do is show up to an encampment at any time and they will immediately get into a conversation with half a dozen people about what the movement is all about.
Of course storming the NYSE at our present level of development is entirely unrealistic. OWS has a much bigger vision than that and most of the OWS activists I talk to (I'm talking about activists, not "supporters" whose main contribution to OWS is reading or sending e-mail messages) acknowledge that it will take decades and perhaps several lifetimes to accomplish our goals. Our movement is still very very tiny.
Hoovervilles clearly were not a good thing for American capitalism, but they were a very good thing for the homeless people who established them and used them to build community and new ways of socially interacting.
So you want a world power of some kind to take over and impose their own system
No, I'm talking about OWS as a movement and its values as explicitly stated in the Declaration of the Occupation of New York City, which is, after all, not addressed to any state or power elite, but rather "to the people of the world." This is essentially the only political document that OWS has produced, so to the extent that OWS is "for" anything, that's it.
And what it seems to be for is movement building to address the grievances which it articulates in that document and I seems fairly clear to me that at this point most OWS activists are very congnizant of exactly how small and weak our movement is. We are aware of the problems that face us as embodied in the many grievances of the Declaration of Occupation, but we are also aware that given the tiny size of our movement it would be presumptuous of us at this point to offer solutions to those problems except to acknowledge that it is up to us, the people of the world, to solve those problems rather than the power elites which are responsible for the problems and fucking up the world as much as they have.
o ok
well the biggest problem this movement is taking in to many causes under its wings This should only be about one issue reform government to be out of business and for business to be out of government. Most people would agree to this that is why i say the this movement should move to a 5-12 everyday because in Egypt this worked so well when people were able to come down and do this. It would also be a better PR with the city and police
OWS sees all the grievances it addresses as linked by our corporate dominated culture. Far from "taking too many causes under its wings" the fact is OWS has energized and inspired every other social movement from organized labor to the civil rights movement to the women's movement, the gay movement, the environmental movement and every other movement (among them the movement for civil liberties and the movement against police brutality).
People who think OWS "should" be about this or that or anything else I think are "shoulding" (shitting) all over the movement and really really know what it is all about. From reading its very few documents it is clear that OWS is about revolution. It is about a fundamental transformation of society and social relations internationally. It is not about "our" government or any particular nation-state. It is about how exploitative and oppressive social relationships work internationally.
If you believe that most OWS activists think OWS has taken on too much I believe that you have never been to an occupation and that your only knowledge of OWS is from viewing it from a great distance, not from being active in its struggles on a daily or at least a weekly or monthly basis. The fact is, for the hard core of Tahrir Square, for its organizers it was a 24/7 occupation and in fact continues to be until there in genuine democracy in Egypt. It seems to me that the police departments of the nation are creating bad PR for themselves by attacking innocent and peaceful protesters. But every time they do they help to build the movement. They are our best 99%. They're job is to protect and serve the 1% and the interests of the 1% and I say fuck um.
That fact is that Egypt is moving to a Theocracy. The Islamic Brotherhood has the power and will get elected their president. Sharia Law is the end game and later it will be the joining of other Islamic nations into one nation ( a Caliphate) That understand what real Democracy is. The tyranny of the majority controlled by a few Mullah's. OWS does not know what it coming their way nor do they even understand their real enemy. You take your so call rights to a Mullah and see how far you get then. Change is coming. Get Prepared.
Things do not move in a single direction. Possibilities are not unitary. The movement in Tahrir Square continues. Were that not the case lower case democratic politics would be an impossibility.
The one thing that is certain about human history is that things change and everything is uncertain. The only question is, within that context, which side are you on?
While narrowly and historically understood democracy has always been about majority rule. But the vast majority in Egypt are not Islamists. The vast majority in Egypt (or for that matter the rest of the world) are the working classes (who in Egypt continue to strike for workers democracy as well as for more mundane goals like union recognition, better wages, shorter hours and better working conditions) and other groupings such as the chronically unemployed, very educated intellectuals unable to find work in their field and other social elements which have not material interest in a hierarchal social system.
But linked to democracy has always been the idea of liberty, the rights not of the majority but of the individual, to the extent that in recent decades the idea of democracy has subsumed the idea of liberty.
I know change is coming. And all the reactionary and narrow minded fuckers all over the world, along with the elites and potential elites running the world, are going to get burnt.
You can always find a Follower of the socialism/Communism thinking by the way they speak. ("reactionary" "elites" and "potential elites" "Working Class"). The problem with your thinking is you do not understand Islam at all. Hell you do not understand Religion at all and more they likely think it is a farce. To claim that most in Egypt at not Islamic simply shows as you say you have been mind Fucker by your own narrow thinking.
I was brought up a very devote Lutheran. On Sunday we went to Matins, Sunday School and High Mass in the morning and in the evening I attended Luther League, the Church youth group and after that went to Vespers. There was also a mid week bible study class, Vespers and choir practice. I very nearly went to seminary so I think I know little about religion, or at least Protestant Christianity. I am also ABD in history with a minor in Middle East Studies, so I know a little about the Middle East and Islam also. When I said that most Egyptians were not Islamists I did not mean that they did not follow Islam. My point was that they were not predominantly fundamentalist and the culture was largely secular.
You where raised in Christianity, that is fine. It does not mean you understand it or follow. You pointed out that you almost went to study to become a teacher of the faith but you did not do this. Does this mean you do not follow Christianity anymore? I was simply pointing out that your rhetoric is that same has a Socialist/Communist. You did clarify that you said, I may not agree with you but so what. It is never the majority that moves a people in a direction, it is a motivated few with the will power and drive. If you do not know who the Muslim Brotherhood is then you do not understand what the so call largely secular people in Egypt are.
By the way. What was your A.B.D in History on? Was is a general study or did you focus on a time period or a regain on the planet? Are you working on your thesis?
If there was an historical Jesus he was supposed to have been an Essene, a communist Jewish sect. I am a member of the Religious Society of Friends. The Religious Society of Friends grows out of Protestant Christianity, but not all Friends consider themselves Christians today. The sect is nondoctrinal and noncreedal. Back in the 50s there were a lot of Stalinists in the Society of Friends since from a secular perspective their values converged. Today there are a substantial number of Trotskyists and democratic socialists in the sect, though most Quakers today are probably liberals.
The Muslim Brotherhood in very influential in Egyptian society, but it does not constitute a majority and culturally Egypt is very secular.
My concentrations are US Labor History, US Political History, History of Science and Technology and Modern European Social History.
Doctoral candidates do not write theses, They write dissertations.
What is up with you right wingers and you fear of the unknown. I never knew a group of people who are so scared of every other civilization. It is because of you little scary wimps that America is always putting their nose in other people's business. I guess it is because of all that property you hoard, has you scared of your own shadow. ooow, the Mullas are coming. really? For a normal person, you are a scared little individual. Your view of the Middle East turning into a caliphate has to be up there with the paranoid ramblings of the right during the cold war.
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"the police the reason they hate this movement so much is the amount overtime they have to work" yeah,. 'cause every cop I know hates 'overtime' or money-time as it is often called. lol.
When you work double shifts four or five times a week it takes a toll on the brain and muscles. Money can only go so far eventually you will see break downs in both sides and that is where those lashes of brutality come from its a common thing. The human bod was not designed to be pushed that far
No, fatigue is not the reason for police violence, it is a tactic that comes down from the top planers. The method has been for many years now, that if you make protesting dangerous to the protesters, with the possibility of arrest, the probability of being violently assaulted, people will shy away from turning up to voice concerns about stuff. Been working well for years, only now people are ready to stand up to this oppression, many don't have much left to loose. The 1% have for too long taken too much for themselves, while caring little for the results of their greed. They are vastly outnumbered.
alright ill let you believe that. But the point is that this movement should stop seeing the police as the enemy stop marching against them. This movement needs to become a peaceful one again and stop tormenting police and begging for brutality
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