Forum Post: How about a few fundamentals about capitalism.
Posted 12 years ago on April 25, 2012, 9:12 a.m. EST by factsrfun
(8310)
from Phoenix, AZ
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
At its core the concept of capitalism is that each person will want to make money, (here we will take as given that money is the accepted currency of life), if each individual is allowed to do that to the best of their ability the society at large will benefit. The thought being that what is best for each is best for all taken as a whole. This is usually tied to the concept that the collective mind, expressed as individual decisions is better than any that can be agreed to in the real world. Looking around the world as it exists today, we know this is bullshit, so what went wrong?
Wall Street happened. The collection together of capital created organizations to which these simple rules could not be applied. The individual desire and ability to enrich themselves started working against the system as our structures became so large they support the framework of nations not the other way around, when you can enslave a population to pay the bill and you can charge the card and put it in your pocket, the desire to make money becomes toxic to society instead of creative.
We should take the wealth of the wealthy, because it’s the fair thing to do, and pay the bill and start over.
We have over 60 trillion dollars in this country, we are not “broke” most of it bottled up in the top 10%, we take 15 trillion off the top, nobody really gets hurt, we pay off the debt and see if we can’t do better going forward.
Addicts at work getting their fix-on. Truly. It is a disease and government removed their care giver and nurse - They repealed/removed Glass-Stegal. Then the door was fully open to their drug access and they went at it hammer and tongs. Only when WallStreet overdosed it put the whole world into a coma. JOY. Now because the problem is so huge they want to deny it - just like any addict. This has prompted major fear and a news blackout to try to give them time to stuff it under the rug. Sorry there is not a big enough rug. Nope the cat is out of the bag and running for it's life. The public has seen the distress and is starting ( finally ) to take a close look at what is going on. As the shock wears off the public is now beginning to speak-out. As the public speaks out and gets no response the public begins to look for ways to make sure that they are being heard. This is where we are today an awakening public looking for answers and action. It would be best if the government got to work and set the justice department after the economic criminals. The sooner the better for all concerned.
"....set the justice department after the economic criminals." Yes, that is on the top of my list too. I do not consider myself a vindictive person. I just feel that justice should be served, the same as it would be for us having done a lot less harm to others. I am prepared to forgive them though, but only after they get out of prison.
Punsishment should not be the goal effective action should be the ideal being to prevent reoccurrence a drug adict takes drug test so they know that which they seek will be lost these guys and any who benefitted from their acfions I mean the kids can't give back the education but judgments can make all the earnings go to the taxpayers that might deter them
I'm leaving for NYC in a couple of mins., so this is quick, but part of effective action is instituting a system with clear consequences for misdeeds. If that were done, you would not have people taking the risks, obviously I guess. Gotta go.
I agree, one of the problems is even the few we take to court spend a couple years in club fed and walk out, or the people they've helped make out with millions, I mean these people think they're borke if they fall into 6 figures, I think them and any who gained should pay everything they got down to $20,000 or $25,000 a year till every penny plusss credit card rate interest has been paid in full.
Perfect justice for me would be to let all the young non-violent, victimless druggies out of jail, and replace them with the bankers that have brought devastation to our economy. Then we could provide them with drug rehabilitation services in the bankers' confiscated homes. :-) I came back from NYC early this morning, and commented on it to DKA on the, "Couple of questions" thread. I will be there May ist too. I am also getting ready at some point soon to take down tech junkie on that same thread.
Hey speaking of tech junkie he told me this was self censored by the company, I just got back from medical cannabis conference and this came up, it’s a medically approved device in Canada.
http://www.vapormed.com/exit.php
Medical marijuana is long over-due.
Just passed in AZ in 2010, still a struggle, one of the people helping patients get tinctures a healthy way to medicate, was just arrested (he may be facing many years due to trumped up charges, friend of mine), very hard to comply with law here and help patients as parts are being blocked by our (republican) governor.
A guy named Peter McWilliams who wrote a book called Ain't Nobody's Business If You Do was dying of cancer, so he grew his own marijuana plants. The law prosecuted him, and the judge would not let him use his illness as part of his defense. Even conservative libertarian philosopher and writer William Buckley came to his defense in an article to no avail though. Anyway he was in remission from the drugs, but because he did not have the marijuauna that relieved the nausea from the drugs, he died from choking on his own vomit in the bath tub. I highly recommend that (paperback) book that is about consensual crimes. It is easy to put down, and pick up again, and the quotes from different people on every page are worth the price alone. It's unbelievable how fucked up the laws are, and how inhumanely they enforce them.
I'm off to NYC today to carry the Occupy Town Square banner in the march to Wall Street.
hope you had a great day
Yes, it was really good. Thanks. How was Money, Power, and Wall St.?
watching part four today, doctors in Spain have had great results reducing and even complete removal of tumors using traditional and THC compounds in mice, we cannot do the research here because A the government won't provide the cannabis, and B when they do it is of poor grade
I saw most of part three last night, but could not keep my eyes open and longer. Tonight i will see the rest of it. Obama really screwed up in not having Volker as the Secretary of The Treasury. That seems clear. I know, the medical marijuana thing is screwed up beyond belief.
I don't want to use the word "cure" because it is misused so much and people die sometimes because it is, but the results in mice have been very promising it is such a shame we do not do the research
And out come the potheads. That's what this movement needs. What could be better for a bunch of lazy douchebags than to legalize a drug that eliminates all motivation?
This guy was motivated:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/cheney/
That is a perfect pseudonym that you chose.
Yes - Thank you. I mean a crime is a crime - Right? How the hell some people think that we are going to end a culture of white collar crime with-out enforcing the law - I do Not understand.
One law for the Royals, another for the rest.
Steal bread, jail.
Steal billions, bail.
Yep crime does not pay until you have millions of victims - then it is rewarded. F'n white collar criminals.
Steal enough to buy the DAs, hell buy the prison, no reason not to make money out of crime going and coming.
Keep the people out of the process of their own government - and the corrupt greedy profiteering criminal assholes of the world win.
This was so much easier back in the day before electricity we would just closed the doors and decide things, now they all want to know what's going on and have their say in things. I mean really what's a modern King to do?
News Blackout . . .damn internet...huh......point the the finger at other countries........damn internet...huh.....start a war on women...damn internet....shit what does a greedy corrupt criminal Bastard got to do these days to get ahead(?) this is getting to be too much like work......
a bunch of new guys since beginning of March are they all over you too?
Yep trying to discredit supporters of the movements against their greedy corrupt masters and put down any participation to make a better world.
Whole flock of em. (?) hard to tell really with the multiple personality disordered hirelings. Check out my new post on current troll tactics.
I will, bunch of new guys simce beginning of march, they must of hired a bunch of new ones figure it's the new quater, and they got their budget, I've been updating my list post it to yours on trolls if you want
It definitely sends the wrong message when criminals get off with impunity. It's inexplicable that young people spend years in jail for victimless crimes..... the indiscretions of youth, while these corrupt bankers who have caused so much harm to so many people get off scot-free.....and get bonuses to boot.
And in many cases, in many states, we take away their right to vote forever, that is just one less voter we have to worry about.
Yes, it is really screwed up that people are never given the chance to fully redeem themselves. That just increases the likelihood that they will return to a life of crime.
I just hate any system where a different set of rules apply if you have money than if you don't, the rich get justice, or escape it altogether, while the rest of us get what the DA says, and if that means a life as an ex-con then so be it. I know it's not always the case, there are people doing what they can to give everyone a fair chance, heck the few times I've delt with a DA they were pretty decent, (but I got that white skin working for me), but I do wonder what it would be like if everyone went to court.
That's my beef too...that justice is not applied equally across the board.
That is part of a letter I sent off to congress and the president. I wish more would do the same.
That's cool. As many ways as possible to make the corrupt political and financial people feel the heat, is good, very good. I called all my reps up, and told them that I regarded them as being irrelevant.
I like that as well. I put two links on My post - Talk to the president ( not actual title but recognizable ) for those who would also like to send good advice or share perspective.
I haven't heard from the moderators on this website in regards to applying a petition link on this forum. I had tried a post to request such a link .. but it seems it fell on deaf ears .. to thinbk we can't even get a response from OWS to a petition .. how in the world do they expect us to follow when they lead with such poor example !!!!!!!
To the best of my understanding this website is not any official OWS website, but a website put up by somebody else. (I personally think this is site put up by some Feds in order to entrap activists considering hardcore action, something like those five who got done in in Ohio, but that's just my opinion.)
So, I wouldn't expect the moderators here to be setting much of an example, much less getting a petition circulated. I hope I'm wrong.
I copied off the petition link "Post" and forwarded it to one of the moderators with a request to pass it around for consideration. I have not heard anything back as yet. I hope it is under consideration. Things do not always move at the speed of business - and I find that to be a good thing - shows possible real consideration. Perhaps we just need to send a couple inquiries to see if they are looking into it. I am happy to be patient for the moment.
fair enough , it's only been a few days .. and I am sure it would take a great deal of software programming.. thanks for passing that on ..
Not a problem - I really like the Post. Getting a place to place petitions that allow direct access - love it.
it's always nice to have a place to place stuff.. I am always looking for places like that !
I was always so much more organized in my work life than in my home life.
Probably because I lived at work more than at home.
I am sure you were exceptionally efficient ! ..
Well thank you, and all you have to go by is so little interaction on a forum, thank you for the compliment. You seem to me to be a very earnest person who likes to think for them self and likes to seek truth and when finding it - share it. Good to have you here. {:-])
I think all this government debt, which has been ran up by the lackeys of the 1% all over the world, is a plan to enslave the world to it. They would be kings forever and they try to make the people feel guilty about what their people did, they could of stopped this at any time, the closest we got in the states was after Clinton and all GOP started screaming about how much Washington was taking in too much money, where are those news clips?
I believe that the meltdown was something that got out of hand - like a wild fire. They were barely able to get some control on it - after it had burned countless square miles of lush forest. But the fire is not out and still threatens to go complete inferno again.
This is why I think we have seen a lot of these security measures being enacted as they are preparing for the possibility of a bloody revolt.
I believe they are going about addressing this situation entirely wrong. I think they are not thinking clearly not at all clearly as I don't think they realize that they are making things worse by the day by their inaction to prosecute the criminals own up to their mistakes and start working hand in hand with the public to begin the repairs. Instead they are looking to fort-up in fear.
I think the meltdown is something that just got out of hand, the long game is to own the nations through debt, that way the holders of the bonds can determine policy.
Control of the masses is one of the oldest games of money and power straight back to the dawn of time. It is one of those ideas that is just almost impossible to kill. It is one of those things that is supposed to die a natural death as mankind matures.
Now here we are in a country founded for the 1st time ever on the principals of democracy and equality of all men.
If Jesus were here right now do you think He might go after the Money Changers of WallStreet of the World?
Would Jesus have called out the Pharacies of our government of all of the Governments of the world? Those who hold the truths of the society/world in which we live and use it to their own purposes?
I am always and forever amazed at the fact of no matter how much things change the basics still remain untouched.
Well since Jesus is not here I am glad OWS was born and am glad that it has spread - now We The People of The USA and in extension the World must do the calling out.
( sorry I just had to say it )
Np
There are people who would call Jesus a teacher, as with all memorable teachers truth was a big deal with him, or so the story goes. If one takes the view of Clinton, and others, “the American people almost always gets it right” then all we got to do is tell the truth, that should be easy. This thing is in the bag!
Np = No prob ? ( just to be clear ). I'm old and I move kinda slow {:-])
Now if we can just get the people to understand that they are truly needed to run this country in a healthy and prosperous manner - then yes we will be on our way.
I think so on the Np, yes on the rest too
Think so? Come on commit. {:-D
No fence sitting.
I guess mean I'm not sure if it's suppose to be, Np,np,or NP they may all mean something different for all I know, I did mean no problem :).
Thought you did. I was just kidding about the fence. {:-]) Thought it was funny considering we are all here off of the fence and speaking out against corruption and greed on WallStreet in government in the world.
busy morning, last night too looks like, good to see
I can not believe the activity at times. It is fun when it is busy.
I haven't been on many forums but this one seems much busier than any I've seen, and that's great
The energy here is good.
Jesus (Y'shua) got beaten up by a crowd of Temple rowdies, he didn't recover well, he was having trouble with his jinn or guardian angel ("Get behind me, Satan!"), and he decided to die, suicide by cop-style. Jesus told Peter and Judas to snitch him out, TO THE TEMPLE AUTHORITY, so they would then tell the Romans who to nail. Otherwise, when Jesus knocked over the Temple lenders, the Romans would whack him AND ALL HIS FRIENDS. Jesus ate well and knocked up Mary Magdalene, who had a son, who was with her all the rest of her life. She was not a virgin; neither was Jesus' Mom, Mary, who was knocked up by a Roman soldier, suspected to be one Pantera, later transferred. Hammerhead sharks can conceive young, without a male. Humans cannot. Jesus was NOT killed by the Jews. Moses was; he was stoned, as soon as he threw down the tablets, with the 10 Commandments on them. He was trying to get the murderous Habirus to lighten up on their way of killing everybody in the Sea of Galilee area, like modern Israelis want to do, but they don't get away with what they do, without punks, like Bill Clinton, who signed deregulation of energy, banks, and courts, and we are supposed to vote Democratic. Dead people cannot be teachers. Only study of facts can cause learning.
The study of diaries can be interesting sometimes insight can be gained, but when I look at an iirrational number I never wonder what did Hippasus have for breakfast, but that’s just me.
Lol. The cat is out of the bag and running for it's life. LMAO
Thanks. I feel sorry for the cat though and hope it makes it.
The cat represents truth. Truth is a survivor.
Good way to look at it. I was thinking the cat kind of reminded me of the economy. Trying to get away from the insane bastards trying to kill it.
At the start of the industrial revolution, the one percenters couldn't get anyone to work for them, so they had to get cunning, and take away the means to survive, so that people would have no other option, but to work for the one percent, or starve to death.
Sound familiar?
I don't recall that, but there is a lot I haven't read
I do think the 1% depend on people today working to get money so they can buy crap from the 1%
Someone once said, "It is not capitalism that made this country great, but rather the democratic struggle against it."
That's an interesting take.
Yes, I thought it was too when I heard it. If you think about it though, it's true....to some extent, anyway. I believe someone that Bill Moyers was interviewing said it.
Take the narrow-eyed green-teethed trailer-trash Skinheads out of the Tea Party ... and take the whiney live-with-their-Mom no-real-clue Marxists out of the Occupy Movement ... and what you have left could very well be the kernel of a new America and - with our endless wars for profit and oil terminated - a new World.
You should be afraid, be very very afraid...
Well, I don't know if i would put it in such explicit terms, but i do agree the 'crazies' have to be put in their place...if we ever are going to have a government that works for the people. And "...without our endless wars..." YES...yes...yes
This guy has put this same thing up in at least three places, he is running two IDs as well, just here to keep anything from happening.
Thanks.
The mission of "factsrfun" is to use this forum to co-opt OWS into the Democratic Party, and s/he's posting all sorts of spin and lies like this one to accomplish that end. I've called him/her out on several postings, but I can't catch them all.
tiesa
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DKAtoday
Profile Information nothing but a bunch of links anyone could post.
Joined this forum to promote the Democratic Party agenda
8,141 points worth of OWS co-optation propaganda posted so far...
Are you jealous of the fact that people here are hard to fuck with? That they can look at comments and contributions weigh the contents and decide whether or not they like what they read?
Too Bad - So Sad. The blinders are off and we are confronting greed corruption and crime.
Deal with it troll.
This is an online forum, not a Biker Bar. Suggesting you digitally-distanced pseudoanonymous keyboard cowboys are "hard to fuck with" is laughable.
Is that why you trolls are such good hole diggers? Because you are so successful at fucking with people here?
[Removed]
I just don't see that with frf and we have had quite a few good exchanges. I am very concerned about anyone co-opting this movement...as i believe that once the fire is doused....we are done. I do see it in other posters though
The wealthy think they should be able to reap all the benefits and give nothing back. The prosperity afforded them by this country is unappreciated and taken for granted. They are driven by greed, and nothing else. Why would a sane person want more money than they could ever possibly spend? They treat life like a game, and they have to get as many points as possible so they win. A lot of these people are clearly sociopaths, and self-righteous, and they think they DESERVE more than the rest of us, and they resent the rest of us for existing and creating a moral dilemma they have to find ways to undermine and ignore. And then there are all the pathetic bastards who aspire to be filthy rich and have "fuck you money," and they can be duped into voting against their own interests and the interests of their neighbors because someday they think they might be rich and they want to sleep on a pile of money too.
You make some good points, thanks for stopping by. I think that they want as much as they can get for the kingdom they are building, they want to build a fortune that will last forever. We just need to keep fighting the would be kings.
I just want them to pay the taxes and to stop the faux privatization.
Although, just take the money will be sure to enrage a few people that frequent this joint and I am all in favor of that all by itself.
Once we determine it’s the right thing to do the details can be worked out, here’s a simple method. Write a budget that is balanced, (excluding inheritance tax, more on that later), have provision so that a “flex tax” would be added to incomes above $250,000 taxable, at the end of the quarter to cover any shortfall or unexpected expenses, going to war or whatever, so the current problem going forward would be solved.
Now what to do with the debt? Well after the first $5 million or so you apply a 90% or 95% inheritance tax depending on how fast you want to pay it off, with all proceeds to go to redeeming federal bonds, and when there are none left, inheritance could fall to Income tax levels, problem solved, no one gets hurt, no body pays big tax bill till they’re dead.
I like it. I don't see it as being something actually coming to pass.
I don't try to write laws here, but this was just a simple plan to show that it is will power that stops us, fixing the problem is not really hard.
It is simple. More importantly, it goes much further than what has been asked. It signals a don't want to meet in the middle then we can go here.
The middle is we pay off this debt, we have the money, let's find the will.
Yep, and doing that would be the ultimate deterrent to future generations ever deciding to be so callous with their investing habit. I'd say the biggest problem is that there are market insecurities because we fear the sheriff is in on the plunder. If Capitalism is to ever be taken serious again, heads have to role, and the beauty of taking money and not their literal heads is that it would be just so Christian of us to extract a tooth for a tooth.
As The Temple of the Dog song goes:
"I don't mind stealing bread From the mouths of decadence But I can't feed on the powerless When my cup's already overfilled"]
Though that lyric cuts both ways I thought it be fitting. What's a little bread as the price for bringing a little confidence back to the market, oops, I mean to the citizens.
It's not like we would be burning up the money. It's more like taking it out of the saving account and payiong off the credit card. All the people getting that money from the feds fro their bonds would have to put it to work making jobs becuse there would be no G-bonds to buy, they would have to invest in job creating activites to make mopney.
A lot of things need to change but the banking system would be a start. The problem is getting the politicians to do something about it. A little entertainment..... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tSLwj0neLWk
A bit too slow and repetative for me, I like this one better:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Chagwk0IyA0
It seems to want people to piss their votes away and let the GOP keep running things, I think we should vote for Ds to rid of as many Rs as possible only way to actually get anything done, of course we could go third party and let the TEA party run things.
Hi factsrfun,
I've just launched a website -- http://the99percentvotes.com or http://the99vote.com for short -- on which you can submit, discuss, and vote on public policy ideas. Please put your ideas on the website to generate organized feedback.
http://the99percentvotes.com/howitworks explains the plan for making democracy work bottom-up.
I hope to see you on the site. Thanks.
I will, thank you, I believe in the completive nature of the forum, that it is people exchanging thoughts not just being talk at, but it looks as though you working toward that goal as well.
Yes. One problem with this forum is that the ideas are not held in a repository and kept on the table. Things just slide away over time.
If you have ideas for improvements to my site, you can enter them at http://dev.the99percentvotes.com
Thanks for joining!
I got them up one went twice because I saw errors thought it didn't take but did, sorry, I will read throught he stuff later as well.
I deleted the first of your duplicates. I also sent you a message on site with a question and a comment. Thanks
http://coalitionforsocialchange.wordpress.com/
check out my blog it pertains to capitalism and reforms in order to make it work.
I have a blog but don't maintain it, I do all my work here it's a bit a of a tough enviroment but that way I can test the stuff, I read a good bit, I think you have some good ideals.
This is far sided and near sided. Our problems started far before Wall Street. This is why we never fix anything right in this country.
FIGHT THE CAUSE - NOT THE SYMPTOM Read “Common Sense 3.1” at ( www.revolution2.osixs.org )
Stop looking for simple short cuts. There aren't any. It's time to roll up our sleeves and fix this crap whole.
Oh I don't know didn't WalStreet start around 100 years ago? or longer? I mean this has been a problem as long as there have been kings, but I was talking about it's recent form, there is a part two:
http://occupywallst.org/forum/fundamentals-of-capitalism-part-two/
this actually makes a lot of sense...
Thank you, don't miss part two:
http://occupywallst.org/forum/fundamentals-of-capitalism-part-two/
I think you are talking about Monetarism, an economic system where people put intrinsic value on money. Capital, in the broad sense, is all which makes the economy function. Socialists should want to use and promote capital just as much as Capitalists do. Monetarists are really only concerned with money.
lay person's understanding being of most importance when the goal is to move large numbers of people
Using the lowest common denominator is not a way to organize people to do good.
Your point being that it is better to use words like "Monetarism" rather than "Capitalism"?
What the hell are you saying?
Do you even know?
Yes, because capitalism implies that capital itself is a bad thing, which it is not. Monetarism, or the game of shuffling debts and "assets" are the problem. This is what Wall Street is doing. They may be billionaires but they are not creating any real capital.
Unfortunately, people are simplifying the situation and blaming the progressive force of capital (aka. true economic value) as the problem, when it is not.
The problem is largely the semantics of the issue.
Very nice.
oh I don't know, Do you really think people will be fooled by the time I'm done with him?
Semantics that you wish to focus on rather than look at the actual issue, I find people who do that usually have an unstated propose, I think yours is to divert from what is actually being said, a technique often used by the right.
The underlining question of what should and should not be available "for sale" is not addressed by you side tracking into semantics, however should you wish to address the central point I would consider your hair splitting to see if any actual propose is served, given your friends, the company you keep and all, I think I understand.
Lumping Wall Street bankers in with all forms of capitalist ventures is a silly over-generalization. You use the word capitalism without even understanding what it is.
I understand a lot more than you know, that's what you fear, that's why you don't even try to defend your positions.
The problem is real economic value versus monetary value. They are two different things that people are lumping under the term "capital" and "capitalism".
"The underlining question of what should and should not be available 'for sale' is not addressed by you side tracking into semantics, however should you wish to address the central point I would consider your hair splitting to see if any actual propose is served, given your friends, the company you keep and all, I think I understand."
This sentence didn't make very much sense to me. Of course, I believe there should be things not "for sale" - it would a completely immoral world otherwise. Capitalism has to be restrained by a morale force working in the interest of all. That moral force is gov't, but unfortunately, those leading the gov't now are not very moral.
Government is nothing but the will of the people; those who wish to restrict it wish to restrict the will of the people. Their purpose is to make the people serve them, I see that you support their purpose, that being the purpose of the 1%.
“If men were angels, no government would be necessary. If angels were to govern men, neither external nor internal controls on government would be necessary. In framing a government which is to be administered by men over men, the great difficulty lies in this: you must first enable the government to control the governed; and in the next place oblige it to control itself. A dependence on the people is, no doubt, the primary control on the government; but experience has taught mankind the necessity of auxiliary precautions.” - The Federalist Papers, Madison/Hamilton
Government is not simply the "will of the people". Historically, the "will of the people" often erupts in a temporary period of anarchy/destabilization that leads to tyranny. It is especially dangerous when "the will of the people" is led by an Utopian ideology, an example being communism in Soviet Russia. (It may have sucked being a serf under the Czars but it was even worse under Stalin.)
The Founding Fathers of the USA knew what they were doing when they established the Constitution. We should abide by it and work with the, although often mistaken, Libertarian/Ron Paul people and have the law, not ideologies, "wings" (left/right) or political parties, rule the land.
That said, I believe we need another FDR-like recovery, that goes even further to employ the population and replaces the Federal Reserve system with an American credit system.
"the primary control on the government" this control being excerised by the people...
When fear of tyranny becomes the cry then it is tied to high tax rates, while the people go without health care or education then fear of tyranny is missplace, the greatest tyranny the American people face is that of debt, those that hold it and our government (they are members of the 1%) wish to impose a tyranny of repayment upon the population when we did not cause this, the people they sent to Washington did this we must seize their trust funds and free ourselves of this tyranny.
The criminals in Washington should definitely be thrown in jail, but let's not throw out the good with the bad and let us not blame classes for the actions of individuals.
The people who hold the bonds can pay them off, all that is needed is a few changes in the law to move the money.
Have you looked at the derivative numbers? It's in the quadrillions.
Big Risk: $1.2 Quadrillion Derivatives Market Dwarf World GDP: http://www.dailyfinance.com/2010/06/09/risk-quadrillion-derivatives-market-gdp/
It has nothing to do with blame really it is just something that must be done, the collecting of huge tax to pay our huge bill, but there is some comfort in knowing that we took on that debt to "help" the economy each and every time, we spent money and didn't raise taxes or just cut taxes, so it is good that those who have benefited from that good economy can pay the bill, at least they have the money to, goodness knows those still waiting for the good times to kick in sure can't.
No one can pay back all of the debt created by the Western financial system. The banks have to eat their debt and, if it's too much, too bad for them. No more "Too Big to Fail" banks. Their Monetarist system is dead.
The core concept of capitalism, is a mirror image of Monarchy.
The capitalist's dream is power and control of people, to gain control of the wealth produced by the people, without any form of democracy. It is pure tyrannical rule; absolute power. This is the dream and desire of every capitalist. And the freedom they espouse, is the freedom to become such a ruler, and have the kingdom and power of authority. Capitalism in itslef is a masked evil. Shrouded by the deception of it's achievements.
by George you've got it, spread the word
recognizing a problem is an important step in evolution.
I agree, the very concept of "freedom" has been corrupted by the right, I believe that freedom means being free to live in and enjoy the country, without some greedy bastard saying I want to be king.
Whether there actually is 60 trillion in the top 10% or not, it won't matter. Most of this money is in different assets; most of which, in the United States. If we broke up these assets we would also be harming the nation, by eliminating thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of jobs, and services...
oh there are plenty of ways to do it once we decide that it is the right thing to do remember we won't be burning the money we will be giving it to people who hold bonds, those people can buy the assets and life goes on the circle of life being what it is
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PTQ1WOC9RgY
I like this one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Chagwk0IyA0
Of Course! Yes!!!!!! We should do this!! Or a reasonable fax-of.
and~Still looking for the perfect breakfast in pdx.
La Pepe's is good, perfect is hard.
opps I keep thinking your saying phx, anyway once people agree to what the intent is the details can be worked out, myself if I got to pay a big tax, I'd ather do it when I die, but that's just me
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I had a friend in school who lost his father very early on and his mother brought him up. They lived a very modest life but he was a smart kid. Today, after completing his MBA from Harvard, he is a portfolio manager at a billion dollar hedge fund.
That's how hard work and perseverance pays off. Stop whining, start working.
I'm sure the Social Security checks was all that stood between them and disaster, how wonderful to have that program to help the American people, I hope the wealthy understand that when they start paying first dollar to last all forms of income into the system that they are doing good work. How proud they should be to be there for others as they were there for them.
I don't know, i knew his mother worked some job, never cared to ask what. But I am sure not everyone who gets social security checks is smart enough to get admission into Berkeley and Harvard. But yes, social security is one of the best things to have been implemented.
I know a few that got by that way when the husband died. That's why I don't look at the individual cases so much as the overall affect, fact is people are born quite different.
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Nothing "went wrong" with capitalism. The system is designed so that the more successful you are the more success you have. The rich get richer. It has always been that way. In the last part of the 19th century it was the railroad barons that Mark Twain railed against. It has always required intervention to keep it from becoming an economic spiral. The tinkering is hard and often accompanied by senseless violence, but it comes just the same. It comes because it must. But when it comes, we must recognize it and let it work. I think when you say it is "fair" to take someone's money from them you lose the argument. You will never be able to convince them it's fair. You might, however, be able to convince them it's necessary for the continuance of capitalism. The cooperation of the wealthy is necessary to fix the problem. Instead of demonizing them and vilifying them, appeal to their generosity and acknowledge that that generosity can save our country. Appeal to their better natures and honor their sacrifice. Praise their ability to play the game. This might seem distasteful to some, but the point is to get it done. Is it worse than bombs and bullets?
When the board of directors get together give each other 30% increases and cut jobs and pay for everyone else "fair" doesn't come into it, power is all that matters they have the power to do it because they wield collective power against individual power, that's why those who create all the wealth in this country have it stolen by the COBs (Children of Billionaires).
So when we use democracy to impose a 99% inheritance tax on everything over 5 million remember it's about collective power, not fair.
Nice dream. Go look up the combined net worth of the Forbes 400. It's under $1 trillion. Where exactly are you going to get the other $15T to pay off the debt? Ok, you're going to nationalize every company with more than $1 million net worth. Fab. Sign me up. You do realize in the end, you're going to have to enforce your idea of utopia with an army. You would end up worse than the people you despise. Of course, not sure how you're going to disarm the majority of the American public, most of whom are not liberals or anarchists, and prevent massive bloodshed. If you think OWS is impressive, wait til you get within sniffing distance of dictating a utopia of taking people's assets by force. LOL, but it's not really funny. You'll get squashed like a gnat on a windshield. You'll see just how much you have been humored by a public that doesn't take you seriously. I would liken it to trying to hit your dad as a boy, and he playfully deflects your wild swings, and then you suddenly kick him in the balls. The smile and laughter disappear just as suddenly.
I like the ideal, kicking Wall Street in the balls, good idea.
Americans have over 60 trillion in net worth we take off the top, most of that is held by the top 10%. Not going to nationalize anything, but once we agree that it is the right thing to do the details could be worked out, I favor a large inheritance tax, I mean if I got to pay a big tax bill, and the country sure does, then I would rather pay it when I'm dead.
The government doesn't recieve or hold the asset the people who hold bonds now will have plenty of money to buy the assests and then they will be ran by smarter people anyway, we just won't be paying interest anymore.
Uh oh. Just as I thought, now we're suddenly talking about the top 10% rather than the top 1%!!! Republicans are so right when they point out that all liberals ever want to do is appear reasonable and just get a toe in the door (like just taxing the 1%), then they bring their big fat ugly sister through the door. They grow absolutely everything. And you wonder why the Republicans are so intransigent and just say no all the time. Let's see, net worth. Most of the net worth the average person has in America is stuck in their home. I guess you're going to take everyone's homes and sell them all. Nah, no problems there. We already have a large inheritance tax over a certain cap. What the F does your second paragraph even mean? Put the glue down.
Really you know that little about finance, look we levy the tax it gets paid, we pay the bonds, people take the money and create jobs, got it?
Not when you get in the top ten percent or so that "home" thing is for the little people.
Look we already spent the money, we already own it, let's just take it out of the bank and pay it, sure only some people have money in the bank, but hey they are the ones paying to send these guys there, maybe next time they will pay attention and we won't have to do this again. The inheritance tax should be 90% after a few million till we get this paid that's a great ideal.
Well, I can assure you that if you bother to look up the income level for percentages 2-10, you're going to upset Mr. Obama by talking about taking their money, because he absolutely, 100%, pinky-swear promised to not raise taxes for those making less than $250k, a figure you will rudely bust straight thru going after the top 10%. Even he will ignore you. Ok, just for laughs sake, let's pretend that you, Mr. Factsrfun, are 60 or 65 years old and are worth $50M and we have a 90% tax on everything you have past $3M. You've worked your whole life, owned a company, have several children, a variety of interests, and wish to "pay it forward" as it were, and help people of your choosing as well as help make your children and their children's lives easier. I'll give you several options: 1) do nothing, force your children to sell all of your assets when you die at fire-sale prices and give almost all of it to a wasteful government, 2) hire a good financial planner and estate attorney to make sure you're money goes to the charities and other organizations who YOU would like it to go to and as little to the government as possible? Hmmmmmm. By the way, Bill Gates and Warren Buffett usually agree with Democrat/liberal policies. How much have they agreed to give the government when they die?
Wait a minute are you now in favor of just giving bunches of money to people?
Well that's different; if you want to do that, what exactly did you have in mind? I thought just giving tons of stuff to people wasn't good for them, or did I miss something?
Huh? I am for people having the choice, aside from paying a reasonable amount of taxes to maintain roads, military, police, etc. to use the remainder the way they wish. I am simply pointing out to you that unless it becomes illegal to give your money to the Red Cross or give away $10,000 a year to an unlimited number of individuals and thereby reduce your taxable estate, you're not going to get the big windfall that you think will save us. How do you keep people from slowly selling their assets and moving money to other countries? Do you think Gates and Buffett are stupid? You must, because the government is going to get very little of their money, if any at all, unless they willingly decide to bequeath it, which would be very nice of them.
Then I choose for the somebody to give me a pile of money, if it's just a choice.
$10,000 a year is peanuts, it would be paid no problem.
Move it lose it I always say.
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I think that original content for the site matters......
I dont see how we dont end up in the same position again though. We need:
A) an engaged public B) real leadership at the top, that is willing to drastically change the tax/trade/monetary/foreign policies C)We dont get B without A.
The saying "people get the government they deserve" has a lot of truth to it. Individually, no its not fair. But societies as a whole need to step up themselves to provide for solutions when things go wrong. Hence my support for anyone who is trying to do that.
I don't try to write laws here, but I do have a simple, inheritance tax/flex tax plan that would both fix the budget problem without hurting anyone, and keep congress in check going forward. Now I don't think they will make me King any time soon, so for now it's do the hard slow work, of getting rid of Republicans.
10% own 60 trillion? .05% own 20% world gdp (its america) so by your logic, lets take idk just 50% of our gdp and spread it around the world, we'd still have 10% of the world gdp it would really hurt anyone!
no the 60 trillion is the total but the top do have most of it
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I am surprised that it took you a sub prime mortgage crisis to realize that what is good for the individual is not always good for the society. What it someone paid me to kill you? It would sure benefit me and the person who is hiring and, provided you have an life insurance policy, your wife and kids too. But it sure isn't good for the society if people go around killing each other (though in your case I will probably be doing a service to society).
So what took you so long? Incentives aren't always so aligned that what is good for the individual is good for the society. Teachers who help students cheat in test so that they don't get fired, also is a case of wrong choice of incentives.
In the case of banking too, incentives were wrong. And as many have suggested, the bonuses should be linked to long term performance of bankers instead of quarter to quater performance.
And taking the wealth of the wealthy is fair, is it? Well you are in the global top 3% and the hungry kids in Africa and Asia think they should take away your wealth and 'start over'. It is only fair, is it not?
I don't know where you've been, but I've been talking about this stuff for thirty years, maybe it took all this to get your attention.
As far as fair goes, nobody in the boardroom ask themselves if it’s "fair" when they pump up their income at the expense of their workers, year after year, so if we impose a 99% inheritance tax above say 5 million, fair don't come into play, it's about do you have the power to do it, and yes we do, that's all that matters, will it work, yes it will, now it's just a matter of when, because it is basically what we will do in the end you know that don't you?