Forum Post: Greed Everywhere
Posted 12 years ago on Dec. 22, 2011, 11:41 a.m. EST by kingscrossection
(1203)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
Ok I'm going to post a serious thread and I'm going to get a bunch of shit for it. However, I would like people on this forum to turn around and analyze your movement and point to me where you can find greed. Go in and deconstruct you r movement and tell me what comes up instead of pointing fingers always at the other guys. Just take one minute to think about it before you post.
I was told I need to make this more explicit so here goes.
Basic Breakdown: 1%: Buys the bills they want
99%: Want what the rich have so they want to bring them down to the same level by a. adding taxes(not actually a terrible idea) or b. taking their wealth and redistributing it to the less fortunate.
I don't know how many actually endorse this idea but I've read it several times on this forum and with friends of parents who fall under this category.
P.S. This is general on purpose. Have at it.
I cannot speak for anyone else, but I am part of the 99% and I do not want what the rich have. I see something bigger here. Much bigger. Other's do not see anything but people standing around, doing nothing, complaining. I see seeds. Everywhere I look. I see people sowing seeds. Nobody can see the future, but the laws of cause and effect allow us to make predictions. I don't think that some people lack the ability to envision what those seeds will grow into. I just think they refuse to see it.
30 years ago the average CEO earned 40 times the average worker's wage. Today the average CEO earns 343 times the average worker's wage, and the average worker's wage has been declining steadily over the past decade. I think that's greed.
"Today the average CEO earns 343 times the average worker's wage"
When you say "average CEO" what do you actually mean? Average CEO of what? Are you referring to CEOs of Fortune 500 companies? Because most businesses in the US are small businesses, and the CEOs don't make nearly that kind of money.
It refers to big corporations. Does that make it not greedy?
I absolutely agree with you that small businesses are not as greedy.
I would tend to agree with you but that is how the system is set up. The entrepreneurs hit it big and make money thus creating jobs which in turn gets them more money. Its part of the cycle.
The system can be fixed. We can get money out of politics and get our country back for the people.
Yes the companies pay the politicians I agree with you but there is loads more wrong with this country than that.
And the politicians are crooked enough to take it. The problem seems to be with the politicians.
Everyone has a selling point. Some say they would never betray their country but if a terrorist group stole your parents or children I bet your tune would change in less than a heartbeat.
Perhaps we need one more law. "Anyone occupying a position in the public trust (Politicians, teachers, preachers, journalists. etc.) would be committing a felony should they knowingly lie to the public to further their own agenda."
Should it just result in ostracization?
True. A lot. But, you have to start somewhere.
I knew this would be confusing. They do harm. The harm the economy at least. You say that they should not be able to by their bills. I agree with that. On the other hand they also have the right to protect their interests and the interests of the employees functioning inside of them. Does that help at all?
I'm still confused by your argument but I'm happy to agree to disagree. I still think the employees should use their vote as citizens to decide what issues are important to them (if only their politicians weren't bought by corporate interests and the wealthy.)
Well then I have to apologize for that.
No problem. Peace to you and yours. Enjoy the holidays.
Same to you beauts
Fair point but why not something a little less large?
Actually, I think the most important objective of this movement is to get money out of politics. Can we agree on that?
Yes but we probably have differing ideas on how. For instance you advocate keeping corporations from paying in. I on the other hand want to get rid of the congressional and senatorial pensions they get paid by working one term and all of the other little extras like the extra healthcare and their own little retirement fund as well as social security. Its one of my soapbox issues.
Okay. That's all a starting point. But, curious, why would you not want to get corporate money out of politics? Do you really think it is okay for corporations to have more of a say about legislation than the nation's citizens?
I think that should be an end point not a starting point. Now that is going to sound weird taken with what I'm about to say. I also think that corporations have a right to protect their interests as do citizens of the united states. I'm not saying they are people just that they do have certain rights as does a dog or cat.
I'm not getting you, but that's fine. Think of it this way, citizens work for corporations and citizens vote. If they want to vote to benefit their corporation they will, but the corporation should not be buying the government. That's how I see it.
I guess I'm saying that corporations have a right to defend themselves as long as they don't harm anyone. The question is how to determine what will harm people because I can honestly say that ordinary citizens such as myself and maybe you don't have that kind of information.
I'm sure we could find a long list somewhere, or could compose one, of how corporations have harmed us economically, environmentally, socially, politically, etc.
Yes a list of past offenses but I was referring to the future.
I'm still not getting you. Somehow, for you, there's been a change and corporations are no longer causing harm (I don't believe they all cause harm), but they used to?
Good one ! I had to actually think and defend my reasoning for a moment.
The 1%(most of) have more then they could ever spend and want more no matter who or what gets hurt in the process.
The 99% are struggling to survive and pay the bills. Seemingly swimming up stream against a strong current. Every time you turn around there's another medical bill or prescription. It's your child's birthday or your wedding anniversary. The have to pay bills are paid , groceries are done, the truck and mini van are filled for the week. You bought groceries on the credit card to off set the purchase of a fishing pole and tackle box for your 5 year old sons birthday. You know you shouldn't be charging up that card , but he's been pleading with you for the last six months to go fishing, you have been putting him off because you just got done paying off that last deductible and the insurance renewal is due next pay check. You recall the look in his eyes, can hear the desperation of the plea ringing in your ear. The 20.00 dollar customary gift would make him smile , but the fishing stuff will change his world ( and make you a hero for 5- 10 minutes.) So off to the local (always shop local if you can ) tackle shop you go. The story goes on... one thing leads to another you get farther and farther behind and work harder and harder. I don't believe in my heart that's greed. Personally I give what I can to help others and wish I had more. I help a neighbor in need and never have let a friend go hungry. I wish I was in the position to chip in that 5.00 to Moveon.org or Grayson for congress. But, it's not there. "Get a job " the 1% reply. Well, hmm my wife and I both have two.
Thank you very much. That was the point. I'm not here to bash peoples head with my ideas just give them something to think about. And yes I agree with you things are bad and people do work two jobs to do what they have to do. And yes I agree with you that most of the 1% has way more than they will ever spend but it is their money to do with as they wish. I agree that helping others is wonderful but let me tell you a personal story.
I was at the gas station and there was a homeless man who makes his living getting rides on the highway. He needed a lift back to the highway. I watched him ask 3 different people(Obvious Christians who I have been told are very giving people) either ignore him or treat him like dirt. I jumped at the chance to help and on the drive to the highway religion came up and I was told I was going to hell because I didn't believe in god. Where is the incentive to help others when you get shit back because of your personal beliefs. How is it fair?
I do not believe in any god or any form of god or hell so I feel your pain. It is hard to have people preach to you that is why I left home at 14 I would come back till I could handle it and leave again. My father was gone ( left) and my Mother was an evangelical that went to church when the doors were open.
But, here's the thing. My version of America is that of a WE society not a me society. So you do it for the common good. So that you know you did the right thing in your heart. Personally , I would have given him a ride either. I don't give any one a ride that I don't know . Florida is filled with the nut jobs that flee the rest of the country. But, you look around you at the needs of your fellow man. The little girl in your sons class that shows are falling apart. You have seen her parents and know she's not getting a new pair any time soon so you find a way to get her a pair even if there slightly used because that's all you can afford.
Your homeless man may been try to return the kindness. He believes in his hart there is a god and wanted to pass it on to you.
What gets me is when you give a few bucks of your hard earned cash to OWS and then read that there proposed Christmas party budget was 7,000.00. If that is true I will never be sending money to OWS again. That is not what I think most people have in mind when donating to the movement. I could give 20.00 to a local food bank and have it not be spent frivolously.
Well honestly the system we originally had was set up so that businesses could move towards personal wealth and what they chose to do with that money was their business. But yes on principal I would help the little girl with warn shows.
Thomas Jefferson:
“I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies. If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around [the banks] will deprive the people of all property until their children wake-up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered.”
U.S. President Abraham Lincoln, Nov. 21, 1864 “I see in the near future a crisis approaching that unnerves me and causes me to tremble for the safety of my country. . . . corporations have been enthroned and an era of corruption in high places will follow, and the money power of the country will endeavor to prolong its reign by working upon the prejudices of the people until all wealth is aggregated in a few hands and the Republic is destroyed.”
I hope we shall crush in its birth the aristocracy of our monied corporations which dare already to challenge our government to a trial by strength, and bid defiance to the laws of our country.
Thomas Jefferson
“I am a most unhappy man. I have unwittingly ruined my country. A great industrial nation is controlled by its system of credit. Our system of credit is concentrated. The growth of the nation, therefore, and all our activities are in the hands of a few men. We have come to be one of the worst ruled, one of the most completely controlled and dominated governments in the civilized world. No longer a government by free opinion, no longer a government by conviction and the vote of the majority, but a government by the opinion and duress of a small group of dominant men.”
What system do you propose?
The 99% Declaration is a place to start a national conversation.
I also agree with the platform of the Vermont Progressive Party which is a reincarnation of the old Bull Moose party.
I assume that is what you meant by your intentionally vague question.
Yes I did. Thank you.
If you don't see how absurd the statement, "99%: Want what the rich have so they want to bring them down to the same level", is then I really don't know what to tell you.
The world would be a better place if we all made a better effort to deeply understand others' motives.
Then enlighten me please. Help me understand and like I said I don't know how many endorse this idea but I have seen it before.
I've never seen it before and it's possible you're projecting your own feelings onto OWS, i.e. you want what the rich have so you want to bring them down to the same level. Have you ever thought about it this way?
I don't know what you mean. Have you heard my spiel on playing hearts?
"Out of our dream of equality we have lifted masses from subjugation and moved larger masses into slavery. We have provided new heroes, new myths, new gallantries, new despots, new prisons, new atrocities. Substituting new Gods for old we have dedicated new altars, composed new anthems, arranged new rituals, pronounced new blessings, invoked new curses and erected new gallows for the disbelievers. We have reduced science to cults and honest men to liars. We have even reduced the 18th century equality, glorious if false, to a more workable 20th century interpretation-Mediocrity. Inglorious if real." One day I was going through some material I had written some 40 or more years ago. Whether I wrote these lines or took them from somewhere else, I don't know. I suspect that they came from someone else for they sound too intelligent for my ability to compose. I wish I knew where they came from. I suspect they may have come from one of several sources, and will state that the probability is this one comes from Robert Ardrey's "Social Contract." "Thomas Jefferson said, “All men are created equal.” For your information, a society of equals is a natural impossibility. Inequality is the first law of social material. Equality of opportunity must be regarded as the second law. Every human must be granted equal opportunity to display his genius or to make a damn fool of himself in the process. While a society of equals is a natural impossibility, a just society is a realizable goal. We have ignored the law of equal opportunity since civilizations earliest hour. We pretend today that the law of inequality does not exist, and in our pursuit of the unattainable we make impossible the realizable. And so “equality”, in the Jeffersonian definition, is a philosophy of the impossible, which is no philosophy at all. We have no certainty. We prowl our highways, teach or attend out classes, swallow our drugs or our fast food, quarrel, fornicate, fear our children, sigh for the unfortunate, avoiding their presence, envy the fortunate and court their approval, work to forget our meaningless lives, drink to forget our meaningless work, purchase our pistols, deplore all wars and praise the dignity of man. But all is not lost. Man can learn. There are those among us who can lead. But what must we learn? Who can we turn to? Man has none to turn to but himself. When we discover nature is our partner (or God-whatever) and not a slave, and laws applying to us as applying to all, then we shall find our faith returning. When we renounce our arrogance over nature and accept the philosophy of the possible we will effect human solutions of justice and permanence."
My nature in and of itself wants to rebel against what you just said because you are telling me must. I agree with you about equality being a social impossibility. You are entirely correct in your statement that a moderately fair society is attainable. However, I personally can careless who has what and how I can please them. I take responsibility for me in my life not how I can please the rich kid in school. I've used this analogy before but I play my life like I play a game of hearts. I play my hand in a a way that minimizes the amount of crap I get back and sometimes I don't do to well and sometimes I'm just dealt a bad hand. I realize that shit happens but in my life I am responsible for me and I don't need to lean on someone with more than me in order to succeed or even just live.
Short-term profit maximization leads to consistent anti-social behavior. It's pretty simple really the process of capital accumulation causes abhorrent behavior.
Saving money is wrong?
On a social wide systemic level - Absolutely - it would destroy the economy. Mass frugality causes depressions. But that was not my point nor is saving money the same as "profit" - I was talking about the aggregate behaviors of short-term profit maximization - they not only have scrambled westerns brains beyond repair with a trillion dollar ad industry - it also is the reason for just about every regulation ever devised - some type of deviant behavior done in the name of the bottom line
I was running with capital accumulation not the first part. Anti- social is set by society as are all dogmatic norms. Abhorrent in what way exactly?
I do think you could non-dogmatically define anti-social behavior. It's a very common word in modern psychology. Corporations, if psychoanalyzed, are sociopaths and exhibit ant-social behavior regularly. Breaking laws is just a calculation of whether it has a good ROI or not. Actual negative effects of the externialities are not a factor - just cost/benefit analysis
Are corporations people? I've been told no. Yet people still apply ideas to them that are strictly human in essence. Yes if you wanted to apply human values to the actions of corporations then they can be classified as sociopathic. On this forum I have been called a sociopath. However, just because it is a corporations business to make money does not make them evil. It is how they go about making money.
Evil is an unscientific term - they promote, encourage and reward socially unhealthy behavior for profit.
What is socially unhealthy behavior? Greed? Greed is natural if you were to ask almost any psychologist.
In a free society you should be allowed to make as much money as you want as long as you are honest. Many people don't like that idea. They feel entitled to the fruits of your labor.
Anyways, here's your moment of zen:
http://occupywallst.org/forum/the-great-satan/
The Revolution starts here!
In my opinion the problem comes directly from the idea of amassing wealth. Let me explain, there is a limited amount of money in the world but there would be enough to support everybody. So to be rich is to keep money from other people. There are many problems today because the 1% who greedily keep money away from an increasingly needy population. Incentive for people to be the boss is not a good argument anymore, there many exanples of companies that have started to pay the same wages for workers and managers. Essentially in this way bosses become enployees which is good for the spread of equality in the workplace. The huge amounts that bosses are paid these days can be seen as greed because the profits are created by the workers but they get nothing compared to the CEOs. Think of what could be done if billions were not compressed into the hands of these few persons. It is not that people want to take what the rich have, they just want to spread it amongst all people of society. In this sense taking money from the rich means to help the people in giving them all a chance to live. That is how I see the situation.
I see where you are coming from. I really do but putting their wealth to better use still involves taking it from them no matter what the cause. What about people who started out poor and got to be that rich? They didn't get handouts.
I dont know why people continually spew this crap full of lies. The amount of money is NOT limited,it grows over time as value is added and no that is not inflation. As an example, if I dig a few pennies worth of clay out of the ground and shape it into a set of bowls and pots that others like they are willing to trade other things of value or in the usual case, money,, for what I have produced.
As for the billions you claim are being held by the few, do the math. If you divided it equally among all Americans it would hardly make a bit of difference, and you included the rest of the world it would amount to very little. What you want is to take it from them, you can claim it isn't fair, and it might not be, but life rarely is, get over it.
Well said. "Money" is only a unit of work. It is but a medium of exchange. Wealth comes from but two places--the land or the sea.
The rich take money from the 99% but legally. They make laws so that they can make bigger profits. Hence them sending Western production to Asia. What is your proof that equally dividing the trillions will not have much effect? Your idea of the rich is that they have the right to hold as much money as they wish and at the peril of others? Let the people die while they hold the keys to the buffet room. To you life is unfair and so it should stay the same, so lets leave the poor where they are.
Here are your numbers, US GDP of 15.079 Trillion, divide by US Population of 311 Million comes to $48,485 for each person, wow, I can finally have that mansion I always wanted. Wait a minute, that is about a third of what I made this year, which I guess means you will be coming after my money, and I am not even part of the 1%. These numbers are from 2011 and give or take a few billion are accurate, prove me wrong if you can.
My point is that the rich have the right to hold onto whatever they want to, it is theirs, not yours. I am not sure what religious persuasion you are but in Islam, Judaism and Christianity there is commandment(verse) that refers to not coveting thy neighbors stuff.
Makes no difference who makes the rules, if you want something that someone else is offering, you have to pay them what they think is a fair price. If they ask too much, they won't sell anything and will be broke, if you offer too little, he will sell to someone else. Everyone is entitled to walk away from the deal. It is the system that has made us the richest country in the world.
Oh, just for shits and giggles, if want to spread all the US wealth around so everyone on the planet gets an equal share, it comes to $9285 each, well below the US poverty level, enjoy your redistribution.
You do not get it. The objective is not to steal but to give people the ability to live life in comfort and safety. Equality is the objective, it can be clearly seen that the richest people of this world control world politics, and by doing so they take away the political power of the people.
What is your definition of equality?
The best way to take back control of politics is to take the money back, and no, I don't mean limit political donations. If you think doing that would have any affect then you are very naive. By taking out the money out of the control of the government you will return power to the people. Since when is it necessary to have 25% of US GDP redistributed by the federal government? Even during FDR's time, the size of the government compared to the economy was in the mid-teems. Personally I think it needs to go back to historical levels of about 3% but that is a bridge to far. Does the phrase, Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely? That is what happens when the public turns to DC to solve every problem in the country or world.
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Its greed but at an acceptable level. I know that sound bad but we are not a government and have the ability to draw lines where they are needed. I think a line to draw it at is $50 but that can buy me close to a tank of gas. So i think it depends on your income.
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Yes, maybe, maybe. People in this country have a right to expect what they have been promised I understand that. How do you plan to do this? Wealth distribution is greed but it is very easily covered by the claim of doing it for someone else.
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Like I said I have no problem with increasing the taxes because as you put it there are a lot of trickle effects
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Its always been the governments roll because they need taxes from most or all of its citizens to function properly.
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I don't agree with you on that point. The way I see it the regulations put in place opened the way for corporations to buy the bills the wanted in their attempts to get through the loopholes. Does that make sense?
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Yes there has to be a baseline. I agree. And simple regulations are the way to do that in all aspects of the economy including the tax code.
GREED!!! is everywhere. Your mortgage is what it is instead of being payed off because of bankster greed. Your light bill is what it is because of pure greed. Same for water. Your groceries are absolutely positively as high as they are - GREED. Gasoline? Absolute greed. Taxes? GREED! Fees?? GREED!!! Tickets to anything? GREEED! Bank fees? Greeeeeeeeed! Your treatment at work? Greeeeeeed. DONT HAVE A JOB because of someones Greeeeeeeeeed??? Got outsourced? Greed. Call customer support and get INDIA??? Greed! Been a self pay at a hospital??? Greed. All bank activities that do not involve simple loans and deposits?? Greed! Cost of medicines? Greed. Cost of marijuana? Greed. Cocaine? Greed. Late 'fees' Greed! Permits to protest? Greed. Lawyer fees? OMG - greed. Greed runs this country at every avenue and intersection in it. Health insurance? Greed. Car Insurance? Greed. its almost never ending how much GREEED!!!
$260 million for a talk show host who dumbs down her own fans and uses every excuse in the book to plug celebrities, make-up, fashion, her own magazine, the travel industry, COUNTRYWIDE, pharmaceuticals, stupid fake reality shows, high end appliances, ect. GREED.
Holy albino lobster crap. Its everywhere you look. You can't even buy a damn hamburger without seeing the face of some filthy disgusting rich overpaid celebrity pig.
I still love this country but I HATE greed and I HATE celebrities for setting the pace to begin with. Almost all of them. But their faces are plastered everywhere. Even the news has been infested with celebrities and their daily publicity stunts for years. It got so far under my skin that I had to unplug my TV antenna just to keep from going crazy. Now, I have no television broadcast feed whatsoever.
Yes very good. Now instead of spouting the same information I've heard 50 times point me in the direction of greed in the movement please.
The cause of OWS in general is not greed. Its just. However, If you see a sign that demands some sort of outrageous compensation or payoff, thats greed. But thats not what OWS represents.
If you want to see the greed of ordinary people, visit any retailer that sells state lottery tickets. Let me know how long you have to stand in line to get a stinking soda.
Nobody buys state lottery tickets to pay off bills or get their kid a bike for Christmas. They buy state lottery tickets BECAUSE THEY WANT TO BE FILTHY DISGUSTING MONEY BATH RICH.
GOD DAMN SELF-CENTERED SELF-SERVING SPOILED ROTTEN BLACK HEARTED GREED.
I could say that because of the redistribution idea that OWS wants a ridiculous payoff.
I would almost agree with you if there was a call for total redistribution. There isn't. You bet your ass I'm for a partial redistribution. If it were up to me, I would make it happen. But not for riches or even financial security. For some reasonable degree of justice. Thats all. This country was built by the masses working together. Nearly 1/2 of its total financial wealth is held by the richest one percent. The richest 500 alone hold more personal wealth than the lower 150,000,000 combined. Did you catch that?
THE RICHEST 500 AMERICANS HOLD MORE PERSONAL WEALTH THAN THE ENTIRE BOTTOM HALF OF THE US POPULATION COMBINED. THEY HOLD AT LEAST 10 TIMES THE COMBINED WEALTH OF OUR MILITARY MEN AND WOMEN. THOUSANDS OF WHOM ARE SCARRED AND MAIMED FOR LIFE. JUST FOR DOING THEIR FUCKING JOBS.
Keep that in mind when you consider our call for redistribution. If you still can't acknowledge the injustice I just referred to, then you're a god damn sold out disgusting cold hearted waste of human flesh die hard bloodthirsty capitalist pig.
Yes I caught it. Yes I do keep it in mind. However, it isn't justice to take and give nothing back. It doesn't belong to you so keep you dirty communism hands off of it.
You should check out the distribution stats of '29' and '76'. Then reevaluate.
What the hell does this have to do with communism?
Just following suit and pointing fingers like you did.
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(Has been retracted) I want people to tell me if they can see any greed in their movement
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You know what I retract my above statement. Read my statement and analyze it for yourself. That was the intent and purpose.
No. Greed is NOT everywhere. Most people in the Occupy Movement have compassion for others, something that is not often to be seen in the banks. The banks are interested in performance indicators and profit, not people. The banks are the greedy ones. The 99% understands that.
I'd say that trying to seize a church's private property, after asking for permission and being denied, for the sole purpose of forwarding your movement, is DEFINITELY greedy. "Our needs are clearly more important than your freedoms, so we will now force you to give us what we are demanding!". Put those words in the mouth of a corporation, and all of OWS would go ballistic. But make it a decision of "the people" (or at least the 500 or so who were there that day), and it magically becomes a completely justifiable exercise in free speech and protected by the First Amendment. Yeah, sure smells like greed to me.
OWSers are interested in borrowing money, spending the money, and then not paying it back. People aren't greedy when they borrow money, but banks are greedy when they ask for repayment.
Rubbish. The banks are greedy and corrupt when they pay themselves millions and millions each in bonuses. I am in the Occupy Movement. I Don't borrow money. Never have. I also do not ruin millions of peoples' lives. Those horrible bank executives do. They are depraved crooked cheats who are completely selfish and even cheat on their wives and families. They have never helped anyone, only themselves. They have no compassion, and yes, to my mind, they are more depraved and ruthless than the nazis or the NKVD were in 1944. There is pure evil, and we are seeing it in these bank executives.
That's pure hyperventilating propaganda. Geesh, come up for air once in a while. And it isn't a "movement"; that remains wildly aspirational.
Is it? People who were nazis during WW2 interviewed after the war come across as being far less ruthless than the banking executives of today. Some banking executives have paid themselves over 100 million dollars in bonuses in one year. They have destroyed pension funds, wrecked the stockohlding of decent older people who saved all their lives, short sold reputable businesses down the river for a quick gain, and at the same time sqaundered money on $20,000 lunches and used expensive prostitution services. Don't say these crooked cheats don't do it. They do. Their consumate evil plumbs the depths of depravatity. They are arguably the most evil people in history. I know barristers who have looked into their wickedness. It has made these men sick to their stomachs.
This is exactly the B.S. I was expecting. There is greed on both ends. Its clear if you take one second, not even the minute recommended, to point to it in one end. Can you point me towards the OWS end of it?
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The internet will I agree with you there. However, because of the system anyone can post whatever they want. There would need to be a system maybe set up by the government where there are several websites that can are solely useful for the spread of education.
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This is a little too heavy for me so please bear with me. I think gray areas allow for loopholes which are a big deal.
There is nothing truly wrong with helping people toward ideas spread by Hollywood today and to be honest that is not a valid point because stories about marriage and heroes and love have been around for ages, probably since the human race first began.
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You just told a nonconformist that conformity is bad so I have to agree with you. I never said that I would take life lessons away from a movie with Brad Pitt but even I have to admit that Titanic was a great movie. The article is interesting but I also don't believe in luck, good or bad. Things happen and that is that.
What I do believe in is a persons responsibility when certain situations do occur. For instance, my girlfriend gets pregnant. Keep in mind I am only 17. Good or bad situation? I would see it as a terrible thing to have happened but something that I am obviously responsible for excluding the obvious possibility of cheating. However, on the flip side I'm going to be a father which is definitely one of my goals in life and it is obviously good for the child. It goes with what you said about situations being good or bad depending on who you are. I just don't believe in chance or luck.
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Girls in those countries are not expected to work for themselves while men are supposed to provide for the women and children.
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Symbols come from other places all the time. Hell the symbol was and is a symbol for peace in one religion. Boots are boots. Sometimes a cigar is a cigar and not a phallic symbol.
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Yes but boots are boots. It doesn't mean police officers are nazis or whatever you were implying.
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In that case I am completely lost as to what you meant.
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Boots also stand for iron fisted control. Symbols are everywhere I agree with you but you aren't making a point just giving me facts.
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That could be a matter of bias. For example, I don't agree with you and think both ends are guilty of greed. Your idea kind of goes along with my plans of my future. Care to hear? I'm sure talking to me is getting tedious by now.
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I think we are all guilty in some way of ignorance. Not a punishable offense but still. People need to get educated myself included.
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I actually don't understand what you mean and that mad a little irritated along with some other stuff. Please explain your analogy.
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Ok I think I understand. The pig takes food handouts for free lives a life, however short, and then is sacrificed for the meat eaters.
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Alright understood. Nice analogy. I must be a pig then
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Please explain.
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This is where you have lost me. Boots. Seriously? I'll have to read this at another time.
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No i meant that I couldn't believe that you used that as a point. I've actually had a soccer coach who was a motorcycle policeman. He was a great coach and a compassionate man.
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So we're deflecting to animal rights?
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I'll be honest, I don't feel like I have no rights. However, I've been told that means I'm brainwashed.
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Personally I'l; cross th damn street wherever I want and take full responsibility for it. Be that paying with higher deductible or otherwise. Street lights do keep people safe and occasionally make for a more organized system.
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Well they keep idiots safe. And yes more in a country wide prison where everything is controlled. Far from natural.
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You're right you don't feel anything: you're dead inside You don't think anything: you're dead inside You're a human android: barely existing: just enough to function mechanically. You don't even know that you're brainwashed You don't know anything except what other people tell you. That is a programmed idiot.
A person who has no opinion of his own.
A mindless drone.
There are billions of mindless drones like you.
I am. I have no soul. I may as well be a fucking ginger. Wait there I go again being a heartless stereotyper. I don't even care if i get sucked off by a man or woman. Oh wait I do care and I'm not like that at all. Get off my dick because I don't want a piece of shit man like you on it.
What's the matter: the truth freaking you out again?
Am I a wild animal attacking you?
The point is: your SILENCE proves I am correct.
If I was wrong, you would have told me.
You didn't, because I'm not wrong.
No comment to my other post? Just shows how your silence makes you that much more of an ass. Have a good evening prick
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Maybe the mofia has controll of the world, I wouldn't even try to come up with 101 excuses for the things people do that doesn't make any sense at all. Screw the Greedy Pricks
Mofia?
The whole f n world has gone greedy. Who gives a shit? Hope they get fat and have a few heart attacks on their way out. Protest can't fix this problem, it's too big. They'll just keep right on doing the same shit at the white house as they have done for they last 100 years. Good ole boy bullshit scratch my back and I'll scratch yours. Bottom line is that the planet is off it's rockers. Their rules - Their laws
My plan? Get in office and change the shit back to the way it was. All we can do.
Good luck and Peace be with you. Happy Hoildays.
Thank you very much and the same to you.
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are the 99% greedy?
I say yes but can you tell me how?
everyone serves their self interest. You think socialism is good because you think you (and everyone else) will be better off. well that is your idea serving your own self interest. It is a human condition that cant be escaped any more than a lion in the wild.
So then why is the 1% greedy or unnatural? What is your explanation for people on this forum saying that the 1% is greedy and that they are doing this for me and you and every other oppressed person in the world.
everyone serves there self interest. the 1% and the 99%. how are you oppressed specifically?
Me specifically? I don't feel oppressed. I have teachers that control me and they do it respectfully and I have people my own age telling me I need to be nicer. I'm not oppressed I just play my hand the best I can much like hearts and try to prevent as much shit blowback as I can. Sometimes I get a bad hand and sometimes I mess things up myself but when that happens I take the blame for it.
You have slave masters who control you and you say you are not being oppressed. You have people your own age telling you how to behave and you are not being controlled? You are the most programmed, controlled, mindless robotic idiot on this forum.
If you ever wake up and begin FEELING anything, you'll realize just how much you are being controlled. As long as you stay dead inside: you will be just another mindless drone..
Oh Jesus Christ. I don't agree with everyone on this forum and I don't like you so get the fuck out please.
You like your slave masters: you like all the people who CONTROL you. You LET yourself be controlled by them.
Of course you don't like independent people who can think: human androids don't like human beings.
wow ! I am very impressed with you sense of personal responsibility. You will be a success some day mark my words. There may be bumps in the road but you stick with it & it will pay oof believe me. Stay away from these OWS folks. All negative energy. Surround yourself with positive people and you will be a success. Good for you !!!!
To be honest I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not but the explicit idea is still there so thank you very much.
I am being sincere
Well then thank you very much. Sorry about that but its hard to tell in a situation like this.
20 years ago:... someone wrote in chalk on the sidewalk on Venice Beach
":Greed every day
takes your love away"
I haven't see any love for 60 years: Have you?
I see it almost everyday in the way my friends behave towards each other.
Give me one example:
just one.
You say you see it every day.
One example shouldn't be difficult for you: should it?
Well there is the fact that I would take a bullet for any of them, face down a charging bull. 4 weeks ago one of my friends and I were confronted by a bobcat that my friend had to pull of of me and hit it with a rock. I did the same for another friend when he was jumped by a dog. And to be honest just the way we all get each other. We can talk about anything and at the end of the day it doesn't matter how heated the discussion got. It probably doesn't satisfy you but I really don't care.
That is not an example of love. That is an example of fear and hate.
That is living proof that animals hate you and your so-called 'friend'. Animals have good instincts. They know when someone is evil. They can smell it. That is you fearing and hating all the living creatures on earth.
You aren't aware of it: but you just exposed yourself in public.
Fear, hate, killing, animals attacking you is not love, you dumb freak.
People who are kind, empathetic, loving and gentle are not attacked by rabid dogs.
You're right. You don't care about anyone or anything.
People who are capable of love care about things. You don't care about anything.
You don't even know what love is. And you don't care about that either.
That is what is revolting about freaks like you: as long as you don't listen to anyone and don't care about anyone, hey... who cares? You don't. You don't care about the truth. You'd rather lie to yourself and delude yourself.
But that is where your delusion stops.
Tme to take your meds, turak
Where the fuck do you get the balls to say any of that like you know me? You have no idea where I'm coming from and you just don't like my ideas. It doesn't mean I don't love anyone. And actually in the desert during a dry spell wild animals get very desperate and do things they normally wouldn't.
I can do it too. People who make absurd and angry remarks are fucking morons.
If you have not figured it out yet, turak is a known and reviled shit head. Don't lose any sleep over the shit that spews forth from his ( it's? ) mouth.
Ok well then I have a question for you. Was Henry Ford Greedy because he opened up his business for money? Or Bill Gates?
Henry Ford brought down the cost of manufactured goods with the implementation of the assembly line and standard parts that could be easily changed or replaced instead of being hand made one at a time. Henry also paid his workers well, they could afford to buy the products that they made. That was the point, making things affordable to the common man. This was regarded by many as the birth of responsible business. Yeah he made a lot of money but his workers prospered as well. I won't comment on Bill Gates as I don't know enough about his operations to do so.
Google?
You are a mindless idiot. Henry Ford was just copying the German innovations of mass-manufacturing. He did not invent them. By creating mechanical repetitious slave work for the masses: he put into place the idea that all lower class human beings are supposed to be obedient mechanical robots who work and slave their lives away for the rich powerful owners.
Ford was one of the industrial robber barons who made a fortune off the sweat of the lower class slaves he exploited. This culture of industrialized slavery had replaced the older culture of agricultural mass slavery on plantations by giving the slaves more tools and machines....
For what reason did they do this? Not for the reasons you spout out of your high school text book: you fucking imbecile.
This was done in order to DEHUMANIZE human beings so they would become machines. So they would lives of boredom, slavery, drudgery, squalor, degradation, and hopelessness and never dare to rise above their class of industrialized slave labor because they were paid a few cents more than other slaves.
This culture of slave labor/MONEY: wiped out all the other older human cultures of the world:... which you, you fucking ignorant ass know nothing about since you cannot even read a book, and you do not know one single thing about the history of the Industrial revolution which was not fed to you as propaganda in order to make you believe that working in a slave factory was a betterment of the quality of life for the slaves who worked there. It was not an improvement. It was a devastating impoverishment of the human spirit and the human personality: creating identical immature infantile STUPID little sheep/robots like you... who have no understanding or interest in making sense out of the EARTH you live on.
Civilization is an artificial mechanical monstrosity. And you are a mechanical monstrosity.
Ford turned his workers into CONSUMERS so they could BUY the products which were mass-manufactured.
This created the insane mindless cycle of waste, pollution and destruction of all the living eco-systems and species of the EARTH which is now called consumer capitalism. This mindless exploitation of all the Earth for the CONVENIENCE of one species is now almost at the point where it will destroy the living eco-systems upon which you depend on to LIVE.
When you no longer have any clean water to drink. When you have no more food that is not GENETICALLY poisoned by GMO organic material in it. In America: over 60% of all food products have ingredients which come from GMO plants. When you have no clean air to breath anymore. Right now, the air coming over the Pacific Ocean into California is already polluted by factories based in China.
When your mass-manufacturing and consumption and pollution destroys all the natural aquifers of the earth and you poison YOURSELVES by the poisoned water you drink and the poisoned air you breath and the poisoned food you eat... you will DIE a horrible slow death, and the human species will vanish from the EARTH and you mindless consumer/computer/freak/geek robots will no longer exist. Hopefully this will happen as quickly as possible.
You can thank Ford for helping to turn your world into a polluted mess, a mechanical; insane nightmare, an inhuman robotic travesty of organic life.
Rather than praising that fucker, you should vilify him for mechanizing human society and turning human beings into mindless machines..
Bill Gates is another dehumanized freak. He is incapable of speaking to another living human being. He only speaks to machines. The level of mechanical stupidity which Gates has is now being COPIED and replicated and duplicated by millions of you little baby wannabe freak/geeks. He created YOUR inhuman and dehumanized culture of geek/permanently detached from reality imbeciles.
Here turak take a break you sound like you could use it.
http://click.icptrack.com/icp/relay.php?r=18895259&msgid=186775&act=M6R3&c=836093&destination=http://tedxtalks.ted.com/video/TEDxSF-Louie-Schwartzberg-Grati
Oh and I never claimed that Ford invented the assembly line.
Get off this forum, freak: your mommy is calling you.
Thanks for the heads up. I was actually one post away from putting him in that category
Yeah it does not matter what you say to the turak. It is just looking for an argument and a chance to say lots of idiotic and moronic stuff. It seems to get off on pissing people off. No reason for it " It " is just a sick fuck.If you need good food for thought check this out:
http://occupywallst.org/forum/what-is-the-purpose-of-the-occupy-protest/#comment-530137
I concur. Any ideas on my thread?
Well ...if your serious about the question about greed and this movement. You need to reconsider. The people here who are actually working for positive growth and change are going to be more than a little upset with your innuendo.
If you have not done so already, please check out this statement as you will not here it presented any better: http://occupywallst.org/forum/what-is-the-purpose-of-the-occupy-protest/#comment-530137
Yes I agree. Would you mind explaining please.
I would be happy to. Just let me ask you what you would like more depth on, and I will do my best to provide you with what I can. But it will be tomorrow before I am likely to get back to you, as it is getting late it's been a long day and I am shutting down. So think about it, and ask as best you can what needs more definition and I will get back to you asap.
Good night.
Alright just let me know when you can. I feel there is greed on both ends. You do not. Please explain. And please explain my innuendo and why it is or will make people upset.
1) Greed is an illness, it is blind, it is unreasoning. it is a pursuit to get as much of something as is in existence without regard to having a need for it, it does not have a limit that says this amount is sufficient, because to greed it is all required and even that is not enough.
2) The actual supporters of positive change and growth want to end corruption and the practice of greed. There is a very large working class section of the population who are struggling to feed their families. It was not all that many decades ago that people in this work class were able to support a family with only one parent working. The wages for these people have not gone up to keep pace, and now a family often needs both parents working a full time job and one of them even to work a part time job as well. Even then it is all to easy to find that you are losing ground and keeping the basics taken care of is still slipping out of their grasp.
I will do my best. Good night.
Ok this is a wonderful list of grievances and most I agree with but what is the plan to change it for the better. Protesting in a park and squatting in houses will only go so far.
It is an attempt to raise public awareness. You can't answer everyone's questions to everyone's satisfaction, but you can try to get them asking questions themselves. The list of grievances are things that need to be addressed.
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And may a camel unload in your cereal turak.
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I believe the vegetarian lifestyle is a lot more environmentally friendly. A lot more yield per acre is possible when land is used for farming, not for grazing. Save the animals and feed everyone. What could be wrong with that? It seems if fundamental change were to happen at this level, could positive things happen higher up the societal chain?
Stop asking whiny questions and do it.
I am a vegetarian, too. I also see the problems and want to help fix them. Problem is I have no skills in civics or government. Sure I can do everything in my power to minimize my carbon footprint, protect the environment, etc. That makes me 1 person in 300 million. What would be the next step?
As an added footnote:
Your aesthetic awareness of what is beautiful and what is ugly will only begin to grow and change how you see the world and yourself if you have a beautiful inner soul... and developing a beautiful inner soul is a long process of creative experimentation and creating beauty.
The reason to live in the best Natural environment possible is simple. Nature is naturally beautiful and clean. Nature poisoned and polluted by human civilization is ugly and dirty. A healthy strong tree is aesthetically beautiful with clean lines. A tree that grew up damaged by pollution and in an unhealthy environment is twisted and ugly and misshapen. The more beautiful your outer environment is: the better you will develop your aesthetic awareness of beauty and the more beautiful your inner soul will become.
If your inner soul is ugly: you will not only remain blind to everything that is healthy and good and beautiful: you will have an instinctive aversion and jealousy, envy and hatred of all beautiful healthy good creatures and people and plants and trees.
One reason why the journey to achieve wisdom is the most difficult of all because it begins with an INNER journey where you explore the innermost depths of your own being and it involves hardships and making many mistakes on the way and learning from your mistakes and not repeating them..
This inner journey of self exploration and introspection has been done away with by the outward spectator-culture of everyone staring at flat screens. The culture of distraction prevents you from having any quiet and peace.
IN order to become human: you must balance solitude with socializing.
Only when you love being alone as much as you love being with other people will you become a balanced human being
The next step is to find 11 other vegetarians so you have a group of 12... TWELVE PEOPLE who also want to improve the world and act locally:
How?
By creating your own culture and your own egalitarian self-sufficient community that doesn't suck off the commercial capitalist culture and does not need to buy or sell anything.
Once you have become self-sufficient as a group. Then you find the best... THEE BEST unpolluted land: as far away from pollution as possible and IMPROVE that land and life and eco-sysem by making it more beautiful.
Once you realize that you are capable of creating beauty. Once you realize that you as human being have an infinite potential, capacity and ability to CREATE... and once you only create beauty. You will PERCEIVE all that is ugly as being EVIL.
Once you realize this: how you deal with ugliness will depend on each unigue condition and circumstance. If you find out that you can transform what is ugly into something which is beautiful: good. If you find that what is ugly is so corrupt and sick, that it cannot be transformed or healed: then you will DECOMPOSE what is ugly down into its smaller organic components and rebuild and re-grow and nurture it into beautiful thriving flourishing LIFE.
Once you understand that the basic value you must adhere to is LIFE and the basic enemy of all life is DEATH. You will abhor all things which are DEAD and you will focus all your attention only upon LIVING organisms and creatures and living eco-systems.
All things which are dead create ugliness. All things which are born and grow create BEAUTY.
This means that you will junk all human abstraction because dead symbols create DEATH. They do not create LIFE.
Once your self-sufficient\t community discovers how quickly all living plants and creatures and organisms RESPOND to your positive energy: you will become a POSITIVE POWERFUL HUMAN BEING.
How you do this is by always being a PRO-ACTIVE person. Instead of reacting TO something. You make other things react to YOU, by you acting FIRST.
In this manner: you will never be attacked by anything negative or evil for a simple reason. You will ATTACK and KILL anything that you sense to be evil or negative BEFORE it can act against you.
You will also ACT positively towards all positive life energy by giving them MORE energy than you receive from them.
By this positive energy condition which you will attain once you stop killing and start nurturing all living organisms: you will no longer have any quibbles or stupid questions about what you 'should' do or not do. Instead you will be the DECIDER, and your decisions and actions will be WATCHED by all living things around you and they will HEED your living example and you will become automatically a moral ethical human being.
This is how positive energy works:
The instant you see someone who kills... or is a negative person who is a killer, a coward, whose life is based upon the negative dynamics of jealousy, cowardice, dishonesty, fear, envy: when you see anyone skulking around where you live that has ANY evil negative INTENTION towards you because you are positive and they are negative. You will kill them before they can act or react. You will kill them so fast: they will be dead before they know it: and all the evil plans and plots they had simmering inside their secretive evil little brains will be SCOTCHED, and there will be one less evil shit in he world to create evil.
Once you see a positive person who has positive gentle love in their hearts and is kind towards all innocent living creatures that have no evil intentions towards anybody: you will LOVE these positive people 100 times more than they love you.
That is how positive energy works. Positive energy works faster and better than negative energy. Positive energy comes from creating beauty and LIFE. All LIFE that is not poisoned by negative evil is BEAUTIFUL.
The dynamic is very simple:
Kill all killers Love all lovers HAte all haters Give to all givers
And do it MORE than they do. Doing it faster only works with negative energy evil people because they are alkways slow to react.
With positive energy people: you might find there are people whose energy is just as quick or even quicker than your positive energy: and they might end up giving you more love than you could ever imagine... This overflowing you will have to spread all around you because it will be coming out of the center of your SOUL and you will be unable to stop from spreading your happiness to all the positive living creatures and energy around you and near you.
Your job is to make friends with all living creatures on earth and all the plants and growing trees, grasses, insects, and positive people on earth.
Your job is to KILL all ugly evil organisms which feed off innocent living creatures on earth.
When you have reached this level of positive energy, power, and wisdom: you will no longer ask ANYONE what the next step should be. You will decide for yourself what you should do and you will know exactly how to do it, and you won't bother me with any more stupid questions.
Understand? If you do: Say "Yes I understand"
If you do not understand what I told you: then just shut up and go way.
Yes, I know I appear to be a simpleton. Granted, in some ways I am. I have a scientific mind. A lot of what is going on out there is completely and utterly irrational to me. People and movements do not seem to follow any rational pattern. What you stated is very enlightening to me. Thank you for patiently explaining this to me.
I have been reading a lot on this site. The name-calling and mud-slinging interspaced with economic theory was frankly making my head spin.
You have spelled out a concise, far-reaching philosophy. Call it "philosophy for dummies" if you wish, but it helped me. Thank you
Do you preform at a comedy club somewhere, and just sign-on here to practice? Because I have got to say that some of the shit you say is absolutely hysterical. Funny stuff . .Heh heh. heh.. ya funny stuff.
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Easy turak funny is one thing but I would not want you to pop an aneurism just for the sake of good comedy. But keep up the good work as you can be hysterically funny sometimes and the good Lord knows, we can all use a good laugh.
You're over your limit freak: get off this forum
When freak go over the limit of their posts and have no reply button on their posts anymore: that is telling all the forum to ignore this thing and not answer his garbage
By the way. Is your family pleased with how your treatment/therapy is coming along?
If yes good keep it up, as you must have been a true sight to see before.
If they're not happy with your progress, perhaps they should help you to find a better Doctor.
Remember to stay consistent with the medicine your Doctor has prescribed. It can't help you if you can't maintain a proper balance.
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Is that what your Doctor has been saying to you? Sounds a little cruel turak. But perhaps there is a method that he is trying to use to get your attention. Hope it works out OK.
Oh?
Then give me one example of love
A wild animal attacking you is not an example of love you fucking moron.
I know exactly what you told me. Are you hiding examples of love so nobody will know about them? Are you keeping all these so-called examples of love a secret? Just so nobody will know about them?
I don't think so
And another thing: you self-serving self-rationalizing freak: animals during a dry spell have no reason to attack a huge animal 5 times their weight and size. Animals during a dry spell search for water. Talk about an excuse. Jesus christ.
Good lord you're dense. In the desert in a dry spell small animals curl up in their dens and wait it out. There is a word for it. That means that there is no little animals for a slightly larger animal to eat. Which means they get hungry, You want an example of love? Here you go. A friend wanted to visit their mother in Florida, we live on the west coast, and she didn't have the money for it. My friends an I pitched in so she could go. ENough love for you or are you going to say I just wanted to sleep with her?
Giving money is not love:
Giving love is love.
Money cannot buy love.
Try to understand... In your life, you've never seen anyone love anyone else. You've never fallen in love, you've never been in love, you've never felt love, you've never given love, you've never shared love, you've never had love given to you, you've never experienced love.
That is not an exception to the rule. That is the universal fact of all human existence. The reason you've never seen it is because nobody else loves anyone either.
What I am irritated about is you talking about something you've never seen, felt, experienced or known: that's all.
I have loved. Like I said you don't know me. And I said good evening.
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And I know you are a fucking moron who has no other life than posting on this forum. Sorry but I have to go run no. Because, you know I do more than sit in a chair and be an asshole.
Perhaps, but you do seem to get most of you life's enjoyment, by being an asshole.
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