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Forum Post: Gaza’s Torment, Israel’s Crimes, Our Responsibilities by noam chomsky

Posted 2 months ago on July 12, 2014, 7:09 a.m. EST by flip (6816)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

At 3am Gaza time, July 9, in the midst of Israel’s latest exercise in savagery, I received a phone call from a young Palestinian journalist in Gaza. In the background, I could hear his infant child wailing, amidst the sounds of explosions and jet planes, targeting any civilian who moves, and homes as well. He just saw a friend of his in a car clearly marked “press” blown away. And he heard shrieks next door after an explosion but can’t go outside or he’ll be a likely target. This is a quiet neighborhood, no military targets – except Palestinians who are fair game for Israel’s high tech US-supplied military machine. He said that 70% of the ambulances have been destroyed, and that by then over 70 had been killed, and of the 300 or so wounded, about 2/3 women and children. Few Hamas activists have been hit – or rocket launching sites. Just the usual victims.

It is important to understand what life is like in Gaza when Israel’s behavior is “restrained,” in between the regular manufactured crises like this one. A good sense is given in a report to UNRWA by Mads Gilbert, the courageous and expert Norwegian physician who has worked extensively in Gaza, also throughout the vicious and murderous Cast Lead operation. In every respect, the situation is disastrous. Just keeping to children, Gilbert reports: “Palestinian children in Gaza are suffering immensely. A large proportion are affected by the man-made malnourishment regime caused by the Israeli imposed blockage. Prevalence of anaemia in children <2yrs in Gaza is at 72.8%, while prevalence of wasting, stunting, underweight have been documented at 34.3%, 31.4%, 31.45% respectively.” And it gets worse as the report proceeds.

When Israel is on “good behavior,” more than two Palestinian children are killed every week, a pattern that goes back over 14 years. The underlying cause is the criminal occupation and the programs to reduce Palestinian life to bare survival in Gaza, while Palestinians are restricted to unviable cantons in the West Bank and Israel takes over what it wants, all in gross violation of international law and explicit Security Council resolutions, not to speak of minimal decency. And it will continue as long as it is supported by Washington and tolerated by Europe – to our everlasting shame.

86 Comments

86 Comments


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[-] 5 points by turbocharger (1168) 2 months ago

Ghandi had the right idea:

"“Palestine belongs to the Arabs in the same sense that England belongs to the English or France to the French. It is wrong and inhuman to impose the Jews on the Arabs... Surely it would be a crime against humanity to reduce the proud Arabs so that Palestine can be restored to the Jews partly or wholly as their national home”

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[-] 3 points by turbocharger (1168) 2 months ago

"“If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing.”" - Malcolm X

I suppose in the 21st Century, that would probably apply more so to the TV, then 2nd to the internet. Still very true though.

[-] 1 points by flip (6816) 2 months ago

nice quote - I haven't seen that one! Malcolm is amazing

[-] 2 points by turbocharger (1168) 2 months ago

Ya, he was pretty intense, I haven't studied him too much but he wasn't afraid to act or speak, thats for sure.

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[-] 3 points by turbocharger (1168) 2 months ago

So as soon as the Israeli forces are done beating this American teen repeatedly, and he gets to go home, they trash the fuckin house and arrest his family.

Fuckin fascsist scum.

http://mondoweiss.net/2014/07/relatives-apparent-revenge.html

[-] 3 points by Narley (280) 2 months ago

At some point some Arab nation will develop a Nuke or some other weapon of mass destruction, and will use it on Israel. Then Israel will counter with its nukes. Bingo WWIII, Brought on by the arrogance of Israel. All the crimes against humanity by Israel, one day, will be punished. (No I’m not a Muslim)

[-] 3 points by flip (6816) 2 months ago

that is kind of how I see it

[-] 6 points by turbocharger (1168) 2 months ago

Its tough to see it any other way when government abroad are beating and killing their people, and ours here is straight up killing them on a regular basis.

How many people would you guess have been killed by the police this year?

[-] 3 points by flip (6816) 2 months ago

no idea but too many for sure. we kill them at home and around the world. then we support others killing - Israel, Ukraine, Honduras and too many more - mlk is still correct today - "the greatest purveyor of violence in the world!"

[-] 3 points by beautifulworld (20955) 2 months ago

"Israel's Gaza campaign may violate international law, says UN official"

"High commissioner for human rights says reports of civilians killed in strikes on homes raise doubt over legality of action"

"We have received deeply disturbing reports that many of the civilian casualties, including of children, occurred as a result of strikes on homes," Pillay said. "Such reports raise serious doubt about whether the Israeli strikes have been in accordance with international humanitarian law and international human rights law."

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/11/israeli-air-strikes-gaza-continue-us-barack-obama-offers-broker-ceasefire

And, repeating from your above Chomsky quote:

“Palestinian children in Gaza are suffering immensely. A large proportion are affected by the man-made malnourishment regime caused by the Israeli imposed blockage. Prevalence of anaemia in children <2yrs in Gaza is at 72.8%, while prevalence of wasting, stunting, underweight have been documented at 34.3%, 31.4%, 31.45% respectively.” And it gets worse as the report proceeds."

Anyone who questions why the Palestinians are resisting their plight are idiots. Resistance is all they have as the world's governments have chosen to turn their heads.

[-] 3 points by flip (6816) 2 months ago

we agree- as usual!

[-] 4 points by beautifulworld (20955) 2 months ago

Map of Palestine, 1922:

https://www.dartmouth.edu/~gov46/pal-transjrdn-1922.gif

Palestinian Refugee Map, 1948:

https://www.dartmouth.edu/~gov46/pal-ref-camps-1948.gif

Palestinian Refugee Map, 1967:

https://www.dartmouth.edu/~gov46/pal-ref-camps-1967.gif

Maps tell a big story. These are from Dartmouth University.

[-] 4 points by beautifulworld (20955) 2 months ago

I'll twinkle you, even though you are stuck at 5207. Bullies everywhere, flip! Even here! Resistance is fertile!

[-] 2 points by flip (6816) 2 months ago

thanks - can i turn in my points for an airline ticket or an ows poster or anything??

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[-] 2 points by flip (6816) 2 months ago

and by arabs you mean arab governments I assume. if so my answer would be that you should care because you are human and so are they.

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[-] 4 points by flip (6816) 2 months ago

i don't see it quite the same way. seems to me that the u.s. dictates Israeli policy and at the very least supports it financially and at the u.n. we need to get our government to join the international consensus on the issue and then we will have peace in that region

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[-] 3 points by flip (6816) 2 months ago

he who pays the piper calls the tune. Israel cannot function at the level they do without our HUGE financial support - take a look at official and unofficial moneys flowing to Israel from u.s. government. direct payments, loan forgiveness and gifts of military equipment. then take into account the diplomatic support - security council vetoes etc - israel has followed washingtons orders for decades now and cannot continue without our approval. if you need more info on the subject I can provide it but it should not be necessary.

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[-] 2 points by flip (6816) 2 months ago

we disagree. can you tell me how much money the u.s. has given to Israel in the last decade? can you tell me how many vetoes? what I said is correct - Israel cannot make it without u.s. support - financial and diplomatic. he who pays the piper calls the tune.

[-] 2 points by turbocharger (1168) 2 months ago

I will say you should check and see what these following positions- the top four financial positions in our country- have in common, and 90% of the time in the past all have in common:

Federal Reserve Chair Federal Reserve Vice Chair Treasury Secretary Goldman CEO

Its the entire financial/economic centerpiece positions, from the issuance of the money, the interest rates, the Fed bond purchases via Goldman, and the government middle man in it all.

They all have something in common. The last one not to was little Timmy, but he married in right after the promotion anyways, so there goes that.

I'm stating its a case of causation, but its a correlation that goes against natural representations of demographics so strongly that its clear its important to someone.

Who is that someone? Chances are, thats the one calling the shots.

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[-] 6 points by flip (6816) 2 months ago

not anti semitic at all just anti the policies of the Israeli government. also against many of the policies of the u.s. government - does not make me anti American. that is simply a way to close off dissent and ows is about dissent - anti establishment possibly but not anti American. your numbers most likely are on the low side. there are many ways the u.s. government funnels money to it's client state - loan forgiveness is just one way. also not a fan of ron or rand paul on domestic issues - foreign policy is another story.

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[-] 4 points by flip (6816) 2 months ago

excellent thoughtful response - fact based and coherent. I wish you had come to zuccotti once - you would have been hounded out of the park. couldn't pull that childish shit there

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[-] 4 points by flip (6816) 2 months ago

" the general context is perfectly obvious for anyone who wants to see it" and -This is what Israel always does. Anybody who knows the history, it’s what the Israeli political scientist, the mainstream political scientist—name was Avner Yaniv—he said it’s these Palestinian "peace offensives." Whenever the Palestinians seem like they are trying to reach a settlement of the conflict, which the unity government was, at that point Israel does everything it can to provoke a violent reaction—in this case, from Hamas—break up the unity government, and Israel has its pretext. "NORMAN FINKELSTEIN: Well, before I do, I’m going to just briefly comment on the ceasefire. The ceasefire, first of all, says nothing about the rampages by Israel against Hamas in the West Bank. And it was those rampages which caused the current conflict to escalate. It gives Israel a green light to continue arresting Hamas members, blowing up homes in the West Bank, ransacking homes and killing Palestinians, which was the prelude to the current fighting.

Secondly, if you look at the ceasefire, it’s exactly what was agreed on in June—excuse me, June 2008 and the same ceasefire that was agreed to in November 2012. Namely, in both cases, it was said that there would be a relaxing of the illegal blockade of Gaza. In both cases, after the ceasefire was signed, the blockade was maintained, and in fact the blockade was escalated. So now, in the current version of the ceasefire, it said the blockade will be lifted after there has been calm restored and the security situation has been established. But if Israel says Hamas is a terrorist organization, then the security situation can never be calm in the Gaza, and therefore there will be never a lifting of the blockade of Gaza. So we’re right back to where we were in June 2008, November 2012. Of course Hamas is going to reject that kind of agreement. It means it legalizes, it legitimizes the brutal, merciless, heartless, illegal blockade of Gaza.

As to how we got to where we are, the general context is perfectly obvious for anyone who wants to see it. A unity government was formed between the PA and Hamas. Netanyahu was enraged at this unity government. It called on the U.S., it called on the EU, to break relations with the Palestinian Authority. Surprisingly, the United States said, "No, we’re going to give this unity government time. We’ll see whether it works or not." Then the EU came in and said it will also give the unity government time. "Let’s see. Let’s see what happens."

At this point, Netanyahu virtually went berserk, and he was determined to break up the unity government. When there was the abduction of the three Israeli teenagers, he found his pretext. There isn’t a scratch of evidence, not a jot of evidence, that Hamas had anything to do with the kidnappings and the killings. Nobody even knows what the motive was, to this point. Even if you look at the July 3rd report of Human Rights Watch, they said nobody knows who was behind the abductions. Even the U.S. State Department, on July 7th, there was a news conference, and the U.S. State Department said, "We don’t have hard evidence about who was responsible." But that had nothing to do with it. It was just a pretext. The pretext was to go into the West Bank, attack Hamas, arrest 700 members of Hamas, blow up two homes, carry on these rampages, these ransackings, and to try to evoke a reaction from Hamas.

This is what Israel always does. Anybody who knows the history, it’s what the Israeli political scientist, the mainstream political scientist—name was Avner Yaniv—he said it’s these Palestinian "peace offensives." Whenever the Palestinians seem like they are trying to reach a settlement of the conflict, which the unity government was, at that point Israel does everything it can to provoke a violent reaction—in this case, from Hamas—break up the unity government, and Israel has its pretext. "We can’t negotiate with the Palestinian Authority because they only represent some of the Palestinian people; they don’t represent all of the Palestinian people." And so Netanyahu does what he always does—excuse me, what Israeli governments always do: You keep pounding the Palestinians, in this case pounding Hamas, pounding Hamas, trying to evoke a reaction, and when the reaction comes—well, when the reaction comes, he said, "We can’t deal with these people. They’re terrorists

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[-] 4 points by flip (6816) 2 months ago

I believe in self defense and you believe in killing?

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[-] 3 points by shadz66 (19985) 2 months ago

Wassup with you dude ?! Frothing that OWS won't jump to The Right ?!! STOP advocating plastic violence ; put your back into the long haul & - take heart from others !!! Still your mind & consider :

Re. 'US dictating Israeli policy', you're right. That's not happening. It's the other way around bt nt 4evr.

dum spiro, spero ...

[-] 5 points by turbocharger (1168) 2 months ago

"and you silly fukers should be shot. shot I said."

Because nothing stimulates interesting conversation and brings people into the fold like statements like that!!

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[+] -4 points by shoozTroll (17632) 2 months ago

It's likely a response to folks like you, who ignore their community to foster partisanship wherever and however you can.

Including harassing PMs.

[+] -6 points by shoozTroll (17632) 2 months ago

Trashy, trasy, trashy.

https://occupywallst.org/forum/gazas-torment-israels-crimes-our-responsibilities-/#comment-1038662

Nothing like changing the subject, mid stream to hide your BS partisanship.

Just like your troll buddies do.

--caveat emptor--

On your every breath

[+] -6 points by shoozTroll (17632) 2 months ago

Sure trashy, thanks for proving you knew who freakzilla was all along and proving just how big a liar you really are.

--caveat emptor--

on your every comment.

Only the true trolls will applaud you.

[-] 6 points by shadz66 (19985) 2 months ago

Sadly the only ''proving'' is - of you ; to you ; by yourself !!! Get well soon, snooz !! Mwah !

pax vobis. ...

[+] -6 points by shoozTroll (17632) 2 months ago

Enjoy the comfort of your trolls and bots, and get drunk with your cabal.

Everyone knows revolutions are won by those with more insults.

On that criterion. You win.

[-] 7 points by shadz66 (19985) 2 months ago

Is anyone who isn't a Likud or Democratic Party supporter a 'troll, bot, or cabalist' ?! Fact is ''everyone knows' who and what you are here now !! You have clearly lost the plot imo .. maybe because you are possibly an incorrigible ''PEP'' !!! See the following link for an explanation and critique :

temet nosce ...

[+] -6 points by shoozTroll (17632) 2 months ago

Trashy!!!

Proud to bring you your daily dose of bots puppets and cabals.

Not mention, at least one conspiracy theory a day.

All while lying through his teeth.

---Caveat Emptor!---

He knows no truth.

[-] 7 points by shadz66 (19985) 2 months ago

If you have a single shred of evidence for your atrocious canard .. then as a 'mod' here, it is now actually incumbent on you to take this matter to jart and have me banned !!! Is It Not, snoozie ?!! Otherwise, you are now clearly self-exposed as being a ... vile, dishonest, propagandising, lying, gate-keeping - prick !!!

dorkus maximus, temet nosce - Quod Erat Demonstrandum !!!

[+] -4 points by shoozTroll (17632) 2 months ago

My, my trashy. Your mouth is more foul then those your cabal has been attacking.

Unfortunately, it speaks no truth, these days.

Thinking you can make demands on others, when you make no demands on yourself.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-0TEJMJOhk

You really need to make a tin foil hat.

---caveat emptor---

On your every word and action of your pitiful cabal.

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[-] 6 points by shadz66 (19985) 2 months ago

Post Coup d'Etat Egypt under the long term CIA asset, General Sisi is NOT any kind of honest broker ! Just about everyone who knows about the situation knows that !! You are an ignorant and mendacious toilet-mouthed regurgitator of 'received MSM wisdom' !!!

fallaces sunt rerum species ...

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[+] -7 points by shoozTroll (17632) 2 months ago

Aw trashy, that's so cute.

How about a comment on those Israeli blue swastikas that are being painted on certain doors in the UK?

They get your endorsement.

[-] 5 points by shadz66 (19985) 2 months ago

You really have no idea at all about what's going on in Gaza have you ?! Worse than that you don't want to know !! Worse still .. is you don't want others to know either !!! Ergo - per the OP :

I really have no idea of what you are talking about re. paint on doors, so put up a link and I will look and comment. However, as for your final four words ... IF you lived within 500 miles of me - I would offer you out, man to man and break your jaw or likely die trying, as you would no doubt bring a gun to a fist fight.

You are a Corrosive, Ugly, Rancid, s-o-b. Your real colours are now shown and you are self exposed as a Dem shill, DNC charlatan and Likudnik hate-monger who has infiltrated this forum. I'm not totally sure about who and what you serve here suzie but The 99% & OWS isn't even on, never mind 'top of' the list.

cave - bellum se ipsum alet ...

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[+] -5 points by shoozTroll (17632) 2 months ago

Oh trashy, you do know where you can shove your insults now, don't you?

The real difference is that YOU PRETEND to know a lot of things you are completely ignorant of, because you learn about them on a conspiracy theory web site.

Oh and you've always needed the various crutches of bots, puppets and cabals, to make you lying point.

[-] 7 points by shadz66 (19985) 2 months ago

Re. The Likud Party in Israel and The Democratic Party in the U$A .. is anyone and everyone here, who doesn't tow their line, a 'bot, puppet, cabalist, stalker etc.' now ?! Actually suzie ''YOU PRETEND'' to be a professional and impartial 'mod' here on this forum !! But everyone now knows that you are NOT tho' !!!

multum in parvo ...

[+] -4 points by shoozTroll (17632) 2 months ago

The only one dancing.

Is YOU trashy.

Dancing around the truth, just like your fellow cabal members do on every single subject, while they are busy running those various up and down vote bots.

Here's anther one for you to dance around, since your like to pretend to concerned about the numbers.

http://www.aawsat.net/2014/07/article55334493

Now, about those Israeli Blue swastikas, painted on certain doors in the UK?

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[-] 2 points by shadz66 (19985) 2 months ago

Your opinion was not always so prejudiced and irrational :

The Palestinian's cause 'sells' itself. Ignorance Is NOT An Option. Love & Truth Prevail - eventually ~*~

amor vincit omnia - spero ...

[-] 4 points by turbocharger (1168) 2 months ago

"You cannot sell the Palestinian cause to the average American. It cannot be done."

Another wow moment from someone who is posting on this OWS site constantly.

[-] 3 points by trashyharry (2022) from Waterville, NY 2 months ago

Americans dislike Jews and detest Israelis.Some Americans are aware that Israel is a Rich Foreign Country which the US gives Billions to on account of Israel having bought several Senators.I guarantee that most of my neighbors are aware that Chuck Shumer is one of the US Senators who is owned by Israel.There is no way most New Yorkers who are not Delta Heads could fail to notice that we have only one weak and junior Senator working for us.Chuck Shumer devotes all of his time to protecting and promoting the interests of his Homeland,Israel.It would be a great idea to get rid of him.Hopefully if he was not reelected he would leave New York State and spend the rest of his days emitting huge,smelly farts in The Holy Land.

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[-] 2 points by trashyharry (2022) from Waterville, NY 2 months ago

Around here,they really don't know what Jews or Israelis are.They just know they are different from themselves and the people they know.They dislike Foreigners.They don't like the idea of giving away money to other countries,even poor countries where people will starve without it.Any of them who have been able to understand what Israel is are also aware that Israel would basically run out of ammo and not food.I guess most of these people are Protofacists or John Birch type people-very close to actual Nazis,IMHO.I think it has been proven that very few Americans can even find Canada on a map let alone Israel.

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[-] -1 points by trashyharry (2022) from Waterville, NY 2 months ago

Just way out in the Stix in Upstate NY.As far as living arrangements up here.I'm better off living on a decent sized piece of land than owning a crappy apartment building in a decaying urban area.Either way,still a Provincial Backwater in a state of Accelerated Decrepitude.As for the Residents,in the Country you don't see 'em that often.People in Town are preoccupied by Waiting For the Parents (or sometimes Grandparents) to Die,fooling around with Automobiles and Electronic Gizmos,and engaging in Sordid Love Affairs & Quarrels.They are what you would call Humanists,I guess.They don't understand that things are going to be changing radically very soon.They don't really believe something like Climate Change exists on a scale that is beyond the control of Humans.Even though it's already happening.They are very bewildered by the devastating storms that have lately been cramping the Upstate Style.They are Lamenting for the way our storms Used Ta Be,and wondering What Happened ? It is very sad,but on the other hand,they don't know what's going on around them because-they ALL watch Fox News.They have not been forced to watch Fox News.

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[-] 2 points by trashyharry (2022) from Waterville, NY 2 months ago

LOL-I am not stupid.

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[-] 2 points by trashyharry (2022) from Waterville, NY 2 months ago

LOL-on second thought it just dawned on me-Duh-EVERYONE-must be stoopid EXCEPT you!

[-] 2 points by trashyharry (2022) from Waterville, NY 2 months ago

Wow.You are in a bad mood.But-(whining) It's not my Fault!

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[-] 2 points by turbocharger (1168) 2 months ago

Ya everyone outta be thrilled when his plans for fracking get pushed through and in 20 years theres no clean water.

Schumer is just another opportunist who likes his cozy position.

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[-] 3 points by turbocharger (1168) 2 months ago

??? If I was a fracking supporter, I certainly wouldnt be involved in something like this: http://ideaconferenceusf.org Everything is reserved for this year's, I'm just hoping that the two core organizers have enough time to help me out again. The goal is to get Bosch's geothermal division to headline the event, which according to Jay Egg (whom I personally know and we share the same values with energy http://energyblog.nationalgeographic.com/2014/03/12/why-home-geothermal-systems-might-soon-be-more-affordable-for-u-s-homeowners/ ) is a good possibility.

Regardless how many times some of you here want to recite something, doesnt make it true. And assuming because your obnoxious friend (Ill take crazy and crass over obnoxious and pretentious anyday) posts on it constantly with no reply from people, doesnt make those then supporters. Ridiculous logic like that gets labeled as disruption for a reason.

Whats funny is most of the mainstream conservative people I know call me a bleeding hear liberal, a socialist, etc... Certain trigger words get people on a path that they cant get off. I guess some of us dont really fit into the usual compartments too well, but Im fine with it.

As far as Schumer, most everyone realizes he's useless in NY, hes been there for a while. A few Dems think hes a hero, a few Reps think hes satan, and the other vast majority wishes he would just get out and give someone else a shot. The same trend throughout the nation.

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[-] -3 points by shoozTroll (17632) 2 months ago

How are doing on your plan to take over the Detroit water system??

At least he doesn't hide behind, or false nonpartisanship.

BTW, how's the bar fights going?

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[+] -4 points by shoozTroll (17632) 2 months ago

Shhhh, the alleged British partisan doesn't want to talk about Israeli blue swastikas being painted on doors in the UK, any more than he talks about his beloved libe(R)tarians....Or the actual realities of sharia law all around the World.

He likes to focus on those things that fit his own stanch partisanship.

[-] 3 points by shadz66 (19985) 2 months ago

If you had an ounce of honour as a man .. then you'd have something to say here :

BUT as you are only a sneaky li'l mouse, you just squeak b-s from The Shadows !

temet nosce ..

[-] -3 points by shoozTroll (17632) 2 months ago

Sure trashy, whatever you say.

The bots and puppets will hang on your every lie.

They love your every insult.

They always did.

They love how much reality you ignore to promote your partisanship.

They especially love your conspiracy theories.

[-] 2 points by shadz66 (19985) 2 months ago

Re. your DNC & Likud ''partisanship'', do you regard anyone who opposes that to be 'a bot, a troll or a partisan' ?!!! I AM Partisan !! For The 99% - Everywhere !

ad iudicium ...

[-] -3 points by shoozTroll (17632) 2 months ago

Find the quote trashy, you partisan jerk, or at long last STFU.

Or just move to Florida with hchc, if you weren't there all along.

You can take the stalking fuck Odin with you.

Aw fuck it.

Why wait.

Go now.

--Caveat emptor--

on your every word.

[-] 3 points by shadz66 (19985) 2 months ago

MEDIC !!! Extreme Plot Loss !! Apply a 4x2 to the back of the head & then TLC & a =====##~~' !

spero meliora ...

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[-] -3 points by shoozTroll (17632) 2 months ago

Kidney, or gall?

LOL

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