Welcome login | signup
Language en es fr
OccupyForum

Forum Post: From "Operation Wetback" to Newtown: Tracing the Hick Fascism of the NRA

Posted 11 years ago on Dec. 20, 2012, 6:09 p.m. EST by PeterKropotkin (1050) from Oakland, CA
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

By Mark Ames

Las Vegas, Nevada - I've been writing about these rampage murders for about a decade now, but Friday’s rampage massacre was Different. So I’m going to approach this piece somewhat Differently than I usually do — I'm going to look at what's most obvious.

For one thing, this massacre had pathos, and I’ve never really dealt with pathos like this in all my years researching and writing about these rampage killings. I’m used to digging into a story that has no pathos, and finding it where no one bothers looking, usually hidden in all the obvious places.

But there’s no point in being clever here. The slaughter of so may little children means approaching this from a more "obvious" angle. Also, this isn’t the sort of rampage massacre I studied for "Going Postal," my book that examined workplace massacres in which employees massacre supervisors and/or coworkers, and "middle America" school shootings where middle-class students attack their schools and fellow students.

Until relatively recently, those types of mass-murder were freakishly rare in America; they only appeared at the end of the Reagan Era. First they happened in the workplace, concurrent with the destruction of labor unions and the transfer of wealth and workplace power into few hands. Then, by the late 1990s, the workplace massacres had seeped down into the employees’ children’s schoolyards.

The dead Newtown killer, Adam Lanza, wasn’t a student at the school he shot up, nor did he work there. He apparently suffered from mental illness — no shit he did -- and his mother was reportedly a gun enthusiast, a "prepper" who stored up weapons for the end of the world. There’ve been other massacres like Newtown in the past — where the killer has no direct relationship or grievance to the victims or the site of the shooting, a lone and severely mentally ill adult for some reason chooses to massacre school children in their school. They’re rare and often spectacular. It happened in Stockton in 1989, leading to California’s assault weapons ban; it happened in Britain in '96, leading to a total handgun ban; it happens in China more and more lately, the adult attacker always uses a knife rather than a gun, meaning lower to nil death counts, and astronomical numbers of wounded.

Until now, I have largely avoided getting dragged down into the gun control debate, in part because gun proliferation doesn’t explain why "going postal" first exploded into the culture in the late 1980s, and has worked its way into the American DNA ever since. Gun control or lack thereof doesn’t explain why these kinds of rampage shootings only appeared in the late Reagan era and spread ever since then. And there must have been my own personal prejudices too — I grew up with guns, and despite a couple of bad episodes involving guns and a drunken violent stepfather, I have a reflexive contempt for people who haven’t gone shooting and tell you that gun control laws are the answer. Well, guess what? Their knee-jerk solution is more right than mine. Passing gun restrictions today probably wouldn’t do much to slow down rampage massacres, at least not for awhile — but the politics of sweeping gun control laws could have a huge transformative effect over time. It’s no longer impossible for me to ignore that fact.

Which means it’s also no longer possible for me to ignore the National Rifle Association, and its hick fascism politics that’ve been poisoning our culture ever since the NRA’s infamous "coup" in 1977, when the NRA was taken over by far-right fanatics led by a convicted murderer and onetime US Border Guards chief named Harlon Carter — whose previous claim to fame was when he led a massive crackdown on Mexican immigrant laborers called "Operation Wetback." That’s not a typo by the way.

Two decades before Harlon Carter led "Operation Wetback" he was convicted of murdering a 15-year-old Mexican American boy, sentenced to a three-year prison term (Harlon was under-age himself), before being inexplicably acquitted of all charges and allowed to walk free as if it had never happened. It probably didn’t hurt that Harlon Carter’s daddy was himself a ranking Border Guards official, and that his fate was in the hands of the Texas "justice" system.

Also, his victim was Mexican-American.

Two decades after murdering a Mexican-American boy and getting off scot-free, here is how the official Mormon newspaper, the Deseret News, described Harlon’s "Operation Wetback" scam, in 1954:

Border Patrol Hits Wetbacks For Fare Home McALLEN, Texas (UP) — The border patrol is taking "fare" from 11,000 wetbacks it has rounded up in the lower Rio Grande Valley to take them to El Paso — 800 miles away — for deportation. Most of the wetbacks live on the Mexican side of the lower Rio Grande Valley, only a few miles from where they were rounded up. But the border patrol is taking them 600 miles to deport them and is charging them "fare" for the bus trip.

One farmer told a valley newspaper that border patrolmen took all but $1 from one wetback who was working on his farm to pay his "fare" for the 600-mile ride to El Paso.

Harlon Carter, chief of the border patrol... said it is coming out of the wages they made in the United States.

A few years before that, Harlon was in the news bragging about how he’d protected America from half a million alleged illegal immigrants at the border, doubling his deportation total year-on-year. Piggybacking on McCarthyism hysteria, Harlon Carter — nicknamed "Bullethead" because of the shape of his head — oversaw a huge expansion of his border force, which he said was necessary to keep out "subversives" and "undesirables...’inimicable’ [sic] to the best interests of the country" — singling out "Southern Europeans" in particular, meaning presumably Italians. Like his fellow Texan Vance Muse, it seems Harlan Cater didn’t like Catholics much.

It wasn’t until 1981 that a Texas journalist found the records of NRA chief Harlon Carter’s murder conviction. By then of course that information wasn’t worth much except maybe to confirm that yet another violent hick fascist was in charge of a right-wing pillar in the Reagan Revolution, but there was no way to stop it now.

The thing is, Harlon Carter didn't seem possible if you were awake at all in 1979-80. Most people assumed his type had been driven into extinction, that Harlon Carters only existed in Hollywood caricatures or black-and-white reels from pre-1967... but as Dr. Dolan once put it, "The Coelacanth lives." Without any irony, the convicted murder-turned-NRA chief announced, "You don't stop crime by attacking guns -- you stop crime by stopping criminals."

When Harlon Carter seized control of the NRA in 1977 from the more moderate leader, a Mormon named Maxwell Rich, it wasn’t so obvious that these resurrected Coelocanth monsters were anything more than a grotesque yet passing curiosity, a stark reminder of how rancid America might’ve been without the cultural revolutions of the 60s and 70s. Little did they know.

http://truth-out.org/news/item/13457-from-operation-wetback-to-newtown-tracing-the-hick-fascism-of-the-nra

70 Comments

70 Comments


Read the Rules
[-] 4 points by JesseHeffran (3903) 11 years ago

Very informative article. I enjoyed it immensely.

There is a new book by Adam Winkler, a professor at UCLA. It is about the history of the NRA and is called "Gunfight." It seems like a good read. Did you know that the NRA used to champion for gun regulation before the coup?

[Deleted]

[Deleted]

[Deleted]

[-] 0 points by Shayneh (-482) 11 years ago

Let me ask a question - there are only approximately 4 million NRA members and around 200 million privately owned guns.

Why are there 200 million guns owned by private citizens. As stated above, the NRA only has 4 million members - what do you think the reason the remaining 196 million own guns for?

[-] 4 points by Buttercup (1067) 11 years ago

Uh, there are only 300 million people in the whole country. 200 million of them, 60% of the population, do not own guns! Gun owners own multiple guns. Only about 30% of the population actually owns guns. That would be about 90 million people. Not 200 million people.

[-] 1 points by Shayneh (-482) 11 years ago

Well, I think I phrased that wrong - I was looking at the total guns owned rather then the total population of gun owners. My bad. Mixing up gun totals and population totals.

But you are pretty close around 30% of the population do actually own guns.

[-] 3 points by Ache4Change (3340) 11 years ago

Because they are frightened little bunnies, fearful of everything and who like the illusion of 'freedom' and power that guns confer for personal, psychological and socio-cultural reasons. No one I know is talking about a ban on all weapons and hand guns, but if you think that military-grade, high-powered, assault-weapons are somehow a personal right and suitable for society at large then you are from planet-NRA and there is probably no reasoning with your paranoia. Never Give Up Losing Your Fear! Occupy Love!

[-] -2 points by Shayneh (-482) 11 years ago

Have you ever owned or fired a so called "military-grade, high-powered, assualt weapon", which is not high powered, assault weapon of military grade.

I don't think you have as a matter of fact I don't even think you know anything about high powered rifles.

[-] 0 points by VQkag2 (16478) 11 years ago

So? Not necessary. Not to recognize the need for better safety measures to keep them from criminals and mentally ill.

Right?

[-] 1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 11 years ago

Just to be clear the 4 million members are not owners of just 1 gun. So they are probably responsible for 50 million of the 200 million you mention.

But otherwise, Some hunt, enjoy shooting range (sport). Many are victim of the fear mongering (of minority criminals comin to get them) spewed by repubs to get votes, & The same from NRA to increase gun maker profits.

[-] 2 points by Ache4Change (3340) 11 years ago

The hidden connections between the NRA and 'Guns&Ammo' manufacturing corporations really needs investigating and exposing, because The NRA is a trade organisation pushing their products. Never Give Up Exposing The Cartels! Occupy The Issues! & http://www.nationofchange.org/senator-harry-reid-and-guns-time-take-stand-1356020013 - Solidarity.

[-] 2 points by VQkag2 (16478) 11 years ago

Agreed. Now is the time for that effort. These newest victims (& all those who have come vefore) cry out for justice, & action.

https://www.facebook.com/OccupyTheNRA

[-] 2 points by Ache4Change (3340) 11 years ago

Wayne LaPierre Advocating Armed School Teachers Right Now! Unbelievable!! A Protester Has Usurped The Scumbag! WL is the real monster and I am about to hurl at the bastard's b-s! This crazy shit has to be heard to be believed and I hope someone puts it on You-Tube soon.

Never Give Up Exposing The Scumbags! Occupy The NRA!

[-] 2 points by VQkag2 (16478) 11 years ago

And a 2nd protester! LOL.

He's a joke.

Solidarity with the protesters !!

[-] 2 points by Ache4Change (3340) 11 years ago

Asa Hutchinson is a horse's ass and The NRA idiots won't take any questions after just talking shit at the american people!! Blessings upon both protesters and Medea Benjamin of http://www.codepink.org/ was the second protester! Solidarity With The Protesters! Occupy Those 'Nutty Reactionary Assholes'!

[-] 2 points by VQkag2 (16478) 11 years ago

Armed guards in Sikh temples too? Every movie theatre? I want to shrink the existing police state, not enlarge it.

No shootings in areas with armed guards? huh? Fort Hood? I recently link a couple of police stations that had shootings. NRA is not dealing with reality.

The goal needs to mainly be action to PREVENT this.

[-] 3 points by Ache4Change (3340) 11 years ago

"Firing Back at Extreme Gun Nuts, NRA : No Rational Answer", by Brian Foley : http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article33358.htm

"Big Money, ALEC and The Gun Agenda", by Lisa Graves : http://truth-out.org/news/item/13364-big-money-alec-and-the-gun-agenda

"A Culture That Condones The Killing Of Children And Teaches Children To Kill", by Lucinda Marshall : http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article33328.htm

All from - http://occupywallst.org/forum/on-the-12th-day-of-christmas-your-gift-will-just-b/ - where there are other good links and articles. Never Give Up Exposing Lunacy! Occupy The Issues! Solidarity :)

[-] 2 points by VQkag2 (16478) 11 years ago

Excellent info.

Thx

[+] -4 points by firghtyer (-66) 11 years ago

Support the NRA

[-] 1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 11 years ago

70% of NRA members support closing the gun show loophole & banning assault weapons.

[-] 0 points by shoozTroll (17632) 11 years ago

Why?

There is no reason to.

There was a reason for them many, many years ago, but they have outlived their usefulness.

Now they are nothing more than terrorist thugs.

[-] 2 points by beautifulworld (23771) 11 years ago

"Gun control or lack thereof doesn’t explain why these kinds of rampage shootings only appeared in the late Reagan era and spread ever since then."

"Passing gun restrictions today probably wouldn’t do much to slow down rampage massacres, at least not for awhile — but the politics of sweeping gun control laws could have a huge transformative effect over time."

[-] 1 points by JenLynn (692) 11 years ago

It was before the Reagan years. University of Texas, 1966, Charles Whitman might be the first. Johnson was president. Maybe it's due to more television and movie violence, lower funding for mental health, more entrenched political positions, doesn't matter. I don't think anyone beyond 20 Connecticut families will truly care in a couple of weeks.

Sad that it takes a mass shooting to cause a reaction to a mindless gun policy. We average 87 deaths a day by guns. The number of people killed in mass shootings barely registers on the national body count for a month. No one seems to care because these deaths are spread all across the country. If you want to stop gun deaths you have to eliminate guns. Unfortunately the nation isn't ready to repeal the second amendment. We'll pass regulations that will be ignored by the people already committing the gun violence.

[-] 1 points by Ache4Change (3340) 11 years ago

'When CODEPINK, MoveOn and representatives of other organizations marched into Senator Harry Reid’s DC office on Tuesday, December 18, they wanted a simple answer to a simple question: Does the Senator support a ban on assault weapons and high-capacity clips, such as the legislation proposed by Senator Dianne Feinstein and supported by President Obama and Vice President Biden? It would seem like a no-brainer for the Senate Majority Leader to fall in line with the leadership of his party in backing a modest bill that would ban the sale of weapons that are only good for mass murder. Unfortunately, Reid’s senior policy advisor Kasey Gillette was unable to give an answer.' - by Medea Benjamin, from - http://www.nationofchange.org/senator-harry-reid-and-guns-time-take-stand-1356020013 . Never Give Up! Occupy The Issues!

[-] 3 points by beautifulworld (23771) 11 years ago

It's not surprising, because our "left," the so-called "liberals," or "progressives," have failed us miserably. We really have no real "left" in this country.

[-] 2 points by Ache4Change (3340) 11 years ago

Though rare, I disagree with you here because there is a 'left' but it is just that lately, it has been 'souled out and sold out' - But We Are Here!! OWS Exists! Seeds are being sown here, now and everywhere, in future! Never Give Up! Go Occupy! http://www.nationofchange.org/ Solidarity & Merry Christmas to you.

[-] 3 points by beautifulworld (23771) 11 years ago

If we had an effective left in this country these 75 atrocious economic statistics would not be so:

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article33415.htm

Solidarity to you A4C and much peace and joy to you and yours. And, I too, am pleased that Occupy exists.

[-] 2 points by Ache4Change (3340) 11 years ago

Very Strong Response and Incredible Link! No, we do not have an 'effective left in this country' YET & I accept what you say, but we ARE here, so we seed and hope so the kids may sow, right? Never Give Up! Go Occupy - for as long as it takes! Solidarity for 2013 & http://www.nationofchange.org/coaches-over-common-good-1356104369 .

[-] 3 points by beautifulworld (23771) 11 years ago

Everyone needs to read that list of statistics. And, sadly, as your article points out our priorities need to change. Thanks for that excellent article. We must ponder why and how we ended up in this situation.

"Simply put, many taxpayers are happy to shell out lots of money for a good football team, believing that sports are of utmost importance, and that we therefore must pay for quality. Yet, many of those same taxpayers don't similarly value more important needs like health care, community security, education and infrastructure." Screwed up a little?

[-] 3 points by Ache4Change (3340) 11 years ago

Screwed up a lot, I think & from your important link - 'The mainstream media continues to tell us what a “great job” the Obama administration and the Federal Reserve are doing of managing the economy, but meanwhile things just continue to get even worse for the poor and the middle class. It is imperative that we educate the American people about the true condition of our economy and about why all of this is happening.' Occupy The Arguments! Solidarity to you, OWS, all here and all the 99%. Never Give Up!

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 11 years ago

I am left handed - I am told that means that I am in my right mind. Whoa - is that good or bad - being in your right mind.

Well actually I am kinda amble dexterous. Just stronger left handed - but stronger right footed. Wow I am so conflicted at the moment.

[-] 1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 11 years ago

He is a Gun supporter and an NRA member I think. His constituents are big gun supporters. But he can be turned.

More pressure on all pols. Sustained outrage & protest forreal gun safety legislation.

https://www.facebook.com/OccupyTheNRA

[-] 1 points by Ache4Change (3340) 11 years ago

'Occupy The NRA'! Great! It's about time because they have been occupying american politics for far too long! Thank you very much for that excellent link :) & one for you by the ever excellent, Amy Goodman - http://www.nationofchange.org/lessons-new-town-australia-newtown-us-will-new-thinking-lead-new-laws-1356020437 . Never Give Up Trying To Educate, Explain & Expose! Occupy The NRA!! Solidarity.

[-] 1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 11 years ago

Thanks. Amy rules. Australia(and england) managed this issue appropriately I think because they don't have a right wing party that uses fear of minority crime to garner votes, and an NRA that prioritizes gun profits over people.

We have a major challenge ahead of us. We must strike while the irons are hot.

(Just watched protestor interrupt NRA LaPierres 1st Statement/proposal to add armed security guards at school, LOL SOLIDARITY!!!!)

[-] 1 points by Ache4Change (3340) 11 years ago

LaPierre is clearly a lunatic! I had never heard him speak before! He is the 'evil monster' of 'the criminal class' of which he speaks! This speech must be one of the biggest PR disasters in history and I'm glad that the 'National Reactionary Association' is exposed for what it is! Never Give Up Exposing The Right Wing Scumbags! Occupy The NRA!

[-] 1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 11 years ago

Sure they love more armed guards. More gun sales! that istheir first priority. Also he announced a new program to provide studies consultants to every school in the country.

This is just a jobs program for gun nuts!

!st repub on news says "country disagrees with NRA's proposal to arm teachers, & guns in school"

[-] 2 points by Ache4Change (3340) 11 years ago

'This is just a jobs program for gun nuts!' Exactly! The NRA is just a terrorist organisation as far as I am concerned.To hell with them! Never Give Up Exposing Idiots! https://www.facebook.com/OccupyTheNRA

[-] 1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 11 years ago

They will be sufficiently ridiculed as they should be.

We need to focus our action on PREVENTING these massacres not creating the environment for wild west shootouts.

Morons!

[-] 1 points by Ache4Change (3340) 11 years ago

I agree and strongly recommend this post for arguments, information and some very useful links - http://occupywallst.org/forum/on-the-12th-day-of-christmas-your-gift-will-just-b/ Never Give Up! Occupy The Issues! Solidarity.

[-] 1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 11 years ago

Yes. Thx

[-] -2 points by outlawtumor (-162) 11 years ago

" NRA is a terrorist organisation"

Besides "feelings" what facts or evidence do you base that statement on?

[-] 2 points by Ache4Change (3340) 11 years ago

I feel terrorised by The NRA! No one I know is talking about a ban on all weapons and hand guns but the NRA are defenders of semi-automatic, military-grade, ASSault weapons in the hands of people like the Michigan Militia and any other of the range of 'gun nuts' and reactionary, weekend Rambos, who infest this country! The NRA's only answer to everything is more guns and ammo. The National Reactionary ASSociation feeds off & just adds to the underlying 'terror' in this country! Do you have kids? Are you aware of how 'terrorised' they and their parents feel? By the way, 'feelings' are what make us human!

[-] -2 points by outlawtumor (-162) 11 years ago

Well it seems you are operating on pure emotion without the benefit of reason or logic or valid and accurate information.

This is the problem with making any substantive argument.

The NRA is a legitimate,American organizational entity that is protecting our rights to keep and bear arms.

If you don't believe in the right to keep and bear arms then it stands that your opinion is both negative and biased toward disarming Americans. This is the eventual outcome of the road you are advocating whether you realize it or not.

I believe you don't understand the big picture nor do you want to.

[-] 1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 11 years ago

FEAR mongering terror organization, pretending to be patriotic.

Look how scared you are. Surprised you haven't noticed it.

http://mediamatters.org/blog/2011/12/27/2011-a-year-in-the-nras-insane-paranoid-conspir/185712

[+] -4 points by town (-374) 11 years ago

"FEAR mongering terror organization, pretending to be patriotic" that 's perfect description of the democrat party.

[-] 3 points by GirlFriday (17435) 11 years ago

[-] 1 points by town (-84) 0 minutes ago off your meds? ↥twinkle ↧stinkle permalink


Just because you are required to take meds does not mean that the rest of us are.

[-] 3 points by GirlFriday (17435) 11 years ago

[-] 0 points by town (-84) 1 minute ago your tourettes is kicking in again.

↥twinkle ↧stinkle permalink

I believe that is called low tolerance for ignorant bullshit such as yours. Not tourettes.

[-] -3 points by town (-374) 11 years ago

off your meds?

[-] 0 points by shoozTroll (17632) 11 years ago

Well, the difference is, I provided proof.

You just tossed out some very lame bullshit.

Here's another ounce of proof for you.

http://inthesetimes.com/article/14339/koch_brothers_gun_control/

[Removed]

[-] 1 points by Ache4Change (3340) 11 years ago

You show no grasp of the Second Amendment; of history; of psychology or of other nations! Believe what you wish but it is clear that you are ignoring what I wrote above so I'll repeat that no one that I know is talking about a ban on all personal weapons & hand guns but the NRA are defenders of semi-automatic, military-grade, ASSault weapons in the hands of people who can not possibly have any real need to own these weapons! Go Occupy A Clue - https://www.facebook.com/OccupyTheNRA !!

[-] 0 points by VQkag2 (16478) 11 years ago

The NRA is only interested in scaring people into buying more guns and increasing gun profits.

Now they want to create/profit in consulting services to arm every school, every theater, every church. They want to create a separate armed force that they control & profit from.

And they will continue attempting to get govt funding for it.

You gotta be kidding if you believe their propaganda.

[-] -1 points by outlawtumor (-162) 11 years ago

All you're spouting is propaganda. The NRA is not what you've been BS'd into believing. You are obviously not well informed and perhaps not even well educated.

[-] 0 points by VQkag2 (16478) 11 years ago

Lapierre demanded govt funding for his program in his own words at his news conference on the slaughter ofthe 20 children.

Isn't that "founded" enough.

LOL

I don't think you're payin attention.

[-] -1 points by outlawtumor (-162) 11 years ago

It's hard to stay awake trying to read your tired old propaganda and talking points but I will say this,....Schools ARE publicly funded and logically the children and the facilities welfare, safety should be funded publicly. You can't argue with spending tax payers money,..hell,...you progressives live for ripping off tax payer money.

[-] 0 points by VQkag2 (16478) 11 years ago

You got plenty of unfounded personal attacks on me but no facts to defend you contention about the NRA.

I suppose that simply reflects the impotence of your position.

Lapierre did demand congress allocate whatever resources necessary for the program he was offering to run. (how convenient) consulting fees (we know what a scam they are) and all those addl guns!!!

What a windfall. Are you blind. You gotta be smart enough to follow the money man.

[-] 0 points by outlawtumor (-162) 11 years ago

You have many more unfounded and impotent attacks on the NRA which only demonstrate your obvious lack of facts and information.

Willful ignorance,while making you feel good doesn't do a lot toward furthering an informed and educated opinion which is what you should really strive to convey.

[-] -1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 11 years ago

no body is being disarmed. Don't believe the fear mongering lies of the republicans, NRA & FOX news.

[-] -1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 11 years ago

I don't support giving billions to hire NRA extremist gun nuts to consult, and protect my schools.

Is that the best we can do? Can't we rake some action to prevent criminals and mentally ill from getting guns?

What is the objection?

[-] 1 points by outlawtumor (-162) 11 years ago

Disarming law abiding Americans is not keeping guns out of the hands of the mentally ill or criminals.

[-] -2 points by town (-374) 11 years ago

gun sales started to rise after obama was elected in 2008.

[-] 1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 11 years ago

Because of the fear mongering lies by repubs & Nra. and Pres Obama did not take anyones guns away as they said when they lied.

And no one is talkin about it now.

Pres Obama did expand gun rights in fed public parks. and trains.

No one is comin for your guns.

[-] -1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 11 years ago

What makes you think they're not?

I've read their publications. Crackpot nonsense.

Conspiracy theory bullshit, all down the line.

Nothing but fear mongers. and FEAR is the very basis of a terrorist organization.

Look at how very, very scared you are.

[-] -2 points by outlawtumor (-162) 11 years ago

I see you're not speaking from facts or evidence but rather feelings and emotions also.

The NRA is a proud and patriotic American organization.

You're fear mongering right now,very sad.

[-] 0 points by shoozTroll (17632) 11 years ago

I can't help it you're a crackpot too.

You should get some help for that.

Poor fearful little twit.

[-] 0 points by outlawtumor (-162) 11 years ago

You can't seem to help very much at all especially you temper and lack of information and education.

[-] -1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 11 years ago

I'm trying to help you assuage your irrational fear.

As well as your reliance on a fear mongering, terrorist organization.

Admitting the truth is the first step to over coming your fear.

Won't you please take that first step?

[Removed]

[-] 1 points by Middleaged (5140) 11 years ago

Personal attack on Harlan Carter doesn't really help (Okay just bringing up his adult sleeze words is not exactly an attack). And isn't principal the thing to focus on rather than - Responding in a time of Emotion or Crisis. Shouldn't Cooler Heads Prevail?

Might be a good OWS Post in the spirit (interesting that Reagan years are perhaps a starting point for social turmoil), but I don't see the Writer taking the High Road. I can live without guns. I can give up rights to guns - I just might relocate a bit at some considerable expense.

1) Personal attack, is a cognitive error, distracts us from the debate, focuses on a "Player" and not logical. Harlan Carter is a product of his culture, a murder charge as a minor would be foul play if he was a mexican, sounds like the charge was expunged from his record to give him a chance in law enforcement, logical is that he would follow his Border control mission to cut illegal activity. However no one wants to defend him, but he is just a bit "player".
2) Bait & Switch, this could be a knee jerk reaction to mass murder while saying no not really.
3) Principals, which ones are important here:
a) Public safety, safety of kids, safety of weaker people
b) Right to bear arms, probably is about both hunting, sporting, and defense of self, home, and government. Probably we couldn't fight England today without semi-auto guns. Probably the founders knew that any government could be bad, most governments were monarchs, monarchs attract lobbyists, founders knew this, they knew governments can go bad. Logically semi-autos should be around in case of a Military coup, Junta, or corporate control. Logically.
c) Citizenship: Little Known Principal of Monitoring and Controling your Government. Don't we have a Responsiblity to participate in government, but don'tmost peple ignore their government's activies while governments seem to do things that get little notice and little press. Logically, perhaps we would want semi-auto guns in citizens hands since government has a life and mind of its own, no one is watching, motitoring, we don't get to vote on election debate agendas/important issues/raise referendum issues/call for national votes, and sometimes you can't change laws for a hundered years (like the civil rights act).
4) Logical Regulations, Logical Solutions... No, not in the article. Some good history of English gun control though.
5) Does conservative NRA offset the Corporate-Military Security State that we live in? Only in that it supports the 2nd Amendment, no more than that.
6) ODD, that the author talks about a Coup at the NRA, but doesn't talk about possible Coup in Congress by either Lobbying or Conflict of Interest. Not Logical. Cognitive distortion here.
7) logically weak groups do seem to need protection at different times. What about that. How do gay people protect themselves when alone? How do people that are bullied protect themselves when the bullies rise to full power and fully intend to hurt them? Should weak people always surround themselves with other people, live in populated buildings to ensure witnesses.
8) Is the USA or parts of the USA more dangerous than other countries? Should this be part of the question or issue?

I can live without guns. I think poor people protect each other in other countries through a collective interest, witnessing wrong doing, and not liking the disturbance of crime on their family. Probably not a lot of guns in third world countries compared to the USA. But for those that live in the USA and watch the government wage economic war, conventional war, and covert war... Do you want to give up semi-autos and chance that the US government is only a "nice guy" doing "nice things around the world".

[-] 1 points by bensdad (8977) 11 years ago

the nra does exactly what congress and many churches do -
and w ht most of us do - we do things for the people who pay us


your history lesson is very interesting
I know that today we have alomst one gun per person today
what was that number in 1980?
was there a "he will take away your guns" move by the nra against Clinton like there has been against Obama?

[-] 0 points by shoozTroll (17632) 11 years ago

A Koch and a gun.

Or.....Lies CATO has told you.

http://inthesetimes.com/article/14339/koch_brothers_gun_control/

[+] -4 points by Coyote88 (-24) 11 years ago

You don't like the second amendment? You want to disarm the citizenry? Fuck you.

[-] 1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 11 years ago

no body is talkin about disarming anyone. You are paraniod. Stop believing the fear mongering lies of repubs (who spew it to get your vote) & the NRA (who spew it to increase gun maker profits)

Loosen your tin foil hat. & turn off the doomsday prepper marathon. Nobodies comin for your guns.