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Forum Post: Forty Years of Drug War Failure in a Single Chart

Posted 1 year ago on Oct. 14, 2012, 11:36 p.m. EST by john23 (-272)
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72 Comments

72 Comments


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[-] 1 points by freakyfriday (179) 1 year ago

Zen, there is hope for you. Sometimes you actually make sense. AND you are a gun owner. I agree completely with your observations on the ware on drugs.

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[-] 0 points by freakyfriday (179) 1 year ago

Of course you are. So am I. Most sane people wouldn't say or do things they thought were wrong, That's what makes zealots and ultrtaliberals/conservatives so scary/

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[-] 0 points by john23 (-272) 1 year ago

Yeah, i agree.

[-] -2 points by yobstreet (-575) 1 year ago

True, on the other hand, if they'd legalized forty years ago we'd all be high right now.

[-] 1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

Nah. Drug use would go down if pot was legalized.

More importantly crime would drop, prisoner population would drop, minorities would have more opportunity. Law enforcement would save money, & stop more damaging crimes (maybe fin crimes?)

Take pot from organized crime! Just like we did with Alcohol in '33.

[-] -1 points by yobstreet (-575) 1 year ago

Wait a minute... pot's not a "drug"; more, it's been decriminalized. It's very rare that we see people imprisoned for pot. But you know, very few of those who continue to get high as if some childhood leftover, are productive people.

[-] 1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

It is NOT decriminalized. Police target minorities for pot infractions, judges jail them disproportionately, govt takes away college aid, many states takeaway their rights to vote.

Sorry, You are misinformed.

[-] 0 points by yobstreet (-575) 1 year ago

That's a bunch of crap... they target minorities for illegal weapons. Because they are trying to save lives on the streets of NY. And in the process, they always find drugs.

Who cares if they lose college aid; who cares it they lose the right to vote...

In China, they mass execute these people. For a reason.

I do not know of a single individual who has ever done jail time for weed.

[-] 0 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

What happens in China is irrelevant and a poor excuse to oppess a group with excessive police actions that violate constitutinal rights.

Most recent year (in NYC) there were almost 800K stops. 90% minorities! only a small fraction (less than 10%) resulted in finding, drugs or guns or prosecution.

It is clearly not useful in stopping crime, since crime was going down long before this violation of our civil rights.

[-] 0 points by yobstreet (-575) 1 year ago

They're not excessive - 90 to 95% of all gun crime is committed by minorities.

What is oppressive is telling me I can't carry a sidearm in public to defend myself against the victimization that has been imposed on our society as a mandate of tolerance. I am the oppressed here, and so is my wife, my children, my parents and grand parents, and all law abiding citizens.

Have you ever seen an 85 year old white woman who has been beat half to death in a parking lot by a 250 lb African American for the ten dollars worth of shit in her pocketbook? I have. And if it were up to me, we'd do this old west style - survival of the fittest baby - and you now have ten seconds to live.

It is useful in saving lives; it has already saved hundreds of lives. You know, you don't realize either that the world has changed; it is far less fearful of authority and far more violent today.

[-] 0 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

Nah. It is useless. It creates more crime by alienating entire neighborhoods against the police. We can't resolve the crime problem if we make police the enemy of innocent people.

Adding more guns ain't the answer. Keep your gun. I don't care. but too few guns aint the reason we have crime.

Poverty is the biggest cause.

And I'd like to know the date and city this alleged 250 black gang beat the white 85 year old for her $10.

Because I think it is a lie!

Fear is a useful tool of the racists who want to continue racist laws/police targeting/unfair judicial treatment.

Don't be afraid. There is a way out if we work together.

[-] 0 points by yobstreet (-575) 1 year ago

The beaten 85 year old woman story pales in comparison to others I have.

White America is not afraid; it's angry as hell.

And we are not working together; that is not happening.

[-] 0 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

Don't submit to fear. Open your heart to love.

“Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.” Y

[-] -1 points by yobstreet (-575) 1 year ago

Listen for one second, your "progressive" is but an endorphin high; I want to feel the pain. Because only there will we find solution. We need to confront these problems, meet them head on, not run from them into some safely utopian corner. It begins by saying, "America, we have a problem."

[-] 2 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

Reject racism. It is the only way forward to a better world.

Peace, Good luck in all your good efforts.

[-] -1 points by yobstreet (-575) 1 year ago

No way... you can have you, but I'm keeping me. "Me" is my territory.

This whole conversation about oppressed minorities is absurd; more than 2/3s of all minorities are voluntary immigrants. Here not even the involuntary immigrants are oppressed.

[-] -1 points by podman73 (-652) 1 year ago

Hmm I have a problem with your statement "police target minorities ". I'm not a minority an had a cop try to hit me with distribution charges because I had 4 joints pre rolled. Cops will use whatever they can against you, regardless of your minority status.

[-] 2 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

Regardless of your individual experience. The statement still stands.

You did say the cop "tried" right.? What happened, they don't usually fail.

How did you manage to beat the rap.?

[-] -2 points by podman73 (-652) 1 year ago

My wife is a lawyer! An I learned long ago never argue with cops they are just delivery boys be polite an comply with what thy say but you say nothing and wait till you get your day in court. The more you rage and act out more you dig a grave for yourself. I did have to spend a few nights in jail but walked out free and clean with no record of it happening, when cities are strapped for cash the last thing want are expensive trials

[-] 2 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

So you got off. Surprise surprise. Never happen if you were a minority in the city.

"Couple of nights in jail"? Thats unusual. Why.? Didn't you get arraigned the same day? Didn't you get out at that time on bail? And did you beat the rap when your case came up weeks later?

Doesn't make sense. Are you sure you aren't makin this up to support your argument?

[-] -1 points by podman73 (-652) 1 year ago

Nope got hauled in on Friday nite no Judge till Monday. I beat it when my wife/lawyer talked to the DA and told him how she would handle it, I guess he didn't like his odds and dropped all charges. Keep in mind I don't care enough about you to make up anything. So believe it or don't that up to you my hole point was how you act can affect the outcome of things regardless of minority status, cops are delivery boys who will use anything YOU give them; so don't give them any ammo. They don't make the finial decision about your case but thy an ads bs charges If you act stupid. If you understand how cops work you can find it easier to beat them in court. I'm not real proud to say this but I have more experience dealing with the law than I would like. I've lived in a small town with a crooked sherif

[-] 1 points by Builder (4202) 1 year ago

Not necessarily. There's no shortage of it here, but less people are interested now than way back when.

[-] -1 points by yobstreet (-575) 1 year ago

That's not true - the market for drugs has vastly increased - because more people are doing them now than at any time in our past. And if it were not for fear of both jail and future, most "middle aged" Americans would be high at this very moment; you and I would not be here debating issues because those that are high are but like sheep led to slaughter.

An American sobriety makes "sense."

[-] 1 points by Builder (4202) 1 year ago

You're talking about cannabis, right? Not powders or pills?

Digesting cannabidiols is harmless, and apparently cancer deleting. Plenty of research out there to back that up. If you look at the history of simply growing hemp (which you won't smoke, because it does nothing)

Dupont chemicals petitioned (bribed) the FDA to create a scare campaign filled with lies and propaganda, which ended in the demise of cultivation of hemp. The replacement was cotton. Why? Cotton requires masses of chemicals at every stage of growth, including a poison similar to agent orange, to defoliate the crop prior to harvest. Cotton is profitable for Dupont.

Hemp, on the other hand, requires no chemicals, unless your soil is devoid of life. Things are not as they seem. I was told that US money is still made from hemp fibre imported from Russia, who remain the largest producer of hemp.

[-] 0 points by yobstreet (-575) 1 year ago

This isn't wholly accurate; hemp grown in the US eventually went the way of the tall ships and the rope walk; it had never been highly profitable because we were importing better quality hemp more affordably.

[-] 2 points by Builder (4202) 1 year ago

Here's what your country is missing out on.

http://www.hemp-technologies.com/page33/page33.html

View this video of Henry Ford's first Model-T was built to run on hemp gasoline and the CAR ITSELF WAS CONSTRUCTED FROM HEMP! On his large estate, Ford was photographed among his hemp fields. The car, 'grown from the soil,' had plastic panels made from a mixture of 70% cellulose fibers from hemp whose impact strength was 10 times stronger than steel at 2/3 rd's the weight for better economy (Popular Mechanics, 1941) Alcohol prohibition prevented Mr. Ford from powering his fleet with "plant-power".

[-] -1 points by yobstreet (-575) 1 year ago

I know a lot here are self-interested, personally and financially motivated, but damn, does everybody here have an angle?

[-] 1 points by Builder (4202) 1 year ago

What "angle"? You can't smoke hemp.

The benefits of growing it, as opposed to any other crop, are extraordinary.

The reason it is not grown, is because of BS propaganda by corporate criminals.

[-] 0 points by yobstreet (-575) 1 year ago

I thought hemp was legal in Canada. And I'm not convinced you'd have a problem growing it in the US, either.

[-] 1 points by Builder (4202) 1 year ago

Thursday, 13 January 2005

Washington, DC: The United States is the only developed nation that fails to cultivate industrial hemp as an economic crop, according to Congressional Resource Service (CRS) report published last week. Hemp is a distinct variety of the plant species cannabis sativa that contains only minute (less than 1%) amounts of tetrahydrocannabinol (THC), the primary psychoactive ingredient in marijuana. Farmers worldwide grow hemp commercially for fiber, seed, and oil for use in a variety of industrial and consumer products, including food.

"In all, more than 30 countries in Europe, Asia, and North America grow hemp," the report states, adding that the European Union instituted a subsidy program in the 1990s for hemp fiber production. "The United States is the only developed nation in which industrial hemp is not an established crop."

Federal law makes no distinctions between cannabis and industrial hemp, and makes it illegal to grow hemp without a license from the US Drug Enforcement Administration (DEA).

http://norml.org/news/2005/01/13/us-stands-alone-in-hemp-ban-congressional-research-service-report-says

[-] 0 points by yobstreet (-575) 1 year ago

And how much hemp are we importing?

[-] 1 points by Builder (4202) 1 year ago

http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/RL32725.pdf

Precise data are not available on the size of the U.S. market for hemp-based products. Current industry estimates report that U.S. retail sales of all hemp-based products may exceed $300 million per year. Because there is no commercial industrial hemp production in the United States, the U.S. market is largely dependent on imports, both as finished hemp-containing products and as ingredients for use in further processing.

Under the current U.S. drug policy, all cannabis varieties, including hemp, are considered Schedule I controlled substances under the Controlled Substances Act (CSA, 21 U.S.C. §§801 et seq.; Title 21 CFR Part 1308.11).

As such, while there are legitimate industrial uses, these are controlled and regulated by the U.S. Drug Enforcement Administration (DEA). Strictly speaking, the CSA does not make growing hemp illegal; rather, it places strict controls on its production and enforces standards governing the security conditions under which the crop must be grown, making it illegal to grow without a DEA permit. Currently, cannabis varieties may be legitimately grown for research purposes only.

Among the concerns over changing current policies is how to allow for hemp production without undermining the agency’s drug enforcement efforts and regulation of the production and distribution of marijuana.

In the early 1990s a sustained resurgence of interest in allowing commercial cultivation of industrial hemp began in the United States. Several states have conducted economic or market studies, and have initiated or passed legislation to expand state-level resources and production. To date, nine states have legalized the cultivation and research of industrial hemp, including Hawaii, Kentucky, Maine, Maryland, Montana, North Dakota, Oregon, Vermont, and West Virginia.

However, because federal law still prohibits cultivation, a grower still must get permission from the DEA in order to grow hemp, or face the possibility of federal charges or property confiscation, despite having a state-issued permit.

[-] 0 points by yobstreet (-575) 1 year ago

Ok... so... re-engineer it, remove the THC. And change the name, we're not going to call it hemp anymore.

[-] 1 points by Builder (4202) 1 year ago

Keep monsatan out of this.

The oil from hemp seed could easily replace palm oil for food, drugs, soaps and hair products, as well as completely replacing oil as a fuel for vehicles.

It's such a shame more research isn't allowed.

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[-] -1 points by john23 (-272) 1 year ago

Not necessarily true....like many things dealing with the economy decreminization of drugs is counter-intuitive. Check our portugal as an example...the decrminilized and drug usage went down by about half over 10 years:

http://www.businessinsider.com/portugal-drug-policy-decriminalization-works-2012-7.

Prohibition of alcohol should show that the drug war is somewhat ridiculous.

[-] -3 points by yobstreet (-575) 1 year ago

You make a huge mistake in comparing this country to any other; you ignore cultural idiosyncrasies - Portugal, for example, is historically a Roman Catholic nation with some 139 mortal sins; America has but three... while prohibition fails to prohibit it succeeds in its diminutive.

[-] 1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

Are you arguing we should be more catholic?

[+] -5 points by yobstreet (-575) 1 year ago

Haha.. hell no. America could not have been created by a Roman Catholic people.

I am just saying that we are not possessed of the same cultural mindset and we should not ignore idiosyncrasy. Which in this case would very likely translate to a greater deference to authority.

[-] 0 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

I don't think Portugal has succeeded in the drug decriminalization because of their Roman Catholicism.

How would that affect the approach to drug use?

[-] -3 points by yobstreet (-575) 1 year ago

I'm not even certain Portugal is still Roman Catholic due to Muslim immigration, are they?

It has to do with how the human mind reacts to authority. Roman Catholicism was spread primarily by military force; this coupled with the tyranny of their 139 mortal sins greatly enhanced the ability to impart a greater conformity, which requires a much greater willingness to defer to authority.

That is why our nation could not have been formed in this Constitutional manner by the Roman Catholic; more, it could not have been formed by any other but the "Puritan" as a very specific sect which gave birth to a new religion.

When we impose severe penalty for minor moral infraction there will always be those who will stand in adamant defiance; that is why Roman Catholicism is said to produce more atheists than agnostics. But there is also a much greater overall conformity; if one then removes the restriction the people all fall in line.

Call it a religious tool; it goes to the very heart of how human beings interact, in conversation, on a daily basis.

[-] 2 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

Whatever.

Almost 90% of Portugal is Roman Catholic. The muslims haven't taken over yet. Don't be afraid.

Religion and our proclivity to defer to authority is not related. We are all against abusive police/laws/judicial action.

Decriminalizing drugs, and ending the war on drugs(minorities!) is obviously the right thing to do.

Religion ain't got nothing to do with it.

[+] -4 points by yobstreet (-575) 1 year ago

You are absolutely incorrect; there is a much greater propensity to defer to authority amongst homogenous Roman Catholic populations.

You know, no one could make this stuff up; it is the result of years of thought and study. There have been many, many, light bulb moments. And some things are very surprising.

[-] 1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

I don't believe it. I disagree.

Religion is irrelevant.

Sorry. We will have to agree to disagree.

[+] -4 points by yobstreet (-575) 1 year ago

There is no way I will ever yield in such a pusillanimous manner; we fight to the death.

[-] 1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

"death"? LOL Not likely.

[-] -3 points by yobstreet (-575) 1 year ago

Of course not, I'm exaggerating. For dramatic effect, you know..

[-] 1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

Oh yeah I get it. No biggie. It seems to come easily to you.

I'm a peaceful man. No need for violence. It is not the way. Not even on the virtual forums.

Peace, Good luck to you in all your good efforts.

[-] 0 points by john23 (-272) 1 year ago

I see...the thou are holier than us argument. Don't buy it for a second. Look at the aids rate in Portugal due to needle usage linked with drugs....they had one of the worst in the world. Look at drug usage surveys around 2001....around 7-8% for both Portugal and the US...so the whole notion that because of our ethnic differences they were less likely to use drugs doesn't have any basis in fact.

I think the drug war is more about protecting certain industries, than it is about protecting human beings in this country (especially surrounding marij).

[-] -1 points by yobstreet (-575) 1 year ago

In the process of legalizing drugs are we also going to legalize all drug related crime? Because unless it's an A1 stash, we generally do not put people in jail for possession - we put them in jail because they have committed a crime. That is the one great fallacy of an NAACP styled argument; these people are there for victimizing others and the overwhelming majority have ever lengthening records.

But look, I'm not interested in lengthy debate; I am interested in immediate solution. And since I was one of the individuals who raised the very question initially, I am willing to concede; we'll call it a social experiment and assign it a twenty year trial period.

[-] 2 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

Plenty of people are targeted by dealers,& police,and unfair laws/judges & put in jail for possession.

No violent crime necessary. Just having pot. Especially a larger amount.

You are sadly mistaken and misinformed.

[-] -1 points by yobstreet (-575) 1 year ago

Actually, no, I am very well informed on these issues.

[-] 2 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

Well your comments regarding who is incarcerated are wrong.

So if it ain't that you are misinformed then are you suggesting you are being less than honest?

[-] -1 points by yobstreet (-575) 1 year ago

They are not wrong and I can provide thousands of incarceration records to prove it.

[-] 2 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

Please.

Just racist republican fear mongering lies.

Most drug related incarcerations are non violent small quantities, and destroys lives for no good reason.

Just part of the continuation of the 400 years of oppression of minorities.

[-] -1 points by yobstreet (-575) 1 year ago

Will you knock it off with the holier than thou racist as a lesser being crap?

It's just nonsense. You know, there are people in this world who are not the same color that you are, and actually color is too strong a word - they are not the same "shade" that you are. You need to get over this.

400 years of oppression... that's a f*cking joke; if anyone is oppressed it is us.

[-] 1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

"holier than thou"? can't knock that off cause I ain't saying I am better than anyone.

My opinion is clearly that the justice system in regards to drugs laws is an extension of the continued effort to oppress minorities.

I guess you disagree. That don't mean I'm saying I'm betterthan you.

We just disagree. 'Sok. It Happens. I think you are a republican who supports the oppression that the war on drug represents.

I am a progressive who knows we must make major correction in our approach to dealing with all minorities if we are to improve the society for ALL races.

And I'm an atheist. Nothing holy about me boss.

LOL

[-] -1 points by yobstreet (-575) 1 year ago

We're "oppressing" them because they're a bunch of druggies who continuously victimize the innocent.

I think minorities need to make corrections in the way they deal with us.

And I think our drug laws are much too tolerant; if it were up to me we'd be invading Mexico, bombing drug palaces, and executing dealers in the public square.

[-] 0 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

More war? Violence is not the answer!

Most drug users are white.!

Most minorities do not do drugs!

The war on drugs targets minorities, ignores the white majority drug users, and is an extension of the 400 year oppression of minorities.

[-] 1 points by nomdeguerre (1775) from Brooklyn, NY 1 year ago

The purpose of the drug war is to keep the prices high. The criminal cabal has no concern about societal, family or individual repercussions. The so-called war on drugs is a smoke screen for vast, vast evil.

[-] 0 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

Drug war, which began just as the voting rights act & desegregation was being implemented is an effort to anesthesize minorities,jail minorities, takeaway their opportunities, take away their vote,

It is a plan to continue the oppression of minorities that has been going on for 400 years.

[-] 0 points by nomdeguerre (1775) from Brooklyn, NY 1 year ago

It is a many faceted evil.

[-] 0 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

Bastards!!!

We must protest against stop n frisk & police brutality, against votes taken from felons, against pell grants taken away for pot infractions, against unfair prison terms for pot infractions, against moving (& census counting) into suburbs.

Can't let up. Decriminalize now!!

[-] 1 points by nomdeguerre (1775) from Brooklyn, NY 1 year ago

Free the marijuana prisoners! Decriminalize pot. Educate all about medical marijuana.

OWS should take this issue up -- it would reach right across the U.S., to both red and blue states.

[-] 0 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

It might. It certainly needs to be a major focus of large protests.