Forum Post: FBI cracks down on "sovereign citizens"
Posted 12 years ago on Feb. 9, 2012, 5:44 p.m. EST by hoot
(313)
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I don't know if any of you guys know the group sovereign citizens. They are a group of anti government people that live all across America, they hate paying taxes, basically right wing anarchists that formed in the 1970s. anyway the fbi is calling the domestic terrorists...
http://www.fbi.gov/news/stories/2010/april/sovereigncitizens_041310....
there have been 30 arrests total im pretty sure among sovereign citizens i cant find there whole history, but still if the fbi can call them domestic terrorists, why cant they do the same for the occupy movement... also NDAA plays a key role here which is why i believe the fbi is finaly talking about domestic terrorism
anyway thought this was intersting and would love to hear your thoughts
There is such a thing as domestic terrorists. Remember Timothy McVeigh! I saw nothing in what I read that indicated that the FBI was using the Patriot Act against these guys. Maybe you need to provide another link, or are you just trying to stir things up?
not trying to stir things up, i just thought it was interesting and comparable to ows...also in reaction to recent policy changes i.e ndaa acta patriot act etc
Well, if you say I'm not an American citizen so the law doesn't apply to me and you start cheating people and breaking laws, I would hope the FBI would be watching you and infiltrating and arresting you because you're a criminal gang at that point.
Fear troll.
really? ok well then everything is doing great in this world we should talk about anything that could happen because then we'd just be fear trolls
I understand your feelings here, but I think it helps to try to focus on constructive means of change. It's hard to know what effect we can have directly on the actions of the FBI. There's a process we must go through here, and it would be better to try to find ways of advancing that process. If you are posting this out of legitimate concern I share that, but let's try to keep moving forward.
i agree with you but i think its very important to stay aware of plans to destroy this movement.
Yes, so do I! I think one immediate thing we can do is sign petitions. The more the better. I agree completely with you that no grounp in America, whether left or right, should be subjected to arrest, of violation of privacy for their purely political views, and that we should take these actions very seriously.
they can do the same.. and im sure they will before its all over.. they are starting now with people that they see as easy targets.. they will insidiously start to prohibit more and more the voices of dissent until no one has the courage to speak up any more. if they are allowed.. and people will allow it cause they dont understand the big picture. there is a long and scary road ahead if we actually want to change things
What is the big picture...pray tell?
the rich are trying to turn america into a third world country
Not quite TRUE. You see this is the Government doing these things. Yes they are easy targets, but yes what you see is the demonization of groups that have no power. But believe me if you don't "Speak Up", to save these boys, .. who will be there when they come for your white ass?
This is how Hitler did it, he picked away a certain groups, until he had no opposition.
This has NOTHING to do with the rich, they don't pay taxes either, this is about the little-guy not paying his taxes. The GUBMIN is owned by the rich, this is true.
But the IRS/FBI/DHS, ... they pretty much go after who-ever they wish, also April 15 tax time is coming,... and they simply have these story's to scare people.
But lastly and this is MOST important of all, that originally these terrorist laws we were told were only for the bad sand-niggers, you know arabs, .. terrorists, muslims,.. Now we're seeing these laws being applied to the white guy next door, and you will be next.
who the rich boys? the ones that would let you die if it cost a nickel of thier money to save you? i totally agree about the government, im all for a complete overhaul there.. ive always thought that every little law the people agreed to in order to restrict the freedom of thier neighbors have accumulated into this. but you cant make people understand that when they are crying about every little annoyance and discomfort that should be oulawed. and the rich dont care cause they do not have to obey laws anyhow up there in the ivory tower. no the rich people are the ones that have to speak up and they dont.. and they wont cause it might cost them some money.. they will be happy to take all there is and leave the rest of us to live in tin shanty towns and beg for bread. they are not gonna help now and they will not help then
DUDE
You have a BIG mis-understanding about USA.
It's always been a 3rd world country, and its always for 200+ years been ran by rich white men, listening to you folks is like watching kids waking up from a horror movie, only to find that its all true.
This shit is not new, the USA is a failed prison-colony. Just like Australia.
i see.. so you think that going from bread lines,, child labor and living in shacks to everyone employed , kids in school and decent housing was third world? no. but it will return to that soon if nothing changes
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These clowns get arrested for shooting cops over a traffic stop, from time to time.
In the words of "rummy", "these are not nice people".
Anyone find it strange that Mr. P, thinks they're just fine?
It's been a month or two since I spent much attention on this site. Now that I'm back to glance around again, I'm finding people sticking up for the sovereign citizen's movement, people with conspiracy theories about the Queen of England secretly running the social security system, and people talking about the "Mexican government's official plan for a takeover of America".
Res ipsa loquitur.
It has gotten rather bizarre at times..................:)
Some one should be saving this stuff for a script writer. There's got to be half dozen 'B' movies in all this.
I heard the NYCGA is preparing to sell this site to Alex Jones. Most of all the good posters are gone. The only people left are conspiracy theorists. Are you a Reptilian Overlord paid by the Rockfellers?
I think I'm being paid by the ghost of Nelson Rockfeller, 'cause the checks are kind of thin..................
Ah Nelson. Remember him?
The first VP to shoot the bird for the cameras.
It's not strange you want your goverment to crush them. And you call others fascist....
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Guess who will be their Keynote speaker for a four day gathering in CA? That's right Ron Paul. These people believe we are better off going back to the 1800. Terry Nichols was a sovereign Citizen....
ok well i happen to support ron paul more than i would any other candidate running in the two party system although i wont vote for him id rather him to obama. i understand terry nicolas was a sovereign citizen the occupy movement has had its problems to with the rapes and murders not too mention the most recent killing of two parents that adopted some kid who at the age of 15 decided to run away to occupy oakland when his parents told him to stop he killed em. so to say your movement is less radical than sovereign citizens is bull. Enough with the anti libertarian rhetoric. accept that libertarians are part off the 99%
If you hate OWS why are you here then??? You are truly a hoot...learn about history and the roots of the sovereign citizen movement, not from Alex Jones.
i dont hate ows at all when did i ever say that. im just comparing these two movements 1 of which is being targeted by our federal gov. I dont think its too far off to say that ows may go through the same thing with the fbi
Most of your reply to me is an attack on so called OWS members/participants, I guess I misunderstood. My bad.
thats my fault i try not preach in my posts, i apologize if i attacked you
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Under the Constitution we the citizens are sovereign, so what exactly is going on here?
The FBI is a criminal organization founded by an evil, corrupt self-hating homosexual who surrounded himself with corrup psychopaths. J. Edgar was even featured in the show American Gangster.
The FBI is not really American, they don't share our values. Laugh at them.
Here's the link that you tried to post:
http://www.fbi.gov/news/stories/2010/april/sovereigncitizens_041310
That's two years old.
Article V can fix it. Until we, the citizens of states, assemble peacefully in our states to demand those state legislations enforce the US constitution upon the federal government by convening delgates for an Article V convention, the FBI and others can do as they want.
Yes, now we're talking. Also, Bernie Sanders is promoting a constitutional ammendment to end corporate personhood. We should support all such efforts until we achieve the change we demand.
efficiency should point towards the money
and that should be the corps
what do you mean?
corporation often feel they are entitled to not pay tax
That was a conversation with yourself if i have ever seen one.
ah i see yes they have the best of all worlds
Right wing, left wing, they are all after the same thing...pieces of the American pie without having to answer to anyone!
Domestic terrorists come in all shapes, creeds and colors. I can't see anything more terrorizing than putting women, children, babies, the sick out on the streets to grovel, suffer and die within this so-called land of plenty.
Yeh...plenty of left wingers and right wingers...sounds like a chicken feast to me!!!
They must have a lot of followers because based on what I read in the FBI report they have a lot of money.
Are there that many stupid people out there or are there that many people out there who are fed up with state/federal encrochment on our rights and liberties?
This is interesting to me because back in 1997 a Jumbo loan qualifying (qualified at that time for over $1M loan amount) client of a mortgage broker (in my office then) was a so called 'Sovereign Citizen' who drove a car with no plates and whenever stopped by police would flash his 'Sovereign Passport' and other supporting legal documents as a 'Sovereign Citizen' claiming that he no longer paid US Federal or State taxes since he was no longer a US Citizen. He loaned a set of books about how to become a 'Sovereign Citizen' and encouraged any who would listen to check it out.
Apparently there is a legal way to 'do it right' as far as becoming a 'Sovereign Citizen' but nobody in our office was willing to forfeit our US Citizenship in trade for the obvious red tape necessary to maintain 'Sovereign Citizenship.'
To be sure there are two ways to be a 'Sovereign Citizen' the one that dots the proverbial legal 'i's' and 't's' and the one that doesn't and therein lies the chance of some claiming 'Sovereign Citizenship' being identified and pursued by the FBI.
What makes them "right wing anarchists"? Anarchists are left wing by nature.
no anarchists are not left or right by nature.
Nope.
Anarchists are more like Libertarians. Both result in the same sort of end, oppression. Anarchy results in oppressing the minority through direct democracy. Libertarianism results in oppressing the majority with unrestrained free market capitalism and unregulated everything.
well i see your point however i disagree, i would argue that a controlled market with massive amounts of regulation (like today) oppresses the majority
Controlled markets? We've been on a deregulation binge for like 20 years. You think it was a good idea to de-reg the banking industry?
You must love Alan Greenspan who thought that the banking industry could police itself in the best interests of their shareholders.
Investment banking firms like Bear Stearns and Lehman destroyed themselves by going public and for lack of regulation. The existed for like 100 years as partnerships! Because the partner's money was on the line! They only destroyed themselves when they went public! Because bankers cannot control themselves from greed, even as they are responsible to their shareholders. Only, when it affects themselves, might they act in a responsible way.
This would suggest that for deregulation to work, a CEO's life would have to be on the line, for the long run, not just the short run, make big bucks and cut out.
And how would you prevent greedy unscrupulous persons in certain industries like oil and gas, and others, from harming the environment for instance, without regulation?
There will always be greedy people as a part of capitalism. So there has got to be regulation to protect the rest of society from this greed.
so what regulations would you put on the banks? also remeber those bailouts, that wouldn't exist in a free market TOO BIG TOO FAIL? that doesn't exist in a free market
Regulation is about prevention! I don't give a shit about after the fact bailouts. The damage was already done. Bailout or not - it wrecked the economy for God's sake.
What regulation would I put on the banks. Easy. Glass-Steagall. Prevention! Worked for like 70 years. No major financial crisis. You think it's just a coincidence that 9 years after it's repeal there was one of the most major financial crisis in the history of the world? It could still turn out worse than the Great Depression. It's not over yet. There still is not any major reform in place to prevent this or something similar from happening. In say the derivatives market even. Nothing.
Also, I think that it should be mandatory that investment banks be partnerships. Like they used to be. This also worked well for many many years. No major investment bank crashed until they went public.
Libertarian financial principles work great, in theory. It just sounds. good. Give me an example of how it works well in practice. How do you restrain greed? You think greed will just disappear? Like magically?? You think the fact that some greedy banker cannot count on the fact that there will be a bailout is going to prevent the greed? You think moral hazard is going to stop bankers from being greedy? Or oil companies from destroying the environment? Or just good old fashioned responsibility and ethics is going to do it? People are always going to do the right thing? That is pure fantasy. What kind of la-la land are you living in, that you think everyone is always going to do the right thing?
There is no way I want to live in a country with no regulation, where I have to trust everyone to always do the right thing. That is truly frightening. I'll take tons of regulation over that nightmare scenario any day!
All markets are controlled, whether you like it or not.
There is no "free market", there never was, nor will there ever be.
It's just question of who is doing the controlling.
yeah and thank goodness! But to leave it to the Libertarians, I think they would get rid of all regulation if they could. It would be free market chaos to let the Libertarians have their way.
I agree, and it's one of my main beefs with libe(R)tarianism.
They act as though all freedom and liberty are derived from the illusion of "free markets", yet they refuse to admit the illusion.
Theory v practice.
Well for those morally bankrupt people that want to gamble at the Wall Street Casinos, most couldn't care less if you carelessly and recklessly throw your money away.
I sure don't care if they rob you blind and can only recommend you looking for sympathy between shit and syphilis in the dictionary.
Grow up and learn to handle your own wealth. Our republic never had any business being involved in your financial affairs or inept handling of your money.
If somebody breached a contract with you, and hopefully your agreement was written in simple plain English that you understand and can prove they wronged you, then exercise all due process to glean a fair and equitable remedy.
Protect society from "this greed"?
Amazing, you claim to be protesting wall street and hypocritically, over 55% of citizens still have their retirements and savings invested with known criminals in the hopes they will do something most simply cannot do for themselves, grow and increase it.
Safer would be to bury it in the sand at low tide.
There is about 9 trillion of private money these bastards can and will eventually get from all of you.
Many have the good sense not to hand over their hard earned, preferring instead to exercise their own stewardship of what they have.
Besides, growing your wealth off the backs of poverty paid slaves, regardless if wally world employees or commie slaves, is morally reprehensible and only for the most inept or greed motivated morally bankrupt.
And I don't care if more than 1 citizen in 2 thinks it's just fine. It's not and never has been.
Anarchists are socially left, economically right I suppose.
The leftists (most regular posters here) will hate them and want them killed. If they are anti government then the left hate them.
"Sovereign citizens" in the sense that they are a government unto themselves, co-equal? And therefore capable of legally denying the Fed its taxes, right? And you think, what, that they are "right wing anarchists"? LOL!!!
They sound rather anti-establishment; do you think we should label them as "right wingers"?
Their roots are from the far right....please do some RESEARCH!!!!
I'm really not too interested in the Sovereign Citizens. Aren't we all but a government unto ourselves? And as long as we're paying our taxes, does anybody really care?
The concept of a sovereign citizen may have originated in the Posse Comitatus movement as a teaching of Christian Identity minister William P. Gale. The concept has influenced the tax protester movement, the Christian Patriot movement, and the redemption movement—the last of which includes claims that the U.S. government uses its citizens as collateral against foreign debt.[4] Supporters of the movement provide explanations of how to declare sovereignty through the government.[citation needed]
Gale identified the Fourteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution as the act that converted sovereign citizens into federal citizens by agreeing to a contract to accept benefits from the federal government. Other commentators have identified other acts, including the Uniform Commercial Code,[5] the Emergency Banking Act,[5] the Zone Improvement Plan,[6] and the alleged suppression of the Titles of Nobility Amendment.[7]
They are right wing in the sense that they lean toward small government. The left believes in government control of the population. Yes they are anti establishment but that is because the republicrats are the establishment. And that is another difference. The left still thinks the democrat party is the answer to our problems.
That is not a true statement about the beliefs of the left. What party is currently embatled in peoples private lives? The right. That is controlling. The left wants government to serve the people by enacting regulations that protect people and the environment and our resources from abuses. The right wants to protect rich people and their ability to abuse us and our national resources as was the case in the past.
You are so ignorant it is almost cute. You just keep on thinking that about the left.
I don't know of them personally; perhaps they are all right wing. And you are correct; the GOP is viewed as "establishment."
well really any part of government is part of the establishment the democrats too, there are very few people within the establishment that want o change it but some are republican and some are democrat, party shouldn't matter what matters is our government is overstepping its boundaries and corporations overstepping their boundaries, both severely intervening with our lives.