Forum Post: DON’T TREAD ON ME! (Except for all you capitalists, CEOs and rich guys: tread on me all you want!)
Posted 11 years ago on Oct. 2, 2012, 1:10 p.m. EST by struggleforfreedom80
(6584)
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We’ve all seen it: Ordinary working class people showing up at Tea Party rallies with their yellow Gadsden flags and “No Big Government” posters.
Well, there’s a BIG problem here. They completely fail to focus on another form of concentrated power which is much more dominant, namely concentrated PRIVATE power. Being skeptical to a growing government and power being concentrated too much in the state is fine, but not addressing the enormous concentration of wealth and power that’s in the hands of the corporations and the financial elite, is a big mistake.
This kind of concentrated power is very dangerous and destructive. It must be addressed as well. The government can at least be run in a democratic way, with the population having some say in the decision-making. Concentrated private power however, is tyranny: Non-elected wealthy elites having enormous control and power over our lives. They control the corporations, they have huge bargaining power, and they have the overwhelming power in the economy. These people have enormous control over our lives – undemocratic control that is, because we’ve never voted for them.
These financial elites, especially in the United States, don’t just control the economy and our workplaces, they also control government to very large extent. Congressmen, presidential candidates etc are bought and paid for by these people.
So in other words, ordinary people are shooting themselves in the foot by ignoring the corporate tyranny and dominance. By only demonstrating against government and worshiping politicians supporting this view, they are demonstrating and voting against their own interests. Meanwhile the Koch brothers and the rest of the financial elites are laughing all the way to you know where.
It’s not big government that’s the problem, it’s concentrated private power who owns government, and control our lives and communities.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYxGkFxb7f4&feature=plcp
Congressmen, presidential candidates etc are also from the elite class
Oh sure. My point was that big business staffs government. They will of course not put some radical marxists in power, but instead often someone from their own ranks.
I'm not sure a fight for fair campaign funding will make a difference
Yeah, you've got a really fucked up political system in the U.S. with all this money involved. I feel bad for all you guys. But just keep on organizing, and things will change for the better sooner or later!
You feel bad for us? Well I got news for you we rule the world so our fucked up system fucks the whole planet!
So maybe you should help with the organization. It's to your benefit too.
Oh, I'm aware of US foreign policy. It's pretty bad as well.
The people who have the biggest opportunity to change US policy, foreign and domestic, is the US population.
No doubt. and for us it is a long shot!
The system in america is not sustainable, serious changes must be done at some point in the future.
We're trying but the 1% plutocrat control is enormous and the resistance to change is massive.
No one gives up power easily.
"Never be deceived into thinking the rich will allow you to vote away their wealth." Lucy Parsons
We have to do it even though they disagree.
That's why it's so important to make this movement grow. Hang in there!
I ain't giving up. I been marching all my life, and I'll have to for the rest of my life.
Such is life.
Preferably before we all die from corpoRAT abuse.
Yeah hopefully. These right wing policies are in fact a real serious threat to species survival. The destruction of the environment is getting more serious by the day, it can't go on like this for much longer.
As I have said before - it is funny ( not ha ha ) that this is coming to a boil at the end of the Mayan calendar.
It's the beginning of the end...of capitalism!
One can Hope - the end of crapitalism would be awesome.
Absolutely. I am however not looking forward to the enormous hangover I'm going to have when I'm done celebrating.
Yea yea it's only the right wing that got things to this point...... Oh wait I forgot this a Obama re-election camping site. You see there is no way our troubles are cause by both parties..........sad just sad.
"Yea yea it's only the right wing that got things to this point"
It's the right wing policies that are being carried out. Obama's not a leftist, he's at very least center right. Compared to many european countries Obama's policies are to the far right. Bill Maher once said that "the Democrats have moved to the right and the right have moved into a mental hospital" I understand his point.
"Oh wait I forgot this a Obama re-election camping site."
I don't agree with that. However I'm all for voting for Obama (in swing states) - but simply just for the reason that the alternative is so incredibly awful. He's the lesser of two evils.
"You see there is no way our troubles are cause by both parties..........sad just sad."
The US is a one party state - The Business Party with two fractions.
Ahh the lesser of evils argument, that is not much of an argument is it? Sorry your still voteing evil and continuing the status quo you can think he will do what you this time if he's elected but he's just like all the others nothing different. It's kinda hard to claim the high ground when you still advocate voteing for evil, you may want to keep that in mind when you rant about one side of the pribablem only.
Of course it's an argument. If you're in a situation in which the outcome is going to be either x or y, and y is much worse than x, then you're going to try to influence that x will be the outcome. That's just logical.
It's really sad that people are in a situation like that, but one must look at reality and try to make the best tactical choices. I think it's important that people do the things that will most likely lead to the loss of Romney/Ryan. Voting Obama in swing states would be an important factor.
The political system in the US is pretty rotten, so it's the work one does in between elections that can really change things in the long run (which OWS correctly has understood)
it's the two party all or nothing lock that determines who gets elected not the money
That's also a factor, but money in politics is a huge problem in the United States:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=suVPWNo4rcM&feature=plcp
all governments spend money
the amount that goes to political advertising is miniscule when compared to the government budget
super pacs and corporate funding has enormous influence. Did you watch the video?
no
corporations determine our jobs because they have money to pay us that we don't
Please do.
And it shouldn't be that way. Corporations are illegitimate institutions, they should be dismantled so that they're not a part of politics (or anything else)
If you are not a citizen of the US then fuck off. Mind your own business.
First of all. The economy is to a large extent global, policies in the US don't just affect Americans. Secondly, have you ever heard of a thing called soldarity? I want the conditions for the american workers to improve, and I make some contributions as to how we should approach this.
If you have objections to that, then that's your problem.
You define the term "Ugly American".
How wonderful. Foreigners that talk shit about this nations problems need to mind their own business. Perhaps they do come from a wonderful society. Good for them. They have no business here.
all nations are on the same planet
But they are not the same. That is what makes the difference.
I welcome SFFs contribution. I am a US citizen, but you are an embarassment. It's called the world wide web for a reason. SFF comes from a nation where the average citizen is doing a lot better than ours are. Maybe you should try to learn something.
Hi. Thanks for that.
I wrote an article about Norway some months ago. Here's the link If you're interested:
http://occupywallst.org/forum/welfare-and-workers-rights-in-norway/
I saw that you had posted in Norwiegen with a web search.
What exactly are you referring to?
I was refering to this, or is this not you? http://struggleforfreedom.blogg.no/
Yeah, that's me. There's a misunderstanding here I think. I thought you meant that you've seen texts/articles written in norwegian by me.
Actually, I guess I still don't know if you are Norwiegen, since you just said you live in Norway.
No, I just noticed that some of the material on your blog was Norwiegen. I hadn't realized that you had stated you were Norwiegen until you sent me that last post. I just made an assumtion.
Your assumption was correct. I'm Norwegian.
I don't get this. It's pretty reasonable that also people living outside the US are concerned about US policies, don't you think?
Are you concerned about the policies of Iran? or North Korea?
It used to be called the Robber-Baron class.
I like "aristocrat" because it's greek
Yes, unelected corporate tyranny rules the day far more thoroughly and effectively than elected government. Ipso facto, we have a Plutocratic Oligarchy in this country, not a Democratic Republic. This PO operates as a not-too-well-hidden "Black Ops" confederacy of super-wealthy power-elite, otherwise colorfully known as the Illuminati. The Koch brothers are poster child representatives of this PO. Others are not as well known, but equally influential/dangerous.
Could not have said it better myself! Thanks Underdog!
Hear, hear!
Tea Baggers should be against this: http://mikelofgren.net/articles.html
Meet the Welfare Queens of the 1%: The Moochers Mitt Missed Work for the Pentagon Published Wednesday, 26 September 2012 09:32, Truthout | Op-Ed | Link to the article
Forget the laid-off workers, disabled veterans and elderly retirees. Pentagon contractors are far more dependent on taxpayers to pay their way than Mitt Romny's fabled 47 percent; and rest assured, Mitt can count on their support. Mitt Romney's recently-exposed statement disparaging nearly half of all Americans as hopelessly dependent on government may actually make a valid point, however churlish it may seem on the surface. To be sure, the Republican presidential nominee was most likely denouncing purported scroungers and moochers like the unemployed person who rakes in a princely $293 a week on average from unemployment insurance, or the 60-percent disabled veteran who is dependent on government to the tune of $1009 a month.
But if Mr. Romney were to broaden his focus, he would find that there are welfare queens beyond his imaginings. In the last four years, Wall Street moguls such asJamie Dimon and Lloyd Blankfein have reaped tremendous public scorn for their outsized paychecks, so their transgressions are not exactly a secret. At least in theory, however, bankers operate private enterprises not dependent on the taxpayer (that is, in good years when the government is not bailing them out). Their executive compensation - again, in theory - is a voluntary concession by shareholders. Whether, for that matter, a financial institution - the deposits of which are insured by the federal government - ought nevertheless to submit to executive compensation limits is an argument for another day. After a tremendous response to his commentary on Truthout, Mike Lofgren has released a new book, "The Party Is Over." In it he explores what he calls the "company town" of Washington DC, where "the company's products are politics and military hardware." Receive a copy from Truthout with a minimum donation of $35 - or a monthly donation of $15.
That said, there is no dispute about the status of major Pentagon contractors, their utter dependency on government, and their outsized profiteering. Lockheed Martin, the largest contractor, receives about 85 percent of its revenues from US Governmentcontracts. Government sales accounted for more than 90 percent of revenue toNorthrop Grumman, the fourth largest contractor, during the last three years.
Unlike the cases of Dimon or Blankfein, I doubt one American in a
This is what happens when you have major corps spplying the news to an alredy ill informed electorate. They get people to vote for their demise feeding misinformation with a healthy dose of fear.
Yeah, it's a vicious circle. It must be stopped.
Have you seen "Manufacturing Consent"?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3AnB8MuQ6DU
No I haven't. I bookmarked he link and will watch when I can.
[Deleted]
Glad you liked it.
I don't have time to watch the videos right now, but if these are the works of conspiracy theorists, then I'm not interested.
I don't see the Tea Party as a big threat-yet. They're constitutionalists and they don't believe in redistribution of wealth. They're not interested in social issues either. They aren't going to change any more the Occupy is. What I don't like about the TP is their "go after the weakest of the herd" mentality. The TP believes there's always a victim so don't be it. This is worse, in my book, than the obnoxious scapegoating tactics of the dems. The TP may be useful at some point because they can be taught to speak the language of Occupy. Occupy endorses ideas, not politicians. Deal with it Tea Party.
I think what Chomsky says about the Tea Party people here makes a lot of sense: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h2zYaKXeyXE
OK....stay with me here...
If the rich and powerful elites are controlling the government, and we reign in the government and curtail the government's influence in our lives, we by DEFAULT limit the amount of control the "rich and powerful elites" have in our lives. Failing to demonstrate AGAINST the government is shooting yourself in the OTHER foot as well as a kidney and a lung.
I know it's really, super hard to understand. It might take you a while to grasp such a difficult concept.
“If the rich and powerful elites are controlling the government, and we reign in the government and curtail the government's influence in our lives, we by DEFAULT limit the amount of control the "rich and powerful elites" have in our lives.”
By limiting the state and government, and not addressing private tyranny, private tyranny will still have enormous power.
“Failing to demonstrate AGAINST the government is shooting yourself in the OTHER foot as well as a kidney and a lung.”
As a libertarian socialist I’m not a big fan of big government, but as long as we have huge tyrannical institutions having so much wealth and power, we need states and governments for self defense
“I know it's really, super hard to understand. It might take you a while to grasp such a difficult concept.”
Oh, no I understand it perfectly well. It was exactly this way of thinking that I was criticizing in the post.
I didn't say we didn't need states and government. I'm saying that we must reign in government. It eats taxes, takes money from the poor, complicates and messes up everything it touches. As the larger it gets, the LESS those who are governed can do oversight on it. The government now doesn't defend us as it should-it's doing too many other things that it has no right to be doing.
And I didn't say that you said that we don’t need states and government.
You’re doing exactly what I was criticizing in the post. You’re blaming the government for this and that, but don’t address private power. What about concentrated private power, BetsyR? What about the huge corporations and the financial elite who control our workplaces and our economy – without even being democratically elected? What about the fact that these people are making tons of profits by exploiting workers?
It’ s concentrated private power that needs to be focused on the most. Capitalism, regulated or non-regulated, is immoral and tyrannical, it must be abolished.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/57856066@N02/7664691746/in/photostream
The purpose of your spam is what? Try putting it in it's own post and give it some verbiage to convey your problem or joy with it.
He's been posting 3-4 different links under my posts with different pictures. Apparently he doesn't have any arguments himself, so he posts links to pictures instead.
Sounds pretty lame if he is trying to make some sort of point. Is no doubt likely to have further stuff like that removed.
I'm guessing he's just a right-wing troll who has decided that he hates the ideas I present, but is incapable of explaining why. It's just sad.
Is the message in this poster you're linking to supposed to present some kind of argument against the things mentioned in the article? If so, could you elaborate a little: if not, why did you post it here?
Big government ( regardless of who controls it) is prone to tyranny . Until you red weenies understand that you will always fail.
"Big government ( regardless of who controls it) is prone to tyranny"
Sure, but that doesn't mean that private enterprise should run things. That's private tyranny. We must build democracy from below, with workers' takeover of industry and strong local democracy.
"Until you red weenies understand that you will always fail."
I do understand it. I'm an anarchist; I think all sorts of concentrated power should be dismantled, but as long as corporations exist we need government for self defense.
The problem you fail to see is those people don't have to bug products from those companies if they don't want , in short they don't have to participate with those examples you gave. Gov makes laws you can't get around you have to follow them that's what they are mad at, the fact you don't get that is sad. Not everyone is like they don't need someone holding their hand in life they take the chances and want the rewards from doing so. Because they def. deal with the failures from it
"The problem you fail to see is those people don't have to bug products from those companies if they don't want"
The wealth and power is still highly concentrated in these private tyrannies - both national, as well as global.
"Gov makes laws you can't get around you have to follow them that's what they are mad at, the fact you don't get that is sad"
Oh, I get that they're mad at government laws, but what I was trying to say in the post is that they wrongly focus on government rather than the wealthy - who are the ones really in charge. If they want laws to be decided more locally etc, then that's fine, but they fail when they at the same time don't want to do anything about corporate power and influence. In fact these so-called libertarians who make up a relatively big part of TP, want to hand even more power over to the corporations.
Look at eye glasses... the average price is $300. and goes up from there. And it's because they have monopolized to maximize, and they price fix. The average pair of glasses in this country should be in the 25 - 30 dollar range.
And what is your solution to this?
Invite more competition. And this is where a strong benevolent Presidential dictator comes in.
Just a little curious, where exactly do you stand politically?
more losers