Welcome login | signup
Language en es fr
OccupyForum

Forum Post: Conspiracy theories push right-wing political agendas. So why are you supporting them?

Posted 1 year ago on May 12, 2013, 4 p.m. EST by DarkLordOfTruth (-43)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

It boggles the mind to think how many people here claiming to support OWS and left-wing ideologies support conspiracy theory type thinking which is primarily linked to right-wing political agendas. I don't understand it.

The goal of conspiracy theorists who are actually pushing for right-wing agendas is that the population lose complete trust of the government. The reason is that social and communist programs need a government. If you don't trust the government at all, then you don't want it to control a health care plan that's free for all (paid by taxes). You want to take care of your health care by yourself so you vote for complete privatization.

Of course, we must remain skeptical of the government and question what seems questionable. Blind trust is as dangerous as blind distrust. The key is to do proper research and demand for evidence. Not to believe any and every fantasy just because it's anti-government.

And, of course, when you've been brain-washed by conspiracy theories to forgo the need for evidence, then other right-wing ideologies like teaching Creationism alongside Evolution in science class get passed with much more ease.

When you don't care about evidence, then you have nothing to object when your local priest teaches your kids that being gay is bad for your health, or other such fantasies.

Conspiracy theories are a huge time waster and also serve to distract people from the real problems of this world. Conspiracy activism is on the rise. This is sad. Movements like 911 Truth are an amazing waste of time and resources. If all these people marched for solutions to real problems then we would get somewhere. Of course, right-wing governments are happy to see us tied up with delusions instead of actually pushing them to solve real problems.

211 Comments

211 Comments


Read the Rules
[-] 6 points by shadz66 (18252) 1 year ago

''Tr@shy'', You Sauron's Sack Sucker !!! blah Blah fkn BLAH ... bleat ; ''Bridge To The Ground'', bleat ; ''Anarchy'', bleat ; 'Plastic Violence', bleat ; 'CONspiracy Theory', bleat !!! 'DarkLordOfShite, more like !!!

As you well know when you employ your misinformation cudgels, while most of us were not watching, the term ''conspiracy theory'' has undergone an Orwellian redefinition. A “conspiracy theory” no longer means an event explained by a conspiracy. Instead it now means any explanation or even a fact, that's out of step with the government’s explanation and that of its media pimps and Corporate PR whores.

In other words, as truth becomes uncomfortable for government and the functionaries of its 'Ministry of Propaganda', the truth is redefined as 'conspiracy theory', by which is meant an absurd and laughable explanation that we should ignore. For example, when piles of carefully researched books & released government documents and testimony of eye witnesses made it clear that Oswald was not President John F. Kennedy’s assassin (or a ''Lone Wolf'', lol), the voluminous research, government documents and verified testimony was simply dismissed as a “conspiracy theory” !

Therefore and also in other words, the truth of the event was unacceptable to the authorities and to the Ministry of Propaganda that represents the interests of authorities. In America today - and increasingly throughout the Western world, actual facts & true explanations have now been relegated to the realm of mere kookiness & only people who believe lies are socially approved and accepted as patriotic citizens or reasonable people. Well - ''fuck that for a game of soldiers'', as they say around my yard !!

Any country whose population has been trained to just accept the government’s word and to shun those who question it is a country without liberty in its future or truth in its present due to the lies in its past !!!

Finally, though you still work to assiduously undermine this forum for your corporate masters Trashy and would like OWS and this forum to fade away - as attested by your own words on numerous past occasions ... We Are Still Here !!! Did you see May Day & where were you ?!! You are an incorrigible ''Lone Wolf'' and a fkn joke, matey ! Here's some ''Conspiracy Theories'' for you :

That final link above - despite the strength of the 'Drone' link above it, is particularly fascinating to me ;-)

Alors maintenant, et toi Trashy ? Qu'est ce que tu pense ?! Et enfin :

From which, I quote : ''Those few Americans who are free of the constraints imposed by dogmas on their ability to think and to process information have a huge responsibility for their small number. The assault on the rule of law began in the last years of the Clinton regime, but the real destruction of the US Constitution, the basis for the United States, was achieved by the neoconservative George W. Bush and Obama regimes. Wars without declarations by Congress, torture in violation of both US and international law, war crimes in violation of the Nuremberg standard, indefinite detention and assassination of US citizens without due process of law, universal spying on US citizens without warrants, federalization of state and local police now armed with military weapons and uniforms, detention centers, “your papers, please” (without the Gestapo “please”) not only at airports but also on highways, streets, bus terminals, train stations, and at sporting events.''

[Paul Craig Roberts was Assistant Secretary of the Treasury for Economic Policy in the Ronald Reagan administration & an associate editor of the Wall Street Journal. He was a columnist for Business Week, Scripps Howard News Service and Creators Syndicate. He has had many university appointments. His internet columns have attracted a worldwide following. His latest book, ''The Failure of Laissez Faire Capitalism and Economic Dissolution of the West'' is now available. http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/ ]

fiat lux ...

[-] 4 points by GypsyKing (9780) 1 year ago

You have the last word on this subject, I'm serious, simply the last word!

What shadz66 says here is absolutely true and final!

Tr@shy is very skilled at mixing valid arguments with a hidden agenda.

"Conspiracy theory" could now be defined as any and all ideas that threaten to expose the very real collusion of corporate interest with government to exploit the people at large. It has become a term that could be equated with the Dark Age concept of heresy, a concept that was used to suppress and control thought, to disempower the majority of people while a few clerecs enjoyed all the fruits of their labor.

Now an equivalent concept called "conspiracy threory" is being put to work on modern citizens of the United States, and all the common people of the world. It is nothing less than an effort to suppress critical thought itself.

The only effective counter to this kind of manipulation is to become a critical thinker, to become educated in our own right, so that we are not swayed by the very sophisticated sophestry of the class of intellectuals for hire - those who have fine minds but few scruples.

These are the most dangerous class in our society today, and a disporportionate number of them come out of "Ivy League" universities that in spite of their illustrious history have now become greatly suspect.

We should bare that in mind the next time we feel the impulse to revere the opinions of those who graduated from these glorified institutions. They have now, sadly, become the very proving grounds for the propogandists of the 1%.

[-] 4 points by itsmyblood (10) 1 year ago

very good point.

[-] 3 points by shadz66 (18252) 1 year ago

Thanx and I have to say that I appreciated your very interesting comment and well judged comparison of 'conspiracy theory' with "heresy". Finally, on the important matter of 'Ivy League' complicity, connivance and 'conspiracy' with the 0.01% Parasite Class, I would like to append 'fyi' in compliment and solidarity :

ipsa scientia potestas est ...

[-] -1 points by AlwaysWillBeAlwaysRight (-72) 1 year ago

You misunderstand my position and what a conspiracy theory is by definition.

I'm not here to protect the government, it's the opposite. Conspiracy theories don't attack the government and uncover hidden agendas it might have. What they do is distract from that very process.

Serious investigative journalism based on evidence and thorough research is what the government is scared of, and what we can use to uncover corruption and nefarious government plots.

We already know the US government does all kinds of very bad things. For example, the war on Iraq was illegal. They went against a UN decision. This was reported by journalists, not conspiracy theorists. We also know they faked WMD in order to have a good excuse to invade. Again, this is the work of journalists. Serious journalists have also uncovered many real conspiracies by the government throughout the years.

Here is a list of conspiracies that are considered real by investigative journalism and historical analysis. The list is of conspiracies throughout the world. Conspiracies do exist! But they need to be studied and documented with thorough evidence, something conspiracy theorists do not do by definition.

http://conspiraciesthatweretrue.blogspot.com/2007/01/list-of-proven-conspiracies-from.html

Conspiracy theories on the other hand do not uncover anything because they are based on a flawed method of research. A great example are chemtrails. There's just no evidence for them, and, actually, all the evidence points against them. Still, conspiracy theorists keep this myth alive by rehashing lies. They know these are lies because they have been thoroughly debunked, yet they keep rehashing them. It's absolutely irresponsible and often times dangerous.

Another one is anti-vaxers. A british scientist, Andrew Wakefield, published an article linking vaccines to autism. That's when the anti-vaxers theory started. It was later found out, by serious journalists, that he had faked some of the research. New research was made by other scientists and, to this day, no link has been found whatsoever. In Europe, some anti-vaxers stopped vaccinating their children and this caused an outbreak of measles. Many children died. It's a tragedy.

http://www.blogistan.co.uk/blog/mt.php/2013/04/21/anti-vaxers-and-me

Conspiracy theories include chemtrails, anti-vaxers, 911 Truth, aliens at Roswell (area 51), poisonous fluoride in water ways, Hitler having survived and hiding in Argentina, etc...

A conspiracy theory posits a conclusion first. Then it amasses facts, creates fake facts, uses logical fallacies, etc... to back up the preconceived conclusion. This is pseudoscience at its best. They are usually started by right-wing groups like Alex Jones' network, and are aimed at distracting us from real issues.

The Boston Marathon conspiracy theories are a great example. Only minutes after the bombings did Alex Jones already have a cooked up conclusion that it was done by the FBI. He then tried very hard to find evidence for his claims, and ignored any evidence to the contrary.

We live in a time when we have access to lots of evidence. We have Wikileaks for example which is great. If we want to attack the bad things the government is doing, we should use proper journalism techniques which require us to find evidence and build a strong case. The problem is this takes time and Americans like things to be fast. That's why they like fast food and conspiracy theories. They lack the patience for proper research.

Luckily, some people are doing that. We know many of the bad tricks of WallStreet individuals because of serious journalists.

Conspiracy theories bring us nothing but wasted time, danger, and delusions.

I highly suggest you read the entry on Conspiracy Theories in Wikipedia in its entirety. It explains the situation very well and includes many references you can further look into if this subject interests you.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspiracy_theory


The only effective counter to this kind of manipulation is to become a critical thinker, to become educated in our own right, so that we are not swayed by the very sophisticated sophestry of the class of intellectuals for hire - those who have fine minds but few scruples.

This statement is very ironic because critical thinkers are those who debunk and destroy conspiracy theories before they sink us all into a world of delusion.

For example, here's a great site made by a critical thinker. He thoroughly debunks the conspiracy theory of chemtrails. The site is full of references you can double check for yourself if you don't believe him. His work is tight. Based on evidence and thorough research. These are the types of people we need to help us better understand the strange world we live in.

http://contrailscience.com/


As a challenge to you, could you provide us with an example of one conspiracy theory that is true? I have a feeling this will help us understand what you think a conspiracy theory is, and I have a feeling you will post something that is not a conspiracy theory, but instead a piece of well researched journalism.

[-] 2 points by shadz66 (18252) 1 year ago

''Everything Is Rigged : European Commission Raids Oil Companies in Price-Fixing Probe'', by - the ever excellent, Matt Taibbi :

However Tr@shy, you'll have fuk all to say of course on the substantive issues as per usual, because wedge-issues, 'smoke & mirrors' and distraction are your stock in trade - you pedantic, pissant poseur !!

temet nosce ...

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (35002) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/blogs/taibblog/everything-is-rigged-continued-european-commission-raids-oil-companies-in-price-fixing-probe-20130515 or ...

After all these decades - huh - what got them so suddenly motivated - think some governments might be waking up to the fact that they much like the fly is caught in the spiders web?

Or is this an attempt to throw the disgruntled public a sop?

Well - how many expect anything to come of this?

Not too many I hope - after the non-action taken for the economic financial meltdown.

Still just reporting some thing like that to the public - if nothing comes of it - they may well have thrown gasoline ( ironic? ) onto the fire.

Clean Green Tech anyone?

[-] 2 points by shadz66 (18252) 1 year ago

Yep & "The Cleantech Revolution" : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9noGsz_HVcI .

spero meliora ...

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (35002) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

OMG - Gag me with a spoon - a Bitchelle Bachman commercial prior to the start. How inappropriate is that?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9noGsz_HVcI

What if indeed:

" What if we could live in a clean world?A world in which energy would be 100% renewable, water no longer polluted, transportation truly green and production methods clean and regenerative? "

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (35002) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

Tweet -

Society

Prosperity

Health

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9noGsz_HVcI

Change

The

Paradigm.

[+] -4 points by AlwaysWillBeAlwaysRight (-72) 1 year ago

There's definitely rigging of prices in the world of oil. I read many articles by serious journalists who have shown this with solid evidence. There's also the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission (FERC) report that showed that JPMorgan Chase and others used dubious means to manipulate prices. This is well known, well documented, and well supported by evidence.

It's not a conspiracy theory.

Conspiracy theories are not backed up by evidence. They are based on logical fallacies. Some well known CP are: chemtrails, anti-vaxers, 911 Truth, Obama being the antichrist, Roswell aliens, Bin Laden having died before or after May 2nd 2011, poisonous fluoride in water, Boston Bombings by FBI, NWO, Icke's Lizard people, etc....

The above are called conspiracy theories because they are not backed by evidence, and because the research method is flawed. Conclusion first, then try to fit the facts to make the conclusion work.


We need to care about science, to care about evidence, to care about proper research methods. Enough of this conspiracy theory mumbo jumbo that's taking over US and is being used by the right-wing as a distraction for real problems.

Governments do bad things all the time, but we need to use serious investigative journalism to find out those things. 14 year olds in their mother's basement are good at photoshopping 911 plane photos to spread lies, but they aren't good for proper research.


The way to change the wrongs of the world is with evidence, not empty assumptions. That's why I choose investigative journalism and historical analysis over conspiracy theory mumbo jumbo. That's also why scholars like Noam Chomsky do the same. Of course, conspiracy theorists retort that all scholars are in on the currently fashionable conspiracy conspiracy theorists are "researching" so that's why they are against them.

[-] 6 points by shadz66 (18252) 1 year ago

None here go on about 'Conspiracy Theories' as much as you and YOUR obsession with this forum from the beginning (as evidenced by over a hundred log in monikers) and your incessant attempts at division, sly insinuation, constant attempts to push wedge issues and use of 'trigger words' - is now clear to all.

Re. 9/!! your preference for the 'Official Conspiracy Theory' [ie the one that totally ignores WTC Bldng 7!] is duly noted here but for the standing record, here's a 'conspiracy' that is more than a 'theory' and much more in keeping with the real raison d'etre of OWS & a way towards working for solutions for The 99% :

Off you go now and do some useful research and as per your (pseudo)intelectual pretensions, whoTF who really had one, would claim to have a PhD and then capitalise ALL the letters ? Get a grip, lolol !

gnothi seauton ...

[-] 2 points by shooz (17722) 1 year ago

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cLmWtD8_i-U

Add that one to your list in honor of Skilling's release.

[-] 2 points by shadz66 (18252) 1 year ago

''Enron - The Smartest Guys (& BIGGEST CROOKS !!) In The Room'' - yep, I've watched that but not for a long time.I am watching ''Inside Job'' again thanx to that excellent link above (courtesy of 'Builder') but may segue seamlessly into your highly recommended linked doc. thereafter. If I'm frothing at the mouth by the end of the day, we know who to blame ... ME !!! .. and breeeeath, lol & ...

fiat lux ...

[-] 2 points by shooz (17722) 1 year ago

I didn't mean to add to your breathing difficulties................:)

If you don't mind a bit of US politics, here's the interview with the authors of Bush's Brain.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UOgeLIL8j9Y

If you can find the movie, it's a good one.

Karl Rove is still at large.

[-] 2 points by shadz66 (18252) 1 year ago

Now I need an exotic cigarette ======##~~~' !!! Nope .. I'm drawing a line there !! Bush never had a fkn brain ! I knew a journalist whose job it was to go dig up dirt on GWB in Texas & he found more shit than he could handle but resigned when his paper refused to publish any of it. As for Karl Rove - dude, that is my LEAST favourite sequence of those 7 letters EVER and so I'll link to this :

Further, in the opinion of some folk, that video is evidence that The RepubliCons were on the verge of another election theft but it was going to have to be so fkn blatant that they had to pull out at the last moment but no one told Rove in the studio that night, lololol !!!

verum ex absurdo ...

[-] 2 points by shooz (17722) 1 year ago

Karl lost out to the Worlds favorite team of brotherly love.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Ybl9roaHe0

If you can't win it...distort it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oSAzYWmsiwI

[-] 2 points by shadz66 (18252) 1 year ago

Greg Palast is a real iconoclastic pain in the TPTB's ass and as per your second link ''The Billionaires' Tea Party'', I have seen that but anyone who has not, really ought to in order to get an important insight into just how The USA has now been subverted by Right Wing, Randian, Corporate Interests into a total demoCRAZY deMOCKERYcy !! Also see : http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article26706.htm ;-)

spero meliora ...

[-] -3 points by AlwaysWiIlBeAlwaysRight (-82) 1 year ago

Very true, unfortunately conspiracy theories like 911 Truth and chemtrails will be the focus as usual.

[-] 3 points by shooz (17722) 1 year ago

Zero information, generic bullshit.

and you didn't pay attention either.

I would expect better, even from a troll such as yourself.

Here's a new one for you.

http://inthesetimes.com/working/entry/15009/nlrb_noel_canning_trumka_hedger_victims/

[-] -3 points by AlwaysWiIlBeAlwaysRight (-82) 1 year ago

Perhaps others here don't realize the huge dangers that conspiracy theories pose. They are the #1 threat to America today. More dangerous than scientology, or the evilest cult you can imagine. They brainwash and destroy minds. They lead to delusions and schizophrenia.

[-] 3 points by DKAtoday (35002) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

Perhaps others here don't realize the huge dangers that conspiracy theories pose. They are the #1 threat to America today.

And yet - There U R spouting a conspiracy theory of Ur own.

They brainwash and destroy minds. They lead to delusions and schizophrenia.

This though was a nice definition of what you try to do.

[-] 3 points by DKAtoday (35002) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

He's(?) a Nowhere Man - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7mj7Rlh2lJo - kind of anyway - as it has all sorts of misinformation point of views. But also with all kinds of Nowhere plans. Just sees what it wants to see.

[-] 4 points by shadz66 (18252) 1 year ago

He's on a : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OFgayzZ5KTM but too self-absorbed to know it !!! Don't reply !! No point bumping this b-s any more than strictly necessary - kinda like me now ...NOT, lolol !

pax ...

[-] -1 points by DarkLordOfTruth (-43) 1 year ago

I think this website is useless and hurts Occupy by giving it a bad image, but I certain don't want OWS to die! We need Occupy. It's the most important protest of modern times. America is so right wing it's not funny. You guys hate socialism, not me. I grew up in Norway, and loved the system.

In America today - and increasingly throughout the Western world, actual facts & true explanations have now been relegated to the realm of mere kookiness & only people who believe lies are socially approved and accepted as patriotic citizens or reasonable people.

That's true, but it's hardly the government's fault. Conspiracy theorists have spit and laughed in the face of evidence. Americans like fantasies, delusions. Tell them the FBI organized the Boston Bombings and they'll eat it up without requiring even the slightest evidence. An American believes anything that goes against the government 100%, and disbelieves anything from the government 100%. It's black and white thinking. Simple minded. Conspiracy theories have made it so Americans can no longer differentiate from fact and fiction.

[-] 5 points by shadz66 (18252) 1 year ago

NO !!! Corporate MSM ; PR Propaganda ; 'Mind Management' ; 'Perception Control' and such ... ''have made it so Americans can no longer differentiate from fact and fiction'' !! You need to read PCR's article above and explore the embedded links therein.

Also 'Mr. BridgeToTheGround'-'BeAnActivistForADay' why aren't you @ :

OR helping to organise the 'LiveStream' right now ?! Here you go :

Go join the stream & try to add something useful rather than just bleating & complaining on & on about this forum all th fkn time !!! Maybe its you who's ''useless and hurts Occupy by giving it a bad image'' !!

temet nosce ...

[-] -2 points by LoneRanger (-307) 1 year ago

Corporate MSM, PR Propaganda, etc... utilize conspiracy theories to bring the population to the point of delusions. Alex Jones is one of the biggest propaganda firms in US.

[-] 3 points by shadz66 (18252) 1 year ago

But somehow you have fuk all to say about the 'ABCNNBCBS (Lame)Fux Snewzzzz' ; NYT ; WSJ ; NYPost et al - plying their B-S !!! Q : Who gives a flyin' fuk about Alex Jones ?!! A : You do - as you bring up CONspiracy Theories more than anyone else here, because it's you who is most obsessed with this as everyone else here just reads or doesn't & moves on .. or doesn't !

Here you go, now go read these & flip out again, why don't you ?!

ad iudicum ...

[+] -5 points by LoneRanger (-307) 1 year ago

Millions of people give a fuck about Alex Jones. That's the problem. He has many followers.His impact on American thought patterns cannot be ignored.

Sorry my friend. I don't read garbage. Your conspiracy theory links don't interest me. I read serious journalism based on evidence. If I want to read fiction, I'll find the work of a great novelist.

[-] 5 points by shadz66 (18252) 1 year ago

''Tr@shy'' : Consider closely : ''Thrasymaque -

''We are all born sophists, and our only cure is Socrates. But, Socrates never faced Socrates, his sophistry was therefore never expunged. Sophists, like my former self and your current self, only appear as sophists because Socrates shines his light on us, but, as this light is being shun so is our sophistry diminished, until, finally, the day we are fully cleansed. I am no longer the Thrasymaque you once knew. I have died, been washed, and am now reborn. I am the Socrates who has faced Socrates. My mission is the betterment of manmind.'' from :

You are The Definitive ''CONspiracy Theory'' on this forum, you pretentious, self-absorbed sophist !!! I stopped counting your sock-puppets at 50, though you're probably nearer to three figures now !! Your attempt to use your wedge-issues to try to undermine this OWS forum - as attested to in my more substantive comment above, is your now clear modus operandi here.

Have you heard of LIBOR ?!!! How and why did USUK et al go to war on Iraq 10 years ago ?!! How did the GFC of '08 occur ?! Could the word 'conspiracy' be applied to these events given that a very small number of individuals led the world to these situations ? There are of course a myriad other examples, including the soon to be revealed scandal of oil price fixing, just the tip of which is coming out in the UK between BP & Shell. Yet all you have got is your self-important, pedantic bleating. You are a fkn joke, pal - just like your 'straw-man' arguments and wedge issues. Now apply your so-called mind to these :

As far as I'm concerned these could clearly be considered 'conspiracies' too & it's a very viable 'theory' based on the evidence presented in the articles and video here & in the links above - just on this thread.

But you of course think that you are some kind of pompous arbiter of what is or is not permissible here. So clear up your own conspiracy then ... who do you serve ? What is your connection to :

Come on now Jean/John/Josh ... spill it from Bali/Montreal/Detroit/Rennes/NY or wherever you may be planning your bot attacks from and give Rehanna a break, will ya ? Also, what was on that li'l bit of code that you offered OWS back in day that so upset you when jart and co rejected it ? Was it a SpyBot ? ;-)

e tenebris ...

[-] 3 points by DKAtoday (35002) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

You are the definitive ''CONspiracy Theory'' on this forum, you pretentious, self-absorbed sophist !!!

Tell it like it "IS".

[+] -6 points by LoneRanger (-307) 1 year ago

This is a long ad hominem followed by a red herring. A basic appeal to motive and authority. Things conspiracy theorists are very fond of. It's sad that America breads this type of flawed debating style.

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (35002) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

Mr. Twister

Funny you seem right at home in serving out pure shit. Calling it fact and calling everything else shit.

Come On Baby - lets do the twist.

[+] -4 points by LoneRanger (-307) 1 year ago

You support conspiracy theories? Right wingers like Alex Jones? Or crackpots like David Icke? Shadz66 is a conspiracy theorist. He supports the notions of right-winger Alex Jones when it comes to 911. He does so even after 12 years of intense debunking. If you support right-winger delusions, why are you pretending to support OWS?

[-] 3 points by DKAtoday (35002) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

I repeat - You are a propagator of shit.

[+] -4 points by LoneRanger (-307) 1 year ago

ad hominem

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (35002) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

I repeat - You are a propagator of shit.

And a conspiracy theorist as well.

HeeeHehehehe

[Removed]

[-] -3 points by LoneRanger (-307) 1 year ago

You're the one saying WallStreet brokers and bankers are good guys who inadvertently followed flawed economic analysis. I, on the other hand, believe in the huge amounts of evidence amassed by serious journalists who showed that brokers and bankers on WallStreet fuck us all with economic knowledge acquired through serious research. They have it down to a science.

I'm wondering why you support OWS attacking brokers and bankers on WallStreet if you think those are good guys who just got it wrong because the economic analysis was flawed? If it's not their fault, why attack them?

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (35002) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

You're the one saying WallStreet brokers and bankers are good guys who inadvertently followed flawed economic analysis

No that would B some sort of delusion of Ur's.

I, on the other hand, believe in the huge amounts of evidence amassed

But U never provide it - so U present theory - as U present No evidence.

I'm wondering why you support OWS attacking brokers and bankers on WallStreet if you think those are good guys who just got it wrong because the economic analysis was flawed

U R what's flawed.

[-] -1 points by itsmyblood (10) 1 year ago

icke is right to a great degree.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (35002) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

On perspective perception attitude and decision making:

The Earth-Shatteringly Amazing Speech That'll Change The Way You Think About Adulthood

Have A Nice Day.

Flush Alex Jones.

[-] 3 points by Middleaged (5140) 1 year ago

Coiba Island in Panama is Chemical Weapons testing ground which the US Military USED to Test the Effects of Chemical Weapons in the Tropics in World War II.

My information is from a Travel Writer who lived there and worked there. But Remember after World War I, Chemical Weapons were internationally agreed to be Prohibited. That is why little evidence of Chemical Weapons exists for World War II.

Conspiracy? Governments and the US Government always say things and make promises and treaties. But there is a constant problem of Integrity. They always screw with people and the Environment. They often go to war for Corporate Interests/Wealth Interests. They often end up killing off and suppressing aboriginals.

So they also create False Reasons to go to war and start wars... just like Iraq.

And now we have to ask... Why is the USA Involved in Human Rights Violations after World War I Treaties, the Trials of war Criminals after World War II, the Geneva Conventions, the Clear history of Assassination programs in Vietnam, the Dangerous use of Agent Orange in Vietnam that is recognized today, ... the Use of Battle Field Nukes in Iraq and the birth defects and disease there now....

After all that why do we have secret prisons, torture, kidnaping people from other countries, .... why are we saying "deny Due Process" for the Suspect of the Boston Massacre? Why don't we Try the prisoners who were suspected of being Terrorist in a US Court?

Why have an Army or Military Spend $1 Trillion dollars on a war on terror when the enemy has no army, no navy, no satelites, no ports, no bases, no planes, no country, no logistics hubs.... you can't attack with a military someone that doesn't have a country, borders, or a military.

That is about as dumb as the War on drugs. Kill a drug lord, lock up mules, arrest cartel leaders.... and unknown agents move in to replace them the next day. Supply & Demand.

Wow, Supply & Demand. I guess they teach that in college somewhere. But not where Politicians or Elitist go to School... Or Dude, do you think the Big Pharmacy Corporations and Big Banks are getting a Profit from Laundering Money and controlling the substances that US Consumers get, what prices they pay, and Profits from a US Security State, US Security Contractors, US Defense Contractors??.

[-] 3 points by itsmyblood (10) 1 year ago

you have got to be fucking kidding me... while certainly alex jones and other libertarian conspiracy theories have their own ideology they are trying to sell. radical progressives have consistently endorsed conspiracy theories wait for it, wait for it, wait for it.... CAUSE THEY ARE FUCKING TRUE. mk-ultra true, cointelpro true, gulf of tonkin true, jfk, rfk, mlk, ufos, rex 84, all fucking true, hell the fbi allowed the 93 wtc attacks to take place as per the nytimes. wake the fuck up pull your head out of your ass... just cause real conspiracy theorists go on and on about things like haarp and chem trails does not mean they are not 100 percent right about the above stated or for that matter that these things are not at least some what how they say.

[-] 3 points by Middleaged (5140) 1 year ago

Capitalism or Conspiracy. Sounds like a board game, right?

US Justice System in effect has created many Industries since there are few Standardized, Detailed, US Business Models, Restrictive Intellectual & Copy Right, Property Rights, Few Protections in Transparency for Investors, Few absolutes in GAAP Accounting Rules, No limit on Shell Companies, No enforcement of or Requirements for Corporate Tax and Executive Compensation Off Shore, No Requirement for Payroll deductions Off Shore, No Restrictions on Overhead written off of Revenues, No Streamlining of Income Taxes, No Alternative Minimun Tax on Wealthy Income Brackets, No Restrictions on Lobbying, Campaign Contributions, and Gifts to Congressmen. By the 1980s there was a crack down on write off of Lunches, Dinners, Entertainment, and Strip Bar Bills on Corporate Tax Bills.... but this doesn't seem to apply to Wall Street and Congressional Gifts.

  • Tax Accountant Industry
  • Tax Lawyer Industry
  • Lobbyist Industry in Washington DC, K Street & All
  • Foreign Lobbying, Foreign Government Lobbying
  • PAC, Think Tank, Foundations Industry
  • Secret regulator Industry through revolving Door, offer of jobs, favors, trust Accounts, Deferred Compensation through special corporate Trust, Investments, Mortgages at special Rates, offers for Government Posts in the Future, Crony Capitalism
  • Secret Financial Industry, Private Banking, Hidden & Expensive Compensation that is complicated enough to hire additional financial managers, Choosing Winning Trades in Stock Markets to Reward Congress or other Insiders as compensation or in return for Political Favors in the future
  • Teams of Lawyers to Fight for Corporations in Court, Strategize for Industry, Influence Universities & Associations, and to Influence Seated Judges, Court Circuits, and the Supreme Court
  • Teams of Financial Managers to approach all Union and Public Pensions and Retirement Funds, as well as Health Insurance, Dental Insurance, Life Insurance, Long Term Care Insurance, Auto & Home Insurance
  • Lawyers to Deregulate and Strengthen Bankruptcy Laws against consumers, credit law, Cut Worker Rights, Cut Union Rights, Keep Interest Rates High against consumers
  • Lawyers to Privatize Commons, Destroy Social Security, Destroy Medicare, Destroy Progressive Legislation
  • Lobbyists to take us to War, and Fund Defense, Security, and Prisons, last big win was DHS creation, which created a whole industry all at one time
  • Corporate Lobby Industry to coordinate with Europe, Asia, and Latin America on Treaties to instill corporate Values and Proprietary Rights, as well as Neoclassical, Neoliberal Economic Policies to keep central banks and lower class that will work at low wages

Well lots of Industry has been created in the US where we have so much money. And we enable the spending of money by allowing unlimited executive compensation without effect or notice by Corporate Ratings Agencies. We enable the "Gaming" of Income Tax, Corporate Tax, Lobbying, and Capture of our Institutions by allowing unlimited write off of Wages & Compensation of Lawyers, Lobbyists, Financial Managers, and Accountants.

  • Let's Impose a Tax on the number of nonproductive employees that "Game" the System and or the Contract Money spent to "Game" the system. Lawyers, Lobbyists, Financial Managers, and Accountants.

  • Or let's put restrictions & Ceilings on the total number of employees as a percentage of productive activity within an organization Lawyers, Lobbyists, Financial Managers, and Accountants.

  • Or let's put restrictions on the total resources and or employees put on in corporate civil lawsuits, fighting the SEC or Regulators, or Criminal Prosecution against the company, either defensive or offensive ... as these tie up the court system, strain public resource, cost public money ... and they can be a huge advantage in Courts, Federal or State Courts ... one way might be a Tax, maybe a Ceiling on Total Employees or Dollars Spent, or Prohibit the Write off of Taxes through Claim of Normal Expenses to come out of Revenues.

Well, Let's hear some Solutions. I'm sure someone is reading these posts for solutions

Hey, Loneranger, these may just be Corruption and Racketeering. I know your post is about Conspiracy. Any thoughts here? The thing is None of the Industry Jobs listed above adds to the US Economy, US GDP, or adds anything "Patriotic" to the USA. We would not miss anything by limiting the number of Lawyers or others "Gaming" the System.

[-] 3 points by Middleaged (5140) 1 year ago

Actually your hypotheses is that Canada, USA, & UK have to win Financially, Corporate Bank-wise, Ideologically, Spin-wise, and Militarily.

  • You probably don't believe in the Public relations messages put out by the Current Administrations, Press Secretaries, Lobbyists, Think Tanks, Foundations, and Central Banks.
  • But you are a Kind of Believer
  • You are not a kind of True Believer in Constitution, Liberty, Freedom, Free Speech, Free Press, Self Determination, Self Actualization
  • You Believe in Noble Lies, and in Manipulation for the Good of Empire

How Else Can You Live with yourself after your Country, or Wall Street Banking, "Ruined" it's Reputation in Investment Banking through AAA Rated Junk Financial Instruments sold through out the world.

How Else Can You Live with yourself after your Country Fabricated Dangerous, Criminal Lies on WMDs in Iraq and took NATO to War in Iraq.

How Else Can You Live with yourself after your Country Proved "It Can Not Be Trusted Internationally to Make Cases for Either NATO, UN, or US Military Actions". And this not so long after Vietnam War and Iran Contra Deals Proved to be "Bald Faced Lies" to our People.

How Else Can You Live with yourself after your Country, or Wall Street Banking, created an Industry for Subprime Mortgage Packaging that had nothing to do with FNMA, FMAC, FHLMC, government-sponsored enterprises (GSEs), The secondary market channels funds to borrowers by facilitating the resale of mortgages and mortgage-backed securities (MBSs). Unless you say there was a conspiracy with FNMA & FHLMC CEOs to aid in selling & marketing subprime mortgages in contrast to their mandates. The fact is there is no place for NINJA Loans or Subprime Mortgages in Government Sponsored Mortgages.

Hey maybe we could list some Conspiracy Fabrications, Official Conspiracies or Noble Lies and try to sort them out as hypotheses, Fact, Fraud, or Racketeering?

  • President Clinton Threatened US Banks to force them to make Subprime Mortgages, he said the Federal Government would take legal action against them as a kind of Discrimination. This is Myth, Conspiracy Theory... see above GSE and their mortgage requirements. Wall Street created a secondary market to package subprime & NINJA Loans to sell to investors. The effect was a huge demand for these mortgages because of the incentives for bankers who made fees and bonuses. This is called a perverse incentive. See Gresham's Dynamic.

  • US Banks, CITIBANK, and US Lobbyist Deregulated the Banking Industry so that they could do anything they wanted. In fact they don't even follow GAAP Accounting rules strictly speaking as many transactions can be "off balance sheet", Shell Companies are common, and banks can create "farmers insurance" type companies to avoid taxes on Investment gains. And Executives further game the system by hiding income and retirement compensation in Trust Accounts Off Shore. All of this gaming of the system including years of special loopholes to reduce taxes, capital gains taxes under George W. Bush, and special class carried interest for hedge fund managers... proves conspiracy, racketeering, RICO Violations, corruption. Fact, a Trust Conspiracy part of neoliberal ideology.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/loans.asp
http://www.snopes.com/politics/business/easescredit.asp
Seems that Deregulation Designed by Lobbyist for Banks is the mechanism that enabled subprime Housing Crash, CDO, CDS, and much of the problem with Derivatives

Community Reinvestment Act had nothing to do with subprime crisis article, by: Aaron Pressman on September 29, 2008

Fresh off the false and politicized attack on Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, today we’re hearing the know-nothings blame the subprime crisis on the Community Reinvestment Act — a 30-year-old law that was actually weakened by the Bush administration just as the worst lending wave began. This is even more ridiculous than blaming Freddie and Fannie.

The Community Reinvestment Act, passed in 1977, requires banks to lend in the low-income neighborhoods where they take deposits. Just the idea that a lending crisis created from 2004 to 2007 was caused by a 1977 law is silly. But it’s even more ridiculous when you consider that most subprime loans were made by firms that aren’t subject to the CRA. University of Michigan law professor Michael Barr testified back in February before the House Committee on Financial Services that 50% of subprime loans were made by mortgage service companies not subject comprehensive federal supervision and another 30% were made by affiliates of banks or thrifts which are not subject to routine supervision or examinations. As former Fed Governor Ned Gramlich said in an August, 2007, speech shortly before he passed away: “In the subprime market where we badly need supervision, a majority of loans are made with very little supervision. It is like a city with a murder law, but no cops on the beat.”
http://www.businessweek.com/investing/insights/blog/archives/2008/09/community_reinv.html

[Removed]

[-] 1 points by shooz (17722) 1 year ago

Have you taken your no tweeting sentiment to YOUR GA yet?

How about the magical untruth of your latest sock puppet?

Just couldn't get your lying ass to work with just one nameplate?

[Removed]

[-] 0 points by shooz (17722) 1 year ago

You should go to your local bank and start screaming at it's CEO.

Show a little chutzpa.

I've already done that.

[Removed]

[-] 3 points by arturo (3169) from Shanghai, Shanghai 1 year ago

To think that all "conspiracy theorists" are the same is something like bigotry. There are conspiracy theorists that are right wing and some that are left wing, and everything in between.

I'm a conspiracy theorist, but identify myself as a conservative democrat, that is, fairly middle of the road. I don't believe that government is evil, in fact, I believe that some of our American administrations have been very good.

As a matter of fact, I believe in big government, as long as that big government is productive, and I believe we have good examples of productive big government projects.

One example would be FDR's New Deal. Workers that were trained and developed through the New Deal were so productive, that they were quickly snapped up by private employers after leaving their publicly funded jobs.

I don't believe that government in itself is evil, but rather that "empire" is evil. Today, there is a huge financial empire that, just like the empires of old, tries to colonize nations and their people.

Empires take control of governments through all kinds of means ranging from aggressive war, through the most covert subversion. I believe that our government is a victim of such subversion today.

Conspiracy theorists, at least of my type, recognize that subversion and try to oppose it.

[-] -1 points by LoneRanger (-307) 1 year ago

To think that all "conspiracy theorists" are the same is something like bigotry. There are conspiracy theorists that are right wing and some that are left wing, and everything in between.

BTW, I'm wondering if you read my post, or if you have English reading problems.

I didn't say they were all right wing. Read my first sentence again: "It boggles the mind to think how many people here claiming to support OWS and left-wing ideologies support conspiracy theory type thinking which is primarily linked to right-wing political agendas."

"primarily linked" is the expression you skipped or misunderstood.

[-] -3 points by LoneRanger (-307) 1 year ago

By definition, conspiracy theorists are those who come up with a conclusion involving a what they perceive as an extremely evil force and then try every trick in the logical fallacy book to make "facts" and "evidence" point to their conclusion. This is the definition of a conspiracy theorist. The discipline which uses proper research methods to uncover conspiracies or explain other types of world events is called investigative journalism.

Conspiracy theorists view the world in black and white, no grey areas. There's an evil force like the NWO responsible for all that his bad, then the victims like the "sheeple" who are always good. It's like Gargamel vs the Smurfs. It's a way to simplify the complex world.

But, such simplification never leads to the truth. The fact is the 1% is composed of many corporations and different types of people. They all have their own goals. Some are corrupt, some are not. They don't all meet up in secret places to elaborate world domination plans.

Conspiracy theorists are deluded people who live in a fantasy world and try to blur the line of reality/fantasy for the rest of us. They are not only useless, they are highly dangerous. People die because of conspiracy theorists. Real problems are not solved because of conspiracy theorists. They waste a lot of time and energy.

Conspiracy theories and the biggest threat to America today. They propose a way of thinking that throws logic and evidence to the curb. What's scary is that this flawed type of research is taking over America.

You're a prefect example of a conspiracy theorist. You're a LaRouchie. You follow all his conspiracy theories and you don't demand evidence. You see the world as the big bad British force vs the rest of us. Simple minded historical analysis.

[-] 4 points by arturo (3169) from Shanghai, Shanghai 1 year ago

You are a perfect example of a bigot, you think that all conspiracy theorists or all "Larouchies" for that matter are the same.

Ghenghis Khan raised the Mongolian empire and took over a vast empire ranging from China to Europe, using the most brutal and destructive means to do so. Were the people who recognized him as evil simple minded conspiracy theorists as well?

Or what about the Roman empire, with its vast war machine, its coliseum in which victims were pitted against each other in bloody battles for the entertainment of the emperor and the Roman people? Were the people who recognized this as evil simple minded as well?

What makes you think that today is so different? That is simple minded, that just because you live in relative peace, you think that there is no evil in the world.

I'm well aware that the one percent is made up of many different types of people as you say, but I also believe that there is a one percent, or maybe less, of that one percent that does belong to secret societies and elaborates plans for world dominion. There have been such people for thousands of years, why wouldn't there be such today?

When you say that conspiracy theorists view the world as black and white, you are viewing the world as black and white yourself, you are again showing your bigotry and lack of understanding. You are simplifying the idea of what a conspiracy theorist is because you want an easy enemy to attack and to allow you to feel superior.

You or anyone can define conspiracy theorists however you want, but that certainly doesn't mean that we have to conform to your simplistic definition.

Today most journalism doesn't uncover conspiracies, it covers them up. Counter intelligence is also a discipline that uses proper research methods to uncover conspiracies. Its the discipline that Lyndon Larouche practices and he is recognized to have one of the best private intelligence organizations in the world.

[+] -4 points by LoneRanger (-307) 1 year ago

Ghenghis Khan raised the Mongolian empire and took over a vast empire ranging from China to Europe, using the most brutal and destructive means to do so. Were the people who recognized him as evil simple minded conspiracy theorists as well?

No, they have evidence to support their claims. They weren't conspiracy theorists at all.

Or what about the Roman empire, with its vast war machine, its coliseum in which victims were pitted against each other in bloody battles for the entertainment of the emperor and the Roman people? Were the people who recognized this as evil simple minded as well?

No, they were historians armed with proper research methods. They weren't conspiracy theorists at all. They used evidence to demonstrate their claims.

What makes you think that today is so different? That is simple minded, that just because you live in relative peace, you think that there is no evil in the world.

I never said there was no evil in the world. There is plenty. Governments screw us all the time, so do rich people. I said that conspiracy theories are useless because they don't care about evidence. If you want to uncover the evils in the world, the real ones, you need to use investigative journalism and base your findings on evidence. Conspiracy theory type thinking only leads to fantasies. Remember, you need evidence.

I'm well aware that the one percent is made up of many different types of people as you say, but I also believe that there is a one percent, or maybe less, of that one percent that does belong to secret societies and elaborates plans for world dominion. There have been such people for thousands of years, why wouldn't there be such today?

Unless you have evidence you have nothing. It does not matter what you believe or what happened in the past. It doesn't make your claim true. Unless you take the responsibility to rest your claim on solid evidence, then people should not take it seriously.

You or anyone can define conspiracy theorists however you want, but that certainly doesn't mean that we have to conform to your simplistic definition.

The term is well defined in the dictionary. I'm not defining it how I want.

Today most journalism doesn't uncover conspiracies, it covers them up.

Evidence please.

Counter intelligence is also a discipline that uses proper research methods to uncover conspiracies. Its the discipline that Lyndon Larouche practices and he is recognized to have one of the best private intelligence organizations in the world.

You need to give Lyndon a big blow job once and for all. You think he's some sort of God. He's a liar, a fraud, and the head of a world wide sect. You shouldn't destroy your mind with his junk.

[-] 6 points by arturo (3169) from Shanghai, Shanghai 1 year ago

Your are a conspiracy denialist. Like a mother who is unwilling to comprehend that her husband is abusing the children, you enable insanity by denying any evidence that is in clear view. Please leave me out of your perverted sexual fantasies.

[+] -5 points by LoneRanger (-307) 1 year ago

I don't deny conspiracies. There are many that were found out with proper journalistic investigations. We have solid evidence that they do exist. They are usually not grand scale conspiracies like conspiracy theorists would have us believe, but they do exist for sure.

What I'm saying is that conspiracy theorists, by definition, do not use proper investigative methods and are deluded idiots. They just make up stuff.

you enable insanity by denying any evidence that is in clear view.

Give the example of one conspiracy theory that is backed up by evidence. There is none at all.

[-] 3 points by Middleaged (5140) 1 year ago

Dude, can you go to Afghanistan, Pakistan to see what is going on or is the cost and logistics Prohibitive?

Can you take a week travel to Washington DC, Visit the National Archive, and the Library of Congress to research how we got 26,000 pages or whatever of Federal Income Tax Code... or is it too expensive and time consuming?

Do you know if the USA was involved in Assassinations, Paid and Funded Campaigns in Latin America to decide who would lead those countries... or is it too Expensive and Time Consuming?

Can you tell us all about Operation Northwoods, Operation Chaos, US Involvement in Operation Gladio and Secret NATO Armies and operations to draw public opinion toward the right wing, Operation Mockingbird, the Phoenix Program, MKULTRA... or is some of that information still Classified or protected by the US Government... and it is too expensive and time consuming to research?

Probably 90% of what the Federal Government does is considered official and sensitive, and now it seems 80% of what the Federal Government does is not released or is classified... do you think it is possible that you can crack open the US Government and tell us what the US Military, DHS, NSA, CIA, DIA, and our contracts with US Telecommunications and Satellite companies are doing... or is that too expensive and time consuming?

You Realize that banking and corporations hide all their information except for what is required for Financial Disclosures, for income Taxes, and what is known about their government contracts... Do you want to tell us what is going on in US Business, Lobbying, Politics, security contracts, LIBOR price fixing, and ISDAfix Price Fixing... or is that too expensive and time consuming for you?

Well... what power do you have to investigate if you don't have money, time, and funds for hotels & food. Seems like you have to have an employer or be able to support yourself as a professional reporter... just to Investigate things in a population of over 300 Million Adults, 100 Million working Americans, and a huge land area that requires $millions of dollars to physically explore

Do you have access to the US Court Systems both as an investigator and as a person involved in a civil lawsuit or criminal charge... or do you think you would have to plea bargain before you go to court or suffer defeat at the hands of wealthy corporations or other entities??

http://beforeitsnews.com/banksters/2013/04/everything-is-rigged-the-biggest-price-fixing-scandal-ever-2432970.html

[-] -2 points by AlwaysWiIlBeAlwaysRight (-82) 1 year ago

What's your point? If you can't do the research and gather evidence, then you have nothing. It doesn't matter why you can't do the research.

There are tons of conspiracies which have been found to be true by the work of serious journalists. The fact that Bush lied about WMD to invade Iraq is one example.

If you can't provide any evidence for chemtrails, 911 Trutherism, anti-vaxers, Icke's lizard shape shifters, poisonous fluoride in the waterways, or any other conspiracy theory, then you have nothing. Just a fantasy on your hands.

Are you saying evidence is not important because it's hard to get? That makes no sense. Whether or not evidence is easy to gather is beside the point. Without evidence you have nothing.

The problem with conspiracy theorists is they start with a conclusion, then try to make things fit their conclusion. Serious researchers don't do that. They start by gathering evidence. If they find some hard evidence then they can make a conclusion, if they can't find the evidence for whatever reason then they don't lie and make up stuff like conspiracy theorists, they simply state that they were not able to find the evidence.

[-] 2 points by Middleaged (5140) 1 year ago

I guess you've never been in the military? never had a commander who had a command, who worked for someone else and all you know is compartmentalized information.

It is the same in the government. It is military style management. Only it usually seems the military hate the democratic style of management and democrat presidents. but if you were a low ranking member of the military, it would just look like everyone had a boss why would officers not like taking orders?

Because no one likes being kept in the dark and as you get older you know this. And people develop senses of when things are going on.

Hey did you believe that this was just a nice country with nice people and a nice government that always told the truth. you might have once believed that. But as you get older you hear other grandiose ideas of Manifest Destiny, American Destiny, or that the US has a moral obligation to send it's military might around the world to bring democracy or some other American Value like American style Capitalism.

But you have been around for a while now. you know there is more to it.

1) You know power take on a life of it's own. We went to war in WWI, and WWII and seems to me we had no idea that we would get into a Cold War with nuclear Détente. But remember politicians were afraid of communism when it took over Russia. US States put down union Strikes which helped out corporations, but also was an action to control socialism and communism which was a fear.

2) Here we are like 100 years after socialism and communism started getting a lot of notice. We have build huge military complexes with huge military budgets, and even a huge domestic spying/police agency DHS. From 1998 under Clinton the Military Budget went from $300 Trillion to not only double, but maybe Triple if you looked at all the pieces. And we don't protect our shores and don't keep our Tanks & Airplanes in top shape. We don't keep our Soldiers in Top shape. It is because we have strained our military in actions thousands of miles away. No military can attack us from Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iraq, Yemen, Saudi Arabia or where ever. but we are weaker because of the stress. Can we send Tanks to Canada or to Mexico and cover our borders... no probably not. It would take a year to get our best assets in place on the borders and we would do okay since they really is no Mexican Army or Canadian Military Force that can face us.

3) So why are we transferring all the Taxpayer money to defense and Security Corporations? We are talking Trillions of Dollars, bud over 10 years or go back 20 years or more. The chart shows Executive Wages starting to Sky Rocket about 1982.

4) Communism has faded or collapsed. So did we waste all of that effort with our spies, NATO Armies, Strategic Alliances... Well, some of it probably made sense especially in the beginning. But Empires are like Government Agencies... or vice a versa. Governments and Militaries tend to build up but not down. The Military took budget hits in the 1970s after Vietnam ended. The military is a kind of Fund. It is a cash Cow that goes up and sometimes goes down when budgets are cut. Now however the Lobby wants to keep the cash cow paying golden parachutes. the Military should be cut before anything else in the budget. Mostly it is Weapons Programs I would like to see cut. People are hard to develp as resources. Actually there were budget cuts in the 1990s and even the 1980s that reduced the soldiers, airmen, or seamen. But everyone seem to thing the level was correct before 2001. The number of Contractors exploded in 2001. It was a huge industry boom.

Conspiracy? no just Capitalism and the Corruption of money. Have you looked at all the money being spent these days by the Federal Government. Compare those numbers to 1998. Clinton had a nice budget and he balanced the budget. He gave Defense Contractors Fits. How could they deserve their executive compensation and bonuses with such normalized levels of Defense Spending. In fact it was the same in France, England, and German.

5) So why did the US Go to Fight in Korea, Vietnam, Panama, Granada, Kuwait, Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Yemen? Is it a Conspiracy. Not in the Sense that you are asking above. Is it a RICO Conspiracy Violation? Is Lobbying a RICO Conspiracy Violation?

6) Is it Treason and RICO Conspiracy Violations that Corporate Power has resulted in the Afghan & Iraqi War, the Creation of DHS, the 2008 Financial Crisis and Global Melt Down, the NDAA Legislation which is anti-constitutional, and the Patriot act I & II which are anti-constitutional.

Yes, it is Treason. Bankers are Treasonous. And it is RICO Violations.

But yes, ....

1) Scientific Method is good
2) Journalistic Method are good
3) Anthropology has good Methods
4) All Colleges teach Study and Research Methods which are good.

But 90% of what Corporations do is secrets in a sense. And 90% of what the Federal Government does is secret.

We would have no idea if the Military had a Cloud Seeding Weather Program

We would have no idea if the Military was knowingly providing Colonels and generals with Jobs in the Defense Industry

We would have no idea if Bankers were destroying Individual Freedom and making Human Rights Violations by Backing Wars or by creating contracts overseas that benefit the Wealthy or the Rulers of the Countries only and negotiating treaties which destroy sovereignty and constitutions of countries.

But does that mean you should stick your head in the sand when you hear about the US Military Teaching Torture Techniques and supporting Dirty Wars in Latin America?

What is the Difference between the USA Supporting Dirty Wars and Dictators and the wars the US has been engaged in. Maybe the only difference is that todays wars are only 12 years old. And maybe the Dirty Wars in Latin America Rubbed off on Donald Rumsfeld, Dick Cheney, and Wolfowitz.

yeah, maybe Rummy & Dicky smoked the Dirty war Pipe and got Corrupted through participation. And now Wolfowitz has Banking experience. And of course the Big Banks Launder money for the Drug Cartels. Doesn't it seem hypocritical that US Leaders want to tell us what to do in the Bed Room, if it is legal to get an abortion, what kind of drugs are illegal, who gets to control the legal drugs, who gets to launder the illegal drugs, how much jail time people do for illegal drugs, who gets to own a gun while they enjoy body guards and exclusive transportation, and then when it comes to regulations of corporations they don't believe in financial restrictions, penalties, or any rules at all.

But they get the right to create money out of thin air in banking, through lobbying for federal spending, and through tax breaks for the rich.

Is it a conspiracy that the Wage gap in Latin America is very bad and the Wage Gap in the US is starting to look exactly alike. Is it a conspiracy that Don Rumsfeld and Dick Cheney got corrupted by dirty Wars and Dictators .... and now the US Banks, Financial Managers and Corporations have all Modeled themselves after Dictators complete with Off Shore banking and Off Shore Trust Funds.

[-] -2 points by AlwaysWiIlBeAlwaysRight (-82) 1 year ago

But 90% of what Corporations do is secrets in a sense. And 90% of what the Federal Government does is secret.

Sure, but what's your point? You don't discover a secret by creating fantasies like conspiracy theorists do. If it's unknowable it's unknowable. There's no amount of delusions, fantastic stories, lies, etc... that will make you discover a secret. Conspiracy theorists simply think they have uncovered secrets, but what they really do is create delusions that they did.

Do you have evidence for chemtrails? No? You say that the government has secrets so chemtrails must be real? Sorry, doesn't count. Where's the evidence.

[-] 1 points by Middleaged (5140) 1 year ago

So, I guess we should both pick a topic and go to the Library. We will find all the info in the Library.

Well you know... we can't believe everything on the internet or in the Library.

How about Bribe money, you got any? Well if we don't have bribe money... I guess we would have to locate possible people to talk to. then, we would have to get them to listen to us or like us.

Well, you and I are normal enough. But how can we approach people or find people or visit people. We are not talking about hometown journalism.

You know to me, Wall Street looks like an exclusive world. Why would anyone talk to me. I guess I would have to get a haircut, polish my shoes, wear a suit.... I doubt I could get into a Wall Street building without an appointment.

Might be fun hanging out in the Local Bars near wall Street. Maybe New Yorkers and bartenders would talk to me. Another expense though to go with the Hotel Bill, Food, and taxis/buses.

Well, it sounds like a wasted trip, but I guess people have to try once they have a suitable investigation. Most people would say suitable is going to the Library though. But if it is in the Library, then it really isn't Investigative Journalism.

I'm not an Investigative Journalist. It just seems to me if you want to know what the US Military is doing you have to go to where the Dirty Wars are being fought or Foreign Troops are being trained.

If you want to Investigate banks, Lobbying, and Government Corruption you either go to Washington DC to cover Lobbyist or you go to Manhattan.

But these guys aren't dumb. They don't write stuff down that can be found. They don't publish their actions. They don't say what they are going to do unless it is Romney at a Millionaires donor Meeting.

The truth is hard work doesn't make an investigative journalist. You have to have instincts and luck... which we would call natural talent.

Anyone that tells you that all you need is hard work to break a big conspiracy story... is blowing smoke in your face. I may have some education and experience that can help me, but .... I don't have a sponsor.

America is vast and Expensive. You need clothes & money. The common man is 90% of the time not going to be able to prove a big story.

The Rich learned all the trick and dangers long ago. The crooks are underground. How are you going to make a difference in America?

[-] -2 points by AlwaysWiIlBeAlwaysRight (-82) 1 year ago

Sure, you need hard work, instinct, luck, money, etc... What you don't need if you want the truth is conspiracy theories cooked up by nutjobs and 14 year olds in their mothers' basements.

[-] 2 points by Middleaged (5140) 1 year ago

Hey some of those conspiracies were cooked up by adult men who were well educated.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Kelly_(weapons_expert)

Did you ever look into the English Scientist that commited suicide... It was after 9-11 can't remember the year. The UK was all over him as the guy behind something like anthrax or some conspiracy like crime.

And all of this pressure and they find his body and say well it was suicide. But he had denied it all along up until then.

What about the DC Madam Suicide? Do you think she really hung herself outside in a shed?

How about Gary Webb Suicide? I guess he shot himself in the back of the head, twice.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_Webb

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (35002) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

[-] 2 points by Middleaged (4681) 8 minutes ago

He didn't respond to Greg Palast, so maybe he works for Koch. He probably hates Bill Black too.

↥twinkle ↧stinkle permalink

I honestly don't know if it has any allegiances. I think it likes a paycheck and so does not mind working at cross purposes instead of supporting the People.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (35002) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

Nice that you hold your patience so well - considering you are trying to express good information to a determined asshole shill.

Still others can see the information now - so I suppose that even asshole shills have a use.

[-] 2 points by Middleaged (4677) 1 minute ago

You don't care that justice in the Department of Justice is not Equal.

Hey, a lot of people can't or won't take action to investigate. But aren't we Jaded if we don't care that Justice is not applied to Wealth Corporations and Executives. That the Poor people are prosecuted to the fullest with every imaginable Law and each count possible by prosecutors that just want to further their career.

We are taught to respect the law, but a guy with Marijauana goes to jail for a year or more and has his lift changed for ever over something that did not hurt anyone.

But when 84,000 Pension Programs get cancelled, Total retirement assets, Americans' second-largest household asset, dropped by 22%, from $10.3 trillion in 2006 to $8 trillion in mid-2008. During the same period, savings and investment assets (apart from retirement savings) lost $1.2 trillion and pension assets lost $1.3 trillion. Taken together, these losses total a staggering $8.3 trillion.[185] Since peaking in the second quarter of 2007, household wealth is down $14 trillion.[186]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Financial_crisis_of_2007%E2%80%9308#Wealth_effects

Okay, as I understand it the 401K Retirement fund have proven to be of little use except that Financial Managers have made money on fees and problem bet against the investments in 401Ks.

So, it is clear that there are 4 Classes of People in the USA

1) Bankers, Wealthy Corporate Executives, Rich People, Politicians, Lobbyists, Lawyers, and Crony Capitalist that have made it. it is a lot like organized crime. These are made people. They can do what they want in private, hire security, hire courtiers to take care of them and their appointments, and they have little concern for criminal law or lawsuits. They put people in office in the state and federal level. They put people in to Universities, Think tanks, Foundations, and can provide a whole career to someone that they need.

2) People that work with government, bankers, that do get some protections, but don't make a lot of money. You might be here.

3) Those with no pull in politics, government, but who have a career or steady employment. These people might be self employed or in construction.

4) People that are just nothing.

You're lack of Interest in the American Dream is Meaningful. You lack of interest in Equality is meaningful. You lack of compassion for the people that end up in our prisons and what that might mean is very regretful.

↥twinkle ↧stinkle permalink

[-] 3 points by Middleaged (5140) 1 year ago

He didn't respond to Greg Palast, so maybe he works for Koch. He probably hates Bill Black too.

[-] -2 points by AlwaysWiIlBeAlwaysRight (-82) 1 year ago

The basis for Investigation: Follow the Money

False. The basis for investigation = follow the evidence.

Everything else you wrote below is just speculation which isn't interesting at all.

[-] 3 points by Middleaged (5140) 1 year ago

You don't care that justice in the Department of Justice is not Equal.

Hey, a lot of people can't or won't take action to investigate. But aren't we Jaded if we don't care that Justice is not applied to Wealth Corporations and Executives. That the Poor people are prosecuted to the fullest with every imaginable Law and each count possible by prosecutors that just want to further their career.

We are taught to respect the law, but a guy with Marijauana goes to jail for a year or more and has his lift changed for ever over something that did not hurt anyone.

But when 84,000 Pension Programs get cancelled, Total retirement assets, Americans' second-largest household asset, dropped by 22%, from $10.3 trillion in 2006 to $8 trillion in mid-2008. During the same period, savings and investment assets (apart from retirement savings) lost $1.2 trillion and pension assets lost $1.3 trillion. Taken together, these losses total a staggering $8.3 trillion.[185] Since peaking in the second quarter of 2007, household wealth is down $14 trillion.[186]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Financial_crisis_of_2007%E2%80%9308#Wealth_effects

Okay, as I understand it the 401K Retirement fund have proven to be of little use except that Financial Managers have made money on fees and problem bet against the investments in 401Ks.

So, it is clear that there are 4 Classes of People in the USA

1) Bankers, Wealthy Corporate Executives, Rich People, Politicians, Lobbyists, Lawyers, and Crony Capitalist that have made it. it is a lot like organized crime. These are made people. They can do what they want in private, hire security, hire courtiers to take care of them and their appointments, and they have little concern for criminal law or lawsuits. They put people in office in the state and federal level. They put people in to Universities, Think tanks, Foundations, and can provide a whole career to someone that they need.

2) People that work with government, bankers, that do get some protections, but don't make a lot of money. You might be here.

3) Those with no pull in politics, government, but who have a career or steady employment. These people might be self employed or in construction.

4) People that are just nothing.

You're lack of Interest in the American Dream is Meaningful. You lack of interest in Equality is meaningful. You lack of compassion for the people that end up in our prisons and what that might mean is very regretful.

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (35002) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

[-] 0 points by AlwaysWiIlBeAlwaysRight (-26) 6 minutes ago

  • The basis for Investigation: Follow the Money

False. The basis for investigation = follow the evidence.

Everything else you wrote below is just speculation which isn't interesting at all.

↥twinkle ↧stinkle reply permalink

WTF do you think that following the money is?

Clueless asshole - the money is evidence - how it traveled and to whom and for what reason. Leading to facts as to what happened.

[-] -2 points by AlwaysWiIlBeAlwaysRight (-82) 1 year ago

I don't like to speculate. Trying to guess what happened to these people isn't interesting to me. Evidence is.

For example, Gary Webb looked like a suicide. His wife wasn't surprised as she stated he had been depressed for years and had difficulty finding a job and supporting his family. He had written personal suicide notes to all his children and his wife. The coroner ruled it a suicide.

For me to believe otherwise, I would need to see evidence that he was murdered. I haven't seen that.

I find guesses and assumptions utterly boring. I like to solve problems that can be solved. If I don't have all the elements, then I mark it as unsolvable and I'm fine with that. I prefer something unsolvable to a delusion that pretends to solve something unsolvable.

BTW - Gary Webb is a great example of a good researcher .A great investigative journalist he was. We need more people like him instead of bone head conspiracy theorists.

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (35002) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

I don't like to speculate.

BullShit - you provide information (copy/paste) - lately definitions ( ones you do not even comprehend ) - then you spout some BS as to how that translates. U R full of shit. AwayshavebeenAlwayswillbe - full of shit.

[-] 1 points by Middleaged (5140) 1 year ago

The basis for Investigation: Follow the Money

Ever see Greg Palast Videos on Koch Brothers and Vulture Capitalism????

Seems like we could look at he above Suicides by Following the money. The problem is the Police, Scientist, Military Authority, Military Junta, they secure the Evidence.

Which means you have to look at Subjects where the Evidence has only partially been confiscated or... financial crimes where there was no Investigation.

What does it tell us if there was no FBI Staffing to Investigate Wall Street Fraud in the Case of AAA Rated Junk Derivities, NINJA Loans packaged and sold without documentation and proper assessment by Wall Street Investment banks and sold to customers world wide???

What does it say that the Federal Reserve and Bail Out money went to foreign countries?

What does it say that the Lessons from the Savings & Loan Crisis taught congress never to call major campaign contributors to testify in from of Congress.... and that it took a team of 5000 FBI agents and the early cooperation of State banks and State Prosecutors to pull together all the evidence to start investigations and prosecutions in the FBI ... but that Obama only had like less than 900 investigators in the FBI and that the FBI didn't request evidence from the State Banks and state DAs.

William K. Black prosecuted Banks and Executives in the S&L scandal resulting in over 4000 convictions over 10 years with a team of like 5000 in the FBI, He testified against 5 Congressmen who tried to cover up the crimes of Keating, The Keating Five. And the first action was to put the Banks into Receivership in the RTC to divest the banks of their assets under bankruptcy.

William K. Black is quiet a tool for learning. he has numerous articles and Video available for free. He is often interviewed. He is an American Hero and maybe the last to stand up to the Banking Trust.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Money_trust

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_K._Black

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keating_Five

Are you interested in Wall Street Investment Fraud????

[-] 1 points by shooz (17722) 1 year ago

"I don't like to speculate."

When did out and out lying fail to be speculation?

You do lie a lot.

Here's a non theoretical conspiracy.

http://www.politicususa.com/darrell-issa-refusing-co-chairs-benghazi-review-testify-public.html

[-] 1 points by shooz (17722) 1 year ago
[-] -1 points by AlwaysWiIlBeAlwaysRight (-82) 1 year ago

He's in the nut job category - "by nutjobs and 14 year olds"

Yes, those are 5 important scandals. Why not start a new post about them? It's a bit off topic on this page about conspiracy theories.

[-] 1 points by shooz (17722) 1 year ago

But you still haven't dealt with the conspiracy theories you cooked up and reported on your own.

You were supposed to delete yourself over it.

Gosh, I hope you're not in the 14yr old category, but I'm beginning to have my doubts.

[-] 1 points by shooz (17722) 1 year ago

http://thinkprogress.org/politics/2013/05/17/2026851/5-major-scandals-the-media-isnt-obsessing-about/

Why not pick an issue?

There's plenty more where those came from.

[-] 2 points by arturo (3169) from Shanghai, Shanghai 1 year ago

Again, you show your bigotry by saying that conspiracy theorists are all the same.

[-] -3 points by LoneRanger (-307) 1 year ago

They all use flawed research methods. That's the definition of conspiracy theorists. It's in opposition to proper investigating which is referred to as investigative journalism or historical analysis.

The problem is you don't understand the definition of conspiracy theorists.

[-] 2 points by shooz (17722) 1 year ago

Considering all the austerity budget plans are based on flawed research, wouldn't that make all of those who have and still do promote such plans, conspiracy theorists?

We should also be asking how someone as illustrious as yourself and so perfect in logic could have missed the most glaring and destructive theory of all.

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (35002) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

Conspirators.

Damn there goes the theory part.

[-] 1 points by shooz (17722) 1 year ago

The research was sponsored by..........get this.

Pete Peterson.

Of course it's being promoted by "other" entities throughout the World.

Though proven wrong, beyond a shadow of a doubt, it's still being promoted and advanced.

Perhaps a list of the conspirators is in order?

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (35002) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

That's how they operate blatant lies repeated endlessly. Even subtle lies repeated endlessly.

But lately they are having a real hard time being subtle or even getting into that neighborhood.

[-] 1 points by shooz (17722) 1 year ago

They're not having a hard time at all. Their agenda is still advancing, in spite of the occasional bump.

Ask around, and I'll bet you'll find few that have even heard about it, let alone what it really means to austerity budgets.

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (35002) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

Sad thing is the evil of austerity stares one right in the eye. It is far from being subtle or clever.

[-] -3 points by LoneRanger (-307) 1 year ago

Conspiracy theories are not just about flawed research. It's also a type of narrative where an evil force is presumed responsible for all the wrongs in the world.

I wouldn't call austerity budget plans conspiracy theories. And, I don't think they are based on flawed research. I think the people making those plans know exactly what they are doing. It's based on corruption.

You think bankers don't know what they are doing? You think their schemes are merely based on flawed research? No my friend. The people in WallStreet fuck us up with very well research plans. They know exactly how to corrupt the system and make the 1% profit. This is proven fact, and a lot of evidence supports it.

[-] 1 points by shooz (17722) 1 year ago

NO!

I've given you a very real issue.

You have not answered the question.

Pull your head out of the sand and answer it.

[-] -2 points by LoneRanger (-307) 1 year ago

I did answer your question. Read my comment again. Austerity budgets are made by design by WallStreet to profit from the 99%. They are not based on flawed research. It's the opposite. They are highly researched so that they can make the rich profit and the poor poorer. This has been shown to be true by serious journalists using serious research. In many countries, the type of people who plot these austerity measures are brought to court with damning evidence against them.

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (35002) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

Wow - R U spouting Conspiracy theory?

Who woulda thunk it ( besides everyone)

Huh

But so blatant of U twister.

[Removed]

[-] -2 points by LoneRanger (-307) 1 year ago

But your "just" saying it - makes it a theory. U little conspiracy theorist U. Hiding in plain sight.

You think brokers and bankers on WallStreet are honest people who happened to base their decisions on a flawed theory?

If so, that's because you haven't read the works of important journalists. Many many serious researchers have uncovered the techniques used by brokers and bankers on WallStreet to screw us all.

If you believe they just made an honest mistake, why are you part of OWS? OWS is based on knowing they fuck us over. That's why we fight against them. We have evidence on our side.

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (35002) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

You think brokers and bankers on WallStreet are honest people who happened to base their decisions on a flawed theory?

Nope.

See now there U go again - U present no evidence - but want to be takin seriously.

Sucks when U R wearing the conspiracy theory shoe - Hey?

[-] -2 points by LoneRanger (-307) 1 year ago

It's not a conspiracy theory. There's all kinds of evidence that brokers and bankers on WallStreet breaks rules to do corruption. It's based on solid research, unlike chemtrails, and other nonsensical ideas from Alex Jones?

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (35002) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

But your "just" saying it - makes it a theory.

U little conspiracy theorist U.

Hiding in plain sight.

[-] 1 points by shooz (17722) 1 year ago

Nope. You didn't.

You pretended you didn't know about the research, which means you couldn't possibly answer it.

I thought you claimed to be logical.

You're far to blind and unobservant for that.

YES, the research that resulted in austerity budgets is flawed.

Proven.

[-] -3 points by LoneRanger (-307) 1 year ago

The austerity measures were carefully planned by corrupted bankers and brokers. Many of them broke the law knowingly. There is a lot of evidence for this. You need to start reading good journalists, and political scientists.

If you think the brokers and bankers on WallStreet operate in random fashion without careful planning and research, you are sorely mistaken my friend. They fuck you up everyday, and they have it researched and down like a science.

[-] 2 points by shooz (17722) 1 year ago

You're still ignoring my statement, and you still haven't answered the question.

My guess is, like a lot of other trolls, you will merely run out the thread without ever answering anything at all.

Indeed, you will ignore the subject and attempt to change it.

There's got to be one of your vaunted logical fallacies there, don't you agree?

[-] 1 points by arturo (3169) from Shanghai, Shanghai 1 year ago

There you go again, they're all the same.

At various times in history, any number of people have been "defined" by the authorities as in some way inferior. With progress, we get beyond such bigotry.

[-] 0 points by LoneRanger (-307) 1 year ago

The problem is you don't understand the definition of conspiracy theories. It's a form of pseudoscience, of quackery. Like astrology, and other pseudosciences, it's not evidence based. That's the definition. It's not a question of bigotry, it's a question of definitions.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (35002) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

The problem is you don't understand the definition of conspiracy theories.

No you don't. Very unlike you 2 admit it. All you know is the derogatory BS that has been put out to belittle and dismiss.

[-] -2 points by LoneRanger (-307) 1 year ago

Read up on conspiracy theories. Then come back to the discussion. What you're doing is essentially protecting right-wing disinformation from people like Alex Jones. As an Occupier, you shouldn't do that. We want a society based on socialism. We shouldn't help right wingers achieve their goals.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (35002) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

The term was put on the hit list to be discredited due to the Kennedy Assassination. You? You are just a repeater of the BS. A propagator of Shit so to say.

[-] 1 points by arturo (3169) from Shanghai, Shanghai 1 year ago

So, if two hundred years ago, blacks were defined as animals rather than humans being, you would have accepted that definition, because it was the official definition.

[-] -1 points by LoneRanger (-307) 1 year ago

No because it wasn't based on any evidence at all. That's why not everybody bought into those claims at the time. But, your question is essentially useless because it's impossible to know what I would have thought had I been a product of that time. We have made great advances in philosophy, logic, and research methods since then. I am aware of those advances, so it's impossible for me to imagine myself unaware of them.

Those advances were made because we started caring about evidence. Back in those days, there were a whole bunch of quackeries because evidence wasn't so important. Doctors would bleed patients to death for example. We don't need to think like this anymore. Conspiracy theorists prolong this bad type of thought, and it's a real shame. We have the tools for proper analysis now. We should use them, and keep improving them when we discern flaws.

[-] 1 points by arturo (3169) from Shanghai, Shanghai 1 year ago

Not everybody today buys into the claims that are made by official definitions.

You are equally a product of the times today, as you would have been back then.

You don't know what tools conspiracy theorists use for their research. You only know that you disagree with their results.

[-] -1 points by LoneRanger (-307) 1 year ago

So based on your own reasoning, even Noam Chomsky could be wrong today. New evidence may arise that could prove that even he is wrong. It could be that science will auto correct itself in this way.

We may find that the mainstream ideology of today is just quackery, as were many mainstream ideas of the past. It may take a while because people want to believe in the delusions provided by mainstream authorities, so they disregard any evidence that isn't verified by those authorities.

Sure, but what's your point? This is normal. Our knowledge always improves. However, you can't just say Naom Chomsky is wrong without providing evidence. When Einstein showed that Newtonian physics were wrong, he just didn't say it was, he wrote out equations and provided evidence. Then observations confirmed his theory giving even more evidence.

It could be possible that the method or research used by conspiracy theorists which is based on formulating a conclusion then trying to find facts that fit that conclusion and ignoring facts that don't is better than using the rigorous scientific method or using journalist investigating which is based on what we know consider proper research methodology. Sure.

However, you need to provide evidence as to why this would be. Things will change in the future when evidence is provided.

So, my challenge to you as a self proclaimed conspiracy theorist is to provide evidence for your claims. And, when people debunk some of your evidence if it is flawed, then you need to accept this. You need to publish your findings and discuss your evidence with people of all forms of life. You should also learn about logical fallacies so that you can avoid them.

If you provide claims backed up by strong evidence, then I will believe those claims until better evidence is provided for other theories.

The problem is, you haven't done that. What you do is provide assumptions and talk about possibilities. Oh! Maybe it's possible the government is creating FEMA camps to enslave us all, maybe it's possible chemtrails are being used to lower the population count, etc... These are of no interest because you have no evidence to support those claims.

So yeah, grow up, be a man and support your claims with evidence. Also try to read something different than LaRouche.

[-] 1 points by arturo (3169) from Shanghai, Shanghai 1 year ago

There is plenty of evidence, massive amounts of documentation, the failure of our entire economy. But you always do what you advise other people not to, which is to judge that evidence based on your preconceptions. You believe that the failure of the economy could not have been caused by a conspiracy and will reject any evidence to the contrary.

So take your own advice, grow up and be a man. Try to read something outside of the mainstream propaganda.

[-] -1 points by LoneRanger (-307) 1 year ago

Today, your official definition of conspiracy theories is passed on by politicians who want to profit from their conspiracies.

Hmmm... no. The official definition of conspiracy theory was created by scholars like Naom Chomsky.

Centuries before that, the official position of scholars was that the universe revolved around the earth. You need to study history, or you will be doomed to repeat it, just as you are doing now.

It was, but it was because of the evidence they had at the time. When new evidence arose, they realized they were wrong. This is how science works. It auto-corrects itself.

This is entirely different than quackery and conspiracy theories. Astrology still exists today because evidence is of no important to them. Similarly, 911 conspiracy theorists still believe in their delusions because they don't care about evidence. They have been seriously debunked for 12 years, but they haven't dropped their theories or otherwise adapted. This is the main difference between science and pseudoscience. Science keeps changing and adapting.

We're going to hear conspiracy theorists talk about chemtrails forever because they refuse all evidence that proves them wrong. That particular conspiracy theory has been beheaded and debunked, but it's still going strong 20 years after it started.


There's nothing wrong with being wrong when you have evaluated the evidence at your disposal. What's wrong is refusing new evidence which should make your remodel your conceptions and theories. Newton was wrong, Einstein was more correct, but I'm sure he'll be proven wrong to a certain extent in the future. That's fine. Conspiracy theorists refuse to remodel their theories when confronted with new evidence. That's delusion.

[-] 2 points by arturo (3169) from Shanghai, Shanghai 1 year ago

So based on your own reasoning, even Noam Chomsky could be wrong today. New evidence may arise that could prove that even he is wrong. It could be that science will auto correct itself in this way.

We may find that the mainstream ideology of today is just quackery, as were many mainstream ideas of the past. It may take a while because people want to believe in the delusions provided by mainstream authorities, so they disregard any evidence that isn't verified by those authorities.

[-] -1 points by LoneRanger (-307) 1 year ago

A definition is a definition. It's not really arguable. Blue is blue. A horse is a horse. A conspiracy theorist is a conspiracy theorist. If we can't agree on dictionary definitions, then no talk is possible.

You don't know what tools conspiracy theorists use for their research. You only know that you disagree with their results.

I know what tools they use. I studied them in great detail. I can give you tons of examples. One of their main tools is quote mining. Movies like Zeitgeist are full of those. They use quotes out of context, use partial quotes, etc... Another one of their tools is cherry picking facts. The tiniest fact that helps their conclusion is focused upon, the biggest facts that go against it are ignored.

I could give you hundreds of examples, let's start with one.

A few days after 911, BBC claimed that some of the hijackers were still alive in London. A few days later, that claimed was retracted as an error. It was revealed that those people mistaken for hijackers in London were people with similar names.

To this day, 12 years after 911, if you go on 911 Truther websites you'll notice they mention the first BBC article, but they never mention the retractions. They cherry pick facts. Even if you say, as any conspiracy theorist would, that the retractions were ordered by the government to hide the conspiracy, it's still a problem that conspiracy theorists choose to hide this fact. They should tell the whole story and let the readers decide. They don't. They cherry pick.

Another logical fallacy they use is appeal to authority. They'll often post a video of someone with an uncorroborated testimony and claim it must be true because he's an ex-FBI agent, or some other big job. Problem is, the testimony is uncorroborated, so it is only an anecdote, not real evidence.

Another biggy is the use of ad hominem to refute all claims that go against their predetermined conclusions. When someone presents evidence contrary to theirs, they'll say that person is in on the conspiracy, trying to hide it. He's a government agent.

Another thing they use is correlation without a cause. They take coincidences and attribute causation without backing that up with evidence.

Their is a ton of other logical fallacies and disinformation tools they use.

[-] 2 points by arturo (3169) from Shanghai, Shanghai 1 year ago

So, two hundred years ago, if Africans were "defined" as a lower life form than human beings, you would have said "A definition is a definition. It's not really arguable."

[-] -3 points by LoneRanger (-307) 1 year ago

So, two hundred years ago, if Africans were "defined" as a lower life form than human beings, you would have said "A definition is a definition. It's not really arguable."

This was not dictionary definition. It was a definition only held by a a few. Many did not buy into that concept. It's not a definition you would have found in medical journals, or by people like Charles Darwin. It was passed along by politicians who wanted to profit from slavery. I trust scholars, not politicians.

You need to study your history.

[-] 2 points by arturo (3169) from Shanghai, Shanghai 1 year ago

Slavery existed on a wide scale because people thought that Africans were animals. Many bought into the concept but some do not. Today it is the same.

Today, your official definition of conspiracy theories is passed on by politicians who want to profit from their conspiracies.

Centuries before that, the official position of scholars was that the universe revolved around the earth. You need to study history, or you will be doomed to repeat it, just as you are doing now.

[-] 3 points by faothestormborn (4) 1 year ago

Not all conspiracy theories are a time waster or lack evidence or are based in fantasy. Some of them open peoples' eyes to the fact that something is very wrong. If one suddenly knows with gross detail how deep some of these lies goes they are well within their right to begin to distrust the government -- it is rotten to its core and there are only certain individuals making it worth salvaging in this state. How the world currently operates, isn't helping as much as it could.

Instead of bashing ALL conspiracy theories we should look at the ones which have validity and can change the world. "Conspiracy" just means something is done covertly -- on the need to know -- that is how the government operates. When you have things even the president can't know, or the congress can't gain access to, you have a serious issue.

There are mainy realities at play and I feel your post doesn't genuinely express what's going on -- yes, there are many distractions -- but these are things that matter to people. Whether they be children getting raped by the Vatican, vaccines causing autism, death etc, or the FDA passing drugs through which do more harm then good. Everyone has their own fight, and I know it's wrong to say they shouldn't be focusing on the things they care about. Whether what they're doing is strategic or not, is another story. There are ways to get information out about things that can be beneficial and enlightening to the cause. Bashing all conspiracy analysis is not one of those ways.

[+] -4 points by DarkLordOfTruth (-43) 1 year ago

All conspiracy theories are junk. They are based on bad research method as per the definition. They blur the line between reality and fiction. They are America's biggest danger. All conspiracy theorists are deluded crackpots.

If someone does proper research and uncovers a conspiracy that is supported by evidence, it is called investigative journalism, it is not called a conspiracy theory.

Bashing all conspiracy analysis is not one of those ways.

Conspiracy theories don't contain any analysis. They contain logical fallacies. They are based on lies.

Investigative journalism can contain conspiracy analysis. This is fine.

What we care about is evidence. If someone makes a claim, let him take the responsibility of using evidence to back it up. Conspiracy theorists never do that.

[-] 2 points by Middleaged (5140) 1 year ago

What makes you think you have the Right to Know what food is GMO and what GMO Food will do to you?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=LICQCxq1FqU#!

There is no Law that says GMO Food Must be Labled in the USA. So we have been eating it for years in Corn, Soy, Canola, Sugar (Sugar Beets).

But don't worry. It is a Noble Lie. It is not a Conspiracy. It is for the Good of the Empire. In fact they have a Spermicidal Corn that makes men infertile. They will only use it when we have food or disease problems in the USA though.

Late ADD: Originally Laws were mainly to Regulate Commerce. Citizens were protected from Commerce and the Traffic and Hazards that Commerce created on our Roads, Railways, Etc. But Corporations figured out what strategies they needed and how to fight in Court, Supreme Court, and in Congress and all Regulatory Agencies by providing Career Tracks in Universities and in Industry to Regulators and Academics.

[-] 2 points by windyacres (1002) 1 year ago

Shouldn't we be expecting disinformation? To keep control, there will probably be more and more conspiracy theories so that the point is reached when no one knows what the truth is anymore. We could find ourselves calling truth a conspiracy theory and doing nothing.

Evidence is exactly what we need to determine fact from fiction. This has to involve all of us accepting something that makes us squeamish, and that is more and more cameras in public spaces. Government and public officials should especially expect to be held accountable. I have proposed this before and I agree that it is an unpleasant feeling of a slippery slope concerning privacy. We need to establish and insist on privacy in our private matters.

[-] 1 points by WSmith (4187) from Cornelius, OR 1 year ago
[-] 1 points by mideast (506) 1 year ago

I'd put it slightly differently - conspiracy theories generally assemble a group of facts and pseudo-facts together and the "prove" their pre-determined conclusion

alex jones & jesse ventura & many religions
& many philosophies & republiclans especially do this.


the benefit of this approarch is that if you adopt their theory -
...................YOU DO NOT HAVE TO THINK OR REASON
.............................................................................YOU JUST OBEY

[-] 3 points by ZenDog (13204) from South Burlington, VT 1 year ago

the fact is this is a lot more complicated than you suggest. We are witnessing an exponential growth in the culture of surveillance; the drug culture is itself a sub-culture that by its very nature supports this exponential growth; it forms the intersection of Conspiracy and techniques of intimidation using tools of surveillance combined with: mobbing, guerrilla theater, neural linguistic reprogramming, targeted advertising; and it forms a fertile ground for researchers examining any number of questions regarding: the elasticity of personality, systems of belief, theories involving Games, Chaos, and Complexity . . .

With all of this BULLSHIT going on people encounter experiences they cannot explain, and so they seek answers, they seek understanding, it is in a very real sense, a vacuum, one that will be filled one way or the other.

Fools like Alex Jones, Glenn Beck, and all the rest often arise, I believe, as a result of their own need for answers, and in the process become useful tools in the dissemination of DISINFORMATION designed to fill that vacuum, while at the same time providing cover for the entire culture of surveillance that is producing these questions, this vacuum.

IT is MADNESS

It has multiple adverse affects throughout society, including the growth of distrust for everything and everyone perceived as a part of the establishment - from the press to public health.

Conspiracy Exists. IT is a growth industry. We must find a way to make this bullshit stop.

[-] -3 points by DarkLordOfTruth (-43) 1 year ago

Luckily, the antidote is quite simple. We need to teach proper logical, the art of identifying logical fallacies, and proper research methods. People who are taught to think critically and demand evidence are not easily fooled by charlatans. Unfortunately, the current education system in US is a pure failure. That's why more than 50% on this website believe, and I would even say, worship, conspiracy theory type thinking. They believe such bad research leads to the truth. They fail to realize their minds have entered a world of fantastical delusions. The likes of arturo are already sick and lost. They cannot be saved. We must help the next generation. The youth.

[-] 4 points by ZenDog (13204) from South Burlington, VT 1 year ago

For someone who prizes reason and logic you sure did miss the obvious.

YOu state the current education system is itself a pure failure, point to the widespread result of that failure, and insist that what we must do is help the next generation.

How do you propose to help the next generation if WE CANNOT HELP OURSELVES.

What you suggest, does in my view, simply serve as one more distraction from dealing with THE REALITY OF TODAY.

[-] -3 points by DarkLordOfTruth (-43) 1 year ago

We can help by pushing for a better educational system. We must fight those who want to teach creationism in science class. We must demand that schools have classes on research methodology, on logic, and on logical fallacies.

How do you propose to help the next generation if WE CANNOT HELP OURSELVES.

We can help ourselves. Anyone can study logic, research methods, and logical fallacies. Things needed for critical thinking. There are already a bunch of websites out there and many good books in the library. The problem is adults who have fallen into conspiracy theories don't want to help themselves, it's not that they cannot. They've essentially been brainwashed. They follow LaRouche (Larouchies) and Alex Jones as if they were their cult leaders.

Those of us who were lucky enough to learn critical thinking either from our families or in school have the responsibility of helping the school system to better teach the next generation.

Personally, I think it is already too late for America. The vast majority of Americans are already deluded beyond hope and I thank god I am not from that country. It's not a place I like to visit. Americans are generally just dumb, stupid, and dangerous.

However, there are many parts of the world where we can still fight conspiracy theories, where people have a better basic education. It's our responsibility to make sure the American brain disease of conspiracy theories does not spread outside of US.

[-] -2 points by DarkLordOfTruth (-43) 1 year ago

That's pretty much right. Conspiracy theories function like religions. People who follow them do it like a cult member. It's a disease of the mind.

[-] 0 points by Sockpuppet33 (-4) 1 year ago
  • Information is needed in determining the truth.

  • Those who control information, control the truth.

[-] 1 points by shooz (17722) 1 year ago

Information is not truth.

Truth is not necessarily information.

Sock puppets are not capable of either.

So there you go.

[-] -1 points by LoneRanger (-307) 1 year ago

He never said information was truth, or that information equates truth. Are you illiterate? He said that information is needed in determining the truth.

[-] 2 points by shooz (17722) 1 year ago

That may be so, but you're a sock puppet.

You're not capable of either.

You are limited to logical fallacies.

Fallacies you are unable to see by introspection.

[-] -2 points by LoneRanger (-307) 1 year ago

A lame logical fallacy - appeal to motive because I have sock puppets. That doesn't change the fact that you are illiterate and incapable of understanding basic English.

[-] 0 points by shooz (17722) 1 year ago

Sock puppets are incapable of truth and unable to process information.

You are a sitting, typing, logical fallacy.

You are a puppet.

You are a lie personified.

Nothing more.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (35002) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

He's(?) a Nowhere Man - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7mj7Rlh2lJo - kind of anyway - as it has all sorts of misinformation point of views. But also with all kinds of Nowhere plans. Just see what it wants to see.

[-] 1 points by shooz (17722) 1 year ago

If only he were the only one around here.

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (35002) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

2 true - I do think that it is a lot of them.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (35002) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

Ever wonder - how many of those lost billions - actually floated to an off-shore haven?

[-] 1 points by shooz (17722) 1 year ago

I believe it was around 40 billion that was taken, at least some of which was never accounted for.

You know it's still out there somewhere.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (35002) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

Enron Sentences Will Be Tied to Investor Losses - MSNBC.com www.nbcnews.com/id/12993408/ns/business-corporate_scand... May 26, 2006 ... Just how much time former Enron Corp. chiefs Kenneth Lay and Jeffrey Skilling spend in prison could hinge on how much of the more than $60 billion...

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (35002) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

You know it's still out there somewhere.

Yep - hidden amongst trillions of other "lost" money.

[-] 0 points by shooz (17722) 1 year ago

Is there a scriptwriter in the house??

I can see at least 15 movies in this.

I'm surprised, no one's tried.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (35002) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

Shakes the power base too much?

Brings the PTB too much into the limelight?

Verboten?

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (35002) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

This guy gets out and there's not a word.

SURPRISE?????

HELL NO!!!!!

Gotta keep that SHIT quiet. http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2013/05/10/1996331/using-expensive-legal-claims-as-leverage-top-enron-fraudster-reaches-deal-to-slash-sentence/

Asshole should be experiencing a "BernieMadoff" = life no chance of parole.

Instead:

"Even when Jeffrey Skilling was first sentenced for conspiring in one of the largest corporate fraud schemes in modern history, he received less jail time than some low-level drug offenders sentenced to harsh mandatory minimums. But this week, Skilling reached a deal with the Department of Justice to cut his 24-year sentence to as little as 14 years, in exchange for abandoning the onslaught of appeals he has launched at his own expense. Reuters reports:

The agreement … could result in Skilling’s freedom in late 2018, with good behavior."

Makes for a nasty Tweet

Using Expensive Legal Claims As Leverage, Top Enron Fraudster Reaches Deal To Slash Sentence http://thkpr.gs/10gIwQG via @thinkprogress

[-] 1 points by shooz (17722) 1 year ago

I wonder if they are still looking for the guy that got away?

He had at least $350 million.

I never heard another word.

I know Skilling will be looking for him once he gets out, if he hasn't found him already.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (35002) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

His location is no-doubt known - probably from Day 1.

I know Skilling will be looking for him once he gets out, if he hasn't found him already.

If only to get updated on "his" current holdings.

[-] 1 points by shooz (17722) 1 year ago

See?

We have our own conspiracy theory in development here.

I wonder what that 350 is worth today.

It was in the hands of one of the Worlds most talented shysters.

Is there a movie in development yet?

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (35002) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

Is there a movie in development yet?

It is surprising that it has not been cashed in on yet. Hey?

[-] -1 points by DarkLordOfTruth (-43) 1 year ago

Indeed your point?

[-] 0 points by OccNoVi (415) 1 year ago

Conspiracy theory == distraction.

Hoax == political disinformation.

For hoaxes, consider the information agenda of the National Rifle Association. They lie even more consistently than Fox News, which is saying something. Here are their four main themes:

-- http://occupywallst.org/forum/national-rifle-association-and-their-three-hoaxes/ - and yes, that's been augmented with a fourth hoax but the link remains the same.

The CT distractions absorb energies that could be better aimed at real world evils. In effect, the millions that get spent supporting the larger CT schemes serve as protection for the criminal acts that cause real world disasters. One example is the Explosives-In-The-Buildings CT related to WTC collapse.

-- You will find CGI and FX video online that claims to prove that WTC #1 and #2 were brought down by explosives, not by the destruction from the two airliners.

-- One central thesis is that South Tower came down faster than gravity BECAUSE of explosives going off inside. Great CT. Absurd for engineering because a massive explosion inside would push the upper section of the building up, slowing the descent.

-- America's paranoids were led to believe that Jews had conspired to bring down the towers. Instead, left to their own devices, these people might well have focused on FAA and their failures to protect airliners from hijacking. Al Qaeda "Afghansi" had taken over Air France 8969 at Christmas of 1994, intending to crash into the Eiffel Tower.

Do imagine if America's paranoids had targeted the FAA bureaucrats and their ties to PNAC and the calls for a "new Pearl Harbor" to initiate a perpetual war against terrorism.

The hoaxes carry much more power than the CT scams. They turn out votes and attract large amounts of money over time. NRA and the anti-abortion groups attract tens of millions of dollars as they generate single-issue vote commitments.

Anti-abortion remains the strongest source for Republican votes. Depending on zip code, the contribution ranges from 20% to 40% of total GOP turnout in general elections. But there is no positive correlation linking electing Republicans with reducing the numbers of abortions -- GOP antipathy to sex ed contributes to rises in unplanned pregnancies.

Effectively, GOP opposition to abortion is a hoax. If they really wanted to reduce abortions, they would start with sex ed and work hard to support adoptions. Instead, it's a game to see who can screech "Librul Baby Killer !!" the loudest.

One hoax after another. That's the GOP and their RWNJ moneybags.

[-] 1 points by elation (-32) from New York, NY 1 year ago

what are your thoughts on building 7?

[-] 0 points by elation (-32) from New York, NY 1 year ago

because barry jennings who worked there and said there were explosions there died after telling his story that completely contradicted the official story. He's also found in the news footage.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5LO5V2CJpzI

also http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZ2mx_AS9L4

Do check those out and report back.

[-] 1 points by OccNoVi (415) 1 year ago

It is physically impossible that massive explosions affected the fall of the Towers.

The explosions were the copy machines and printers, which explode in every large office building fire. Read the warnings. The surviving first responders heard these explosions and many of the firemen had heard the same things earlier at other fires.

Get real.

And what about the suicide-hijacking attempt that took over Air France 8969 in 1994 ??? And what FAA did not do subsequently? And the PNAC connections? And the call for their "new Pearl Harbor" for terrorism ?

D'oh.

[-] -1 points by DarkLordOfTruth (-43) 1 year ago

We want evidence, not lame YouTube videos. It's been 12 years. If you have nothing but YouTube videos than you shouldn't waste people's time with your conspiracy theory mumbo jumbo. The explosive theory has been debunked, beheaded, thrown in the garbage. It's dead beyond belief. Those who still believe conspiracy theorists on this one are either absolutely deluded beyond hope, or don't care or don't know anything about evidence.

One question you could ask is what the hell would be the point of using explosives if this was a government plan. It would only make it easier to reveal the plan, and if revealed the government would be dead. Planes hitting the buildings would be more than enough to start a war. Those who believe in the explosive theory are just dumb.

[-] -1 points by elation (-32) from New York, NY 1 year ago

really, did you check barry jennings credentials, and i have to ask did you even see the second video? A video is a video it doesn't matter what medium it is brought on what matters is if it is veritas or not.

[-] -1 points by elation (-32) from New York, NY 1 year ago

if i hypothetically went to promethei planum (mars pole) and discovered something extraordinary and put it on youtube, would you then label it as incredulous because it was on youtube.. you've trapped yourself in your preconcieved notions. What matters is fact checking not the medium which with it is presented.

[-] -2 points by LoneRanger (-307) 1 year ago

If you found something extraordinary in the mars pole and put it on youtube, but no where else I would think you're either an idiot, or incredulous. Videos can be manipulated. They don't mean that much. If you found something extraordinary on the mars pole I would hope you research it with samples, you write an article in a peer-reviewed scientific journal, you have other scientists analyze your finding. If you did all that then you could put a video on youtube, but that video would mostly be for entertainment purposes.

Real scientists write in peer reviewed journals, they don't publish videos on YouTube. Medium does matter. Medium is the message.

[-] -1 points by elation (-32) from New York, NY 1 year ago

ah but you're missing the point let's say someone wouldn't like that to be public knowledge.. as in let's say someone wouldn't like it to be public knowledge that there was a stand down order at benghazi.. then what

[-] -1 points by elation (-32) from New York, NY 1 year ago

correct me if i'm wrong but you don't really seem like the type that would try to vet something that didn't fit into your nice and tidy world view. And that's pretty much what you get. Yet ironically you have zero problems calling such things batshit crazy.

[-] -2 points by LoneRanger (-307) 1 year ago

I don't have a preconceived world view. I accept any idea supported by evidence. I call delusional or bat shit crazy those who actively promote ideas which aren't based on evidence. People like Alex Jones, other conspiracy theorists, creationists, etc... All forms of quackery. These people are swindlers and they are dangerous.

[-] -2 points by elation (-32) from New York, NY 1 year ago

so who has the evidential upper hand.. not you really.. tbqh you seem more wanting to defend your current view of things than anything else that you come across.. And that's fine.

[-] -2 points by elation (-32) from New York, NY 1 year ago

what does that mean, well the point is you would have no problem in the days of copernicus to argue that the earth was the center of the universe, all evidence pointed towards it (well it really didn't but atleast what was presented to you). Do you realize your own predicament with this reliance on shifty matters?

[-] -2 points by elation (-32) from New York, NY 1 year ago

and furthemore no doubt those who would suggest otherwise would be total dingbats in your book, along with the actual crazy ones that said the earth was square or something..Yet you'd be completely and utterly wrong, but you were so blinded by the establishments narrative that nothing else would make sense atleast for the foreseeable future.. and that's a problem. Although you'd probably feel quite good about yourself for doing so as all do who trust in such things weither truth or false

[-] -2 points by elation (-32) from New York, NY 1 year ago

the reason i'm giving you a hard time about this is that you utterly dismiss the testimony of for instance barry jennings as total hogwash seen on youtube.. without even understanding the ramifications of who this guy really was.. And because of this you only see what you want to see..

I have no doubt that you're a very smart individual. But noone can show you something which you do not want to see.

[-] -2 points by LoneRanger (-307) 1 year ago

A testimony by itself is not evidence. Testimonies need to be corroborated by other unrelated testimonies, or other types of evidence. We should always dismiss isolated testimonies.

Who the guy was does not matter. That's a logical fallacy - appeal to authority. When doing serious research, testimonies which cannot be corroborated are dismissed. Always.

But noone can show you something which you do not want to see.

I'm open to seeing anything that is supported by evidence. Isolated testimonies don't count as evidence, they count as anecdotes. Serious researchers don't base their work on that.

[-] -1 points by elation (-32) from New York, NY 1 year ago

he worked at the building in quite an influential position, so it's not an isolated testimony and well within the context of the vetting. Though for general practice i agree with you.

[-] -3 points by LoneRanger (-307) 1 year ago

he worked at the building in quite an influential position, so it's not an isolated testimony and well within the context of the vetting. Though for general practice i agree with you.

It doesn't matter where he worked or what he did. It is an isolated testimony unless it is corroborated with other pieces of evidence. For example, a testimony from someone else who never heard the testimony of Jennings would add weight to his testimony.

When police interview witnesses they isolate them for this very reason. They want to see if the testimonies corroborate themselves or not. They also look at physical evidence to see if they match with the testimonies.

If you don't have that, you really have nothing but an anecdote. It's essentially worthless in terms of research material.

[-] -3 points by LoneRanger (-307) 1 year ago

and furthemore no doubt those who would suggest otherwise would be total dingbats in your book, along with the actual crazy ones that said the earth was square or something..

They wouldn't be if they provide evidence for their claims. I would only consider them crazy if they claim truth without any evidence to back it up. Like creationists or conspiracy theorists. Those people are deluded.

[-] -3 points by LoneRanger (-307) 1 year ago

If all the evidence pointed towards the earth being the center of the universe, then yes, I would go with that. However, once someone would show stronger evidence pointing to another solution I would not hesitate to change my mind. I'm open to evidence. I'm not stuck in a certain world view.

If you read my comments, I never talk about a certain world view. That's what conspiracy theorists do. I simply talk about demanding evidence to back up claims. This is a small but important request.

[-] -3 points by LoneRanger (-307) 1 year ago

Then it would not be public knowledge and you wouldn't know about it. End of story. You can't know the unknowable. Inventing delusional conspiracy theories based on logical fallacies won't solve that problem for you. Instead of not knowing, it will be worse. You will think you know when you'll in fact have created a fictitious world in which you make fantasies.

Truth is found with evidence, not empty assumptions.

[-] -1 points by elation (-32) from New York, NY 1 year ago

Ok far overboard with the hyperbole, what i was trying to say is that first, if you desire to seek truth then your preconcieved notions will have to go immediately in light of something that makes more sense in a proveable fashion.. And secondly.. the medium in which it was first presented to you should not deter your vetting of the topic.. it's ridiculous to claim that something on youtube is not credible simply by the fact that it is uploaded there

[-] -2 points by elation (-32) from New York, NY 1 year ago

you're buying into the meme if it's on yt it can't be true.. rubbish, is a news broadcast uploaded on yt less true because it's uploaded on yt? or anywhere else, just using that as an example.

[-] -3 points by LoneRanger (-307) 1 year ago

No, but something you find on YouTube is less credible than something you find in a peer reviewed journal or a magazine/newspaper with a good reputation. YouTube has some good stuff, but 90% is just crap. It's not a destination scholars choose for research. It's an entertainment venue, and, as such, it is littered with conspiracy theory mumbo jumbo.

[-] 0 points by elation (-32) from New York, NY 1 year ago

obviously you need to vet the information if you're interested in if it is accurate or not.

[-] -3 points by LoneRanger (-307) 1 year ago

Serious scholars, those who make discoveries using proper research methodology and the scientific method, publish their research in peer reviewed journals, not on YouTube. So no, it's not ridiculous to say that what you find on YouTube is not that credible. Some of it is, and if it is, it usually exists in peer reviewed journals as well. If you care about understanding the world, you don't do it watching YouTube. You go to your university's library and read peer reviewed journals.

[-] -3 points by LoneRanger (-307) 1 year ago

Credentials are not evidence. Just a logical fallacy - appeal to authority. I don't care about his credentials, I care about evidence if he has any to offer. I watched the video. I saw no evidence at all. Just conspiracy theory mumbo jumbo.

[Removed]

[-] 0 points by elation (-32) from New York, NY 1 year ago

recognizing those currently in governments are not performing in their role is not a right wing ploy. It's obvious, and does not mean that government won't exist. It just means that its expedient to expell those who do not serve the publics best interest and get those in who are willing to serve the people.

The whole notion of labelling with broad strokes conspiracy theorists in that faction is more akin to an appeal to a sense of security with regards to shattered paradigms and point towards cognitive dissonance.

The ones who are worthy of paying attention to are the ones that can be documented, which are far removed from those who are conjectures or fantasies of troubled minds. Those two should never be equated.

[-] -1 points by elation (-32) from New York, NY 1 year ago

That is not to say that there might be things that cannot yet be documented which the pursuit thereof yields documentation. But it is obviously necessary for things that have a rationale that has a chance of validation to distinguish and withhold conclusions untill that time. Essentially the distrust of government is very warranted considering what they have lied about and called people crazy for believing, which later comes out in declassified documents as valid.

[-] 0 points by elation (-32) from New York, NY 1 year ago

the distrust of government doesn't come from a disturbed personas personal dreamworld but from lies which are later proven as fact time and time again, which sets a quite distinguished presedence. Ergo it is not fetched out of thin air to explain events that were random, rather the random events often later come out to be planned and coordinated. Trust has to be earned, not given freely. Thus people have every right for a reasonable distrust proportionate to this presedence.

[-] -2 points by DarkLordOfTruth (-43) 1 year ago

There's no need for conspiracy theories to realize the government often does not perform their role correctly. There's real tangible evidence for corruption and manipulation, and serious journalists bring that to light with real evidence. This is important work on their part.

We should not trust the government blindly, but we should not distrust it blindly also. We must demand evidence for every accusation. Not doing so is simply falling in the trap of conspiracy theory mumbo jumbo and is very dangerous.

I never equated serious journalism which uncovers plots, conspiracies, corruption, etc.. using real evidence with conspiracy theory mumbo jumbo. Not sure where you got that idea.

Not believing in conspiracy theories does not mean not believing the government does a lot of bad stuff. It does. Every single day. It means not believing in fantasies which are based on logical fallacies instead of evidence.

[-] 0 points by elation (-32) from New York, NY 1 year ago

I understand that you wish nobody to be a crook and nobody to be a liar, who doesn't want that, unfortunately that is not the world we live in. And our contiuous denial of this gives the criminals free roam.. don't question sign is the policy.. and the loss of freedom is the peoples reward. Pretending like it is not happening won't benefit the people. Isn't that quite obvious by now?

[-] 0 points by elation (-32) from New York, NY 1 year ago

the problem that your OP statement presents is that you ask the people in essence to trust those who have lied again and again, claiming that questioning them distracts us from the real issues. Which is a logical fallacy in and of itself because the issues we face in the world today are born out of many of those questionable situations you allude to.

[-] 0 points by elation (-32) from New York, NY 1 year ago

yes i agree, but equating conspiracy theories with crazy people is a faux pass of epic proportions, when you look into history they are rampant and all over the place. And i might add that people have before been confined to mental institutions for false reasons which later came out it was true what they were saying. And the people do not benefit from labelling sane whistleblowers crazy.

[-] -2 points by DarkLordOfTruth (-43) 1 year ago

You fail to understand what conspiracy theorists are.

What they're saying doesn't matter as much as how they are coming up with their conclusions. It's the how that matters here, not the what. Even if conspiracy theorists were right about 911 or another conspiracy, they would still be all wrong in their way of demonstrating it. Their research is based on logical fallacies, not proper research methodology.

What we must encourage is proper research. Proper journalistic investigations which are based on evidence. Many conspiracies in the past have been discovered by such people. People who work hard at finding the truth. Who don't cut corners and choose proper research instead of conspiracy theory still logical fallacies.

It's possible that creationists are right and that evolutionists are wrong. A very slim possibility, but still possible. However, even if that were the case, creationists would still be wrong in their research methods as opposed to evolutionists who would be right. They would simply have got random luck.

We must encourage those who research properly namely serious journalist investigators, scientists, doctors, etc... We must discourage those who brandish about fantasies which are not backed up with evidence, but logical fallacies namely conspiracy theorists.

It does not matter if they luck out and they are sometimes right. What matters is their bad and evil method. In the long run, such methods always lose out to proper research and that's what matters.

Those who create conspiracy theories or those who espouse them are either

  1. Completely deluded, paranoid, or have another type of mental illness.
  2. Completely unknowledgeable about proper research methods.
  3. Extremely gullible and satisfied with ease instead of being demanding of evidence even if that requires a lot more effort.
[-] 1 points by elation (-32) from New York, NY 1 year ago

And as i said those who are worthy of following are those that a) have a modicorum of reasonable validity that can be achieved over time, or those that provide enough evidence to where you say ok.. this merits more than just a little investigation. As you proposed yourself evidence must drive the process which i do not dispute.

[-] 1 points by elation (-32) from New York, NY 1 year ago

you are clearly going through cognitive dissonance.. you equate conspiracy theories of 9/11 with creationism vs darwinism which are completely different subjects. Creationism vs darwinism are about hypthothesis vs scientific fact.. whereas building 7 is about it happened vs it never happened (ignorance) those kinds of things cannot be compared.. so steer clear of those associations and relationships in your comments unless you come out like a hooligan.

[+] -4 points by DarkLordOfTruth (-43) 1 year ago

911 Truthers function in the same way as creationists. They start with a conclusion, then use all kinds of logical fallacies to make it seem like they have evidence. It's the opposite of science where you start with observations, makes tests, then slowly move towards a conclusion. As an example, only a few hours after the Boston Marathon bombings conspiracy theorists already had cooked up conclusions. The then worked to try to make things fit their ideal in the next few days.

Also, conspiracy theorists follow in the same way that people follow creationism or other types of religious thought. They follow as if they were in a cult. They cannot be proven wrong. They hang on to the tiniest pieces of evidence in order to "prove" their conclusions, but dismiss the largest parts of evidence if it doesn't fit with their conclusions. Just like a creationist doesn't care about evidence, a conspiracy theorists doesn't care either.

Conspiracy theories are very close to religious type logic. That's why so many conspiracy theories come from right-wingers. Religion has taught them that logic, evidence, and proper research is not important. They learn this since their youth. They then translate this type of flawed thinking into conspiracy theories.

[-] -2 points by Sockpuppet33 (-4) 1 year ago

DLOT, isn't your premise that conspiracy theories are "mumbo jumbo" a logical fallacy? With so much evidence being withheld, each side is left with premises that cannot prove or disprove the truth.

[-] -2 points by DarkLordOfTruth (-43) 1 year ago

VQ, Whether evidence is being withheld or not for a particular case does not matter. The serious research will simply state that he can't know because evidence is potentially withheld. This is the correct course of action. There's nothing wrong with something that is unknowable. The conspiracy theorist will make the error of assuming evidence is being withheld even if he doesn't know for sure, then he will make the mistake of trying to come to a conclusion even though he knows he doesn't have sufficient evidence. The conspiracy theorist is not concerned about striving towards truth. He only cares about sharing his conclusion and will resort to logical fallacies in order to make it sound like it is supported by evidence. Conspiracy theorists are not honest. They lie to make it seem like they know when they don't.

What you fail to understand is that serious researches don't pretend their premises or assumptions are truth if they can't back them up with evidence. Usually, they don't even publish them. Conspiracy theorists on the other hand are happy to pretend their assumptions are truth even if they don't have supporting evidence, and they are very happy to publish their conclusions as if they were well established truths. The former is honest, the latter is not.

[-] 2 points by Builder (4202) 1 year ago

Do you work for NIST?

The report they assembled sounds like your explanation.

[-] -1 points by DarkLordOfTruth (-43) 1 year ago

They investigated and made a report which contains many pages of explanation of their findings. They certainly could be wrong, but it's people doing proper research that will find that out, not conspiracy theorists spitting out conspiracy theories. A totally independent report would have been better than NIST, but I find their findings as being the most simple explanation. Truth is, it doesn't matter all that much what happened. Like Chompsky says "Who cares?". We already know the government does all kinds of evil, why waste time and money with another investigation. 911 was the most investigated event in history.

[-] 0 points by Sockpuppet33 (-4) 1 year ago

Dismissing conspiracy theories as mumbo jumbo is a logical fallacy(hasty generalization).

Absence of Evidence, is not, Evidence of Absence

The practice of govts censoring information, leaves us with a knowledge-base that is incomplete.

[+] -4 points by LoneRanger (-307) 1 year ago

Hi VQ,

The problem is you don't understand the definition of the expression 'conspiracy theory". It's not a question of interpretation, so a hasty generalization does not apply. A conspiracy theory is by definition a flawed theory based on logical fallacies instead of proper evidence. The opposite would be investigative journalism. You can study government conspiracies using investigative journalism and that's fine. You might actually uncover something of worth. But, if you are doing it like conspiracy theorist do, then all you have is hogwash.

By definition, a conspiracy theory posits a conclusion before amassing facts and evidence. Then, it cherry picks facts, makes up other facts, uses logical fallacies, etc... to back up to predetermined conclusion. In a way, it is the opposite of a proper research method which looks at the facts and accumulates evidence to eventually come up with a conclusion.

Absence of Evidence, is not, Evidence of Absence

This is nonsense. You cannot prove that evidence does not exist. That's proving an unknowable, a negative. Science doesn't work that way. Either you have evidence or you don't. It really doesn't matter if you think there is hidden evidence out there that you don't have, if you don't have it then you have no evidence to back up your conclusion or idea. And, when you don't have evidence, then you have nothing but an anecdote.

he practice of govts censoring information, leaves us with a knowledge-base that is incomplete.

So what? That doesn't mean a conspiracy theory is correct because evidence is incomplete. It's the opposite. Without evidence you can't know if it's correct, so we must assume it is not. You need evidence to back up your claims, else you have nothing but a subjective assumption.

[-] 0 points by Sockpuppet33 (-4) 1 year ago

LR Quote: "The problem is you don't understand the definition of the expression 'conspiracy theory"."

Oxford dictiionary definition: "a belief that some covert but influential organization is responsible for a circumstance or event."

I think you are allowing yourself false license by creating personal, unaccedited definitions for the term "Conspiracy theory". In the interest of avoiding logical fallacies in debate, it would be proper to maintain the use of established definitions. These definitions should be derived from professional sources. Inventing one's personal nomenclature does not effect proper debate.

To avoid confusion in terms, it would be useful to update your post. Set a prescribed definition of a term to be followed by users.

i.e.: "For the purpose of this post, only the following definition of the term "Conspiracy Theory" shall be used". (This is especially useful when using a definition that cannot otherwise be sourced from professional publications. Such as "Conspiracy Theories: are mumbo jumbo based on logical fallacies.")

[-] -2 points by LoneRanger (-307) 1 year ago

Hi VQ,

Oxford dictiionary definition: "a belief that some covert but influential organization is responsible for a circumstance or event."

Notice how it says "a belief". That's because conspiracy theories are not based on evidence, like a scientific theory would be, or how investigative journalism would. It's like creationism, based on a belief.

Read the usage section on Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspiracy_theory

These definitions should be derived from professional sources. Inventing one's personal nomenclature does not effect proper debate.

If you read the Wikipedia entry and its sources, you'll get the names of many scholars who share my definition. People like Noam Chomsky. These scholars are the best sources. Again, the Oxford definition you put up defines it as a believe, not as knowledge acquired through a proper research method. In science and serious journalism, a theory is not based on a belief.

Some excerpts for those too lazy too read:

"The term "conspiracy theory" is used to indicate a narrative genre that includes a broad selection of (not necessarily related) arguments for the existence of grand conspiracies.[1] Less illustrious uses refer to folklore and urban legend and a variety of explanatory narratives which are constructed with methodological flaws or biases.[2] Originally a neutral term, since the mid-1960s it has acquired a somewhat derogatory meaning, implying a paranoid tendency to see the influence of some malign covert agency in events.[3] The term is sometimes used to automatically dismiss claims that are deemed ridiculous, misconceived, paranoid, unfounded, outlandish or irrational.[4][page needed] A proven conspiracy theory, such as the notion that United States President Richard Nixon and his aides were behind the Watergate break-in and cover-up, is usually referred to as something else, such as investigative journalism or historical analysis.[5][6]"

Here's what the political scientist Michael Barkun states:

"The political scientist Michael Barkun discussing the usage of this term in contemporary American culture holds that a conspiracy theory is a belief which explains an event as the result of a secret plot by exceptionally powerful and cunning conspirators to achieve a malevolent end.[7][8] According to Barkun, the appeal of conspiracism is threefold: First, conspiracy theories claim to explain what institutional analysis cannot. They appear to make sense out of a world that is otherwise confusing. Second, they do so in an appealingly simple way, by dividing the world sharply between the forces of light, and the forces of darkness. They trace all evil back to a single source, the conspirators and their agents. Third, conspiracy theories are often presented as special, secret knowledge unknown or unappreciated by others. For conspiracy theorists, the masses are a brainwashed herd, while the conspiracy theorists in the know can congratulate themselves on penetrating the plotters' deceptions.[8]"

Noam Chomsky

"Noam Chomsky, linguist and scholar, contrasts conspiracy theory as more or less the opposite of institutional analysis, which focuses mostly on the public, long-term behaviour of publicly known institutions, as recorded in, for example, scholarly documents or mainstream media reports, rather than secretive coalitions of individuals.[15]"

The idea that history itself is controlled by large long-standing conspiracies is rejected by historian Bruce Cumings:

""But if conspiracies exist, they rarely move history; they make a difference at the margins from time to time, but with the unforeseen consequences of a logic outside the control of their authors: and this is what is wrong with 'conspiracy theory.' History is moved by the broad forces and large structures of human collectivities.""


And so on and so on. Just read the Wikipedia article. It has many references so you can further up on your research.

[-] 0 points by ZenDog (13204) from South Burlington, VT 1 year ago

In the most general of terms you are correct. Conspiracy theories generally tend to promote right wing policy and ideology via distraction and discredit.

As such, they are themselves in many cases, the result of conspiracy.

If we are to truly understand what is happening in this country, we must come to grips with that one simple fact. The most outlandish theories of conspiracy are designed specifically to mislead, and to divide, the public.

We must also understand: Oswald has been judged guilty by the press, even though he never stood trial.

The elder Tsarneav reportedly posted material online relating to Chechen terrorists with ties to al Qaeda - and this, somehow, was missed by the NSA, despite the Billions they have spent on ThinThread, Trapwire, and the rest. The FBI reportedly has their own version called Carnivore - and it too, apparently missed.

We must accept the possibility that this evidence was not simply overlooked, but deliberately so, for purposes not yet apparent. Surely the Texas explosion, coming so close on the heels of the Boston Marathon bombing, and so clearly ECHOING the events of September, 2001, when the Twin Towers fell and a similar explosion took place at a factory in France, are so STATISTICALLY SIGNIFICANT as to render the probability of coincidence as almost nonexistent.

In conducting such examination it is important to keep in mind one salient fact: and that is that every single bureaucracy in America is staffed by Americans.

What does this mean?

It means that for the majority, all we need do is clap our hands, and insist:

  • AWAKEN
[-] -1 points by DarkLordOfTruth (-43) 1 year ago

It means we have to look for more than coincidence, we must look for evidence or else we have nothing at all.

[-] -1 points by Tonto (-2) 1 year ago

DarkLordOfTruth, what have you done with the LoneRanger?

[-] -2 points by DarkLordOfTruth (-43) 1 year ago

I still have him around. Just made a new character so I didn't have to wait 3 hours before posting.

[-] 2 points by GirlFriday (17435) 1 year ago

I mean and how cool is that? You fucking little cockroach.

[-] -1 points by DarkLordOfTruth (-43) 1 year ago

I don't know if it's cool, but it's practical.

[-] 2 points by GirlFriday (17435) 1 year ago

Where you pat yourself on the back for being a multiple ID troll? Really? Don't you need to work on your sites?

[-] -3 points by DarkLordOfTruth (-43) 1 year ago

I never cared about the IDs a person here uses. He could have thousands. It does not matter. What matters are ideas and how they are supported with evidence.

Are you like most people here who support conspiracy theories which push right-wing political agendas? Most of them started by Alex Jones? You don't find it ironic that the people on this site claim to be left wingers, but then support these conspiracy theories?

I guess you care more about the ID of a user than his ideas. As most conspiracy theorists, you enjoy logical fallacies. Appeal to motive, or appeal to authority, or ad hominem. You should concentrate on ideas instead.

[-] 2 points by GirlFriday (17435) 1 year ago

Bullshit.l I find your attempts to justify multiple IDs revolting. It makes you an untrustworthy shmuck. You are a right wing troll that tries to play as a left wing persona.

[-] -2 points by DarkLordOfTruth (-43) 1 year ago

More ad hominem. No evidence, or ideas of worth. Just like Alex Jones.

[-] 2 points by GirlFriday (17435) 1 year ago

Nice try ass hole.

[-] -2 points by Sockpuppet33 (-4) 1 year ago

Yeah, multiple IDs are revolting.

[-] 0 points by justiceforzim (-17) 1 year ago

Geez, what a bunch of crap. Calling up the leftwing bogeymen...creationism and anti homosexuality. Means I will NEVER entertain alternative news with an open mind again, Thanx so much for the wake up call. Can't wait for that FREE HEALTHCARE (taxpayer funded, as you say above). Another leftwing fantasy...if it comes from .gov it means it's free.

[-] -1 points by LoneRanger (-307) 1 year ago

Conspiracy theories are not alternative news. Their trash for your mind. Lies, fantasies, delusions. News is based on real life.

[-] 0 points by justiceforzim (-17) 1 year ago

News may be based on real life, but it is reported by the state controlled presstitutes.

[-] -1 points by LoneRanger (-307) 1 year ago

Not all news is controlled by the state. And, you can get news from outside US. We live in a big world. You just have to learn to choose your news sources wisely.

[-] -3 points by justiceforzim (-17) 1 year ago

Sorry, this made me think of this thread...the IRS picking on Conservative Groups Conspiracy Theory.....

The IRS confirmation that it misbehaved came from Lois Lerner, chief of the unit that oversees tax-exempt organizations. She confirmed the claim of people dismissed as “conspiracy nuts” that groups that include the words “tea party” or “patriot” in their applications were put in a political bull’s-eye.

[-] 2 points by OccNoVi (415) 1 year ago

Gee, groups with political names get treated as political organizations ???

That's a conspiracy?

[-] -2 points by justiceforzim (-17) 1 year ago

CONSERVATIVE groups with political names. You don't think OFA, Moveon and Acorn aren';t political? They are also 504c's

[-] -1 points by DarkLordOfTruth (-43) 1 year ago

If this was confirmed by Louis Lerner with evidence, then thumbs up. That's what we need. Proper research, not conspiracy theory mumbo jumbo.

[+] -4 points by davidhums (9) from New York, NY 7 months ago

Exactly! Conspiracy theorists are not only dangerous, they are really boring and complete and utter delusional morons. The biggest morons in the world.