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Forum Post: "Climate Change Is Happening Now – A Carbon Price Must Follow", by James Hansen.

Posted 1 year ago on Dec. 2, 2012, 9:50 p.m. EST by shadz66 (19985)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

"Climate Change Is Happening Now – A Carbon Price Must Follow",

'The extreme weather events of 2012 are what we have been warning of for 25 years, but the answer is plain to see'.

by James Hansen.

Will our short attention span be the end of us? Just a month after the second "storm of a century" in two years, the media moves on to the latest scandal with barely a retrospective glance at the implications of the extreme climate anomalies we have seen.

Hurricane Sandy was not just a storm. It was a stark illustration of the power that climate change can deliver – today – to our doorsteps.

Ask the homeowners along the New Jersey and New York shores still homeless. Ask the local governments struggling weeks later to turn on power to their cold, darkened towns and cities. Ask the entire north-east coast, reeling from a catastrophe whose cost is estimated at $50bn and rising. (I am not brave enough to ask those who've lost husbands or wives, children or grandparents).

I bring up these facts sadly, as one who has urged us to heed the scientific evidence on climate change for the past 25 years. The science is clear: climate change is here, now.

Superstorm Sandy is not the first storm, and certainly won't be the last. Still, it is hard for us as individual human beings to connect the dots. That's where observation, data and scientific analysis help us see.

No credible scientist disputes that we have warmed our climate by almost 1.5C over land areas in the past century, most of that in the past 30 years.

As my colleagues and I demonstrated in a peer-reviewed study published this summer, climate extremes are already occurring much more frequently in the world we have warmed through our reliance on fossil fuels.

Our analysis showed that extreme summer heat anomalies used to be infrequent: covering only 0.1-0.2% of the globe in any given summer during the base period of our study, from 1951 to 1980. During the past decade, as the average global temperature rose, such extremes have covered 10% of the land.

Extreme temperatures deliver more than heat.

The water cycle is especially sensitive to rising temperatures. Increased heat speeds up evaporation, causing more extreme droughts, like the $5bn (and counting) drought in Texas and Oklahoma. It is linked to an expanding wildfire season and an increase by several fold in the frequency of large fires in the American west.

The heat also leads to more extreme sea surface temperatures – a key culprit behind Sandy's devastating force. The latent heat in atmospheric water vapour is the fuel that powers tornadoes, thunderstorms, and hurricanes. Stepping up evaporation with warmer temperatures is like stepping on the gas: More energy-rich vapour condenses into water drops, releasing more latent heat as it does so, causing more powerful storms, increased rainfall and more extreme flooding. This is not a matter of belief. This is high-school science class.

The chances of getting a late October hurricane in New York without the help of global warming are extremely small. In that sense, you can blame Sandy on global warming. Sandy was the strongest recorded storm, measured by barometric pressure, to make landfall north of Cape Hatteras, eclipsing the hurricane of 1938.

But this fixation on determining the blame for a particular storm, or disputing the causal link between climate change and this or that storm, is misguided.

A better path forward means listening to the growing chorus – Sandy, extreme droughts and wildfires, intense rainstorms, record-breaking melting of Arctic sea ice – and taking action. Think of it like taking out an insurance policy for the planet.

We can fix this. The answer is a price on carbon. We must make the price of fossil fuels honest, reflecting their cost to society including the economic devastation wrought by storms like Sandy, the toll on farmland and ecosystems, as well as priceless human lives.

Whether that price takes the shape of a carbon tax, as some in Washington are now willing to discuss, or a carbon fee, as I have advocated, a price on carbon lets the market find the most effective ways to phase out our reliance on fossil fuels. It also moves us to a sustainable energy future where energy choices are made by individuals and communities, not by Washington mandates and lobbyists.

A carbon fee, collected from fossil fuel companies, will increase consumer costs. So the money that is collected should be distributed to the public. As people try to minimise their energy costs to keep money for other things, their actions will stimulate the economy, drive innovations and transition us away from fossil fuels.

If we make our demand for action clear enough, I am optimistic that our leaders in Washington can look beyond the short-term challenges of today to see the looming, long-term threats ahead, and the answer that is right in front of them. We can't simply allow the next news cycle to distract us from the real task ahead.

Back in the 1980s, I introduced the concept of "climate dice" to make clear the difference between natural variability and climate-change driven extremes. As I predicted, the climate dice in the 21st century are now "loaded". It's not just bad luck Sandy pummelled America's coasts, extreme drought devastated its midlands and wildfires scorched its mountains.

We loaded the dice. We changed our climate.

~

respice, adspice, prospice ...

~

James E Hansen directs the NASA Goddard Institute for Space Studies. { http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Hansen }

[Article copied verbatim under 'Fair Use' from : http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2012/nov/29/climate-change-carbon-price - so please use this to access all corroborating embedded links]

528 Comments

528 Comments


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[-] 7 points by geo (2638) from Concord, NC 1 year ago

AGW is real, a carbon tax is not the answer.

A carbon tax will restrict energy usage for those that need it the most the poor, and won't restrict usage by the wealthy. The cost to industry will be passed along in higher prices on all goods to the rest of us.

We need to push alternative energy. Break the central distribution schemes of the utilities.

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

I take your point but please also see :

"As negotiators try to replace the ageing Kyoto protocol, failed negotiations could result in more emissions." We are developing new oil fields whilst being fully aware of the real repercussions & Emperor Nero and his fiddle come to mind !!!

e tenebris ...

[-] 4 points by geo (2638) from Concord, NC 1 year ago

I get that... but prudent action is better than action that will punish the wrong people and not bring about the desired results... and we will still be on fossil fuels.

Next will come Carbon Trading and Wall Street will get filthy rich while We again still have fossil fuel usage, and be the ones penalized with no alternative in place.

[Removed]

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

The Precautionary Principle is in order, so we agree but an entire reappraisal of the way we understand : money ; cost ; gain ; profit ; benefit ; loss and 'Capitalism's Externalities' - also has to occur if we are to find holistic solutions, going forward.

pax et lux ; nunc et semper ...

[-] 1 points by geo (2638) from Concord, NC 1 year ago

I agree.

PS. I sent you a message.

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

I got it and replied. Thanx for the great info :-)

pax ...

[-] -1 points by redandbluestripedpill (333) 1 year ago

Agreed. Society needs psychological restructuring and control over media as well as government by the people is an a solute need in effecting this.

However, corporatism has a hold of both gov and media. Which is why ART5 is absolutely needed. In the current ows forum, cognitive infiltration is so complete, people cannot discuss solution, only the sensation of the problem dynamics increasing.

[-] -1 points by repubsRtheprob (1209) 1 year ago

Wheres repubs at these demonstrations?

http://wtvr.com/2013/02/14/rfk-jr-arrested/

[-] 5 points by SingleVoice (158) 1 year ago

I think the focus of climate change is on the wrong cause. The earth's climate will always change by natural cycles, however, it is the deforestation of the rain forests that have caused an imbalance. Vegetation thrives on carbon dioxide and gives off oxygen as it's by-product. Instead of drumming up a carbon tax hoax by hypocrits that will fall on consumers and will do nothing to stop any real causes of imbalance, we should be making noise to do more to stop the deforestation of the rain forests which are the most important element of our eco-system. Some places in Brazil have had success with using the rain forest for good use rather than burning it down for grazing and farmland as they had been doing for a very long time. There are rain forests all over the globe that have been in the process of destruction for many decades. It is only recently that people are being made aware of it and trying to reverse it. This is where focus needs to be. Carbon dioxide is not poison. It is one of the essential components to plant life. The plant life in turn provides us with oxygen to breathe.

We can also work to plant trees wherever possible elsewhere on the globe. In North America we've lost so many trees for decades to suburban sprawl and industrial and commercial complexes. We've gotten better at replacing trees taken down in recent years but there is never enough plant regrowth to compensate for what damage was already done.

Why is no one thinking logically instead of listening to politicians come up with yet another scam to hold power over us, tax us and take more of our liberty. A carbon tax?...give me a break. Meanwhile these bureaucrats screaming for this like Al Gore are flying around in their private jets and living in their huge power sucking mansions doing more so-called damage while asking the rest of us to pay for their hypocrisy. They figure they'll just charge people money and never fix what the real problem is. Maybe get a Nobel prize in the process. Get smart and work with people that are really doing something. And if nothing else, plant a tree.

[-] 0 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

There is alas, a rather overwhelming international scientific agreement in the actuality of rising temperatures. Even if the US Govt. wishes not to accept or acknowledge the science of major US scientific institutions, such as The Woods Hole Oceanographic Institute ( http://www.whoi.edu/ ) or The Scripps Institute of Oceanography ( http://sio.ucsd.edu/ ) etc., internationally the scientists have known for well over a decade that 'something' is afoot.

'Mother Nature' has locked away VAST amounts of Ancient Carbon in the form of peat, coal, oil and gas. We know that there is a Carbon Cycle just as there is a Water Cycle, but that the time scale of the Carbon Cycle (which includes Geological processes) is much, much longer than in the case of water (simplified here to : evaporation, condensation, precipitation & run off).

Therefore, how can we as a sentient species, consider that we can bypass the Carbon Cycle and extract huge amounts of carbon based fuels, burn them and almost instantly (in geological time) return this carbon to the atmosphere Without There Being Any Repercussions ?! What is our individual and collective intuition on this matter ?!! That Carbon Dioxide even tho' it is essential to life via photo-synthesis, is also a 'Greenhouse Gas' is undeniable. The Greenhouse Effect is well understood and without it life on this planet would not exist. We owe our previously relatively stable climate to this and the level of CO2 has been pretty stable at ~ 300ppm (0.03%) for a very, very long time (verifiable from ice and lake sediment cores). However, that proportion has risen in the last 40 years to ~390ppm (0.039%) which is a 30% increase in CO2 levels.

Further, both water vapour and methane are also greenhouse gases and the level of both will also rise with rising global temperatures. This is termed 'positive feedback'. A Human Influenced and possible 'run away' Greenhouse Effect is empirically, scientifically and mathematically possible, so the question is do we accept or 'believe' that it is happening ?

The atmosphere is but a film above us like cling-film on a water melon. It's easy to assume that we can have no effect on the vastness of the atmosphere but this is not true. As the atmosphere warms, the dynamic and apparently chaotic but actually relatively ordered 'Climate System', has 'more energy' and will operate at a higher energetic level and with a higher 'water carrying' capacity. Thus, 'The Climate' will be seemingly more chaotic to our perception. We are already witnessing weather records being taken to new levels throughout the world and this matter is not really up for debate - unless there is an evil, truly vast international conspiracy of scientists at many levels !

Globally, as a species we can feel and detect that 'something is changing', that something is different now to how things were but we may choose to behave like the proverbial 'frog slowly boiling in a pan of water on a stove' &/or as a 'rabbit caught in a bright light' !!

Sadly, I don't really think that we will stop either our behaviour or its results in the short or even medium terms. It's now a question of adaptation, however consider this : That "The International 'Darksider-Sith' Ruling Elites" [translation : 'Parasites' !] actually do NOT mind countless hundreds of millions of the rest of us perishing if it means more for them and Less Of Us !!!

The above is compounded by 'Militant Pro-Industrialism' as well as by Religious Nutters - who IF they do have belief in 'Biblical End Times' (ie some Jews, Christians and Muslims !!!) do not think human action can possibly affect The Earth's Climate as only 'God' could do that AND when compounded by the ignorant, those in denial and those who know but just don't give a shit ... well, we have quite a recipe for forthcoming perturbations, to say the least !!

.

Thanx for your comment 'SingleVoice' and here's hoping that together, with a shift up in consciousness - we can be, a 'SV' ~*~

dum spiro, speo ...

[-] 2 points by SingleVoice (158) 1 year ago

The "something that is changing" is the balance between animal and plant life on this planet. The repercussion of carbon returned to the air is to be used by the vegetation on the planet. The destruction of the rain forests over the past many decades is why we have an overabundance of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere. The rain forests have always been the key element of earth's balance in every regard. The destruction is what has caused all of the imbalance we have been seeing.

The behavior that needs to change is to stop removing the earth's natural carbon dioxide combatant...trees. Methane and carbon dioxide are natural by-products of living organisms. The removal and destruction of the natural filter for those things is vegetation which need carbon dioxide to survive. Vegetation needs carbon dioxide and vegetation's by-product is the oxygen we need to survive. It's so simple yet gov'ts around the world try to make it appear as though carbon dioxide is a poison not a source of life for plants. The rain forests were the balance to it all but now that they have been and are still being destroyed is why we're seeing increased imbalance in the atmosphere. What could be more simple than promoting more planting of trees wherever possible and to put more effort into helping countries trying to stop deforestation of the rain forests where they exist. This is the main cause of climate change.

Even people that believe that human action can't affect the earth's climate can maybe agree with this because it's logical and makes sense and you can argue with them that God put the trees here for this purpose and that man is removing them at an alarming rate for man's purpose and is therefore causing the imbalance.

Focus should be on saving the rain forests and planting many more trees than are removed everywhere, everyday on the planet not on using gov't power to scam people out of money for "carbon credits". What does that do? Absolutely nothing but line the pockets of regulators and gov'ts and give them more control over our lives. These same people calling for carbon taxes are hypocrites and keep perpetuating lies to gain power and control over people while they themselves don't live what they preach.

Most important, by replacing what's been removed in the way of trees, we can overcome the effects. It's not hopeless and can be attained in a relatively short period of time as long as more people on the earth realize that this IS the solution. We need to make this the fight not the bullshit we're being fed by global gov'ts including our own.

[-] 4 points by bullfrogma (448) 1 year ago

I've heard that bamboo produces a lot of oxygen and grows very fast. It's also pretty useful for many things. I always thought if things got so bad that bamboo could be a sort of fast acting relief.

[-] 4 points by SingleVoice (158) 1 year ago

Thanks for the good info. No need to wait. Keep planting now.

I have bamboo growing all over my backyard. The one thing about bamboo, it keeps reproducing very fast throughout the whole growing season. It spreads like a weed but produces a beautiful tall screen. Every plant will grow and produce oxygen which will use carbon dioxide and help to re-balance the atmosphere. The more we plant, the more we help. Also, any one that can help the groups working against the deforestation of the rain forests whether financially or with their time will also make a difference.

[-] 2 points by geo (2638) from Concord, NC 1 year ago

'The destruction of the rain forests over the past many decades is why we have an overabundance of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere. The rain forests have always been the key element of earth's balance in every regard. The destruction is what has caused all of the imbalance we have been seeing.'

Industrialization, change of land usage, filling in of wet lands, paving, agribus farming, massive population increase.... are why we have an imbalance. While the rain forests are an important sink for CO2 and should be preserved, the oceans are a far greater sink for fixing CO2.

While I admire your passion, lets not be myopic.

[-] 2 points by imagine40 (383) 1 year ago

Germany CO2 emissions up only 1.6%. Ifthey can do itwe can do it.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/02/25/germany-carbon-idUSL6N0BP87J20130225?feedType=RSS&feedName=rbssEnergyNews&rpc=43

We need "manhattan project" like effort to manufacture millions of wind turbines and upgrades to electric infrastructure.

[-] 4 points by beautifulworld (20523) 7 months ago

"Earth's New Normal: Wild Weather 2014," Dr. Reese Halter, Conservation Biologist

"As humans ramp-up the destruction of nature in Australia, Canada, Indonesia and elsewhere to feed the insatiable coal and petroleum markets in China, India and the U.S. the amount of melting ice at both poles continues to erode at an astounding rate."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dr-reese-halter/earths-new-normal-wild-we_b_4543416.html?utm_hp_ref=green

There are some serious and disturbing graphics in this piece. Thanks for all your work on the environment, Shadz. The poor way you are treated by certain people (if you can call them that) on this forum is not unnoticed. Peace to you and yours and keep up the good work. Never give up.

[-] 2 points by shadz66 (19985) 7 months ago

''Washington and the Oil Industry Know the Truth about Climate Change'', by Dave Lindorff :

''Climate skeptics in Congress, and oil and coal industry lobbyists like the American Petroleum Institute (API) and the American Coal Council (ACC) may be preventing any significant action in the US on reducing this country’s emissions of carbon into the atmosphere, but at the Pentagon, and in the executive suites of the oil industry giants, there is no doubt about the reality of climate change.

''As Admiral Robert J. Papp of the US Coast Guard wrote in 2012 in the magazine of the US Naval Institute :

  • “The world may seem to be growing smaller, but its seas are growing bigger—particularly in the great North, where a widening water-highway beckons both with resources and challenges.”

Admiral Papp didn’t futz around. Without any caveats or bows to corrupted scientists on the payroll of the Koch Brothers, he wrote :

  • “The Arctic Ocean, in the northern region of the Arctic Circle, is changing from a solid expanse of inaccessible ice fields into a growing navigable sea, attracting increased human activity and unlocking access to vast economic potential and energy resources. In the 35 years since I first saw Kotzebue, Alaska, on the Chukchi Sea as a junior officer, the sea ice has receded from the coast so much that when I returned last year the coastal area was ice-free. The shipping, oil-and-gas, and tourism industries continue to expand with the promise of opportunity and fortune in previously inaccessible areas. Experts estimate that in another 25 years the Arctic Ocean could be ice-free during the summer months.”

Thanx for your strong 'huffpo' links above & below. I'm not 'giving up' anytime soon bw and so peace and solidarity to you and yours.

pax, amor et lux ...

[-] 4 points by beautifulworld (20523) 7 months ago

"The reality, as Pentagon and the oil industry know, is that climate change is progressing with frightening rapidity. Already, sea levels along the Atlantic seaboard have risen 8-10” since the 1930s, forcing places like Miami Beach to engage in costly major projects to stave off their inevitable future as new Atlantises. According to one expert at the University of Florida, Prof. Harold Wanless, increasingly rapid ice melting on Greenland’s 2-mile-thick ice sheet, and evidence that the much larger West Antarctic ice sheet is beginning to melt, could mean a devastating 15-foot global sea rise by as early as 2100, instead of the 3-6 foot predictions that are more commonly cited (bad as those would be)." From Lindorff.

Let us not forget how completely linked up the economy is with the environment. What happens in the economy happens to the environment. A healthy economic system working for the benefit of the masses of people would work for the environment as well, as the interests of the 99% are the interests of Mother Earth.

Thanks, Shadz, for all you've done here for over two years. Your dedication to the 99% does not go unnoticed. You are a true occupier in every sense of the word. Occupy Wall Street! Never give up!

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 6 months ago

Greenland’

ah ha, perhaps the land mass ice pack that is melting and cooling the east coast

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19985) 6 months ago

Thanx & on a connected tangent, please consider :

All things are connected, this we know. Thanx for your excerpt, comment, solidarity and kind words and in compliment .. also read, ruminate and reflect upon :

ad iudicium ...

[-] 4 points by beautifulworld (20523) 6 months ago

"Most ordinary people gravely underestimate our own potential to play a role in changing the world. We should follow Sawant’s shining example and commit ourselves to this cause for which there is no greater reward. Nothing in life is more meaningful than fighting alongside other working-class people to end inequality, oppression, and environmental devastation." Amen to that.

[-] 2 points by shadz66 (19985) 6 months ago

''No one ever said the battle for the rights of the 99% was gonna be easy. We live in corporate tyranny. It's a new type of tyranny, 21st-century style. How do the American people sit by and snooze while this is going on? Are they really that brainwashed ?'' from :

per ardua ad astra ...

[-] 3 points by beautifulworld (20523) 5 months ago

It is true that most Americans are waking up to the failures of the political system, but what is also true is that most Americans have a very poor understanding of economics. If they understood economics, even in a basic way, they'd understand that it is economics, and a failing economic system at that, that is underpinning our failed political system. The two work closely together. This is the message that really needs to get out to the people.

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19985) 5 months ago

''How do we build the unified movement we need of all who suffer under our present system? What is the role of labor (some of which is on board, others not), of co-ops, of local sustainable economies, in the transition to a sustainable economy? And how do we unify all the many environmental struggles...?'' from this article which echoes your insightful comment :

dum spiro, spero ...

[-] 1 points by beautifulworld (20523) 5 months ago

"Just as “your” government and “your” prostitute media lie to you about Ukraine, Putin, Saddam Hussein, Gaddafi, Iran, Pakistan, Yemen, Palestine, NSA, spying, torture, 9/11, Obamacare, and literally everything under the sun, “your” government lies to you about the economy and hides from you the perilous state of your economic existence. If you are not among the One Percent, you have no future in America."

I wish I didn't agree with Roberts' quote above, but hey, the truth is the truth.

Here's one young guy's story, "My New American Dream: To Afford Medical Costs After the Student Loan Bill Is Paid":

He says, "This is the new American Dream. To be able to buy food after the other bills have been paid is now what we aspire to."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/tim-stobierski/new-american-mythos_b_4937236.html

Pathetic, in the wealthiest country on earth....

Yep, "Cash Abroad Rises $206 Billion as Apple to IBM Avoid Tax" and run away from using the profit earned on the backs of American people, for the American people, I might add. Thanks so much. Please stick your computers and phones up your asses, is my answer.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-03-12/cash-abroad-rises-206-billion-as-apple-to-ibm-avoid-tax.html

[-] 3 points by shadz66 (19985) 5 months ago

''My New American Dream : To Afford Medical Costs After the Student Loan Bill Is Paid'' - was how your hard hitting HuffPo link was entitled. Your second bloomberg.com was too infuriating for words but thanx bw for these very revealing links and in reply and in compliment, I excerpt and append for later consideration :

''The social contract and the institutions that give it meaning have been transformed into entitlements administered and colonized largely by the corporate interests and the financial elite. Policy is no longer being written by politicians accountable to the American public. Instead, policies concerning the defense budget, deregulation, health care, public transportation, job training programs, and a host of other crucial areas are now largely written by lobbyists who represent mega corporations. How else to explain the weak deregulation policies following the economic crisis of 2007 or the lack of a public option in Obama’s health care policies? Or, for that matter, the more serious retreat from any viable notion of the political imagination that “requires long-term organizing—e.g., single-payer health care, universally free public higher education and public transportation, federal guarantees of housing and income security? The liberal center has moved to the right on these issues while the left has become largely absent and ineffective.

"The left is too fractured around single political issues and needs to develop alliances in which broad based organizations can be developed with long term strategies and goals. This will not happen quickly but the foundations can be laid for new modes of organizing in which the totality of society is addressed and diverse struggles can be aligned in ways that expand their reach and political power outside of the specificity of differences that drive them. Democracy is on life support in the United States and working within the system to change it is a dead end, except for gaining short term reforms.'' .. from this wide ranging article :

When we're scraping the bottom of the barrel thinking nothing could get worse, remember ...

dum spiro, spero ...

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 5 months ago

another doctor married to jobs

[-] -1 points by shadz66 (19985) 5 months ago
[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 5 months ago

climate changed arrived just in time to put off social change

[-] -1 points by shadz66 (19985) 5 months ago

Watch the PBS doc. Matt & it's worse than just ''put off social change'' ... it could well tie into Military Industrial Complex 'thinking' too. Thus - & especially with your 'No War' thread also in mind, consider :

Waaaay past my bedtime here, so .. adios y buenas noches amigo.

paz y luz ...

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 6 months ago

the job market tells me my potential couldn't pass an interview

[-] 0 points by shadz66 (19985) 6 months ago

What possible bearing does that have here ?!!! Or is it yet another fractious contretemps that u were looking to provoke ?!! L0L ! More on topic, consider :

''The debate is over. Climate change is real, and it’s probably worse than we thought. It’s time for the mainstream media to tell it like it is and stop treating wacko theories like the truth. After all, the future of all life on Earth is at stake.''

ad iudicium ...

[-] 2 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 6 months ago

I'd still put life's ability to survive ahead of human survival on a long term bet

but I believe both are possible

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19985) 6 months ago

It is only human conceit and hubris which thinks that we are so very important and indispensable to this blue green marble, third planet out from an average star on the arse end of one of the spiral arms of an average sized galaxy !!! I really do agree with you though ; life will always find a way - this side of our Sun becoming a Red Giant !! More to the point right now, wtf is going on with your karma points ?! I mean if yours are frozen and you don't get an automatic '+1' too ... then how is that fair ? Also fyi :

pax ...

[-] 2 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 6 months ago
[-] -1 points by shadz66 (19985) 6 months ago

Nice tune, thanx & I admire your equanimity in the face of injustice, Also fyi :

pax, amor et lux ...

[-] 3 points by beautifulworld (20523) 8 months ago

"If You've Ever Wanted To Go To Mars, Head To Canada, Apparently"

"Winnipeg was colder than the freezing, inhospitable planet Mars on December 31."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/01/02/canada-frigid-temperatures_n_4531041.html?utm_hp_ref=green

Weird stuff. Perhaps we better start paying attention.

[Deleted]

[-] 0 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

Fleas, bees, ants and wasps - together we are stronger & here's the nature of the 'elephant in the room':

nil desperandum ...

EDIT : CORRECTED LINK (wef 13/5/13) : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A5GVHqlnPAc .

[Deleted]

[Deleted]

[-] 4 points by Renneye (3749) 1 year ago

You Rock!!!

[-] 2 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

Well 'flea', I'm an ant but I think that IF we can hook up with the bees and wasps and enough of us can get our sh*t together - together - at the same time, then we can bite 'the elephant' in strategic places and drive it off. Together We Are Stronger and thanx for your very interesting replies. I'd encourage any of your words re. mulching, composting etc. and I express my gratitude and solidarity to you, with :

pax et lux ...

[-] 5 points by analystwanabe99 (153) 1 year ago

Thanks for the bookmarks, looks like some interesting stuff, cant wait to look at all of them.

[-] 3 points by analystwanabe99 (153) 1 year ago

It just struck me that I might be an ant also. . . . After all I am doing several things to improve our environment and help others to do the same. . . I will post on composting in the very near future.

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

Hiya fellow ant and I really think that you will be particularly interested in the first section of the following link : http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article34244.htm and I again recommend the links above, especially http://permaculture.tv/ to you for future reference.

pax ...

[-] 4 points by analystwanabe99 (153) 1 year ago

Yea, I know the argument about junk costing less than good foods but what most folks don't know is that when the body gets good foods with actual nutrition in it not as much is required. If you were able to look up what your body required for vitamins, minerals, and protein and enzymes every day and cost that out in fresh foods I think you would be surprised just how inexpensive it would be. Just for instance if you offered the kid a kiwi and 2 oz of mixed nuts and water instead of a 12 oz can of pop, candy bar, which one do you think costs more? Now which one would stay with the kid longer and provide more nutrition?

[-] 3 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

You end with good rhetorical questions and your knowledge, expertise and information are very welcome here on these threads.Solidarity to you & I append the following article for your interest and information :

Paul Craig Roberts was Assistant Secretary of the Treasury for Economic Policy and associate editor of the Wall Street Journal. He was columnist for Business Week, Scripps Howard News Service, and 'The Creators Syndicate'. He has had many university appointments. His internet columns have attracted a worldwide following [ http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/ ].

e tenebris, lux ...

[-] 0 points by Kavatz (464) from Edmonton, AB 1 year ago

Hey, you could start a Subsidiary for this too!

[-] 1 points by analystwanabe99 (153) 1 year ago

You mean the composting?

[-] 0 points by Kavatz (464) from Edmonton, AB 1 year ago

Ya, the volunteer work, visiting schools, etc. Makes you kind of a subject matter expert.

[-] 4 points by analystwanabe99 (153) 1 year ago

Maybe I should give you a little background. My most important driver is health. From that I have pursued the study of food, exercise, and gardening. As an offshoot of gardening because of organic foods I looked into natural bug control and fertilizing and that led me to worms, and composting. That is the chain of subject matter that I have pursued in an effort to maintain my health after retirement. In the process of learning all this stuff I do a lot of researching to prove or disprove certain things I have read. Believe it or not many of the things we read are theories or just plan speculations or embellishments to sell a product. Imagine that!! I have always believed we should learn throughout life. Continuous learning has been my life process. I have a library and now a digital library on different subjects. My wife and I have been married since 1966. I take no medications and have no diseases or limitations. I still climb trees and deer hunt with a bow, skin the deer and prep the meat myself. Im old school and believe in taking personal responsibility for your life and asking for help from your family and friends if you need it. Ive read the bible a couple of times and pay heed to the wisdom of Jesus. WOWWW . . that's a bit much huh? Kind of got on a rant there. Any way that's what Ive been focused on since before my retirement. I watched my father die of a heart attach when he was 44 years old and that started my interest in health.

[Deleted]

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

The Celcius / Fahrenheit conversion formula is :

  • °C x 9/5 + 32 = °F &

  • (°F - 32) x 5/9 = °C !!

Either way my friend - we're cooking on gas & fiddling furiously like Nero too it feels.

ad iudicium ...

[-] 3 points by factsrfun (6883) from Phoenix, AZ 1 year ago

I spend at least a half an hour everyday looking at this:

http://www.ijis.iarc.uaf.edu/en/home/seaice_extent.htm

It should have it's own TV show doing a daily report, but it might have trouble getting sponsors.

[-] -1 points by repubsRtheprob (1209) 1 year ago
[-] -2 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

Thanx for this very interesting link [ http://www.ijis.iarc.uaf.edu/en/home/seaice_extent.htm ]. With an eye opening karmic coincidence, I had just posted an article where this will be relevant and you could be right about "getting sponsors", lol.

fiat lux ...

[-] 3 points by amabokuf (-97) 1 year ago

You need to wear one of these. Your exhales are destroying the Earth.

http://occupywallst.org/forum/un-delegates-agree-to-wear-co2-mask/

[-] 0 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

You get your head outta your (..x..) & I'll wear one of those ! Agreed ?

ad absurdum(b) ...

[-] 0 points by amabokuf (-97) 1 year ago

Your premise is faulty and thus you're pissing in the wind.

You'd rather destroy the planet by continuing to breath and exhale than to sacrifice for your fellow man. It is your kind of selfishness that is what is wrong with the world.

[-] 3 points by inclusionman (7064) 1 year ago

The Department of the Interior has announced that they are reevaluating Shell’s Arctic drilling permits after a series of mishaps throughout last year — culminating with one of its drillship running aground in late December — prevented the company from drilling as planned.

Shell’s failure was six years and $4.5 billion in the making and only confirmed what experts have been saying all along — that drilling for oil in the Arctic will never be safe. Now it seems that Secretary Salazar and the government might be coming to the same conclusion.

This is our chance to stop Shell from drilling in the Arctic all together in 2013. Call Secretary of the Interior Salazar’s office now and tell him to cancel Shell’s drilling permits. Everything you need to make the call is below.

Step 1) Call (202) 208-7351. If it's between the hours of 9am and 5pm EST you should be able to talk to a person. If you aren't calling between those hours and don't speak to a person, skip step #2 and simply leave the message below.

Step 2) The phone will be answered by a staff person in Secretary Salazar's office. Tell them your name, city and state you are calling from, and then tell the staffer you are calling to leave a message with Secretary Salazar about Shell's permits to drill in the Arctic. You will then be asked if you would like to use the Interior Department's comment line, politely say no, and say that you would prefer leaving your comment with the staff person you are speaking with so that he/she can give that message to the Secretary directly.

Step 3) Leave your message. Here's a sample:

"Hi, my name is _____, I live in [city, state], and I want Secretary Salazar to revoke Shell’s permits to drill for oil in the Arctic waters off the coast of Alaska" Step 4) Last, let us know that you made the call by clicking the button below.

I made the call

All this year we’re going to continue our campaign to stop Shell from drilling in the Arctic and to declare the high Arctic a global sanctuary off limits to industrialization. This is a huge moment in that campaign and your support is critical.

Thanks for making the call,

[-] 4 points by Renneye (3749) 1 year ago

Thank you 'Iman'! Everyone here can pick up the phone and make this call. This could, and maybe should be a stand alone thread in the main 'Forum Post'. It is a simple action, that sends a cogent message to the powers that be. Even people outside of the U.S. should make this call to let them know that the world is watching. Thanks again.

[-] 2 points by inclusionman (7064) 1 year ago

Feel free. I'd be happy if just a few are moved to action. Or just read it. and are informed.

[-] 2 points by inclusionman (7064) 1 year ago

No no! Thank you!! I will bump it this morning.

[-] -1 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

Huh ?!

[-] 1 points by amabokuf (-97) 1 year ago

Sorry, I should have used crayons or perhaps translated to Latin.

[-] 0 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

You allude to some unrecognised and unspecified "premise" and accuse me of "pissing in the wind" ?!

If I am, why is it landing on you ?!! Wanna get yourself out of the way or explain yourself or both ?!!!

temet nosce ...

[-] 2 points by amabokuf (-97) 1 year ago

This is pathetic.

[-] -3 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

Finally, it seems we have a point of agreement !!

nosce te ipsum ...

[-] 3 points by Ache4Change (3280) 1 year ago

Turning you onto - http://www.nationofchange.org/environment and Never Give Up! Occupy The Issues!

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

"2012 : The Year We Did Our Best To Abandon The Natural World",

"Emissions are rising, ice is melting and yet the response of governments is simply to pretend that none of it is happening".

by George Monbiot.

It was the year of living dangerously. In 2012 governments turned their backs on the living planet, demonstrating that no chronic problem, however grave, will take priority over an immediate concern, however trivial. I believe there has been no worse year for the natural world in the past half-century.

Three weeks before the minimum occurred, the melting of the Arctic's sea ice broke the previous record. Remnants of the global megafauna – such as rhinos and bluefin tuna – were shoved violently towards extinction. Novel tree diseases raged across continents. Bird and insect numbers continued to plummet, coral reefs retreated, marine life dwindled. And those charged with protecting us and the world in which we live pretended that none of it was happening.

Their indifference was distilled into a great collective shrug at the Earth Summit in June. The first summit, 20 years before, was supposed to have heralded a new age of environmental responsibility. During that time, thanks largely to the empowerment of corporations and the ultra-rich, the square root of nothing has been achieved. Far from mobilising to address this, in 2012 the leaders of some of the world's most powerful governments – the US, the UK, Germany and Russia – didn't even bother to turn up.

But they did send their representatives to sabotage it. The Obama administration even sought to reverse commitments made by George Bush Sr in 1992. The final declaration was a parody of inaction. While the 190 countries that signed it expressed "deep concern" about the world's escalating crises, they agreed no new targets, dates or commitments, with one exception. Sixteen times they committed themselves to "sustained growth", a term they used interchangeably with its polar opposite, "sustainability".

The climate meeting in Doha at the end of the year produced a similar combination of inanity and contradiction. Governments have now begun to concede, without evincing any great concern, that they will miss their target of no more than 2C of global warming this century. Instead we're on track for between four and six degrees. To prevent climate breakdown, coal burning should be in steep decline. Far from it: the International Energy Agency reports that global use of the most carbon-dense fossil fuel is climbing by about 200m tonnes a year. This helps to explain why global emissions are rising so fast.

Our leaders now treat climate change as a guilty secret. Even after the devastation of Hurricane Sandy and the record droughts and wildfires that savaged the US, the two main presidential contenders refused to mention the subject, except for one throwaway sentence each. Has an issue this big ever received as little attention in a presidential race?

The same failures surround the other forces of destruction. In 2012 European governments flunked their proposed reform of the Common Agricultural Policy, which is perfectly designed to maximise environmental damage. The farm subsidies it provides are conditional on farmers destroying the vegetation (which also means the other wildlife) on their land. We pay €55bn a year to trash the natural world.

This contributes to what I have come to see as a great global polishing: a rubbing away of ecosystems and natural structures by the intensification of farming, fishing, mining and other industries. Looking back on this year a few decades hence, this destruction will seem vastly more significant than any of the stories with which the media is obsessed. Like governments, media companies have abandoned the living world.

In the UK in 2012, the vandals were given the keys to the art gallery. Environmental policy is now in the hands of people – such as George Osborne, Owen Paterson, Richard Benyon and Eric Pickles – who have no more feeling for the natural world than the Puritans had for fine art. They are busy defacing the old masters and smashing the ancient sculptures.

They have lit a bonfire of environmental regulations, hobbled bodies such as Natural England and the Environment Agency and ensured that the countryside becomes even more of an exclusive playground for the ultra-rich, unhampered by effective restraints on the burning of grouse moors, the use of lead shot, the killing of birds of prey and the spraying of pesticides that are wiping out our bees and other invertebrates.

In the same spirit, the government has reduced the list of possible marine conservation zones from 127 to 31. Even these 31 will be protected in name only: the fishing industry will still be allowed to rampage through them. A fortnight ago, the UK lobbied successfully for quotas of several overexploited fish species to be raised, while pouring scorn on the scientific evidence that shows this is madness.

George Osborne has done the same thing to the UK's climate change policies. Though even the big power companies oppose him, he is seeking to scrap or delay our targets for cutting carbon emissions and to ensure that we remain hooked on natural gas as our primary source of power. The green investment bank which was supposed to have funded the transition to new technologies is the only state bank in Europe that is forbidden to borrow. It might as well not be there at all.

If there is hope, it lies with the people. Opinion polls show that voters do not support their governments' inaction. Even a majority of Conservatives believe that the UK should generate most of its electricity from renewables by 2030. In the US, 80% of people polled now say that climate change will be a serious problem for their country if nothing is done about it: a substantial rise since 2009. The problem is that most people are not prepared to act on these beliefs. Citizens, as well as governments and the media, have turned their faces away from humanity's greatest problem.

To avoid another terrible year like 2012, we must translate these passive concerns into a mass mobilisation. Groups such as 350.org show how it might be done. If this annus horribilis tells us anything, it is that action, in the absence of such mobilisation, is simply not going to happen. Governments care only as much as their citizens force them to care. Nothing changes unless we change.

~

fiat justitia ruat caelum ..

~

[Article copied verbatim under 'Fair Use' from : http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/dec/31/year-abandon-natural-world & please use this to access all the important, corroborating, embedded links]

.

Thanx for your link A4C & a happy 2013 to yours and yours.

respice, adspice, prospice ...

[-] 1 points by Ache4Change (3280) 1 year ago

Yes! 'If there is hope, it lies with the people' & 'we must translate these passive concerns into a mass mobilisation'! Despite being from a British point of view to some extent, thanks for this really very interesting article.

I have read your other George Monbiot posts here and I appreciate this man's commitment as I do yours. With 350.org in mind, please see - http://www.nationofchange.org/will-350org-fossil-fuel-divestment-campaign-be-key-tactic-2013-battle-over-climate-change-1357146423 . Never Give Up On Climate Issues! Occupy The Future! Solidarity and good wishes for 2013 to you and all at OWS.

[-] 2 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

"If there is hope, it lies with the people." & thanx for your excellent link A4C and I recommend the short (17m) video to all interested readers. "2012 was a year of extreme weather, from the melting of the Arctic, to Superstorm Sandy, to the massive typhoon in the Philippines. It was also the warmest year on record in the United States, with massive droughts and frequent wildfires."

Young people are are biggest hope and I believe (& hope) that they are increasingly starting to join the dots and question their future as indentured debt slaves.

dum spiro, spero ...

[-] 2 points by Ache4Change (3280) 1 year ago

Chris Hedges on Hurricane Sandy, Climate Change & the future - http://www.nationofchange.org/katrina-all-over-again-1354611673 .

I enjoyed your link & this guy's photo blog is very good - http://linhdinhphotos.blogspot.co.uk/ . Climate Change and its implications is particularly felt by the young and it could well be THE issue that rouses them from the apathy of their parents' generation ... or 'so long as I breathe, I hope' :)

Never Give Up! Occupy The Future! Solidarity.

[-] 2 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

"Hurricane Sandy, if you are poor, is the Katrina of the North. It has exposed the nation’s fragile, dilapidated and shoddy infrastructure, one that crumbles under minimal stress. It has highlighted the inability of utility companies, as well as state and federal agencies, to cope with the looming environmental disasters that because of the climate crisis will soon come in wave after wave. But, most important, it illustrates the depraved mentality of an oligarchic and corporate elite that, as conditions worsen, retreats into self-contained gated communities, guts basic services and abandons the wider population."

"This storm—amid freakish weather patterns such storms will become routine—resulted in at least $71.3 billion in property damage in New York and New Jersey. Many of the 305,000 houses in New York destroyed by Sandy will never be rebuilt. New York City says it will have to spend $800 million just to repair its roads. And that is only the start. The next hurricane season will most likely descend on the Eastern Seaboard with even greater destructive fury. A couple of more hurricanes like this one and whole sections of the coast will become uninhabitable."

"This is the new America. It is an America where economic and environmental catastrophes converge to trigger systems breakdown and collapse. It is an America divided between corporate predators and their prey. It is an America that, as things unravel, increasingly sacrifices its own."

The above three paragraphs are excerpted from your link to the excellent article by the ever insightful Chris Hedges. Thanx for that A4C & I recommend it to all readers and further to which, I also append :

The above is a strong piece which will reward a close read.

veritas vos liberabit ...

[-] 3 points by Ache4Change (3280) 1 year ago

'The world was supposed to be getting better. We were supposed to be becoming wealthier, more enlightened. Society was supposed to be advancing. Here I am in America, the most “advanced” nation on Earth, yet even as our financial wealth has doubled and doubled again in fifty years, we have lost wealth of a more basic form; for example, the social capital of feeling safe, feeling at home where we live. Is more security the best we can aspire to? What about a society where safety does not equal security? What about a world where no human being wields an assault rifle? What about a world where we mostly know the faces and stories of the people around us? What about a world where we know that our daily activities contribute to the healing of the biosphere and the well-being of other people? We need a Story of the People that includes all of those things – and that doesn’t feel like a fantasy.' - from your very sobering article & one from me in return - http://www.nationofchange.org/new-year-s-revolution-connecting-dots-coming-together-and-fighting-hell-1356706171 . Never Give Up Sharing News and Views - No Matter How Sobering! Occupy Reality - No Matter How Harsh! Yes, 'the truth will set you free'.

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

''Can we connect the dots between our primary passions and the burning issues? Can we bring together the full spectrum of the activist rainbow into a single, powerful, laser-focused movement before it's all too late? Can we reach critical mass in public consciousness and grassroots mobilization before the tipping point in greenhouse gas pollution and runaway global warming (565 billion tons of additional carbon dioxide, 450 ppm of CO2) knocks us down forever?'' from your excellent and ultra-sobering link and gosh, I hope so and thus further consider :

ne quid nimis ...

[-] 2 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 6 months ago

If only those money figures were relevant

the way to stop CO2 emissions is to stop emitting them

the market can't change that equation

[Removed]

[Removed]

[-] 2 points by TikiJ (-38) 1 year ago

He's already approved the fracking and the Keystone.

http://www.truth-out.org/news/item/16513-obama-administration-approves-alec-model-bill-for-fracking-chemical-fluid-disclosure-on-public-lands

http://www.forbes.com/sites/christopherhelman/2013/06/25/obama-declares-keystone-xl-will-be-approved/

Someone who was against the aforementioned would declare it so. Wouldnt sign these things.

People need to stop being fooled and start developing their own people to lead.

[Deleted]

[-] 1 points by Builder (4202) 1 year ago

Australia has a tax on CO2. Despite a lot of scare-mongering on the part of the opposition politicians, not a lot has changed, though I do see the price of generating electricity rising, which will be passed on to the consumer.

[Deleted]

[-] 1 points by Builder (4202) 1 year ago

It should be obvious, by now.

They don't work for "us". They are on the payroll of the corporate lobbyists. They are also allowed to play insider trader on the stock exchange.

Criminality has been legalised in the US of A.

[-] 1 points by DSamms (-294) 1 year ago

Well said...

[-] 1 points by analystwanabe99 (153) 1 year ago

Now you go to far. If I have to get an attorney involved Im done. I just wanted to make a suggestion that I was hoping someone would run with and I would get a reduced electric bill out of. Come on . . where are the activists? Someone run with this ball!!! I need my electric bill reduced or at least a new more efficient air conditioner. . . .

[-] 2 points by Ache4Change (3280) 1 year ago

Excellent and Very Important Post! Thanks for posting and also for all your and our attention - http://www.nationofchange.org/why-climate-deniers-have-no-scientific-credibility-one-pie-chart-1354370613 & http://www.nationofchange.org/greenhouse-gas-concentrations-reach-new-record-1353509096 . Never Give Up On Our Ecosystem! Keep Occupying The Real Issues! Solidarity.

[-] 2 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

Great Pie Chart ! Thanx A4C for those great links, which I recommend to everyone as well as the second link, which was somewhat rather alarming !! Keep Occupying The Environmental Issues!!!

pax, amor et lux ...

[-] 0 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

"Billionaires secretly fund attacks on climate science", by Steve Connor :

"A secretive funding organisation in the United States that guarantees anonymity for its billionaire donors has emerged as a major operator in the climate "counter movement" to undermine the science of global warming, The Independent has learnt.

The Donors Trust, along with its sister group Donors Capital Fund, based in Alexandria, Virginia, is funnelling millions of dollars into the effort to cast doubt on climate change without revealing the identities of its wealthy backers or that they have links to the fossil fuel industry.

However, an audit trail reveals that Donors is being indirectly supported by the American billionaire Charles Koch who, with his brother David, jointly owns a majority stake in Koch Industries, a large oil, gas and chemicals conglomerate based in Kansas.

Millions of dollars has been paid to Donors through a third-party organisation, called the Knowledge and Progress Fund, with is operated by the Koch family but does not advertise its Koch connections.

Some commentators believe that such convoluted arrangements are becoming increasingly common to shield the identity and backgrounds of the wealthy supporters of climate scepticism – some of whom have vested interests in the fossil-fuel industry.

The Knowledge and Progress Fund, whose directors include Charles Koch and his wife Liz, gave $1.25m to Donors in 2007, a further $1.25m in 2008 and $2m in 2010. It does not appear to have given money to any other group and there is no mention of the fund on the websites of Koch Industries or the Charles Koch Foundation.

The Donors Trust is a "donor advised fund", meaning that it has special status under the US tax system. People who give money receive generous tax relief and can retain greater anonymity than if they had used their own charitable foundations because, technically, they do not control how Donors spends the cash.

Anonymous private funding of global warming sceptics, who have criticised climate scientists for their lack of transparency, is becoming increasingly common. The Kochs, for instance, have overtaken the corporate funding of climate denialism by oil companies such as ExxonMobil. One such organisation, Americans for Prosperity, which was established by David Koch, claimed that the "Climategate" emails illegally hacked from the University of East Anglia in 2009 proved that global warming was the "biggest hoax the world has ever seen".

Robert Brulle, a sociologist at Drexel University in Philadelphia, has estimated that over the past decade about $500m has been given to organisations devoted to undermining the science of climate change, with much of the money donated anonymously through third parties.

The trust has given money to the Competitive Enterprise Institute which is currently being sued for defamation by Professor Michael Mann of Pennsylvania University, an eminent climatologist, whose affidavit claims that he was accused of scientific fraud and compared to a convicted child molester.

Dr Brulle said: "We really have anonymous giving and unaccountable power being exercised here in the creation of the climate countermovement. There is no attribution, no responsibility for the actions of these foundations to the public.

"By becoming anonymous, they remove a political target. They can plausibly claim that they are not giving to these organisations, and there is no way to prove otherwise."

© independent.co.uk

Item copied verbatim under 'Fair Use' from link above & thanx for your links.

caveat ...

[-] 4 points by Ache4Change (3280) 1 year ago

'The Donors Trust, along with its sister group Donors Capital Fund, based in Alexandria, Virginia, is funnelling millions of dollars into the effort to cast doubt on climate change without revealing the identities of its wealthy backers or that they have links to the fossil fuel industry.' - Enough said!

Also see - http://donorstrust.org/ ; http://www.livescience.com/26618-climate-change-denial-koch-donors-trust.html and also see - http://www.huffingtonpost.com/kevin-grandia/new-report-finds-shadowy-_b_2017779.html . This b-s is is of course the very predictable consequence of 'Citizens United' and Americans really need to wake up to the complete Corporate Capture of the US government.

Never Give Up Exposing The Usurpers! Occupy Wall Street! Solidarity.

[-] 0 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

Re. 'The Donor's Trust', please also see :

"Climate of Doubt" describes the 'Libertarian' individuals and groups behind a well organized effort to attack science by actually undermining scientists and to try to unseat politicians who say they believe there is current climate change caused by human activity. This film also investigates the funding which powers the sceptic movement in the name of free market, anti-regulation, small government causes and finds that funding has shifted away from fossil fuel companies to more ideological & less public sources.

So who are these 'free market think tanks' & 'institutes' behind this pseudo-libertarian crusade ?

Many thanx for the very interesting links. Never Give Up ! Go Occupy !!

e tenebris, lux ...

[-] 4 points by Ache4Change (3280) 1 year ago

'Climate Of Doubt' is a brilliant documentary exposé of Corporate Shilling and the network of corporate 'think-tanks and associations' who are out to undermine action and awareness on the matter of man made, global warming. I watched this last night with friends and thoroughly recommend it. Also see:

http://www.nationofchange.org/students-colleges-take-our-money-out-dirty-energy-1359644568

http://www.nationofchange.org/alec-loses-two-big-names-clean-power-over-opposition-renewable-energy-standards-1359644890

http://www.nationofchange.org/creepy-student-essay-contest-wall-street-s-war-young-minds-1359731557

The last link is particularly poignant and revealing of the level of Corporate Control that is insinuating itself into campuses everywhere, in an effort to influence, divert and subvert the future generations.

Never Give Up Resisting The Oligarchs! Occupy The Occupiers! Solidarity.

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

I would highly recommend PBS' "Climate Of Doubt" to all readers & thanx for these great links. The final article is extremely interesting & I thoroughly recommend it to all forum readers. Resistance Is Fertile !!!

per ardua ad astra ...

[-] 2 points by Ache4Change (3280) 1 year ago

'Resistance Is Fertile'! Yes indeed, to - 'Corprocrisy: The Systematic Betrayal of American Workers' - http://www.nationofchange.org/corpocrisy-systematic-betrayal-american-workers-1359988966 from which - 'Free market idealists argue that capitalism works for anyone with a little initiative and a willingness to work hard. That might be true if job opportunities were available to everyone. But the facts reveal a lack of opportunity, largely because the very system of capitalism that's supposed to work for everyone is betraying its most productive members. It's a step-by-step process of hypocrisy disguised as free enterprise'. Never Give Up Resisting! Occupying Is Fertile! Solidarity.

[-] 0 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

The facts reveal a lack of opportunity, largely because the very system of capitalism that’s supposed to 'work for everyone' is actually betraying its most productive members. Thanx for another excellent article and excerpt, further to which (and still in keeping with this forum-post, I'd like to think), I also append :

fiat lux et fiat justitia ...

[-] 2 points by Ache4Change (3280) 1 year ago

'The severe crisis crippling Spain is also sparking some creative responses, such the Okonomía project, a teaching initiative that helps individuals and communities to understand the workings of the economy and make more informed decisions to manage their finances.' Thank you again for another very good & inspiring article and another one in a very similar vein - http://www.nationofchange.org/more-75-percent-americans-delayed-their-retirement-avoid-losing-health-benefits-1360162330 .Never Give Up! Go Occupy!

[-] 2 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

"More than 3/4 of retired Americans ended up working longer than they initially planned because they didn’t want to lose access to their employer-based health benefits. And a majority of the Americans who are currently in the workforce are also planning to delay their retirement in order to keep the insurance plans they have through their employer". Taken from your linked article and this is a very important matter and particularly pertinent as I just read this article :

which in turn was a follow up to :

From the first link : "The bipartisans in Washington are currently focused on Social Security and Medicare - not to improve health care and retirement, but to cut them. There is constant, exaggerated "sky is falling" deficit commentary about purported out-of-control spending caused by these programs, while the real twin crises of poverty retirement and health insecurity are ignored. Popular solutions to these crises exist that would strengthen Social Security and Medicare and spur economic recovery." I believe that this is an article all engaged Americans of whatever age, should read - even if it is a li'l off topic to the subject matter of this particular forum-post ;-)

multum in parvo ...

[-] 2 points by Ache4Change (3280) 1 year ago

'The arguments that we must cut all federal spending have come packaged in the myth that Americans have been spending more than they have to. The truth however is that American means have not been keeping up with the growth of the economy. Wages have only increased 30% where as the economy has almost doubled. This is why most of us need better healthcare, education and stronger safety nets. The only people whose means have soared are at the top.' - from - http://www.nationofchange.org/myth-americans-living-beyond-their-means-1360253410 . Thanks for those killer links and it was worth going off-topic from the subject of your post here. Never Give Up Exposing The Smoke & Mirrors! Go Occupy!

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

"The Politics of Debt Default - The U.S. Congress : From One Crisis to Another", by Prof Rodrigue Tremblay :

Thanx for your excellent Robert Reich link & back on topic, also consider, Dr. James Hansen at 'TED' :

e tenebris, lux ...

[-] 3 points by Ache4Change (3280) 1 year ago

The TED Hansen link is awesome and Thanks for your links. If you like Robert Reich, then you'll like this - http://www.nationofchange.org/economic-challenge-ahead-more-jobs-and-growth-not-deficit-reduction-1360248031 from which -

'By extending the Bush tax cuts for all but the top 2 percent of Americans and repealing the alternative minimum tax, that deal increased budget deficits by about $3 trillion above what the budget office projected last August.

The real deficit problem comes after that — when rising healthcare costs combined with 76 million decaying boomers will cost us all a fortune.

The answer is to move from fee-for-service health care to pay-for-healthy-outcomes, including lots of preventive care. This will almost certainly require a single payer instead of our balkanized healthcare system drowning in paperwork as each part of it bills and tries to collect from every other part.

Right now the central challenge is to reignite the economy — getting jobs back, improving wages, and restoring growth.

Deficit reduction moves us in the opposite direction. That’s because most consumers (whose spending is 70 percent of economic activity) are still losing ground, and businesses won’t expand and hire without more consumers.'

Never Give Up Showing The Clear Truths! Occupy The Real Issues! Solidarity.

[-] -2 points by 99nproud (2157) 3 months ago

Yes this is more like it.

I will review.

[-] 2 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 1 year ago

All the taxes they are getting ready to levy for this problem are going to fall right on the middle class, just like they always do. Either directly or just passed down.

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

We'll have to see past, through & around mere 'money' - if we are to see and embrace our future. The 'Market' is The Problem and the constant pursuit of merely short term profit, is now an impediment to human progress and environmental sustainability. It does not have to be so. Money is Not any law of nature like say gravity and the tides ; it is a creation of our culture.

ad iudicium ...

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[-] 1 points by beautifulworld (20523) 1 year ago

"Atmospheric concentrations of carbon dioxide surpassed a notable milestone this week.

They reached a daily average above 400 parts per million, reported NOAA, for the first time in human history."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/10/atmospheric-co2-concentrations_n_3253757.html

[-] 0 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

"Passing 400ppm of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere is indeed a landmark and the rate of increase is faster than ever and shows no sign of abating due to a lack of political committment to address the urgent issue of climate change - the world is now most likely committed to an increase in surface temperature of 3C-5C compared to pre-industrial times." (Prof. Professor Bob Watson, former IPCC chair and UK government chief scientific adviser) from :

Thanx for your excellent link which I recommend to all interested readers.

fiat lux...

[-] 2 points by beautifulworld (20523) 1 year ago

Environmental Emergency!!! Wake up people!!!

"Climate Change To Shrink Animal And Plant Habitats Dramatically, Study Forecasts"

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/12/climate-change-habitat-animal-plant_n_3263046.html

"About 57 percent of plants and 34 percent of animal species were likely to lose more than half the area with a climate suited to them by the 2080s if nothing was done to limit emissions from power plants, factories and vehicles, they wrote in the journal Nature Climate Change."

"But the scientists said governments could reduce the projected habitat loss by 60 percent if global greenhouse gas emissions peaked by 2016 and then fell. A peak by 2030 would cut losses by 40 percent."

This is serious stuff. Thank god some young people have decided to forego profit making to study things like conservation biology. Maybe it is not too late to mitigate the damage.

[+] -5 points by DKAtoday (28242) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

And no coverage on MSM to inform the public about this event.

[-] 1 points by beautifulworld (20523) 1 year ago

Americans would rather hear the sordid details of the Cleveland case, than how their weather will be changing big time and the earth will never be the same again.

[-] -3 points by DKAtoday (28242) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

Sad that so many look for any kind of distraction possible to avoid facing reality. Well to bad for them as things are getting so that anywhere/everywhere they look it is looking back at them. It is becoming impossible to ignore that bad shit is happening - and - IT WILL AFFECT THEM!!!

There IS nowhere to run - nowhere to hide.

[-] 1 points by beautifulworld (20523) 1 year ago

Here is Monbiot on the matter:

"Climate milestone is a moment of symbolic significance on road of idiocy. The only way forward is back: to retrace our steps and seek to return atmospheric concentrations to around 350ppm."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/georgemonbiot/2013/may/10/carbon-dioxide-milestone-climate-change

[+] -4 points by DKAtoday (28242) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

Thanks - made a nice tweet. But as I agree we need to reduce our CO level I think it would have been better stated - as - we need to move forward and shed pollution tech of the last century in all of it's forms.

Climate milestone is a moment of symbolic significance on road of idiocy | George Monbiot http://gu.com/p/3fmkt/tw via @guardian


Check this one out -

http://occupywallst.org/forum/alecs-most-wanted/#comment-968796

[-] 1 points by beautifulworld (20523) 1 year ago

1600 years of ice melts in 25. If this doesn't scare people into caring about the environment I don't know what will. NY Times article:

"In Sign of Warming, 1,600 Years of Ice in Andes Melted in 25 Years"

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/05/world/americas/1600-years-of-ice-in-perus-andes-melted-in-25-years-scientists-say.html

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

''Climate change 'will make hundreds of millions homeless''' :

''It is increasingly likely that hundreds of millions of people will be displaced from their homelands in the near future as a result of global warming. That is the stark warning of economist and climate change expert Lord Stern following the news last week that concentrations of carbon dioxide in our atmosphere had reached a level of 400 parts per million (ppm).

''Massive movements of people are likely to occur over the rest of the century because global temperatures are likely to rise to by up to 5C because carbon dioxide levels have risen unabated for 50 years,said Stern.'' Thanx again for your important and salutary link, which is I recommend to all readers.

caveat ...

[-] 2 points by beautifulworld (20523) 1 year ago

It's sick that humans won't pay any attention until their own homes are gone. In the meantime and before that happens, 1/3, yes one-third, of animal species will be at risk. Remember the food chain? We may be at the top, but if we're at the top of nothing, where are we?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2013/may/13/animals-species-climate-change

[+] -4 points by DKAtoday (28242) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

Soylent Green - it's peopleeeeeeeeee

[+] -5 points by DKAtoday (28242) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

Going out to all the Greedy in the World their supporters and followers - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2m9Woo6UwoI - without ever knowing - the way.

[-] -1 points by beautifulworld (20523) 1 year ago

Thanks. I've heard that song a lot, but never had any idea what it meant.

[+] -5 points by DKAtoday (28242) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

And Now?

[-] 1 points by Kavatz (464) from Edmonton, AB 1 year ago

This may not seem related right off the bat, but it is. Maybe a silly question, but have you seen this (the video)? http://occupywallst.org/forum/you-cant-miss-this-not-conglomerate-related/

[-] 1 points by TrevorMnemonic (5827) 1 year ago

365 comments! DAYYUUMMM!!!

I really do like James Hansen. And dang it I still need to read that book of his I bought last month!

[-] 3 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

"Can Civilization Survive Capitalism?", by Noam Chomsky :

Thanx for your solidarity TM ~*~

pax et lux ...

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[-] 1 points by TrevorMnemonic (5827) 1 year ago

James Hansen, Storms of My Grandchildren, Excerpt CHAPTER 9 AN HONEST, EFFECTIVE PATH 205

We have finally arrived at the main story: what we need to do to solve the climate problem, and how we can save the future for our grandchildren.

The present situation is analogous to that faced by Lincoln with slavery and Churchill with Nazism — the time for compromises and appeasement is over.

http://miscellaneousmaterial.blogspot.com/2010/06/james-hansen-storms-of-my-grandchildren.html

[-] 4 points by gnomunny (6638) from St Louis, MO 1 year ago

Excellent link Trevor. I'd never heard of 'fee-and-dividend.' But I like the sounds of it, especially if it's distributed to the citizens rather that a payroll tax reduction, since not everyone is employed, but everyone uses fossil fuels.

[-] 2 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

That was an intense read, that I did in three chunks !!! However, my memory of chunks #1&2 has faded so I may have to come back to your brain achey link again later :-)For any others readers here, give it a go but get 'aclimatised' (pun intended!) with this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fWInyaMWBY8 & I end with James Hansen's own words: "we had better start thinking about the Venus syndrome." Ouch !!

caveat ...

[-] 1 points by TrevorMnemonic (5827) 1 year ago

didn't you hear that there's a football player who had a fake twitter girlfriend?

And Beyonce lip syncing?

There's no time to talk about climate change with all this real news happening. Maybe after we discuss Jennifer Aniston's love life there might be time to argue about guns and birth control!

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

Despite the fluff and froth of fatuous fame and fickle fortune ...

Ironic that Jennifer Aniston was made famous by 'Friends' yet seems to have none ! Such is the 'reality' of style over substance and appearance over actuality, me thinx !! All goes to show, that love and life is much more than haircut and hubris !!!

verum ex absurdo ...

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[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

"The democratization of the energy sector is not only seen as a goal in itself, but also as a means to achieve an ecologically viable relation to the environment. The proposed law therefore also bans any new investments in nuclear and coal-fired plants. Instead, investments will be put into decentralized renewable energy production as well as public energy saving programs. To secure socially just provision of energy, the company is not allowed to cut anyone off from the grid under any circumstances."

"Such referendum initiatives are a great way for Berlin’s social movements to work together and make progress on a single issue. Crucially, local legislation for referenda is relatively favorable. Berlin state law forces a general vote if any organization hands in 200.000 valid signatures in a city of 3.5 million inhabitants. Gathering such numbers of signatures is a lot of work, but the effort for the referendum on water privatization has proved those targets can be met by a committed coalition of activists and organizations working together."

The above is taken from your strong link, further to which - in keeping with this thread, I also append :

omnia causa fiunt ...

[-] 1 points by inclusionman (7064) 1 year ago

Depressing reality in that article. but I'm not surprised. Didn't see the revised estimate of all arctic Ice being gone by 2020, but there it is.

Probably be sooner.

Thx

[-] 0 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

Depressing ? Yes, maybe but here's a wee insight into what is possible :

per aspera ...

[-] 1 points by inclusionman (7064) 1 year ago

Wow. Not that is a bit encouraging. I KNOW the many protests/marches I've been to in NY have delayed the fracking decision, The documentaries have informed/outraged many. The many petitions DO make a difference.

And this article shows the industry is reacting.

We gotta ratchet up the effort.

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[-] 2 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

The fact that The Corporations are fearful of "Highly Effective Campaigns" is very cool and a real source of some hope for the rest of us. Thanx dude for your kind concern. Real life and time constraints have taken precedence lately but I'm still reading and linking when I can. In solidarity, here's one for you :

"The planet Earth is not created or built by the Nation States claiming membership at the UN. The comprehensive system of splendid and encompassed Universe and its resources on the planet Earth are God-given gift to mankind, and its violation and exploitation will be checked by God as it happened to many in the past only to be found as artifacts in museums and history books. History offers a learning role but nations and people denying the role of history ultimately cannot escape the wrath of history. Winning the wars was not part of the American aims and strategies but killing and destabilizing the poor nation was, and it has achieved that aim. All actions have reactions. The consequences are yet to come."

pax et lux ; nunc et semper ...

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[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

Interesting link from a very interesting site ! Thanx !! Go Occupy !!!

Also please see :

fiat lux ...

[-] 0 points by repubsRtheprob (1209) 1 year ago

I think I saw you postthat somewhere else.

Excellent info.

Thanks

[-] 0 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

Not at all sure what the NRA or guns has to do with this forum-post topic but it does give me an opportunity to voice a thought re. a possible deep psychic reason for US gun fixation !!!

However, to get my drift, you'd have to engage with : http://occupywallst.org/forum/kill-anything-that-moves/ & then cogitate over my point, which is that - Vets Know What Went Down Abroad & The Atrocities That They Were Party To ... so, it has entered the deep psyche & the 'collective subconscious' of the nation that such horrors are possible !!

To get my line of thinking here, you'll have to read LeoYo's forum-posted article but I should warn you - it really is rather a brain jolting read !

ad iudicium ...

[-] -1 points by WSmith (2091) from Cornelius, OR 1 year ago

I just had this link on my clipboard and threw on the most inappropriate reply I could find, cuz I thought you needed a laugh. No harm, no foul.

I'm a very quick study and turn on a dime, so I don't need prep.

I have written extensively on the topic of guns and I surprised myself with one really good sentence, and now I'm ruined for anybody else on the topic, including myself. Wish I could find it. That's my only complaint about this forum, no personal account that stores your posts and replies. I put stuff on here and never see it again. And the "search" feature is a fucking joke! But apparently the piece on guns was so great it blew DK's mind (probable stretch), he read it and then he disappeared.

A few people get killed in Libya and the ridiculous Right goes (and stays) bananas, 20 kids get slaughtered at school and they pooh pooh it. To me, that's reason enough to ban all guns unconditionally.

[-] 0 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

Ok. I get you re. guns etc. & so thanx + re. my previous comment above and also fyi :

Re. the "search" box, enter any forum poster's moniker and their last 50 forum-posts will come up and enter any subject and again, relevant forum-pots will come up but it's too much to expect that this 'open-source' system can pull up and aggregate any individual's comments. Bookmark anything you need to.

verb. sat. sap ...

[-] -1 points by WSmith (2091) from Cornelius, OR 1 year ago

Doesn't work for me! I'm used to unwarranted or spiteful prejudice.

[-] 2 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

Chill and don't take it personally, lol. Try putting : user:WSmith - into the search box and see what you get ! Use "user:" & then posters' moniker and you'll get the last 50 forum-post list. Put any word or phrase in the search box and relevant forum-posts will come up. Good luck.

pax ...

[-] -1 points by WSmith (2091) from Cornelius, OR 1 year ago

Thank you!

Irish, and very thick skinned.

Oh, "user"! Missed that memo.

Also false and wild accusations, they must bump out the memos.

How's the horse-meat controversy treating you?

[-] 0 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

Though I'd say 'nay' (neigh), some folk have no 'beef' with horse-meat so long as it's labelled correctly !!! 'Greed' knows no limits sadly and excessive, intensive cattle farming has some huge repercussions for our environment and atmosphere too.

ne quid nimis ...

[-] -1 points by WSmith (2091) from Cornelius, OR 1 year ago

The vegans say theirs is the only way to go, my doctor says they are all anemic and can't function properly!!

[-] 1 points by peacehurricane (293) 1 year ago

Your doctor is like all the rest and has no idea what he is talking about! The topic of flesh eating was on my mind and here it is. I am telling you true IT IS SURE DEATH! You are what you eat and not any doctor can change that fact. While the colony within people eating flesh has them convinced they need eat it, this because that colony of parasites needs to be fed. It is not the person in need of meat. If Jesus ever made a pleading statement it was about not eating death in sacrifice for his Father, stop doing it. From my perspective all conversing with people choosing death is a waste of time because it is simple to see that they will not understand where I am coming from and that is so okay knowing that I choose to live and they will not understand under spell of what lives off them.

[-] 2 points by Builder (4202) 1 year ago

Large mushrooms have replaced meat in many of my meals. B12 is abundant in fresh fungii. Just don't cook it to mush, and eat it raw in salads.

[-] 1 points by peacehurricane (293) 1 year ago

Sprouts of all sorts can deliver all the necessary nutrients in one foot square counter space. The sprouts have as much or more of vitamins/minerals as the grown foods. I am all for more fun-gi in all ways we need this and if you are a guy a little fun and it's on Good going! Lovin' you In solidarity for Worldwide FREEDOM...

[-] 3 points by Builder (4202) 1 year ago

My fave sprouts are chickpea, which are so sweet once sprouted they could be classed as a lolly. When a seed germinates, the starch converts to sugars, and the vitamin C content rises about six hundred percent.

A much better way to consume grains of any kind. Hell, even beer is made from sprouts (malt). That shuts up my mates who say sprouting is for hippies.

[-] 3 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

Re. US Forests : "The federal government has spent about $1 billion a year in recent years combating wildfires. Last year was the warmest on record in the lower 48 states and saw 9.2 million acres burned, the third-highest on record, according to the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration website. Insect infestations widely blamed on warming temperatures have killed tens of millions of acres of trees."- from your interesting link and many thanx for that and am appending this article in return :

fiat lux ...

[-] 1 points by 99nproud (2157) 1 year ago

Repubs blinded by the fossil fuel $$$ they wallow in.

Great article.

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

"Considering the threats of climate change, war, and disease, only an idiot – or a fossil-fuel billionaire like Charles or David Koch – would want us to bring in more oil with a pipeline or take any other steps to continue America's dependence on dirty and costly last-century fuels.", from :

fiat lux ...

[-] 1 points by 99nproud (2157) 1 year ago

I like the manhattan project bit. If we created some incentive to big business to build us a few million wind turbines we could stop burning fossil fuel.

[-] 2 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

Consider, "big business" is actually inherently opposed to sustainable power because in reality that would, should & could tend towards 'free power for all' & so how'd they 'sell' it to their share-holders ?!

'Free and sustainable and renewable and abundant' are actually antithetical to Corporate Crapitalism which thrives on faux scarcity in the midst of actual abundance in its blind pursuit of purely private profit.

Also consider : "Beyond the Brink -- A Climate Change Investigation" :

ad iudicium ...

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

"While a move towards renewable energy by Australia’s economy certainly won’t fix global warming on its own, it’s a step in the right direction, away from the rash of heat waves and wildfires—worsened by the climate change driven by fossil fuels’ carbon emissions—that have recently slammed the nation." - extracted from your excellent link, however more soberingly, I append in reply the following :

sic transit gloria mundi ...

[-] 6 points by inclusionman (7064) 1 year ago

We gotta ratchet up the protests. no let for him. What he needs to do is tell the epa to cap pollution from energy plants.

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

Yep !!! Ergo ; # F17 : http://action.sierraclub.org/site/PageServer?pagename=forwardonclimate and metaphorically but in spirit : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8QvxiQWp2g & check the lyrics :-)

per aspera ad astra ...

[-] 5 points by inclusionman (7064) 1 year ago

Don't get nothing w/o askin (or demanding)

Good tune

Don't know "easterhouse" was it?

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

"Love Someone" and feel it change your view on music !!!

Ergo : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UiInBOVHpO8 & check the lyrix !!

Re. 'Easterhouse' - Leftist band from Glasgow, Scotland & for a killer dance version of 'Come Out Fighting' - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-mSSaDmYLyI - Go one - give your ears a work out !

fiat lux ...

[-] 4 points by inclusionman (7064) 1 year ago

Sounds excellent. Sometimes small local bands are overlooked yet better than the pop crap "the industry" pushes.

Thanks

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

"What Does a Police State Look Like ?", by David Sirota :

Answer : "Violence, arrests of Occupy protesters and stop-and-frisk. Plus: A worshipful media" ! Also :

Solidarity @ OWS !!

consilio et animis ...

[-] 5 points by inclusionman (7064) 1 year ago

Police state facts in the art most troubling. Lawsuits not damaging to police/govt enough & didn't create a deterrent.

(Music great)

[-] 1 points by 99nproud (2157) 1 year ago

That is an accurate description of the corp objection. I will watch the Dovu you recommend.

Thanx

[-] 2 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

What if we could live in a clean world ? A world in which energy would be 100% renewable, water no longer polluted, transportation truly green and production methods clean and regenerative ?

There will be such a world. This documentary by 'VPRO Backlight' from Holland, explores the unprecedented possibilities of a new industrial revolution - "The Cleantech Revolution" :

Signs of a new future are visible everywhere, from China to the US and from Europe to Thailand. Green mobility powered by sustainable energy, clean drinking water for all thanks to nanotechnology, dyeing textiles using recycled CO2 etc.

All of this is possible and is happening successfully now ! Working together with "Cleantech" founder Nick Parker, this film shows what our world will possibly be like in the decades to come.

respice, adspice, prospice ...

[-] 5 points by Ackhuman (-88) from Fairfax, VA 1 year ago

"Clean tech" is code for "I haven't learned my lesson yet". We have too much technology right now, not too little. First you have to learn to be responsible with it, then you build new stuff. "Clean tech" has a monstrous energy footprint, and the replacement of all "dirty" tech with "clean" tech will cause probably more damage to the environment than it prevents.

[+] -6 points by repubsRtheprob (1209) 1 year ago

Join the fight to save our planet

http://www.addressclimatechange.com/

[-] 4 points by Ackhuman (-88) from Fairfax, VA 1 year ago

Join the fight by begging our masters? Fuck that. If you people really wanted to stop climate change, you would reduce your energy use, and get others to do the same. Signing a piece of paper means you are not serious.

[+] -5 points by repubsRtheprob (1209) 1 year ago

I disagree, petitions, phone calls, protests, boycotts, strikes, votes, cutting your own energy usage ALL is necessary.

Most of all encouraging all and any efforts, and absolutely not ridiculing any good efforts.

[-] 5 points by Ackhuman (-88) from Fairfax, VA 1 year ago

Petitions give all the feeling of having done something with none of the effort of actually doing anything. They are the favorite tool of slacktivists, and they produce complacency.

[+] -4 points by repubsRtheprob (1209) 1 year ago

You sound uninformed at best! More likely an anti 99%'r who is trying to discourage an activism.

Petitions work. They are one of many weapons we wield against the oligarchs.

http://occupywallst.org/forum/stop-cispa-save-the-internet-petition/

[-] 4 points by Ackhuman (-88) from Fairfax, VA 1 year ago

Maybe for dumb little causes like internet censorship laws that could actually pass with no consequence in reality (because their proposed measures are technically impossible/prohibitively expensive) they work.

But climate change is something we've known about since the 70s, and something that has been not only ignored, but actively denied by an organized, multi-million dollar effort. A petition is not going to do fuck in stopping climate change, and because of the nature of the problem, one that almost everyone is inherently detached from, those feelings of having done something are amplified in this case. Just like people who drive Priuses or buy carbon offsets, whatever miniscule help you've provided doesn't make up for the fact that you're probably not going to do the stuff that actually does fight climate change, like moving out of the suburbs, not using a car, becoming a vegan, and growing your own food.

And you think I sound like a moron?

[+] -5 points by repubsRtheprob (1209) 1 year ago

I have no interest in your unprovable claims of achievements, accolades, and intelligence.

To present all that on an anonymous internet forum is yet another measure of your ignorance.

The only issue I disagree with you on is your uninformed criticism, unfounded negativity of the historically proven powerful, valuable activist tool of petitioning.

And for you to focus so much energy attempting to stop petitioning rather than pushing the home grown food movement you claim to support is illustrative of your priorities.

You're 1st priority is stopping a critical activist method of growing our movement not your self proclaimed food growing movement.

So that is what makes you an anti-activist. Notwithstanding all your unproven claims.

[-] 5 points by Ackhuman (-88) from Fairfax, VA 1 year ago

I'm not spending a lot of energy on stopping petitioning. I wrote one short message about it.

You are the one acting childish, calling me a moron multiple times in every post, making assumptions about me that you have no business making, and following the recent comments so you can downvote my posts, regardless of their content.

Not only that, you talk about how negative I am, when I'm the one advocating positive direct action, and you're the one crying about what a negative, anti-activist moron I am, how I'm stupid and uneducated, how I'm a moron and an anti-activist, how I'm full of anger, how I'm a moron and an anti-activist, how I do a disservice to everything I'm involved in, how I'm a moron and an anti-activist, how I can't prove the things I said (which I can, by the way), and how the best "gateway" to activism is for people to type their name in a form on the interbutts to politely ask their glorious leaders to fix their problems for them.

You sound like you need a hug.

[+] -5 points by repubsRtheprob (1209) 1 year ago

Very few people can grow their own food in any appreciable amount. Millions of people have signed petitions and been added to mailing lists that are been used to create support for other issues, For raising money for more important issues/actions. Even the growing food movement can benefit by joining coalitions that can share their mailing lists to further your food growing plan.

Groups that gather many petition names are empowered to agitate for their given issue. The more names they gather the more leverage they have, the more petitions we sign, the more groups get more leverage.

You do not add to the success of your movement because you are filled with anger, spew hateful negativism, and are woefully uninformed.

You do a disservice to anything you get involved in with that level of pessimism. You are the anti-activist.

[-] 4 points by Ackhuman (-88) from Fairfax, VA 1 year ago

I'm woefully uneducated? That's funny, because I'm actually on a research team for another activist movement, have been invited to speak in a global consortium for sustainable societies, have a tremendous research library of relevant information, spend the entirety of my free time studying ecological and economic issues, and am generally regarded as someone who knows what the fuck he's talking about.

It seems that it's only when I get on this board that I get called an idiot and a moron, and dismissed out of hand by people who don't actually care to read or discuss anything I say. I'm filled with anger because shitheads like you respond in exactly this way to everything I write, and have dumb little groupies that upvote your posts and downvote mine.

You don't even know anything about me, other than I hate petitions. I do a disservice to anything I get involved in? That's a pretty sweeping generalization there, which I don't see any justification for making. Hey, but I'm sure it's going to score you lots of "cool points" on the boards here.

[+] -5 points by repubsRtheprob (1209) 1 year ago

Only the unenlightened thinks the right way to encourage more activism is by insulting the gateway actions.

We must encourage EVERY effort small and large. Small efforts WILL grow into larger efforts. That is the most valuable element of small efforts. We lose that possibility when morons like you are putting down those small efforts.

But that is what you want right? You just want to shut down any actions.

[-] 5 points by Ackhuman (-88) from Fairfax, VA 1 year ago

I can make a lot more people give a fuck about growing their own food than I can about signing some stupid fucking petition that's not going to do anything.

Petitions aren't a good gateway action because they're not effective and people either forget about signing or lose interest over time because nothing's happened.

Permaculture food farming not only ACTIVELY REDUCES ATMOSPHERIC CO2, unlike signing an online petition which uses huge amounts of energy, it RESULTS IN SOMETHING PHYSICAL that encourages people to keep doing it. Best of all, unlike signing an online petition on the privacy of your dumb little screen, people that AREN'T ALREADY ON YOUR SIDE SEE WHAT YOU'VE DONE and may change themselves for the better.

You have NO ARGUMENT here. Enjoy having your hoardes of dumb little friends follow you around downrating your opponents.

[+] -7 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 1 year ago

one is concerned about energy wasted to insignificant victories

[+] -6 points by repubsRtheprob (1209) 1 year ago

No hug needed. Perfectly happy taking apart those who discourage activism.

STOP putting down positive action.!!!

http://occupywallst.org/forum/grow-your-own-food-sign-petitions-pressure-all-pol/#comment-930547

[-] 4 points by Ackhuman (-88) from Fairfax, VA 1 year ago

Let's count up the negativity score.

You:

"yet another measure of your ignorance.

your moronic criticism

unfounded negativity

moronic anti-activist

You sir, are a fuckin moron

you do a disservice to anything you get involved in

You are the anti-activist.

You sound like a moron at best!

More likely an anti 99%'r

But That is what you want right moron?

Fuckin moron.

Only a moron thinks

You just want to shut down any actions.

and are woefully uneducated."

Me:

"Maybe for dumb little causes like internet censorship laws

A petition is not going to do fuck in stopping climate change

I can make a lot more people give a fuck about growing their own food than I can about signing some stupid fucking petition that's not going to do anything.

Petitions aren't a good gateway action because they're not effective and people either forget about signing or lose interest over time because nothing's happened.

Enjoy having your hoardes of dumb little friends follow you around downrating your opponents.

I'm filled with anger because shitheads like you respond in exactly this way to everything I write, and have dumb little groupies that upvote your posts and downvote mine."

Me: 6

You: 14

Also notice that half of my "negativity" was about petitions, while you focused all your energy on personal insults.

If there's anyone who's going to turn people away from activism, it's people that attack those who don't agree with them with insults. I.E., you.

[+] -7 points by repubsRtheprob (1209) 1 year ago

Oooo. I didn't see that one. thanks.

Sanders is on point as always, Boxer no slouch.

[-] 2 points by shoozTroll (17632) 1 year ago

Frankly?

I think they're all slouches.

These ones just put more good stuff on the table and fight the good cause harder than the othe(R)s. ( hee hee )

Stuff that never see's headlines.

Boxer is in Cali and should well know the value of a good publicist.

Why don't they employ one to put it there, on the front pages?

It will die in some committee somewhere and never see the glint of daylight.

Why?

[+] -5 points by repubsRtheprob (1209) 1 year ago

Very tough to get good laws passed. And no politician is 100%, but I agree more Dems (prog caucus members) are fighting for the 99%

[-] 2 points by 99nproud (2157) 1 year ago

That is an excellent documentary.

Thanks

[-] 0 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

Thanx & kinda sadly, I append herewith, fyi :

One step forward and two steps back OR the other way around ?! Time will tell !! However ...

tempus fugit ...

[-] 0 points by 99nproud (2157) 1 year ago

The fossil fuel corps are still some of the most powerful oligarchs on the planet. We must throw a bone to them while we increase the means (greentech) to eliminate them.

I don't like it but I accept the reality and the need. no one gives up power easily.

[-] 2 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

No More Bones For Oilygarchs !!!

ne quid nimis ...

[-] 1 points by 99nproud (2157) 1 year ago

Big oil must be the most corrupt plutocrats in the history of the world.

They've certainly done more damage than any other industry (along with corrupt bought off politicians)

[+] -6 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 1 year ago

co2 is in the air

plants convert sunlight, CO2 and water to make sugar

[-] 2 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

Photosynthesis ! Ain't it GREAT ?

fiat lux ...

[Removed]

[Removed]

[-] -1 points by DKAtoday (28242) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

These are dangerous times for our planet. Science can point the way to solutions.

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Reason #1: Fox News says Global Warming Over Because some of the most popular news outlets in the country mislead their audiences on climate science. For instance, that's Fox News running the headline "Global Warming Over."1 UCS research revealed that a whopping 93% of their climate change coverage is misleading or blatantly false. This is who gives millions of Americans their news. Match my gift >>

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  1. http://mediamatters.org/embed/static/video/2012/10/15/fnc-ff-20121015-gwstoppedb

The Union of Concerned Scientists puts rigorous, independent science to work to solve our planet's most pressing problems. Joining with citizens across the country, we combine technical analysis and effective advocacy to create innovative, practical solutions for a healthy, safe, and sustainable future.

[-] -1 points by DKAtoday (28242) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

In compliment - TWEET

DKAtoday ‏@DKAtoday

Take Action: Tell President Obama that natural gas is not a climate solution https://secure.sierraclub.org/site/Advocacy?cmd=display&page=UserAction&id=11493&s_src=710ZSCSH01#.UddbsYkWXAM.twitter

You Can NOT Have It Both Ways.

[-] -1 points by fanya9 (-2) 1 year ago

Yep climate "change", is happening. Just like it has for the past 4 billion years. But don't worry folks. Liberals know how to control Earths temperature. Just give them 100 years and a trillion dollars

[-] 3 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

Ignorance is bliss until it bites you on the ass !!! Have you opened a single link here ?!! I'm thinking not !

lux ?

[-] -1 points by WSmith (2091) from Cornelius, OR 1 year ago

OK, let's use all this "fiscal cliff" attention to expose the HUGE indirect costs, that we have to pay, for Big Fossil to do business. Jujitsu!!

We are massively late in fighting back against the Lewis Powell Memo, and all the subsequent actions and institutions, but better late than never!!!

Should have been off fossil fuel 30 years ago! Germany is using Green Tech to achieve negative energy costs and pollution!!! We have a lot of catching up to do!

[-] 3 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

I'm recommending A4C's links above and below. + re. Our Climate & Environment - It is still NOT too late !!! We can as a species arrest and if not reverse, then adapt !! I have hope, but I'm not naive ! Ergo :

e tenebris, lux ...

[-] 1 points by WSmith (2091) from Cornelius, OR 1 year ago

OK, now let's do something! And let's be smart about it!

The hidden costs of Big Fossil are a major cost to all of us!! Adding to our nation debt!! They want to cut spending before we go over a/the cliff!! Let's work it!

Let's get it out there. Let's hang it around the predominantly RepubliCons necks, make them address these costs before they go after SSI, Medicare, UI, etc.!!

They are NOT going to address Pollution Related Global Climate Change ANY other way! We have to use their energy to cut spending against them! Jujitsu!

[-] 3 points by Builder (4202) 1 year ago

Australia's govt imposed a carbon tax of $24 per tonne, and despite the oppositions' scare tactics regarding radical price increases across the board for everything, I've yet to see a single common commodity (electricity supply aside) that has effectively risen since the imposition of a carbon tax.

Low-income Australians have received financial assistance to cover any potential increases in costs for power, etc.

Good video here where our PM defends the carbon tax. I'm all for it.

Other videos on the same link giving the opposition's viewpoint.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-07-01/carbon-tax-takes-effect/4102830

[-] 1 points by WSmith (2091) from Cornelius, OR 1 year ago

And of course here in the good old US the rotten Big Fossil and RW political stooges declared war on Green thinking!! Raygun's noble removal of solar panels from the WH was an applauded victory. And the masses just said "Somebody hand me a cheeseburger" and a frosty can of Buttwiper!

OK, let's start from scratch!!

[-] 2 points by Builder (4202) 1 year ago

I was a bit dubious from the start.

I thought it might all be a scam to extract yet more money from the working and middle classes by the oligarchs.

But, I'm seeing daily the radical changes in our weather patterns, and I'm pretty sure you guys and gals would be too.

It might take a bit more physical destruction to convince the nay-sayers, but as George Carlin said several years ago, "If it takes massive destruction and extensive death to wake up the sleeping giant (America), then bring it on."

[-] 1 points by WSmith (2091) from Cornelius, OR 1 year ago

I lived in Southern California and witnessed Smog so bad that we could not see across the street, daily Smog alerts, then oil spills from the pumps that line the coast and wiped out the beeches, then DDT, then nightly Fruit Fly spraying. When Earth Day came along, we thought what took so long!? Still wondering.

Climate change should not be the reason/cause, it's too easy a target for exceptions. Pollution is the way to go. No more death and destruction, I say we just ram it through, the Neanderthals and Big Fossils will NEVER get it.

[-] 2 points by Builder (4202) 1 year ago

Ram it through? I like it.

The high price of gas at the pump here hasn't slowed the uptake of large passenger vehicles and SUVs.

Polluters like the Koch bros have basically bought the EPA, so I'm wondering how you could get around the so-called "protection" agency when they are paid hacks for industry.

[-] 1 points by WSmith (2091) from Cornelius, OR 1 year ago

Well, our military is going to need a mission pretty soon here!

I think it's (the military) our secret employment scheme.

[-] 0 points by WSmith (2091) from Cornelius, OR 1 year ago

OK, let's get this party started!!

Did you know that this is why we started Earth Day??

What was the RW reaction?? The Lewis Powell Memo!! Declaration of War!!

They (RW, RepubliCons, Big Fossil, etc.) declared war on Green Energy and Environmentalism!!

Everyone else (Germany, etc) thought it was a good idea and proceeded!!

Our biggest problem is ignorance, and I blame Big Media!!

WTFU People!! Going Green will keep us from going over the Fiscal and Global Warming Cliffs!!

[-] 2 points by SparkyJP (1646) from Westminster, MD 1 year ago

U R Right ! Green works but the fight against it is political spin and is lead by dinosaur energy industries that buy our government. I have limited means, but I did manage to install a solar preheat water tank in my house. It's not much, but it's a start. We have to change the culture and take the attitude " Your not a real man unless you produce your own power".

LET'S PARTY !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[-] 1 points by WSmith (2091) from Cornelius, OR 1 year ago

With You Brutha!

And let's hang the costs for dinosaur energy industries around the necks of their pols like tires and set them on fire, for all to see!!

[-] 2 points by Ache4Change (3280) 1 year ago

Robert Reich on 'Understanding The Fiscal Cliff in 2 minutes and 30 seconds' (to watch and the same to read) - http://www.nationofchange.org/understanding-fiscal-cliff-2-minutes-and-30-seconds-1354635555 & also see - http://www.nationofchange.org/environment + Keep Occupying The Issues!

[-] 1 points by WSmith (2091) from Cornelius, OR 1 year ago

Yes, a primer on the "cliff":

Understanding the Fiscal Cliff (In 2 Minutes and 30 Seconds) Robert Reich (In a better world, one where people made United demands, RR would anchor a daily Network News show.)

Published: Tuesday 4 December 2012

Democrats, here are eight principles to guide you in the coming showdown over the fiscal cliff: Continued: 1-10 of the original Dem strategy when this deal was made last year as a counter measure to the RepubliCon Budget Hostage Crisis, which resulted in the T-Potty Down Grade. But 1%-owned Cons don't mention ANY of this, favoring the "sky is falling" fear factor, and the 1%-owned MSM follows suit. Thank Darwin the Partisan Cons didn't Occupy the WH!!

BACK TO MY POINT: Let's use this phony spending controversy to address the giant expensive elephant in the room: "the HUGE indirect costs, that we have to pay, for Big Fossil to do business. Like pollution, wars, MIC, healthcare, etc...

Unite and Win!

[-] 2 points by Ache4Change (3280) 1 year ago

Occupy The Externalities! Reading here today, I was interested in and also draw your attention to, this comment under the 'Best Comments Today' header - http://occupywallst.org/forum/climate-change-is-happening-now-a-carbon-price-mus/#comment-888925 - which is on this thread. I particularly draw your attention to the final paragraph of the comment. Thanks for your reply and - 'Unite and Win' or 'Remain Divided and Keep Losing'! Occupy The Future!

[-] 2 points by WSmith (2091) from Cornelius, OR 1 year ago

Unite and Win

[-] 1 points by Ache4Change (3280) 1 year ago

Because divided we are conquered! Also - http://www.nationofchange.org/texas-quatar-us-does-nothing-protect-planet-1354977405 . We Occupy The Environment - we must never stop looking to care for it! :)

[-] 3 points by Ache4Change (3280) 1 year ago

'In One Pie Chart - Why Climate Change Deniers Have No Scientific Credibility' - http://www.nationofchange.org/why-climate-deniers-have-no-scientific-credibility-one-pie-chart-1354370613 . Occupy The Issues!

[-] 4 points by WSmith (2091) from Cornelius, OR 1 year ago

They will never be credible and, as descendants of the Flat Earth believers, they never were. Whether or not they are credible, you can be credible and wrong, is not the issue. The issue is that these wrongheaded, backward-thinking and closed-minded idiots are in our Government!!!

Get rid of these RW dunderheads before they get us all killed!!!

[-] 3 points by Ache4Change (3280) 1 year ago

'RW dunderheads' have been in control of our country since JFK & Clinton was just their most human face, lol. 'Jeffrey Sachs, Director of the Earth Institute at Columbia University, claims in "Why Poverty" that “there are many bought politicians in Washington.” The present day merchants and traders - the hedge fund managers, brokers, CEO’s of major corporations - are bought by the rich, such as David and Charles Koch. Estimated to be worth $62 billion, they have donated funds to over half the members of the Senate and the House of Representatives and ploughed millions of dollars into 230 university colleges to promote courses, which support their ‘free’ market ideology. A ‘free’ market, in name only, skewed off, which they and their cronies have overwhelming control.' - taken from the excellent article - http://www.nationofchange.org/inequality-and-poverty-america-style-1354976402 .

Also you may be interested in - http://www.nationofchange.org/blogs/lawrence-davidson/nationalism-vs-capitalism-1342887645 - and also - http://www.nationofchange.org/most-obdurate-bully-room-us-widely-criticized-role-climate-talks-1354984587 .

Never Give Up Trying To Take Down The Dunderheads! Occupy The Issues! Solidarity.

[-] 1 points by WSmith (2091) from Cornelius, OR 1 year ago

Yes, it's not a black and white world. And as a result of our pathetic participation in our great democracy, we have well intended politicians with no popular support who are forced to turn to money donors to stay in the game. We, through our obscene negligence, caused this corrupt state of affairs in our government. And Big$ LOVES it!!! But the overwhelming proliferation of man-made climate change detractors are GOPers who are a Cult whose Charlie Manson is the 1%. Know your enemy or you will squander your cause and efforts!

[-] 3 points by Ache4Change (3280) 1 year ago

No! When you say 'as a result of our pathetic participation in our great democracy, we have well intended politicians with no popular support who are forced to turn to money donors to stay in the game.' - that is an inversion of reality, imho and what pray tell, is so 'great' about our democracy?!

The politicians took the money, they sold us out, we see through their venal b.s. - so we desert them! Don't put the cart before the horse and start blaming the victims for their oppression. The people didn't desert the politicians first - they deserted us and opted for the ca$h! GOPers are beyond the pale and Dems, for the most part are duplicitous scum too.

Denis Kucinich and Bernie Sanders are the exceptions who prove the rule and we'll watch Elizabeth Warren now, with interest. The Corporations co-opt and control our govt. and this has to change but don't blame the dispossessed, disenfranchised and demoralised people of our country for the state of our 'democracy'. Apathy Is The Enemy & perhaps we can agree on that! Go Occupy!

[-] 1 points by WSmith (2091) from Cornelius, OR 1 year ago

If you fail to put oil in a Lamborghini and engine problems result, it's still a great car, it just needs maintenance to keep it running great. We have such a great democracy, that despite CU, Voter suppression, and RW biased media, we dodged a dirty bomb with Mit and Ryan.

So, Yes! We have rendered a great democracy to it's currently pathetic state, but it's so great it withstood all that the RW-1%-GOP could throw at it. It is further a testament to the Greatness of our democracy that it remains strong despite our massive neglect and naive denigration. A democracy is only as strong as its participation, it's not a spectators sport.

Don't generalize! The GOP is flat owned by Big$, there are DINOs or Blue Dogs who are fake Dems and really just RepubliCons. And there are Dems who are neglected by their "unreliable" base who have to take money to stay in politics, because Big$ has snatched up the democracy we have forsaken. We need to take it back, take it away from Big$ with our superior participation. Democracy and the politicians it puts in office serves those who show up. We have the lowest Voter turnout, Big$ has the highest! We abandoned our democracy, Big$ just picked it up and, without Votes, monetized it. Our fault, Big$ can't help being scumbags! That's what they do! What's a politician to do?? give up and let them rape and pillage at will?? Or take their money and live to fight another day? The money buys influence and propagandized Votes. If we just Voted as a civic duty, this would not be the problem you blindly wail about!!!

Sanders and Kucinich both support many other Dems and NO Cons!!! Corporations cannot co-opt what we occupy, that's why they have had free will with our government. Occupy democracy!! Occupy Government!! Occupy the Media!! Occupy the Vote!!!

[-] 2 points by Ache4Change (3280) 1 year ago

We currently ''occupy' duopoly, but you seem far too comfortable with that for my taste, but as you say - 'We have such a great democracy...', then perhaps I should not be too surprised at that. Sanders and Kucinich support those things which they believe is better for the 99% and we need many more like them. Yes, Occupy Democracy and The Vote! but...Let Us Give Up Corporate Controlled Duopoly!

[+] -7 points by DKAtoday (28242) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

So? - share circulate all of the good information that you come across here with a link back to here. I urge everyone to do this. If you have accounts already - then take advantage of using the social media links on the left side of your screen. Comments will already show-up in a google search for information - even if the search does not request OWS specific information. The more that people copy or tweet or e-mail or otherwise forward information from this site - the faster and wider the distribution becomes.


[-] 1 points by WSmith (1769) 0 minutes ago

Just like the Cons will never die because they are not of the living, TPTB will never downfall because they're so rich they can't, but they may have stand-ins stage a downfall if it helps them evade justice and soothes the unwashed masses.

And as nice as this board is, its relevance in the grand scheme of the American body politic is just a smidgen above nil. We have to spread and propagate and promote the site. ↥twinkle ↧stinkle permalink

[-] 0 points by WSmith (2091) from Cornelius, OR 1 year ago

I tweet and facefuck links to here, OWS; got a whole lot of new posters over the debates and election. How or what does it do when you hit Tweet here, and before or after you hit save? Aha: It Tweets the OP/Thread/Post not reply!

[+] -7 points by DKAtoday (28242) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

This is why we are here - this is also why the assholes are acting in desperation to make these moves against the public. BECAUSE THE PUBLIC IS BEGINNING TO AWAKEN AND GET INVOLVED

We are not too late - not yet - and we have only just started and look at how desperate TPTB are acting. They "THEY" will feed the fire that sees their downfall.


[-] 1 points by WSmith (1769) 5 minutes ago

Yes, the Class War that we're still losing!!!

This Michigan thing that has been roiling since Dem dummies pouted letting Cons sweep in in 2010 just disgusts me.

Right to Wage Slavery!!! ↥twinkle ↧stinkle permalink

[-] 0 points by WSmith (2091) from Cornelius, OR 1 year ago

Just like the Cons will never die because they are not of the living, TPTB will never downfall because they're so rich they can't, but they may have stand-ins stage a downfall if it helps them evade justice and soothes the unwashed masses.

And as nice as this board is, its relevance in the grand scheme of the American body politic is just a smidgen above nil. We have to spread and propagate and promote the site.

[+] -7 points by DKAtoday (28242) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

The war on unions a free press and whistle-blowers is a further extension of the corpoRAT program to rule.


[-] 2 points by WSmith (1762) 0 minutes ago

I think Chief Justice Roberts' head should roll over this, two rotten birds with one impeachment. I just wish Obama had stepped off the podium and bitch slapped Roberts when he smugly sat there and said "NO" when Obama called the crime what it was. (Now they don't attend, which I believe is a, telling, first!!)

I've signed that petition and all it's incarnations months and years ago as they have popped up, since the travesty was perpetrated.

I'm more concerned with the war against Unions and Progressive Media!! ↥twinkle ↧stinkle permalink

[-] 1 points by WSmith (2091) from Cornelius, OR 1 year ago

Yes, the Class War that we're still losing!!!

This Michigan thing that has been roiling since Dem dummies pouted letting Cons sweep in in 2010 just disgusts me.

Right to Wage Slavery!!!

[+] -7 points by DKAtoday (28242) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

PEOPLE - Support Move To Amend - as one good step in the right direction.

[-] 1 points by WSmith (2091) from Cornelius, OR 1 year ago

Yes, we need to end CU, but we seem to be able to work around it. Or perhaps it hasn't had time to get up to speed.

News Media, including the internet, are being attacked. That's where we find stuff out. If we don't know anything, ahem, CU will be moot.

[+] -6 points by DKAtoday (28242) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

Thing is - that though many hate it(?) - they as of yet do not recognize the source.


[-] 1 points by WSmith (1762) 2 minutes ago

The truth is even rank and file Cons hate CU.

In a way, it helps the left to have it in effect. Just like legalized abortion helps the right. In a crazy way, they may even cancel each other out!! ↥twinkle ↧stinkle permalink

[+] -7 points by DKAtoday (28242) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

True - communications are essential - and we must support efforts to protect our internet. The Move To Amend Campaign has made some very good progress in this last year and it is close to a critical mass in the push for success - and that success could be huge in addressing other roadblocks.

The success for Move to Amend may be that 1st step in breaking the back of corpoRAT rule.

[-] 2 points by WSmith (2091) from Cornelius, OR 1 year ago

I think Chief Justice Roberts' head should roll over this, two rotten birds with one impeachment. I just wish Obama had stepped off the podium and bitch slapped Roberts when he smugly sat there and said "NO" when Obama called the crime what it was. (Now they don't attend, which I believe is a, telling, first!!)

I've signed that petition and all it's incarnations months and years ago as they have popped up, since the travesty was perpetrated.

I'm more concerned with the war against Unions and Progressive Media!!

[-] 0 points by WSmith (2091) from Cornelius, OR 1 year ago

The truth is even rank and file Cons hate CU.

In a way, it helps the left to have it in effect. Just like legalized abortion helps the right. In a crazy way, they may even cancel each other out!!

[-] -2 points by DKAtoday (28242) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

Forecast the Facts (info@forecastthefacts.org)

Thank you for calling on CNBC to stop spreading climate denial and start reporting the facts! Over 27,000 people have signed on so far. And on Friday, Joe Kernen attacked us on his show, saying those who acknowledge climate change are “enviro-socialists” in a “bona fide cult”.

This campaign is exactly what Forecast the Facts is about: empowering Americans to hold public figures accountable for climate denial. CNBC can’t be considered a legitimate news source while one of their hosts calls climate science a "cult." But Kernen’s statements alone aren’t going to discredit CNBC. We need more great folks like you to stand up for accurate climate information.

Can you help reach our goal of 30,000 signatures by forwarding the email below to 5 of your friends?

Or click here to share online. Thank you for helping build this important campaign, and welcome to Forecast the Facts.

  • Emily

CNBC didn't air one minute of President Obama's climate speech, continuing a disturbing pattern of ignoring and denying climate science. Sign the petition to demand CNBC stop denying climate change immediately.

On Tuesday, CNBC was the only cable network that refused to run even one minute of the President’s major climate change speech. Sadly, this is just the latest example of the network's egregious climate reporting. A recent Media Matters study found that over half of CNBC's climate science coverage has cast doubt on climate science since the beginning of 2013.

This is the kind of climate coverage we expect from Fox News, not a subsidiary of NBC.

In the wake of the president's speech, it's a crucial time to show that Americans urgently support regulations to reduce carbon pollution, and that we won't stand for climate change denial on mainstream outlets like CNBC.

If enough viewers speak out, we can force CNBC to change its tune, or risk a major hit to its journalistic credibility. That's why we are joining with our allies at Environmental Action to demand CNBC end its climate denial immediately.

Join us by telling CNBC to report the facts, not misinformation about climate science.

Since January, CNBC has featured a parade of climate deniers like Joe Kernen, co-host of Squawk Box, who compared climate scientists to "high priests" whose work should not be trusted; William Happer, who chairs the fossil-fuel funded George C. Marshall Institute and wrote “how little correlation warming has with concentrations of carbon dioxide”; host Larry Kudlow, who says that "climate change is not man-made” and could be caused by the sun; and contributor Rick Santelli who refers to climate change as a “myth”.

Tuesday was a major day in the history of the United States, as President Obama unveiled his second term climate plans. The speech had some positive elements, like a plan to regulate emissions from power plants, and real problems—like a continued embrace of the climate-destroying all-of-the-above energy policy. But the fact that a major business network like CNBC didn’t even see fit to run the speech, and continues to deny the basic reality of climate change, is a sign of how far our country is from the political consensus on the need for action.

We can change that, and CNBC is a great place to start. Right-wing outlets like Fox News have long given up the semblance of honest journalism. But CNBC remains a legitimate journalistic outlet under the banner of NBCUniversal. NBC is the network of journalistic legends like Tom Brokaw, Tim Russert, and David Brinkley. They have a reputation to uphold, and climate change denial is a stain on that reputation.

But there's only one thing that will force CNBC to change its tune: a massive outcry from everyday folks like us who refuse to stand for one more day of climate denial.

Please join us and insist that CNBC stop Joe Kernen and other on-air personalities from reporting climate change denial and to start reporting the facts.

Factually yours, Emily, Brad, Daniel, Claire, and the rest of the Forecast the Facts Team

MORE INFORMATION

Report: Climate Change is Bad for Business, Media Matters http://act.forecastthefacts.org/go/215?t=7&akid=111.92259.Pqhn3C

Video: Meet the CNBC Figures Dismissing Climate Science, Media Matters http://act.forecastthefacts.org/go/216?t=9&akid=111.92259.Pqhn3C

Hayward: Crisis in Climate Science, The Kudlow Report
 http://act.forecastthefacts.org/go/217?t=11&akid=111.92259.Pqhn3C

Forecast the Facts is a grassroots organization that empowers people to fight climate change denial and promote accurate information about the climate crisis. You can follow us on Twitter, and like us on Facebook. Help us end climate denial once and for all by contributing here.


Added to the letter: "Pull your heads out of the sand - take a good long look at REALITY. 97% of Climate Scientist's ARE NOT WRONG."

BTW - TWEET

DKAtoday ‏@DKAtoday

.@CNBC tell @JoeSquawk to stop ignoring #climatechange & report the facts! via @forecastfacts & @enviroaction http://act.forecastthefacts.org/sign/stop_cnbc_climate_denial_2?referring_akid=.92259.TDCYPO&source=twitter

[-] -2 points by DKAtoday (28242) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

Just two weeks ago, President Obama delivered a landmark speech where he outlined what his administration will do to make good on his promise to place climate change at the top of his second-term agenda. It was a call to action for his administration and for the nation, but he also reminded us that the Senate has a part to play:

"The woman that I've chosen to head up the EPA, Gina McCarthy, she's worked -- (applause) -- she's terrific. Gina has worked for the EPA in my administration, but she's also worked for five Republican governors. She's got a long track record of working with industry and business leaders to forge common-sense solutions. Unfortunately, she's being held up in the Senate... The Senate should confirm her without any further obstruction or delay." - President Obama, June 25, 2013

Tell Sen. Al Franken and Sen. Amy Klobuchar that America heard the president's rallying cry and we're ready to move forward on climate -- starting with putting the right person in charge of the EPA.

The cornerstone of the president's climate plan is a new set of EPA safeguards against climate-disrupting carbon emissions from coal plants. The best way to make sure those protections are put into place quickly is to make sure the EPA is fully staffed and ready to get to work.

And that's not all. The EPA is also considering historic protections against coal waste in our water, along with other safeguards to protect our air, water, and communities from big polluters. They'll also advise the president as he decides whether or not to approve the dangerous Keystone XL pipeline.

It's a lot to take on, but with her long track record and results-oriented approach, there's no doubt that Gina McCarthy can hit the ground running. She's ready to shoulder these responsibilities. Are your senators ready to shoulder theirs?

Remind your senators that Minnesota is ready for an EPA leader who will fight for clean air, clean water, and a healthy environment!

From historic new fuel efficiency standards that save us money at the pump to life-saving safeguards against soot, mercury and other toxics, Gina McCarthy has been on the front lines of our most critical public health battles. She has proven that she has what it takes to stand up for clean air, safe water, and the health of our communities. Now that Congress has returned to Washington, it's time for the Senate to confirm her as the new head of the EPA.

Thanks for everything you do to protect the environment,

Mary Anne Hitt Beyond Coal Campaign Director

P.S. Six letters are better than one. Forward a copy of this message to five of your friends and family and let them know how they can help confirm a clean-air champion. Or spread the word on social media with the share buttons below.

Share this page on Facebook

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Share this page with other services

Sierra Club | 85 2nd St San Francisco, CA 94105 | membership.services@sierraclub.org

[-] -2 points by DKAtoday (28242) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

In just a few days, more than 18,000 of us have called on CNBC to stop spreading climate denial and start reporting the facts! In response, CNBC's worst climate denier, Squawk Box host Joe Kernen, lashed out on Twitter at Forecast the Facts members, writing "pathetic. sheep" and and doubting that the climate could change in just 150 years. To see Joe's tweets for yourself, click here.

Kernen is clearly paying attention. Now we need to get CNBC's executives to start responding too. We've set a goal of 20,000 signatures before we deliver our petition in person. Please help us get there by signing this petiton with our friends at Forecast the Facts.

Thank you for helping build this important campaign.

  • Jesse

Tell CNBC no airtime for Climate Hot AirHowever we felt about the content of President Obama's speech on climate, we can all agree it was newsworthy. Yet CNBC was the only cable network that refused to run even one minute of the president’s major climate change speech!

Sadly, this is just the latest in a long line of bad climate reporting by CNBC. A recent Media Matters study found that More than half of CNBC's climate science coverage has cast doubt on climate science since the beginning of 2013.* This kind of biased, unscientific reporting inaccurately tells people that there is disagreement about climate change's reality, and its impacts.

It is outrageous that any news network would refuse to cover climate change news**. Real progress is improbable as long as mainstream outlets like CNBC are denying climate science, and they won't change until viewers speak out.

Tell CNBC: report the facts, not misinformation about climate science.

Since January, the network has featured a parade of climate deniers like William Happer, who chairs the fossil-fuel funded George C. Marshall Institute and wrote “how little correlation warming has with concentrations of carbon dioxide”, host Larry Kudlow***, who says that "climate change is not man-made” and could be caused by the sun, and contributor Rick Santelli who calls climate change a “myth”. Tinfoil hats not included.

An American president announcing major climate plans is big news for the planet, and all of us who live on it. The speech had some positive elements, like a plan to regulate emissions from power plants, and real problems—like a continued embrace of a climate-destroying all-of-the-above energy policy. But the fact that a major business network like CNBC didn’t even see fit to run the speech is a sign of how our media outlets are abdicating their responsibility on the most vital issue of our day.

We can change that, and CNBC is a great place to start. Right-wing outlets like Fox News have long given up on even the semblance of honest journalism. But CNBC remains a legitimate journalistic outlet under the banner of NBC, the network of Tom Brokaw and Tim Russert and sister network to the more progressive MSNBC. They have a reputation to uphold, and climate change denial is a stain on that reputation.

There’s only one thing will force CNBC to change its tune: a massive outcry from everyday folks like us who refuse to stand for one more day of climate denial.

Please join us and our friends at Forecast the Facts and insist that CNBC stop reporting climate change denial and start reporting the facts.

Factually yours, Jesse Bacon, Environmental Action

** Report: Climate Change is Bad for Business, Media Matters

*** Hayward: Crisis in Climate Science, The Kudlow Report



TWEET

DKAtoday ‏@DKAtoday

.@CNBC tell @JoeSquawk to stop ignoring #climatechange & report the facts! via @forecastfacts & @enviroaction http://act.forecastthefacts.org/sign/stop_cnbc_climate_denial_2?referring_akid=.92259.TDCYPO&source=twitter

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

''Climate Of Doubt'' - A PBS 'Frontline' Documentary, which I again recommend to all here :

Thanx for your comprehensive comment and links & this doc. is reposted in compliment.

e tenebris, lux ...

[-] 0 points by DKAtoday (28242) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

Climate of Doubt - Yes a very good Frontline Doc - though it makes you wish you could climb through the screen and start laying about with a 2x4.

http://video.pbs.org/video/2295533310/

[-] -2 points by DKAtoday (28242) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

Some climate deniers deserve a tin foil hat for their nuttiness. Oklahoma Rep. Jim Bridenstine, on the other hand, needs a tin foil Snuggie.

Jim_Bridenstine_EM.pngLast week, the Republican rookie rep gave a speech on the House floor demanding President Obama apologize to his constituents for funding research on climate change.*

This -- despite the fact that 97 percent of all scientific studies on climate change conclude that the earth is getting hotter -- and faster -- than it would due to normal climate cycles . . . that the increase is thanks to man-made carbon emissions from energy and industrial production . . . and that unless we make serious cuts to these emissions right away we will see disastrous climate consequences worldwide this century that will be irreversible for more than a thousand years.

Unfortunately, Bridenstine is part of a large contingent of tin foil hat-wearing members of Congress who deny the overwhelming consensus of scientists worldwide, and unless we change that we will not get any action to reverse global warming. Please sign our petition today demanding Bridenstine and the rest admit climate change is real and, more importantly, to start doing something about it.

Scientists are panicking, which is not their nature, because they've spent two decades warning us that global warming is happening and will have dire consequences, yet the world's elected leaders have done almost nothing about it. Just six years ago, a worldwide conference on climate change made a range of predictions about temperature increases and the impact on sea levels, and today scientists are saying that our collective inaction has turned their worst-case scenarios from 2007 into the most likely scenario.

So what is that scenario? A six degree Celsius average increase in temperatures worldwide, a melting of almost all global sea ice and glaciers, and a sea level rise as high as 7 metres, spawning larger and more frequent hurricanes and extreme weather in places not used to seeing such events.

It's likely that Bridenstine is too busy being wined and dined by fossil fuel lobbyists to actually read any of the science, and it is probable that he could care less what the scientists have to say. Which is why he was able to say this with a straight face on the House floor Tuesday: “Even climate change alarmists admit the number of hurricanes hitting the U.S. and the number of tornado touchdowns have been on a slow decline for over 100 years."

Uh, no. In fact that is the exact opposite of what scientists are saying. For example, Tom Karl, director of the National Climatic Data Center, says this: “What we can say with confidence is that heavy and extreme precipitation events often associated with thunderstorms and convection are increasing and have been linked to human-induced changes in atmospheric composition.”

In a survey of 29,000 scientists published this year, less than 1 percent denied that humans were the primary cause of climate change.

Despite all these fact, Bridenstine thinks Obama should apologize for spending money on research into what scientists say will change life for every living creature on the planet in ways that make Superstorm Sandy and the Oklahoma tornado look tame.

Please sign today and let Congress know America wants to end the climate silence and starting addressing climate change.

Thank you for helping save the planet,

Colin Whitworth Environmental Action

[-] -2 points by DKAtoday (28242) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

AHhhh - I see the climate change ( global warming ) denying shills are in the house - Or is that just U trashy-can?

[-] -2 points by DKAtoday (28242) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

Please stop fracking - do not be silent.

The Obama administration just released its first major fracking policy--the Bureau of Land Management’s proposed rules for fracking on 600 million acres of public land. And it’s even worse than we feared.1

In a major concession to the fracking industry and its lobbying efforts, the proposed rules are even weaker than previous drafts of the rules.2 3 And they do nothing to close Dick Cheney’s infamous “Halliburton loophole,” which exempts fracking from key parts of the Safe Drinking Water Act and the Clean Water Act.4

Of course, it’s become clear that there is simply no safe way to frack. So even worse than the specific concessions made to industry in the draft regulations is the assumption that fracking should be allowed to continue on federal lands despite overwhelming evidence that it endangers our air, water and climate.

The BLM is accepting public comments on its proposed fracking rules for 30 days. We need to let the administration know that these rules are totally inadequate. The administration needs to ban fracking on public lands – not cave to the industry and endanger our health and safety.

Submit a public comment telling the Bureau of Land Management: Ban fracking on federal lands. Click here to submit a public comment.

An area of federal land larger than the entire state of Florida is currently under lease for oil and gas extraction, so this is one of the most important fracking policy decisions the Obama administration will make.5

Unfortuanately, every indication is that the White House is still putting the interests of oil and gas companies before the health and safety of American communities. The proposed regulations let the industry keep secret the toxic chemicals it injects underground by designating them as "trade secrets" without oversight from the BLM. The rules allow the industry to store contaminated waste in massive open pits, which can release dangerous air emissions and leak toxins into groundwater. And the rules do nothing to prevent the industry from fracking wells right next to homes and schools.

And of course, the harm fracking does to local communities is compounded by its significant contribution to the climate crisis.6 As the concentration of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere passes 400 parts per million--well beyond what many scientists say is safe--the Obama administration should be working to keep its promise to confront climate change, not encouraging the extraction of vast new reserves of dirty oil and gas.

Submit a public comment telling the Bureau of Land Management: Ban fracking on federal lands. Click here to submit a public comment.

Thanks for fighting fracking.

Zack Malitz, Campaign Manager CREDO Action from Working Assets

Take action now ►

  1. Steven Mufson, "Obama administration issues draft fracking regulations," Washington Post, May 16, 2013

  2. Matthew McFeeley, "Obama Administration Caves To Fracking Industry in New Proposed Rules," NRDC Switchboard, May 16, 2013

  3. Mike Soraghan, "White House huddled with industry before changes to BLM fracking rule," EnergyWire, April 12, 2013

  4. Lauren Pagel and Lisa Sumi, "Loopholes for Polluters," Earthworks, May 16, 2011

  5. Amy Mall, "More than six percent of U.S. already leased for oil and gas: new NRDC analysis," NRDC Switchboard, February 26, 2013

  6. Joe Romm, "IEA’s 'Golden Age of Gas Scenario' Leads to More Than 6°F Warming and Out-of-Control Climate Change," ThinkProgress, June 7, 2011


Personalize your comment


What I added:

To Continue May I add: Fossil Fuel is destroying our environment - poisoning our air, land and water. The poisons released are causing disease and death - cancer is sky rocketing in the population - and fossil fuel has caused it's share. It is also destroying our climate = Global Warming Climate Change = Turbulent weather - Storms rain and snow - tornadoes - floods - and drought.

The President says he agrees with the climate science scientist's - That We have to stop using/burning fossil fuel. The climate scientists say we are at a point in the pollution level and the earth's warming that the process could go out of all control - we have next to none for control now - only thing we can do - is to stop polluting and let the atmosphere slowly recover. The scientists say we are about to set off a chain reaction - where our stopping pollution will not matter as the earth will finish the job.

Now considering what science is telling us and the president saying that he believes the science.

What is the president doing - opening up more land for fossil fuel extraction?

It is INSANE. 1st of all We do not need it ( we are in a glut ). Besides having alternative technology Clean/Green technology for Power generation - heating - cooling - to power industry as well as for taking care of All our transportation needs on land sea and air.

We also are currently in a market GLUT situation for fossil fuel. We do not need more at this time. It is being exported - for profit - not need - notice also - we have so much right now that they "fossil fuel" is exporting - but the cost to the consumer keeps going up - does that not defy economics? But that last is still irrelevant as we can not continue using fossil fuel. Science Tells Us - The President agrees and also Tells us.

So why is more land being opened up to extract fossil fuel? It is killing us with poisons already - poisons in the Air Land and Water - add in the fact that the global warming process is about to go out of control. ASK YOURSELF - Why are we continuing to go after what is not needed going after it for profit purposes only. When it has already been declared that we can not continue doing this.

Get real - stop fracking now - seriously commit to implementing alternative energy - CLEAN ENERGY - Spend stimulus money there - NOW - and get people back to work while saving the planet.

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

''Scientists Say Humans Are Causing Global Climate Change'' :

''A study shows that more than 97% of scientists believe humans are the main drivers of climate change.'' & thanx for all your input of info and links on this thread. Solidarity ~*~

non nobis solum ...

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

Ralph Nader : ''Perils of the Keystone XL Pipeline Confront Obama'' ;

''McKibben’s army has thrown its non-violent troops against the Keystone XL Pipeline and tar sands exploitation that will devastate an area in Alberta the size of Florida. This project has been called a massive body blow to the Planet Earth by NASA’s climate scientist James Hansen, who has been arrested several times in the protests.

''Obama approving the pipeline makes it happen. While promising collateral offsets by Obama is nothing more than the Obamamania of hope. We know how far hope travelled since Obama became president and never had to worry about political competitors on the ballot, including third parties, attracting votes to environmental and other progressive causes. There are lessons that McKibben may have to explain to his 350.org followers.'' & thanx for your highly relevant, excellent but troubling link.

tempus fugit ...

[-] 0 points by shoozTroll (17632) 1 year ago

and of course, there's the CATO/Koch libe(R)tarian reaction.

400ppm?

It'z good for plantz.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/05/19/1209140/-Big-thinking-Cato-Institute-400ppm-haz-got-what-plants-crave

So every thing is OK?

[-] 1 points by JackPulliam3rd (205) 1 year ago

400 ppm is insane. Anything going on in Detroit to help out? Seems like the US auto industry has to be carrying the lion's share of blame here. Thank god i haven't owned a car in decades.

[-] -1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 1 year ago

You're insane.

That's the truth about it.

[-] 2 points by JackPulliam3rd (205) 1 year ago

Mother Earth sheds a tear every time a new car rolls off an assembly line.

Please don't make Mother Earth cry.

[-] 1 points by JackPulliam3rd (205) 1 year ago

somebody just got themselves a twinkle!

[-] 0 points by shoozTroll (17632) 1 year ago

http://www.occupy.com/article/how-big-oil-and-gop-subverted-american-democracy

Wake up and smell the puke.

Scrape off the lumps, the rest will dry.

[-] 0 points by shoozTroll (17632) 1 year ago

I'll probably get yelled at, but some among us aren't afraid to call 'em as they see 'em.

http://www.occupy.com/article/how-big-oil-and-gop-subverted-american-democracy

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

No, no need for any yelling lol & thanx for the great links & ergo :

spero meliora ...

[-] 0 points by shoozTroll (17632) 1 year ago

Where's the deniers?

They seem to have changed tactics.

[-] 0 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

They're all buying Guns and Ammo ; having Tea Parties ; watching Fox-Snewzzz and sucking Kochs !!!

As for ''tactics'' - they have none !! Only ass exposing, head in sand, 'lemming-meets-ostrich' behaviour !

verum ex absurdo ...

[-] 0 points by shoozTroll (17632) 1 year ago

It's like playing whack a mole around here........................:)

Bop 'em on the head about one thing and they disappear and pop up elsewhere on another subject, under another nameplate.

[-] -3 points by DKAtoday (28242) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

Got to spread the word. Keeping this post active while sharing the information out on twitter and in responding to active groups. Well it's a natural good thing to do.

Keep-on Keeping-on

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

"Climate Change : Human Disaster Looms, Claims New Research'' by Fiona Harvey :

''Forecast global temperature rise of 4C a calamity for large swaths of planet even if predicted extremes are not reached'' & yep, ''Got to spread the word. Keep-on Keeping-on'' & solidarity.

ni quid nimis ...

[-] 1 points by wittlelittlecloud (-83) 1 year ago

Why do you think Americans stopped caring about science?

[-] 0 points by shoozTroll (17632) 1 year ago

You're still avoiding those questions. Or did you forget?

Welp.

I'll give at least a partial answer to yours, in hopes that you will come clean and answer mine.

http://www.occupy.com/article/how-big-oil-and-gop-subverted-american-democracy

[-] -3 points by DKAtoday (28242) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

Tweet

DKAtoday ‏@DKAtoday

Climate change: human disaster looms, claims new research http://gu.com/p/3gxxg/tw via @guardian View summary


http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2013/may/19/climate-change-meltdown-unlikely-research

He said most of the recent warming had been absorbed by the oceans but this would change as the seas heat up. The thermal expansion of the oceans is one of the main factors behind current and projected sea level rises.

[-] 0 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

Deep sea methane hydrate release due to both warming and altered salinity causing gyre shift is an aspect of the potential feedback loop [ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methane_clathrate ] to consider.

fiat lux ...

[-] -2 points by DKAtoday (28242) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

De-Gassing the Soft Drink Biz

This week the Sierra Club launched its Future Fleet campaign to clean up corporate vehicle fleets, starting with PepsiCo, Coca-Cola, and Dr Pepper Snapple Group, which together own and operate more than 100,000 vehicles.

Oil use accounts for more than 40 percent of our climate-disrupting pollution, and the biggest customers for oil are large companies guzzling huge amounts of fuel -- including oil from tar sands refineries. By getting these three corporate fleets to prioritize fuel efficiency and get off of tar sands oil, we can reduce the demand for oil, curb emissions, increase transportation choices, and slow the development of tar sands.

Send an email to the heads of Pepsi, Coke, and Dr. Pepper and tell them to slash their oil use.

[-] -2 points by beautifulworld (20523) 1 year ago

"Record rise in CO2 emissions sounds climate change alarm" The Guardian, March 8, 2013.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2013/mar/08/hawaii-climate-change-second-greatest-annual-rise-emissions

"Hopes for 'safe' temperature increase within 2C fade as Hawaii station documents second-greatest emissions increase."

[-] 1 points by beautifulworld (20523) 1 year ago

Again, -5 in 30 minutes. The truth hurts, doesn't it? Oh, gee, it might cost you a little money to save the freaking earth! You sickos.

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

Yes. "The truth hurts" those who would rather we we remained ignorant, with our heads in the sand and our asses in the air but these Corporate Shills and their stinkling lickspittles on this forum will only drive us to renewed efforts for a 'bw' fit for all. Thus, further to your excellent and highly recommended link - in due course, please also consider :

e tenebris, lux ...

[-] 2 points by beautifulworld (20523) 1 year ago

"Toxic fracking fluid routinely spills during transport. Wells can accidentally communicate underground, leading to a blowout of fracking fluids through one well as they are pumped through another."

"Fracking fluids and gas can migrate into the water table and contaminate the water supply. Methane in the water supply is believed to be the cause of spontaneous house fires. The injection of fracking waste into storage wells causes earthquakes. Open pools that store fracking waste can rupture and leak into waterways. Pipelines that carry the natural gas can rupture and leak or catch fire."

"...among the chemicals known to be used in fracking, one third are known carcinogens and others are neurotoxins and reproductive toxicants which sabotage pregnancy and interfere with hormones. But this isn't the whole of it: the fluids that go down the wells also return to the surface carrying heavy metals, radiation, radon and organic compounds from the shale with them. Radon causes lung cancer, and benzene, an organic compound, causes leukemia. As Steingraber describes it, these substances are not a threat when they are locked deep in the ground, but fracking is "fracturing the lid on Pandora's Box."

And, to answer, Chomsky, um, no.

[-] 0 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

"Returning carbon money straight to the people – rather than turning it into windfall profits for corporations or tax revenue for government – also features in a new bill introduced this month by Senators Bernie Sanders (Ind-VT) and Barbara Boxer (D-CA), which would levy a carbon fee and recycle 60% of the money to the public." - excerpted from :

I append the above article because it is highly relevant to the forum-posted article and to this thread, if not as directly to your reply above but thank you for the very relevant excerpts re. 'Fracking Fluids' - an aspect of Fracking which TPTB are rather desperate to conceal. Just how stupid has one got to be to poison our water and land so that we can release ancient hydro-carbons, that Nature has sequestered and stored away, straight back into the atmosphere - purely in pursuit of Short Term Private Profit ? To answer my own rhetorical question in the style of your answer to Chomsky ... ummm .. very !!

minina maxima sunt ...

[-] 2 points by beautifulworld (20523) 1 year ago

"The political appeal of these proposals goes beyond protecting family incomes. They also face up to a fundamental moral question: Who are the rightful owners of the environment? Who should be paid for the privilege of using it, subject to limits we set to safeguard it for future generations?"

And, I'll post it again just to be annoying to TPTB:

"Record rise in CO2 emissions sounds climate change alarm" The Guardian, March 8, 2013.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2013/mar/08/hawaii-climate-change-second-greatest-annual-rise-emissions

"Hopes for 'safe' temperature increase within 2C fade as Hawaii station documents second-greatest emissions increase."

[-] -2 points by DKAtoday (28242) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

Lovely what natural gas wants/is to do(ing) to us - Hey? With the F'n governments blessing no less.

INSANITY

[-] 3 points by beautifulworld (20523) 1 year ago

That's the only word for it.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (28242) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

When did it become a prerequisite for office?

[-] -1 points by DKAtoday (28242) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

Phoenix - Yep in trouble deep ( immediate trouble ) as are other arid states/cities.

With changing to alternative power sources and dumping fossil fuel (if it all happened today) - these states are gonna have to do something anyway for a very long time to supply needed water. Open sources are dwindling.

[-] 3 points by inclusionman (7064) 1 year ago

Just read a story on a scientific plan to eliminate all fossil fuels for NYS in 18 years!!

http://occupywallst.org/forum/the-99-can-force-all-states-to-adopt-this-plan-to-/

Imagine that!!

[-] 0 points by DKAtoday (28242) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

Good story - GR8 Goal. Just think how much faster that that could be accomplished Nation Wide - If everyone supported it.

[-] 3 points by inclusionman (7064) 1 year ago

It is definitely the kind of concept we can build a growing movement to pressure for it's implementation.

It's a concrete plan we can put our finger on, that we can point to, that we can spread around to excite greens everywhere.

[-] 0 points by DKAtoday (28242) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

Not just greens - everyone - the benefits are tangible for ALL.

[-] 3 points by inclusionman (7064) 1 year ago

You are right, I stand corrected. And that is a strength of the plan. It can appeal to a broad group of people.

I am excited about it. Of course there wasn't a whole lot of coverage, and that is a ig challenge.

[-] 0 points by DKAtoday (28242) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

Coverage - YEP

That is where good people on the internet come in - because there is a whole hell of a lot to be fixed before we have "real" full coverage full access news again.

[-] 3 points by inclusionman (7064) 1 year ago

We are the choir preaching to each other, but I know the choir is growing. With every little effort we each make.

Thanks for listening, responding, believing, & fighting.

[-] 0 points by DKAtoday (28242) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

We are the choir preaching to each other

When we are here.

but I know the choir is growing.

Due to the fact that we reach out from here.

Thank you for your efforts.

[-] -2 points by danya8 (-98) 1 year ago

Self loathing liberals, like Hansen, and his sheep following his big LIE,suffering anguish and hand-wringing, for living on planet Earth. Rationalizing we must suffer for our sins of ....existing.

The answer?? (one that only a liberals could concoct). Levying the biggest tax ever in the history of America. A never ending FAKE tax, buying invisible credits, to to save the planet.

Liberals shriek. "PLEASE...PLEASE..TAX me again and again for my sins"

[-] -1 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

Thanx for your brain fart !! Here's one just for you and your 'head in the sand ; ass in the air' ilk :

e tenebris, lux ...

[-] -2 points by Einsatzgruppen1 (-56) 1 year ago

And if it doesn't?

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

I find your moniker offensive !!! You could NOT have picked it without knowing about it !! Shame On You !

For your added information - be advised that I don't really engage with retarded, raving right-wing racists !

Gnothi Seauton ...

[-] -3 points by kendallone (-28) 1 year ago

I find your ideology and opinions offensive,shame on you!!

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

"Perils of the Keystone XL Pipeline Confront Obama", by Ralph Nader :

Keep bumping my threads & I'll keep adding relevant links - hence thanx for your reactionary, reflexive and retarded response. Why the defence of 'Nazi Boy' ? Are you one and the same ? So - you find my "ideology and opinions" offensive, do you ? Really ?! So - WTF are you doing here, you stupid cunt ?!! 'Offensive' enough for you ?!!!

nosce te ipsum ..

[-] 2 points by shoozTroll (17632) 1 year ago

This thread got short shift. I think you will like the added link to what piping dilbit is all about.

http://occupywallst.org/forum/fracking-a-new-documentary-pt-i/

[-] -3 points by kendallone (-28) 1 year ago

Yeah right,you and your bullshit relevant? Resorting to name calling? How predictable.

[-] -1 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

It's "relevant" enough for you to comment, right dickhead ?! Did you also "predict" this :

It will be noted by readers that you totally fail to disassociate yourself from 'Nazi Boy' ! Are you and s/he one and the same ?!! Good luck re. extracting your certainly empty head, from your probably fat (..x..) !!!

et temet nosce ...

[-] -3 points by kendallone (-28) 1 year ago

I'm commenting on you not your irrelevant bullshit. Comprehension issues??

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

You're spewing 'brain farts' NOT commenting, numbnuts !!! "Comprehension issues" ?!! Also it is not so "irrelevant" that you can ignore it though is it - shit-for-brains ?! Are you representating the intellect level of 'denialists' ? If you can read, digest and think at the same time, try :

e tenebris, lux ...

[-] -2 points by beautifulworld (20523) 1 year ago

"Evidence from Siberian caves suggests that a global temperature rise of 1.5C could see permafrost thaw over a large area of Siberia.

A study shows that more than a trillion tonnes of the greenhouse gases CO2 and methane could be released into the atmosphere as a result.

An international team has published details in the journal Science."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-21549643

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

"As permafrost covers 24% of the land surface of the Northern Hemisphere, significant thawing could affect vast areas and release (billions of tonnes) of carbon. This has huge implications for ecosystems in the region, and for aspects of the human environment." said Dr Anton Vaks from the University of Oxford and extracted from your excellent link. So, please also calmly consider that :

"Conspiracies against the public don't get much uglier than this. As The Guardian revealed last week ....

.. two secretive organisations working for US billionaires have spent $118m to ensure that no action is taken to prevent manmade climate change. While inflicting untold suffering on the world's people, their funders have used these opaque structures to ensure that their identities are never exposed."

"The two organisations - "The Donors' Trust" and "The Donors' Capital Fund" - were set up as political funding channels for people handing over $1m or more. They have financed 102 organisations which either dismiss climate science or downplay the need to take action. The large number of recipients creates the impression of many independent voices challenging climate science. These groups, working through the media, mobilising gullible voters and lobbying politicians, helped to derail Obama's cap and trade bill and the climate talks at Copenhagen. Now they're seeking to prevent the US president from trying again."

I excerpt the above in reply to you bw, from the following highly recommended article :

I have a very big problem with undemocratic, secretive, corporate, right-wing 'Libertopian' types like the Donor's Trust [ http://donorstrust.org/ ] & as to the 'why?' - well it's all very well encapsulated in :

Which describes the 'Libertarian' individuals and groups behind a well organized effort to attack science by actually undermining scientists & to try to unseat politicians - who say they believe there is current climate change caused by human activity.

This excellent doc. film also investigates the funding which powers the sceptic movement in the name of free market, anti-regulation, small government causes and finds that funding has shifted away now from the fossil fuel companies to more ideological and less public sources.

qui tacet consentire ...

[Removed]

[-] 2 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

Bagsy cut the break lines ... unless you absolutely insist on doing so, lol !!!

verum ex absurdo ...

[-] 1 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 1 year ago

Bill Moyers is to journalism, what you are to Occupy, a shining star

I am a big fan of both

~Odin~

[-] 2 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

If you dig Bill Moyers and possibly Richard Wollf, then you'll really dig this :

Thanx for your gracious comment mate. Btw you know what they say about pedestals right ? They are only good for falling off ! You shine 'O' - good luck and good wishes to you and yours in all your doings.

pax, amor et lux ...

[+] -4 points by oldJohn (-646) 1 year ago

Bill Moyers, shadz66, and you should all start working on building a Bridge To The Ground.

[-] -3 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 1 year ago

is 118 million that much money?

[-] 2 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

"Secret funding helped build vast network of climate denial thinktanks"by Suzanne Goldenburg :

"How Donors Trust distributed millions to anti-climate groups", by Suzanne Goldenburg :

"The secretive funding channel known as the Donors Trust patronised a host of conservative causes.

"But climate was at the top of the list. By 2010, Donors Trust had distributed $118m to 102 thinktanks or action groups which have a record of denying the existence of a human factor in climate change, or opposing environmental regulations.

"Recipients included some of the best-known thinktanks on the right. The American Enterprise Institute, which is closely connected to the Republican party establishment and has a large staff of scholars, received more than $17m in untraceable donations over the years, the record show.

"But relatively obscure organisations did not go overlooked. The Heartland Institute, virtually unknown outside the small world of climate politics, received $13.5m from the Donors Trust.

"Americans for Prosperity, the Tea Party group seen as the strike force of the conservative oil billionaire Koch Brothers, received $11m since 2002."

So yes - I think that $118M is enough money to serve their intentions, Matt & they'll spend much more !!

e tenebris, lux ...

[-] -2 points by DKAtoday (28242) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago
[-] -2 points by blacksabre (-40) 1 year ago

EEEEK,...let's all give our money to the Government so the climate will change back to non-warming!!! Money can change the climate??? Go figure!

[-] 3 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

"Money" is a figment of our collective imagination - the only true cost of something is 'opportunity cost', time, effort and materiel. Money should only ever be a 'means of exchange' - NOT an end in itself !!!

Go figure - http://occupywallst.org/forum/climate-change-is-happening-now-a-carbon-price-mus/#comment-888121 !!

ad iudicium ....

[+] -4 points by blacksabre (-40) 1 year ago

No thanks, you go figure. Many more intelligent people than you have already figured out "Climate Change" is nothing but a bullshit power and money scam.

[-] 4 points by amabokuf (-97) 1 year ago

Great point but it's lost on these drones.

[-] 2 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

The thing about burying your head in the sand is that it leaves (x) in the air, so expect reality to come along to kick it, sometime soon. If you had any evidence to back up your position - such as it is - you'd have posted at least one link I'd have thought.

verum ex absurdo ...

[-] 3 points by trollneg (27) from Zebulon, NC 1 year ago

Except for projections, cons see nothing of themselves.

Because they project everything negative about themselves, cons know nothing of themselves.

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

Conservatives would seek to 'conserve' and protect our environment and climate we may think, given the word but nope - 'Con' by name ; Big Con by nature ; Conned by design !!! Further, please also consider :

verum ex absurdo ...

[-] 2 points by trollneg (27) from Zebulon, NC 1 year ago

I think it's more than how they use their brains. When social instinct is subverted to indidual gain, we may be dealing with a different subspecies. They don't seem to understand that all wealth production requires a healthy community. By thinking only of themselves, they're self destructive and to dumb to know they're on a dead end thread of evolution.

I hope the rest of us wake up before the trolls take us down with them.

[-] 2 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

"UN Secretary-General Says World is in a Race Against Time" (Video)

"Ban Ki-Moon, the secretary-general of the United Nations has stated that the world is in a race against time against climate change. The COP18 UN Summit in Doha will conclude on Friday, giving the delegates two more days to agree on targets for cutting carbon emissions. The UN says climate change will cost developing countries up to $67 billion each year by 2030."

Knuckle dragging trolls and their troglodyte kind should simply stick to the darker recesses of the cavernous caves of their own mind but their 'dog in the manger' spite is deeply engrained. Fk 'em ! Solidarity !! Onwards and Upwards !!!

per ardua ad astra ...

[+] -4 points by blacksabre (-40) 1 year ago

No amount or sum of evidence will prove anything to one who will not accept something other then one's own absurd programmed preconceptions.

[-] 4 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

I appreciate your full and frank confession !!! With candour like that, you'll go far !! Now try some of the links and good luck with deprogramming yourself and losing your preconceptions ! You could do far worse than some of the links on this thread. Good luck with your continuing 'self-re-education' ~{:-)

per aspera ad astra ...

[-] -3 points by blacksabre (-40) 1 year ago

I refer you:

"I thought one of you pseudo intellects would get around to thinking for a change and try spinning comments....wow,...you're like really clever."

[+] -9 points by DKAtoday (28242) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

You explain your self?

[+] -4 points by blacksabre (-40) 1 year ago

I thought one of you pseudo intellects would get around to thinking for a change and try spinning comments....wow,...you're like really clever.

[+] -9 points by DKAtoday (28242) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

You? Not so much.

[-] -1 points by derain (-178) 1 year ago

you're correct,a scam anout money, power AND control..

[-] -3 points by DKAtoday (28242) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

... then, Donate you can be sure that the oil and gas industry won't want you to hear about it -- not after thousands of people took action to keep fracking out of our forests.

And when there's a spill of fracking fluid, or wastewater leaks into one of our rivers, they really won't want you to hear about it.

But this week, you and I have a huge chance to make sure millions of Americans do hear the truth about fracking.

Will you join me?

Environment America plans to film a short documentary on the health hazards of fracking for Breakthroughs, a public television series directed by Martin Sheen. This show on average reaches 60 million viewers in all 50 states (that's almost one in every five Americans!). With that kind of audience, we can truly show Americans the truth behind the gas and oil industry's false advertising: the pollution, the illnesses, and the costs to people like you.

The thing is, we need your help with this project. We've already raised $50,000, but we need $10,000 more to fund this documentary. Can you chip in $10, $30, or $100 today?

Each donation is one more step on the way to discrediting the fracking industry's PR campaign and protecting our water and our health. Just think of it as a personal "No fracking way!" note to the oil and gas industry.

[Please donate whatever you can. ](http://www.webaction.org/site/R?i=Co8P26lX2VBUbz6N9s7hsA

Thank you for your support.

Best,

Margie Alt Executive Director

[-] -3 points by DKAtoday (28242) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

ACTION ALERT Urge the EPA to Finalize Strong Tier 3 Standards by the End of This Year

The oil industry and its allies in Congress are working hard to stop the Environmental Protection Agency's (EPA's) proposed rule to cut tailpipe emissions from our cars and sulfur from gasoline (known as Tier 3 standards).

These standards will prevent thousands of asthma cases and millions of lost school and work days each year, and the benefits will be immediate when Tier 3 takes effect. The oil industry knows they cannot win an argument about the substance of a rule with such clear and cost-effective public health benefits, so they continue to work to delay the regulatory process.

Reducing vehicle pollution and bringing cleaner gasoline to the pump is a no-brainer. Automakers, who are stepping up to the plate to build more fuel efficient vehicles, are clamoring for cleaner fuel. Public health and consumer advocates are lauding the Tier 3 program's benefits, and state clean air officials know that reducing sulfur and tailpipe pollution is the most cost-effective way to meet federal clean air goals.

Don't let the oil industry and its allies stand in the way. The EPA needs to hear from the millions of Americans like you who want cleaner fuel and cars that pollute less.

Write to the EPA by July 1 and urge the agency to finalize Tier 3 standards by the end of this year.

Sincerely,

Rachel Cohen National Field Organizer Clean Vehicles Program Union of Concerned Scientists

The Union of Concerned Scientists puts rigorous, independent science to work to solve our planet's most pressing problems. Joining with citizens across the country, we combine technical analysis and effective advocacy to create innovative, practical solutions for a healthy, safe, and sustainable future.


I added:

You heard the presidents speech - it is time to push past the deniers of global warming/climate change.

[-] -3 points by DKAtoday (28242) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

Congress apparently needs to learn some simple math.

Every year Congress hands out about $4 billion in subsidies and tax breaks to Big Oil, which is the most profitable and most environmentally destructive industry on the planet. Yet, the House and Senate are struggling to find a way to keep college student loan rates from doubling on July 1, because they cannot figure out a way to raise the $4 billion needed to avert the increase.*

oilsubstuitionrates2.pngCongress is working to prevent the student loan rate from doubling on July 1, but so far the Republicans and Democrats in Congress have been unable to forge a deal. They're considering a range of options, but so far no agreements have been made. And in one week, every student in America will have to pay more money for the same education.

The solution is really much more simple — cut the wasteful and harmful subsidies to the oil industry, which doesn't need the money and uses it to further harm the planet by increasing global warming pollution.** Please sign our petition today asking Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid to end the Big Oil Billion Dollar Bailout and keep college affordable.

My plan is a win-win situation. Giving subsidies to Big Oil is steals from our childrens' future by creating a harsh environment with warmer temperatures, extreme weather, whole species lost forever, and cities and communities destroyed by sea level rise on a scale we've not experienced.

On the other hand, keeping college loan rates low gives our kids a better chance at a higher education. Heck, maybe one of these kids will go to college, major in climate science and then figure out a way out of this global climate mess. Certainly, more people with a higher education should at least create a generation of potential senators and representatives who won't have as much problem with simple math.

Tell Sen. Reid today that you want Congress to cut oil subsidies and not raise college tuition loan rates. It will help the environment and our future.

Thank you,

Drew Hudson Environmental Action, Director

** Four Hot Summer Budget Battles that Affect You, National Priorities Project, website, June 2013.

Facebook

Twitter

[-] 2 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

Yep, "cut the wasteful and harmful subsidies to the oil industry, which doesn't need the money and uses it to further harm the planet by increasing global warming pollution.'' !! Thanx for the excellent links & further to your 'Student Loan Link' and tho' at a bit of a tangent to this thread, I append :

fiat lux ....

[-] -3 points by DKAtoday (28242) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago
[-] -3 points by DKAtoday (28242) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

Return - In compliment =

REPLY TO E-MAIL RECEIVED : ( e-mail replied to follows reply )

IF SO = President Obama is set to announce his plan this week to address the growing threat of climate change.

Then He better drop all of the bullshit about opening up more land for fracking and for oil drilling. As the fossil fuel industry is exporting - these resources are not needed for domestic use - they are only needed for fossil fuel profits. At the expense of our environment - in direct conflict with saving our environment - in direct conflict with stopping global warming.

So - TELL HIM to CUT the SHIT and get down to real business of clean tech green tech power generation and transportation and industry.

OR save the crap propaganda for any newborns who live long enough to hear it for the 1st time.

SERIOUSLY.



Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2013 12:53:02 -0400 To: dkatoday From: info@barackobama.com Subject: Tuesday's big announcement:

Organizing for Action this is huge news:

President Obama is set to announce his plan this week to address the growing threat of climate change.

We'll know more specifics on Tuesday, but it's expected he'll offer a bold, national approach to reducing carbon pollution -- and lay out a vision to lead global efforts to fight climate change.

The powerful, well-financed forces who still deny the science behind climate change aren't going to like this -- and they'll be fighting this progress every step of the way. In fact, before he's even seen the plan, House Speaker John Boehner is calling it "absolutely crazy."

That's why President Obama is calling on all of us -- anyone who believes that climate change is a threat -- to join him in taking action right now.

Thanks for helping hold climate deniers accountable -- join the President's call and add your name today:

http://my.barackobama.com/Stand-Up-Against-Climate-Change

Thanks -- more on this soon.

Jon

Jon Carson Executive Director Organizing for Action


A movement of millions elected President Obama. Let's keep fighting for change. Chip in $5 or more to support Organizing for Action today.

Paid for by Organizing for Action

Contributions or gifts to Organizing for Action are not tax deductible.

This email was sent to: dka01@live.com. If that is not your preferred email address, you can update your information here. We believe that emails are a vital way to stay in direct contact with supporters. Click here if you'd like to unsubscribe from these messages. Organizing for Action, P.O. Box 66732 Washington, D.C. 20035

[-] -3 points by DKAtoday (28242) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

REPLY TO E-MAIL RECEIVED : ( e-mail replied to follows reply )

IF SO = President Obama is set to announce his plan this week to address the growing threat of climate change.

Then He better drop all of the bullshit about opening up more land for fracking and for oil drilling. As the fossil fuel industry is exporting - these resources are not needed for domestic use - they are only needed for fossil fuel profits. At the expense of our environment - in direct conflict with saving our environment - in direct conflict with stopping global warming.

So - TELL HIM to CUT the SHIT and get down to real business of clean tech green tech power generation and transportation and industry.

OR save the crap propaganda for any newborns who live long enough to hear it for the 1st time.

SERIOUSLY.

Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2013 12:53:02 -0400 To: dkatoday From: info@barackobama.com Subject: Tuesday's big announcement:

Organizing for Action this is huge news:

President Obama is set to announce his plan this week to address the growing threat of climate change.

We'll know more specifics on Tuesday, but it's expected he'll offer a bold, national approach to reducing carbon pollution -- and lay out a vision to lead global efforts to fight climate change.

The powerful, well-financed forces who still deny the science behind climate change aren't going to like this -- and they'll be fighting this progress every step of the way. In fact, before he's even seen the plan, House Speaker John Boehner is calling it "absolutely crazy."

That's why President Obama is calling on all of us -- anyone who believes that climate change is a threat -- to join him in taking action right now.

Thanks for helping hold climate deniers accountable -- join the President's call and add your name today:

http://my.barackobama.com/Stand-Up-Against-Climate-Change

Thanks -- more on this soon.

Jon

Jon Carson Executive Director Organizing for Action


A movement of millions elected President Obama. Let's keep fighting for change. Chip in $5 or more to support Organizing for Action today.

Paid for by Organizing for Action

Contributions or gifts to Organizing for Action are not tax deductible.

This email was sent to: dka01@live.com. If that is not your preferred email address, you can update your information here. We believe that emails are a vital way to stay in direct contact with supporters. Click here if you'd like to unsubscribe from these messages. Organizing for Action, P.O. Box 66732 Washington, D.C. 20035

[-] -3 points by DKAtoday (28242) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

You are one of the 80,021 EDF activists who have stood in support of Gina McCarthy as the next EPA Administrator—and I wanted to make sure you heard the great news that broke yesterday afternoon.

After Senator David Vitter (R-LA) led a boycott of last week's confirmation vote in the Senate Environment and Public Works Committee, the committee reconvened yesterday and voted to send McCarthy to the full Senate for final confirmation. Your voice is being heard and this highly qualified nominee is one step closer to filling a very important position for our clean air and climate future.

You've already added your voice to this confirmation effort. Please take the next step by asking your friends and social networks to "Stand with Gina" today. Use our share buttons below, or copy and paste this message:

Support Gina McCarthy for EPA chief to lead on clean air and climate: http://goo.gl/pxJC4 #Gina4EPA FB

Twitter

The EPA job is far too important to leave unfilled for so long. Your action is making a difference and we're making progress.

Thank you for your activism and support, Heather Shelby Action Network Coordinator

[-] -3 points by DKAtoday (28242) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

From The Union of Concerned Scientists:

Guess what the South Carolina Department of Natural Resources did with a state-funded scientific report on the flooding, contamination, and coastal "dead zones" that climate change could bring to the state?1

They buried it. The department's politically-appointed board said it didn't want to address "the reasons for climate change, which remain under scientific debate."2

There is no scientific debate—only a political one.

When we found out about this, UCS members sprang into action—and after scrutiny from local media and people like you, state officials now say they will release the report.3

We need your help to make sure they keep their promise—and to fight the suppression of science whenever and wherever it happens.

Stand up to the political manipulation of facts. Donate now and help reach our $50,000 goal.

Why support UCS? Because attacks like these won't stop. Right now, science is under threat in state houses around the country:

In North Carolina, lawmakers are trying to repeal the state's renewable energy standards using a bill drafted by coal and oil company-backed groups.4

In Missouri, legislators are trying to force science teachers to give equal time to "intelligent design" and "destiny" when they discuss the theory of evolution.5 But the last time I checked, scientists decide what science is—not politicians.

With your support, our policy and media teams run rapid-response campaigns that inform the public about abuses of science and power. And our efforts are effective. In just the past few months UCS played a leading role in beating back an effort in Kansas—home of Koch Industries—to gut that state's renewable energy standard.

But we also go beyond the attacks—evaluating how business and government treat science and scientists. Our recent report, Grading Government Transparency, details how federal agencies allow scientists to communicate with the public. One agency immediately took notice: Just four hours after the report's release, the U.S. Geological Survey publicly adopted our recommendations.

Your support helps put groundbreaking reports in the hands of decision makers and allows UCS to respond at a moment's notice when science or scientists are attacked. We need you: please make a gift today.

I know I can count on you to stand with us. Please, contribute what you can.

Sincerely,

Kevin Knobloch President

  1. http://www.ucsusa.org/publications/got-science/2013/got-science-april-2013.html

  2. http://www.thestate.com/2013/02/26/2650685/ex-wildlife-chief-warns-of-climate.html

  3. http://www.ucsusa.org/publications/got-science/2013/got-science-april-2013.html

  4. http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2013/04/04/1824171/alec-sponsored-bill-to-repeal-north-carolinas-renewable-energy-standard-narrowly-passes-out-of-committee/

  5. http://www.motherjones.com/mojo/2013/02/intelligent-design-missouri-evolution

The Union of Concerned Scientists puts rigorous, independent science to work to solve our planet's most pressing problems. Joining with citizens across the country, we combine technical analysis and effective advocacy to create innovative, practical solutions for a healthy, safe, and sustainable future.


I sent a reply:

Also I think all of you groups - like the Sierra club, AARP, The American Cancer Society, the AMA, FDA, EPA, Green Tech/Clean Tech etc. You all need to network to inspire a wider audience - Synergy -

Global Warming ( climate change ) - major factors = fossil fuel, extraction and use - Power, Transportation, industry - also ties directly in with causes of disease/death (cancer being foremost ?) due to it's ( Fossil Fuel ) pollution/poisoning of the Air Land and Water ( ground water especially with fracking ).

Synergy - Get together so that the whole (combined) is greater than the sum of the parts (individual efforts).

[-] -3 points by DKAtoday (28242) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

Tweet -

DKAtoday ‏@DKAtoday

An E-mail Comment/request on Global Warming

http://occupywallst.org/forum/climate-change-is-happening-now-a-carbon-price-mus/#comment-971290

And a reply about Networking/Synergy

Food 4 Thought.

Please Consider

Expand

[-] -3 points by DKAtoday (28242) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

EDITED: Can U believe it??? Is this effort for real???


Surprise surprise.

The same lawmakers who deny climate science are now the ones standing in the way of making any environmental progress whatsoever.

Last week, the Senate Environment and Public Works Committee was scheduled to vote on the nomination of Gina McCarthy, a bipartisan choice to be the next Environmental Protection Agency administrator.

None of the eight Republican members of the committee showed up, boycotting the vote, and effectively blocking it altogether.

Here's a detail that's getting left out of the news reports: Seven of those Republicans don't actually believe in the science behind climate change -- and they refuse the notion that we have a responsibility to act on it.

You said you'd like to be part of the team holding these climate deniers accountable, and this is exactly the moment to get going.

If they're going to stand in the way of a qualified EPA nominee, we're going to call them out for their ignorance. We put together a graphic that makes that point pretty clearly. Take a look -- then share it right now and ask your friends to join you in exposing these climate deniers:

Share on Facebook Share on Twitter McCarthy is an ideal candidate to run the EPA -- in 2009, the Senate easily confirmed her to head the EPA's Clean Air Division. Before that, she worked as the environmental enforcer for Mitt Romney in Massachusetts.

More importantly, she's answered every reasonable question asked of her. All McCarthy wants to do is the job President Obama has asked her to do -- the job of keeping our air and water clean, and our children healthy and safe from pollution.

These climate deniers need to stop playing games -- this isn't a time for partisan politics. Climate change is a real problem, and as the EPA works to combat carbon pollution as well as keep toxic chemicals out of our air and water, it needs a leader like McCarthy.

As long as they're in denial, we're going to be calling them out.

Share this graphic with your friends and ask them to join the team of people holding deniers accountable:

http://my.barackobama.com/Hold-Climate-Deniers-Accountable-Share

Thanks -- more to come.

Ivan

Ivan Frishberg Climate Campaign Manager Organizing for Action


I must admit - I have stated that those standing in the way of positive change should have their photos sent out to the public.


I sent back this reply:

BTW - Do you really want to be a leader on fighting Global Warming?

If so. You might want to look into - The Liquid Metal Battery - Storage & Distribution Of Electricity - "STORAGE" of electricity held for use and distributed as needed by the demand on the Power Grid - no more power surges or Brown-outs or Black-outs. The missing link to the improvement of thePower Grid as well as a boost for clean energy. Check it out - http://t.co/r8oTiD6akk

Would also help if you finally rejected the XL Keystone pipeline - I mean the word is already out - the tar sands are meant - TARGETED - For Export - not for meeting any need in the USA.

Stop fracking - also being done not for NEED but for GREED - as this is also being Exported - Hence Not Needed in the USA.

Commit to clean energy. Consider federal supported public works in the 50 states to upgrade our fragile and wasteful Power Grid Infra structure - there are the millions of jobs that are needed to get this country employed - combat global warming - and pump money back into circulation in the economy.

Because the wallstreet/bank stimulus? Admit it - TOTAL FAILURE - TBTF should have been broken-up into manageable pieces - the money pumped into that system is not getting out into circulation in the economy. TRICKLE DOWN HAS NEVER WORKED - not for the people - as nothing was put into motion - ever - to promote job growth in the USA.

You want the plain and simple truth about the economy??? As it is plain to see that you are not hearing about it from your advisers.

Let ME help - check this out - it is short sweet and to the point - youtube.com/watch?v=bBx2Y5HhplI … Common Sense Reality. Economic Truth. Plain & Simple. Watch Consider Share Circulate Please!!!

Austerity does not work - it makes bad worse - consider the truth about austerity measures ( attacks on medicare and social security to name a couple ). Austerity = Democide http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democide . Get familiar with the term the public is as it is out on social media. Share the term with the senate and congress. Most especially to those in office who are in open rebellion against the Constitution and so this Country.

[-] -1 points by DKAtoday (28242) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

Tweet

I received an e-mail from the prez.

http://occupywallst.org/forum/climate-change-is-happening-now-a-carbon-price-mus/#comment-971082

I then replied.

You can check it out

It's about :

Global Warming

Economy

[-] -3 points by DKAtoday (28242) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

From - Move to Amend

When it comes to constitutions, the application of law, and common sense, the Supreme Court of the United States could learn a thing or two from President Judge Debbie O’Dell-Seneca of the Washington County Court of Common Pleas in Pennsylvania.

O’Dell-Seneca overruled a previous decision that sealed a settlement between a Mount Pleasant Township family and large energy corporations, which caused the family harm because of fracking on an adjacent property to their own. The Observer-Reporter and Pittsburgh Post-Gazette pressed the suit, which ultimately decided the public’s right to be informed outstripped the corporation’s right to privacy.

In fact, O’Dell-Seneca went much further than that. The judge asserted corporations have no constitutional rights:

“...the constitution vests in business entities no special rights that the laws of this Commonwealth cannot extinguish. In sum, [corporations] cannot assert [constitutional privacy] protections because they are not mentioned in its text.”

“...it is axiomatic that corporations, companies, and partnerships have no ‘spiritual nature,’ ‘feelings,’ ‘intellect,’ ‘beliefs,’ ‘thoughts,’ ‘emotions,’ or ‘sensations,’ because they do not exist in the manner that humankind exists… They cannot be ‘let alone’ by government, because businesses are but grapes, ripe upon the vine of the law, that the people of this Commonwealth raise, tend, and prune at their pleasure and need.”

Our friends at the Community Environmental Legal Defense Fund (CELDF), provide a great analysis of this case (pdf), and the Observer-Reporter details the facts of the case in this article.

Despite the mainstream media’s blackout on any reporting that calls into question corporate personhood, this recent decision is an important victory for our movement.

CELDF Executive Director Thomas Linzey writes:

“The ruling represents the first crack in the judicial armor that has been so meticulously welded together by major corporations. And it affirms what many communities already know -- that change only occurs when people begin to openly question and challenge legal doctrines that have been treated as sacred by most lawyers and judges.”

Laws follow culture and the legal system adjusts as society's views shift. This case illustrates that we are collectively beginning to change hearts and minds about the appropriate role of the corporation in society, even amongst those who are entrenched in the current system.

Keep it up!

Ashley Sanders, Daniel Lee, David Cobb, Egberto Willies, George Friday, Jerome Scott, Kaitlin Sopoci-Belknap, Laura Bonham, Maria Agosto, Nancy Price, Pam Brown

Move to Amend National Leadership Team

P.S. In a recent episode of Move to Amend Reports, Shannon Biggs of Global Exchange talked about community rights, rights of nature, and fracking. Listen here!

And tune in this week when Egberto and Laura interview Carl Gibson from Operation Green Jobs, a march to the US Chamber of Commerce headquarters in DC all the way from Philadelphia between May 18th and 24th. Move to Amend Reports is every Thursday at 5pm Pacific/8pm Eastern and can be heard live or recorded at http://blogtalkradio.com/movetoamend.

MOVE TO AMEND

PO Box 610, Eureka CA 95502 | (707) 269-0984 | www.MoveToAmend.org

We, the People of the United States of America, reject the U.S. Supreme Court's Citizens United ruling, and move to amend our Constitution to firmly establish that money is not speech, and that human beings, not corporations, are persons entitled to constitutional rights.


great analysis of this case (pdf)

http://movetoamend.nationbuilder.com/r?u=http://tinyurl.com/dxro97v&utm_campaign=pa_judge&n=5&e=2ae135fada3068fbc9ccdd9b1d9214f03ddbbcaf&utm_source=movetoamend&utm_medium=email


this article.

http://movetoamend.nationbuilder.com/r?u=http://www.observer-reporter.com/article/20130320/NEWS01/130329893%23.UXFEIoWjQ-m&utm_campaign=pa_judge&n=6&e=2ae135fada3068fbc9ccdd9b1d9214f03ddbbcaf&utm_source=movetoamend&utm_medium=email


tweet

Observer-Reporter | Judge rules in newspapers’ favor in Hallowich-Range case http://www.observer-reporter.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=%2F20130320%2FNEWS01%2F130329893&source=RSS#.UZO9dfGMjaj.twitter Progress Pls Share/Circulate

[-] -3 points by DKAtoday (28242) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

Humanity Can Achieve The Wondrous.

Once UN-reachable heights.

The Final Epic Act Of The Departing Commander Of The International Space Station Truly RockedThe Final Epic Act Of The Departing Commander Of The International Space Station Truly Rocked

Let us make Clean Tech Implementation another - Wondrous Achievement.

[-] -3 points by DKAtoday (28242) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

Global Warming unusual/turbulent weather.

Minnesota - Snow all through April while except for North and South Dakota the rest of the country experienced warmer than normal temps.

Minnesota widespread snow and sleet into the 1st week of may - now predicted for tomorrow ( way out of season again ) Tuesday the 14th our 1st 90 degree day. Today it is currently 60 degrees outside ( 1:20pm central ).

[-] -3 points by DKAtoday (28242) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

Good News - am I the only one - or have any of you noticed how different groups are now networking? Employing Synergy - as they are now often times forwarding the same information and action alerts as well as presenting complimentary petitions as well as forwarding some of the same petitions. Getting good information out into wide circulation. Making the Whole greater than the Sum of their parts.


AARP - and - Care2

Two years ago, President Obama promised in his State of the Union address to protect Social Security. So why is he considering a change that would mean $112 billion in cuts to Social Security over ten years?

The President's speech two years ago included a promise we can all agree with: We should strengthen Social Security without cutting the benefits of current retirees.

But just over a month ago on Meet the Press, the president said: "One of the proposals we've made was something called Chained CPI... an adjustment in how inflation is calculated on Social Security." It sounds simple, but this shortsighted change will mean $112 billion in cuts to Social Security over ten years.

[That huge a cut to Social Security will only hurt those who can least afford it.(http://www.care2.com/go/z/e/Ahnb5/zNi1/B18Bb)

President Obama needs to keep his promise. The chained CPI proposal would lower the yearly cost-of-living adjustment (COLA) for current retirees, leaving seniors struggling to keep up with the rising cost of prescriptions, utilities, and health care.

Send a letter to President Obama today and tell him to keep his promise to protect seniors on Social Security.

Thank you for taking action,

Ellen B. Care2 and ThePetitionSite Team

[-] -3 points by DKAtoday (28242) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

Huge news: Because of our pressure, two co-founders of Mark Zuckerberg's dark-money group FWD.us withdrew their support this weekend over the organization's cynical political strategy.

Public perception has turned 180 degrees on Zuckerberg's group in less than a week because we organized with our partners to decry their clumsy, backdoor strategy of advocating for immigration reform by spouting terrible environmental policy.

Now it's time for other major backers of FWD.us -- including LinkedIn's Reid Hoffman, eBay's John Donahoe, Yahoo's Marissa Mayer, Kleiner Perkins' John Doerr, and Microsoft's founder Bill Gates and CEO Steve Ballmer -- to take the same step and disavow these flawed political tactics.

Build on this amazing momentum, and tell other major backers of FWD.us to resign from the organization. Sign progressives' petition today.

The campaign we started with our allies is creating an impossible bind for Silicon Valley heavies who won't abide spreading right-wing environmental lines through a couple of dark-money front groups created specifically to give influential legislators political cover.

Elon Musk, founder of eco-friendly Tesla Motors, said over the weekend that he could not back an organization like FWD.us that pushed immigration reform by selling out the environment or other core progressive issues. David Sacks, of social networking site Yammer, also left the group in the dustup.

The departure of these technology titans shows that even the founders of FWD.us are second-guessing the strategy of supporting deeply regressive policies to advance their industry's legitimate interest in comprehensive immigration reform.

Their resignations also give us the best opportunity yet to make sure FWD.us never plays this cynical dark-money game again.

Tell major backers of FWD.us today: Take Elon Musk and David Sacks's lead, and resign from the organization.

Because we united, leading a coalition including CREDO, the Sierra Club, the League of Conservation Voters, Democracy for America, and others, we're shaking up the power structure of some of the wealthiest individual and corporate interests in America.

These Silicon Valley executives aren't used to massive public pressure, so every signature will count in moving their decision. Now is no time to let up. Please sign progressives' petition today.

Thanks for uniting as a progressive,

Josh Orton Political Director Progressives United

[-] -3 points by DKAtoday (28242) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

Information Provided By OWS - made a GR8 Tweet.

http://salsa3.salsalabs.com/o/50112/t/0/blastContent.jsp?email_blast_KEY=1246790 #OWS

Standing up 4 a CLEAN & HEALTHY WORLD.

End Fossil Fuel Poison/Pollution.

Demand it.

When?

Now!

[-] -3 points by vaprosvyeh (-400) 1 year ago

If anyone here is actually interested in facts rather than Mr. Hansen's opinion, I offer the following:

James Hansen recently admitted that the results of his own study prove that global warming has halted for now-

http://www.climatechangedispatch.com/home/10915-james-hansen-nasa-admits-global-temperature-standstill-is-real

(Great article with many links to other scientific information as well)


In other global warming news-

It appears that someone finally TOOK A SURVEY of scientists about their consensus-(rather than relying on statements made by the organizations they belong to without asking the scientists themselves)

Survey says? No consensus!

http://blogs.forbes.com/jamestaylor/

Peer-Reviewed Survey Finds Majority Of Scientists Skeptical Of Global Warming Crisis 02-13-2013

Now in case you find it vile and disgusting to read anything from Forbes, here's a link to the actual survey itself.

http://oss.sagepub.com/content/33/11/1477.full

For those of you who don't want to read the entire survey-here are the highlights.

"Framing the climate change debate and constructing expertise Drawing from survey responses of 1077 professional engineers and geoscientists, we reconstruct their framings of the issue and knowledge claims to position themselves within their organizational and their professional institutions."

"In our field of study, we note that there is a distinction between experts who express concern about the rapidly changing climate and those who deny that there is a problem related to climate change. The ensuing debate is often caricatured as a war between two sides – ‘you either believe in climate change or you don’t’ – especially in North America. We find that virtually all respondents (99.4%) agree that the climate is changing. However, there is considerable disagreement as to cause, consequences, and lines of action (as outlined in Figure 2). On this basis, we find five different frames, each of them summarized in Table 3. Eight percent of respondents did not provide enough information regarding their framing of climate change to be categorized. "

-----FINDINGS-----

"The largest group of APEGA respondents (36%) draws on a frame that we label ‘comply with Kyoto’. In their diagnostic framing, they express the strong belief that climate change is happening, that it is not a normal cycle of nature, and humans are the main or central cause."

"The second largest group (24%) express a ‘nature is overwhelming’ frame. In their diagnostic framing, they believe that changes to the climate are natural, normal cycles of the Earth. Their focus is on the past: ‘If you think about it, global warming is what brought us out of the Ice Age.’ Humans are too insignificant to have an impact on nature:"

"Fatalists’, a surprisingly large group (17%), diagnose climate change as both human- and naturally caused. ‘Fatalists’ consider climate change to be a smaller public risk with little impact on their personal life. They are sceptical that the scientific debate is settled regarding the IPCC modeling: ‘The number of variables and their interrelationships are almost unlimited – if anyone thinks they have all the answers, they have failed to ask all of the questions.’ "

"Ten percent of respondents draw on an ‘economic responsibility’ frame. They diagnose climate change as being natural or human caused. More than any other group, they underscore that the ‘real’ cause of climate change is unknown as nature is forever changing and uncontrollable."

"The last group (5%) expresses a frame we call ‘regulation activists’. This frame has the smallest number of adherents, expresses the most paradoxical framing, and yet is more agentic than ‘comply with Kyoto’. Advocates of this frame diagnose climate change as being both human- and naturally caused, posing a moderate public risk, with only slight impact on their personal life."

99.4% say that the climate is changing. No “climate change” deniers here. NONE. BUT

36% say climate change is not a normal cycle of nature and that humans are the central cause of it 24% say climate change is a natural, normal cycle of Earth. 17% say it’s both humans and nature, but the science isn’t settled and no one has all the answers 10% say it could be nature or it could be humans, but the cause is unknown *5% say it’s both nature and human, but only poses a moderate risk

Conclusion-There IS NO CONSENSUS among APEGA members that humans are the direct cause of global warming.


There is also no consensus among "broadcast meteorologists" . From a 2010 survey "conducted by the congressionally funded National Environmental Education Foundation and vetted by an advisory board of climate experts from groups such as the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, National Weather Service, and Pew Center for Global Climate Change.”-

FINDINGS- Only 25% of those surveyed agreed with the IPCC that humans are the cause. NO CONSENSUS.

“Only one in four Only one in four American Meteorological Society broadcast meteorologists agrees with United Nations’ claims that humans are primarily responsible for recent global warming, a survey published in the Bulletin of the American Meteorological Society reports."

"The survey results contradict the oft-repeated assertion that a consensus of scientists believes humans are causing a global warming crisis."

"Joe D’Aleo, executive director of the International Climate and Environmental Change Assessment Project and first director of meteorology at the Weather Channel, is not surprised by the survey results."

“AMS has tried very hard to brainwash broadcast meteorologists by forcing them to attend conferences and teleconferences with one-sided presentations where global warming evangelism is preached,” D’Aleo said. “Broadcasters send me notifications they get from AMS telling them they must attend these conferences where only the alarmist point of view is preached. This survey shows that broadcast meteorologists are not swayed by these one-sided presentations."


Now in 2013- From an AMS survey taken "where all respondents are AMS meteorologists, a majority have Ph.D.s and fully 80% have a Ph.D. or Masters Degree, position statements by organizational bureaucracies carry little scientific weight" (So these are not News TV weathermen...these are scientific meteorologists)

http://www.climatechangecommunication.org/report/american-meteorological-society-member-survey-global-warming-preliminary-findings-february

"According to American Meteorological Society (AMS) data, 89% of AMS meteorologists believe global warming is happening, but only a minority (30%) is very worried about global warming.This sharp contrast between the large majority of meteorologists who believe global warming is happening and the modest minority who are nevertheless very worried about it is consistent with other scientist surveys."

" This contrast exposes global warming alarmists who assert that 97% of the world’s scientists agree humans are causing a global warming crisis simply because these scientists believe global warming is occurring. However, as this and other scientist surveys show, believing that some warming is occurring is not the same as believing humans are causing a worrisome crisis."

"Other questions solidified the meteorologists’ skepticism about humans creating a global warming crisis. For example, among those meteorologists who believe global warming is happening, only a modest majority (59%) believe humans are the primary cause. More importantly, only 38% of respondents who believe global warming is occurring say it will be very harmful during the next 100 years."

No consensus here that humans are the cause either.


The empirical evidence says there is no consensus, so why are people perpetuating the myth that there is one? Seems rather unscientific to declare something to be true when the evidence shows it is not.

[-] 6 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

Ok, 'BetsyR' - I examined all four of your links above, with some care and guess what ? I do NOT come to your 'conclusions' ! Quelle surprise, n'est ce pas ?

Your whole seemingly intricate - but actually mainly copy/pasted post, was really coming out of James Taylor's [ http://blogs.forbes.com/jamestaylor/ ] blog posting, from that rather infamous '0.01%er House Journal' - 'Forbes Magazine' that you are so enamoured of and your other links are gleaned from there too - although you had enough good sense to at least leave out the 'Heartland's Institute' link, lol.

The only other major 'source' that got you all so very hot and bothered, was from yet another denialist blog [ http://www.climatechangedispatch.com/ ] a post by none other than 'professional denialist' Benny Pieser [ http://www.thegwpf.org/who-we-are/dr-benny-peiser/ ] - who is currenty based at the only private university in the UK & which is funded ONLY by Private Corporate Donors. 'Pisser' is extremely close to 'Lords' Lawson and Monkton - people who are regarded as being on the lunatic 'AGW-Denialist' fringe in the UK. Your two other links are cherry picked form James Taylor's, Forbes blog and were chosen of course by him (& you?) for maximum obfuscation.

This shit won't wash here 'BetsyR' & neither will : "The empirical evidence says there is no consensus, so why are people perpetuating the myth that there is one? Seems rather unscientific to declare something to be true when the evidence shows it is not." - but thanx for playing here and your bumping my thread. I could deconstruct these links further (& may do in further replies) but frankly my comments & links on this thread have done that already but I do re-append & highly recommend, the following 'fyi' :

"Climate of Doubt" describes the 'Libertarian' individuals and groups behind a well organized effort to attack science by actually undermining scientists and to try to unseat politicians who say they believe there is current climate change caused by human activity. This film also investigates the funding which powers the sceptic movement in the name of free market, anti-regulation, small government causes and finds that funding has shifted away from fossil fuel companies to more ideological & less public sources.

So who are these 'free market think tanks & institutes' behind the pseudo-libertarian denialist crusade ?

Furthermore 'BetsyR', please try to put aside your prejudices & fixations to engage with & reflect upon :

"Scientists do not disagree about human-caused global warming. It is the ruling paradigm of climate science, in the same way that plate tectonics is the ruling paradigm of geology. We know that continents move. We know that the earth is warming and that human emissions of greenhouse gases are the primary cause. These are known facts about which virtually all publishing scientists agree." - excerpted from the first 'Nation of Change' link below :

The last is not an overly long paper but if it's too much like hard work for you, skip to conclusions and work back perhaps. So 'BetsyR', re. your post, links & thoughts on Anthropomorphic Global Warming ...

cui bono ?

[-] -1 points by vaprosvyeh (-400) 1 year ago

Do you not understand the difference between an article ON a report/survey/study, and the actual report/survey/study? I linked directly to the survey done AND highlighted and quoted (note the quotation marks) the survey from it's website directly. Which you would KNOW for YOURSELF, if you had even bothered to READ the survey.

http://oss.sagepub.com/content/33/11/1477.full

I also read and highlighted reports on the American Meteorological Society Member Survey on Global Warming: Preliminary Findings, February 2012 AND posted a link TO THE ACTUAL REPORT on the George Mason University website so people could actually check for themselves to see if the reports were true. You OBVIOUSLY did NOT READ that report either.

Why? Scared? Too hard? Or just not worth your time if it might affect or reflect upon your personal agenda? (see I can make half assed and completely shit based assumptions about you as well!)

Contrary to your accusations, I actually READ the scientific reports referenced in articles, and when I find them credible, I provide a link DIRECTLY to those reports. Unlike you, I don't discount an actual study or research simply because I don't like or agree with whomever decided to write up an article about that study or research.

For example, I read the Nation of Change article, and found it doesn't disagree with me. What you didn't "get" (because you haven't read the surveys I'm talking about) is that the vast majority of the scientists from the surveys I posted DID NOT DENY global warming. On that, there WAS CONSENSUS. There was not consensus on the WHY of global warming.

Even the climate of change link you posted states-"Articles that merely claimed to have found some discrepancy, some minor flaw, some reason for doubt, I did not classify as rejecting global warming."

These scientists are saying there are discrepancies, flaws, reasons for doubt, and even your author does not classify them as rejecting global warming. And the fact that there are so many papers out there on those discrepancies, flaws, reasons for doubt would be WHAT? ...Apparently there's a whole bunch of NON consensus on something going on in the scientific community.

And when you ask large groups of those scientists-in order to gather factual, empirical evidence on what they believe/know...something science is supposed to demand-you find out that statements made on their behalf, which is NOT scientific or accurate, like the one you quoted are false.

I am aware of ARM...thank you though.

Your last link was "highly relevant" in 2004.

I'm interested in the data, not where the money comes from to fund the research. If it's scientifically arrived at, it doesn't really matter to me. Although I DID point out that the 2010 survey I referenced was

"conducted by the congressionally funded National Environmental Education Foundation and vetted by an advisory board of climate experts from groups such as the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, National Weather Service, and Pew Center for Global Climate Change.”

Are you saying that they are part of the groups undermining scientists and science?!!

[-] 3 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

No 'BetsyR', you are wrong to think that I had not looked at your links. The theses of the survey in the paper which you connected to, was all about 'Management Theory' as applied to the issue of A.G.W. & written by 'Management Science' practitioners for 'Management Consultants and Policy Advisers'. It's a revealing study in obfuscation and is 'Corporate Management Newspeak' but not really any kind of hard scientific critique and it is more of a treatise on the 'Manufacture of Consent' ; Perception Management and Public Relations, in my opinion.

Its authors, Lianne M. Lefsrud, (University of Alberta, Canada) & Renate E. Meyer (Vienna University of Economics and Business, Austria and The Copenhagen Business School, Denmark) are not scientists. They teach 'Management Theory' to future and present 'Management & Business Consultants' and they are, I think - really professional corporate perception managers at 'Business Schools'.

The introduction starts with : "With all of the hysteria, all of the fear, all of the phony science, could it be that man-made global warming is the greatest hoax ever perpetrated on the American people? (Inhofe, 2003) ... & then they (& you?) proceed to try to show how to illustrate this. Sen. Inhofe ?! Seriously ?!!

They go on to say themselves : "we reconstruct the frames of one group of experts who have not received much attention in previous research and yet play a central role in understanding industry responses – professional experts in petroleum and related industries. Not only are we interested in the positions they take towards climate change and in the recommendations for policy development and organizational decision-making that they derive from their "Framings", but also in how they construct and attempt to safeguard their expert status against others. To gain an understanding of the competing expert claims and to link them to issues of professional resistance and defensive institutional work, we combine insights from various disciplines and approaches: Framing, Professions Literature and Institutional Theory." So - 'Red flags', anyone ?!

We can cherry pick quotes all day but we are (melting?!) poles apart 'BetsyR' and never the twain shall meet. You and I must do as consciences dictate but I seriously question the motives and nature of the funders of 'AFG-Denial' very much indeed :

So I again repeat that, "Climate of Doubt" describes the 'Libertarian' individuals and groups behind a well organized effort to attack science by actually undermining scientists and to try to unseat politicians who say they believe there is current climate change caused by human activity. This film also investigates the funding which powers the sceptic movement in the name of free market, anti-regulation, small government causes and finds that funding has shifted away from fossil fuel companies to more ideological & less public sources.

Once again 'BetsyR' - how can we as a sentient species, consider that we can bypass the Carbon Cycle and extract huge amounts of carbon based fuels, burn them and almost instantly (in geological time) return this carbon to the atmosphere Without There Being Any Repercussions ?! What is our individual and collective intuition on this matter ?!!

That Carbon Dioxide even tho' it is essential to life via photo-synthesis, is also a 'Greenhouse Gas' is undeniable. The Greenhouse Effect is well understood and without it life on this planet would not exist. We owe our previously relatively stable climate to this and the level of CO2 has been pretty stable at ~ 300ppm (0.03%) for a very, very long time - verifiable from ice and lake sediment cores.

However, that proportion has risen in the last 50 years to ~390ppm (0.039%) which is a 30% increase in CO2 levels. Further, both water vapour and methane are also greenhouse gases and the level of both will also rise with rising global temperatures by 'positive feedback'.

A Human Influenced and possible 'run away' Greenhouse Effect is empirically, scientifically and mathematically possible, so the question is do we accept or 'believe' that it is happening ?

Do we wish to do anything about it ?! When you say that : "Your last link was "highly relevant" in 2004", then I'll leave by asking ... have the laws of physics changed since then ?!!

ad iudicium ...

[-] -3 points by vaprosvyeh (-400) 1 year ago

Wow. You really don't do your homework.

The "professional experts" might work in the petroleum/related industries, but they are "The Association of Professional Engineers and Geoscientists of Alberta " APEGA. Duh.

http://oss.sagepub.com/content/33/11/1477/T1.expansion.html

Now, if they were all "petroleum" vampires only interested in their jobs and money, you'd think they'd have all agreed that a) global warming is NOT happening (which they did not) and b) that they would have overwhelmingly said that human emissions are not at all to blame (which they did not)

And I NEVER suggested that the organization doing the survey was a scientific one. EVER. They were attempting to survey SCIENTISTS in the industries and understand not only what their claims are, but what they are based on. Hence the title "Sage Publications-Organization Studies".

I didn't hide any of that information because the point was that there is no consensus among this group of PROFESSIONAL ENGINEERS AND GEO SCIENTISTS. Your paranoia and refusal to even consider the data without suspicion or bias indicates there's no use debating with you.

That you prefer to read articles published by people who are screaming that "run away greehouse effects are starting", but based on the DATA from NOAA, HADCRUT etc-it's easy to see that it's NOT.

Graph using NOAA's data set proves a LACK of climate sensitivity to CO2 for the past 100 years.

http://c3headlines.typepad.com/.a/6a010536b58035970c017c3601066c970b-pi

Using IPCC/HADCRUT data-chart indicates that "despite massive increase in human CO2 emissions, global warming stopped"

http://c3headlines.typepad.com/.a/6a010536b58035970c017d4065d134970c-pi

Weinkle et al. found no change in the frequency and strength of landfalling hurricanes in the five main hurricane basins during the past 50-70 years (http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/admin/publication_files/2012.04.pdf).

Chenoweth and Devine found no change in the behavior of Atlantic tropical cyclones over the past 370 years (http://econpapers.repec.org/article/sprclimat/v_3a113_3ay_3a2012_3ai_3a3_3ap_3a583-598.htm).

These studies support economic analyses that find no long-term trend in hurricane damages once losses are adjusted for increases in population, wealth, and the consumer price index

http://www.ivm.vu.nlenImagesbouwer2011_BAMS_tcm53-210701.pdf

Now, if you want to debate the SCIENCE and the DATA, and the FINDINGS, be my guest. You can ad hominem me or my sources all day but I'd be more interested in knowing why you don't doubt the motives and nature of the people who keep claiming that the "science" proves something that it does not, and never has, PROVEN.

Scientific truth is arrived at by research, evidence, and verifiable-duplicate-able testing and observation. It has never, EVER, been arrived at based on popular vote.

[-] 2 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

'BetsyR' - please don't be so shrill, defensive and obtuse. I actually do, do my homework and with no less diligence than you and I strongly encourage readers to peruse your linked "survey" paper - tho' I regard it more as an 'Obfuscation Strategy' paper : http://oss.sagepub.com/content/33/11/1477.full !!!

Re. your "The "professional experts" might work in the petroleum/related industries, but they are "The Association of Professional Engineers and Geoscientists of Alberta " APEGA. Duh." from above. Well 'BetsyR', what else do we know about Alberta, Canada ?!!! ''Tar Sands and Pipelines'' peut-etre ?!! So, should I 'Double Duh' your 'Duh' back to you now, lol ?!

As M.Lefsrud & E.Meyer say themselves : "What is more, the fact that we study experts who work as corporate representatives and/or policy advisors makes apparent the social and political dimensions of this framing controversy. The influences of individual 'experts on decision-making' is dependent on their embeddedness within their organizations." So can anyone detect a theme here ? If not - then I strongly recommend your link to all readers, so that they can see for themselves.

Furthermore, re. your own : "Now, if they were all "petroleum" vampires only interested in their jobs and money, you'd think they'd have all agreed that a) global warming is NOT happening (which they did not) and b) that they would have overwhelmingly said that human emissions are not at all to blame (which ... they did not)" - Well, a) of course they can't "deny" that for which there is so much ample evidence & b) of course they can not say that because they are scientists who presumably can see the evidence too - so your rhetorical attempts to construct a 'straw man' counter argument serve you poorly here, I think.

We can trade references, quotes and papers all day but never the twain shall meet here. I find much of you say and link to be specious, tendentious and tenuous & maybe you can feel the same way and say the same. The scientific consensus that I see - you do not and you seek to undermine it. I've now read, listened to and watched much on the issue of AGW & I have come to my position over a long period of time. There IS massive scientific consensus about the what and the why & I too accept this now. See :

I am also, these days extremely interested in the sources of 'denialist funding' and so I again append :

So, I'll re-repeat that : "Climate of Doubt" describes the 'Libertarian' individuals and groups behind a well organized effort to attack science by actually undermining scientists & to try to unseat politicians - who say they believe there is current climate change caused by human activity. This excellent doc. film also investigates the funding which powers the sceptic movement in the name of free market, anti-regulation, small government causes and finds that funding has shifted away now from the fossil fuel companies to more ideological and less public sources. For further insight, please also see the following short video :

I note that you have actually chosen to totally ignore my core points so as I'm in a rush now, I'll leave by echoing them again here : How can we, as a sentient species, consider that we can bypass the Carbon Cycle and extract huge amounts of carbon based fuels, burn them & then almost instantly (in geological time) return this carbon to the atmosphere Without There Being Any Repercussions ?! Is that rational ?!!

That Carbon Dioxide even tho' it is essential to life via photo-synthesis, is also a 'Greenhouse Gas' is undeniable.The Greenhouse Effect is well understood and without it life on this planet would not exist. We owe our previously relatively stable climate to this, and the level of CO2 has been pretty stable at 300ppm (0.03%) for a very, very long time (verifiable from ice and lake sediment cores). However, that proportion has risen in the last 50 years to ~390ppm (0.039%) which is a 30% increase in CO2 levels.

Further, both water vapour and methane are also greenhouse gases and the level of both will also rise with rising global temperatures by 'positive feedback'.A Human Influenced and also possible 'run away' Greenhouse Effect is empirically, scientifically and mathematically possible, so the question is do we accept or 'believe' that it is happening ? And do we as a species, really wish to do anything about it ?!

As you yourself so say :"Your paranoia and refusal to even consider the data without suspicion or bias indicates there's no use debating with you."& so I may as well ditto that back to you and we'll agree to disagree but do feel free to bump my thread some more and so thanx again in anticipation of the same.

fiat lux et ad iudicium ...

[-] 1 points by vaprosvyeh (-400) 1 year ago

"How can we, as a sentient species, consider that we can bypass the Carbon Cycle and extract huge amounts of carbon based fuels, burn them & then almost instantly (in geological time) return this carbon to the atmosphere Without There Being Any Repercussions ?! Is that rational ?!! "

I'll answer that with this question- How can we as a sentient species who is relatively NEW upon this planet geologically speaking, believe that all of the natural forces on this planet that have driven CO2 and temperatures both UP AND DOWN for eons suddenly all went dormant when we started burning fossil fuel? Is that rational?

How can you, as a sentient person, believe that the system called the "carbon pump", our oceans, which cover 2/3 of this planet and which scientists will tell you (consensus?) they know "very little about", has very little (if anything) to do with what goes on in our atmosphere? Is that rational?

I'm perfectly willing to accept that human CO2 MIGHT be causing the warming. But I'm not willing to accept that IT IS unless all the other factors can be ruled out entirely. I'm willing to read all the research from BOTH sides and compare and contrast and determine for myself what makes the most sense. Which means I don't give a rats behind who is PAYING for the scientific research to be done. Unless there is proof that the results are FAKE or WRONG it's still DATA.

You seem to believe that since "group X" is evil, then everything they offer their evil money to is automatically evil too. There are rich, evil people on BOTH sides of this argument so I must ask you, are you just as suspicious of the sources you gather your science from? Do you dispute every paper or study in which evil "leftist" has been accepted?

We know the government is corrupt. We know that government officials accept money and gifts and bribes etc from people who want to push their agendas. But you seem to believe that government funded scientists are above being affected by such things. That they are "exceptional" for some reason, and therefore should be trusted completely. Even when their predictions prove to be WRONG over and over and over.

There is EMPIRICAL evidence that CO2 lags temperatures, that the ocean outgases CO2, that the CO2 signature from burning fossil fuels is exactly the same as volcanic CO2, and that there are literally thousands of active volcanic regions in the oceans that are JUST being discovered. Why are you ignoring that empirical evidence when it scientifically and mathematically makes an alternative theory possible?

The actual, modern readings and empirical evidence is that human CO2 has risen steadily over the past 16 years and yet temperatures have not. But you don't seem to "accept or believe" the evidence. As a species, I think we have a moral imperative to figure out WHY.

[-] 2 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

Oh Betsy, your persistent missives are touching but somewhat misplaced as I'm thoroughly spoken for and answering questions with other questions may be coquettish but it isn't really answering anything !!

So in reply, re. - "How can we as a sentient species who is relatively NEW upon this planet geologically speaking, believe that all of the natural forces on this planet that have driven CO2 and temperatures both UP AND DOWN for eons suddenly all went dormant when we started burning fossil fuel?" Ummm, who's believing that about 'dormancy' BR ? Not me ! However, Vulcanism and the 'Carbon Pump' are a given ... whereas the mass extraction & release of ancient hydro-carbons is NOT !! This is the core point really !!!

I'm glad that you"are perfectly willing to accept CO2 MIGHT be causing warming" because without the Greenhouse Effect life on Earth would be impossible. The fundamental question is do changes in this have implications for Global Climate? For example, a thawing tundra releasing methane as well changed and warmer ocean currents releasing deep sea methane-hyrdates are another of the added factors of 'positive-feedback'. As is the 'Albedo Effect' of darker open water absorbing more of the sun's energy.

I'm glad that you're willing to read 'both sides' however I DO give more than a rat's ass about where the funding is coming form. I have a big problem with secretive, corporate, right-wing 'Libertarian' types like the http://donorstrust.org/ . The 'why?' is all encapsulated in :

Which describes the 'Libertarian' individuals and groups behind a well organized effort to attack science by actually undermining scientists & to try to unseat politicians - who say they believe there is current climate change caused by human activity.

This excellent doc. film also investigates the funding which powers the sceptic movement in the name of free market, anti-regulation, small government causes and finds that funding has shifted away now from the fossil fuel companies to more ideological and less public sources.

Something is afoot 'BetsyR' and the patterns of weather, climate and atmospheric composition are in a state of flux worldwide and unless there is a massive worldwide conspiracy of scientists across several disciplines out to dupe us all, then I'll have to go with the consensus scientific opinion as evidenced by :

I shall quote the conclusion from the last link, here : "We have shown that longwave downward radiation flux increases at Earth’s surface can be accurately measured, subdivided and explicitly explained and backed with model calculations as cloud-, temperature-, water vapour- and enhanced greenhouse gas radiative forcing effect. Large differences on uncorrected longwave downward radiation measurements, which are caused by local effects such as cloud variability and temperature and humidity variations can be properly accounted for.Thus the resulting uniform increase of longwave downward radiation manifests radiative forcing that is induced by increased greenhouse gas concentrations and water vapor feedback, and proves the ‘‘theory’’ of greenhouse warming with direct observations."

What was physics in 2004 'BetsyR', remains physics today. You don't subscribe to AGW - I do but I appreciate your billet doux !!

ad iudicium ...

[-] 1 points by vaprosvyeh (-400) 1 year ago

So nothing new huh?

Funny, your comment about "what was physics in 2004 remains physics today". I wonder why it that the "physics" used in the 2007 IPCC report were all wrong about where this planet would be 5 years later? Why did so many of their predictions based on "physics" fail to occur? Maybe the planet just doesn't agree with their physics?

[-] 4 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

You are still querulous to the end and yes, "so nothing new" ;

You're not engaging 'the old' so what's the point of any 'new' ?

You don't really believe in A.G.W. yet alas I quite clearly do ;

So thanx for trying & once again thanx for your "billet doux" !!

ne quid nimis ...

PS : Re 'the new', do try "The Cleantech Revolution" :

spero meliora ...

[-] 3 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

Here you go 'BetsyR', no poems - just prose, so now breath, read but please don't become apoplectic :

Also, please note ''The Cleantech Revolution'' (Video), edit above.

respice, adspice, prospice ...

[-] -2 points by DKAtoday (28242) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

Vapid is Bitsey? No wonder I mistake her for trashy. Both are a waste of space.

[-] -3 points by Shayneh (-482) 1 year ago

I want to know at what temperature we should shoot for? I mean if climate change is a problem and we have weather extremes what should be the "mean" temprature?

Anyone have a clue or an answer?

[+] -4 points by DKAtoday (28242) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

Have you heard? President Obama made a surprise announcement about Keystone XL in his climate address on Tuesday. Obama made it clear that he won't approve Keystone if it harms the climate, because making global warming worse is not in the "national interest."

We know it will DESTROY the climate, causing as much damage as 51 dirty coal plants*, and so does President Obama. Over one million of us already sent that message to the State Department in April. So what the president is really asking is that we turn up the volume, and make it inescapably obvious that Keystone is a climate-killer. And to do that, I need your help.

We want to run ads like this one all over D.C. this summer—so everywhere Obama and his staff go, they're confronted by the fact that they know Keystone XL is a bad idea for the climate—and what's more that we know they know it.

  • If we raise $500, we can place the ad online everywhere Obama and his White House staff click.
  • If we raise $5,000, we can place the ad in a billboard near the White House and the EPA.
  • And if we raise $10,000, we can run a TV version on the ad on Obama's favorite channel, ESPN.

It doesn't take a genius to realize that building a massive oil pipeline to tap a previously un-mined source of dirty oil will make global warming worse. That's why NASA expert Jim Hansen said approving Keystone would be "game over" for the climate. But the State Department has found—in an oil company-funded study**—that Keystone XL would have NO effect on the climate. So President Obama has laid down a challenge for us—prove that the State Department is wrong.

Fortunately, we have several powerful ways to answer that challenge. We can fight for Gina McCarthy to be confirmed as EPA Director, since the EPA has already pushed back against Keystone XL's carbon pollution. And we can keep speaking out about the State Department's ludicrious, oil-soaked report. Finally, we can demand that Barack Obama do what he knows is right, since he has the final decision. To get this done, we are launching a new ad right now to make President Obama do the right thing. Can you click here to chip in a few dollars so we can get the ads online right away, while Obama's big climate speech is still in the news?

It is a great victory for the movement stop Keystone XL that Obama is even talking about carbon pollution in the same breath as the tar sands. We can't just wait for him to decide—we have to keep fighting to make sure we win the argument and show him how passionate we are and how closely we are following this issue. And that means repeating over and over again our message as visibly as possible—No on Keystone XL, which would be Game Over for the climate!

Thank you for being in the fight, Jesse Bacon, Field Organizer Environmental Action

*Cooking the Books: The True Climate Impact of Keystone XL, David Turnbull Oil Change International, April 16, 2013

**API Spent $22 Million Lobbying for Keystone XL; State Dept Contractor ERM an API Member, Steve Horn, DeSmogBlog, June 26,2013


TWEET & TWEET

http://www.webaction.org/site/R?i=cOoGTLZ1lfbJeTQhhaIbRQ

http://www.webaction.org/site/R?i=9-y2mXxfv-iLF1WLgJawkg

[-] 1 points by JasonWyngarde (-2) 1 year ago

Unfortunately the phrase he used was "if this project does not significantly exacerbate the problem of carbon pollution" Sounds like he wanted to give himself some wriggle room for the future.

[-] -2 points by DKAtoday (28242) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

Exactly - what is pointed out in further detail in the included articles. He said if the state department determins - well - WTF they hired the industry to draw their own conclusions. What is being asked for here is support in calling for a rejection of keystoneXL - regardless of what the state department may say.

[+] -4 points by DKAtoday (28242) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

Thank President Obama today for delivering the leadership we need on global warming.

Earlier this year, President Obama promised that if Congress didn’t act on global warming, he would. Today, he delivered on that promise by announcing a new climate action plan.

In the last year, more than 3 million Americans, including Environment America supporters like you, called on the president to act on global warming. Today, we can celebrate.

Join me in thanking the president for leading on global warming.

America is already paying a steep price for the severe weather fueled by global warming. Protecting our families and our planet from even more devastating consequences in the future demands bold action.

Today, in recognition of this reality, President Obama delivered the leadership we need. His plan will:

  • limit global warming pollution from new and existing power plants,
  • advance energy efficiency programs, including higher standards for new appliances,
  • boost support for solar power and wind power, and
  • increase U.S. leadership in international efforts to combat global warming.

It’s going to be hard to keep future generations safe from the impacts of global warming.

Today, thanks in part to your action and support, President Obama took a big step in the right direction.

I hope you join me in thanking the president.

And thank you for making it all possible.

Yours,

Margie Alt Executive Director Environmen​t America


What I added to the letter:

PS - Get all members of government ( state and federal ) to work on ending the export of Oil Gasoline LNG - as this is being done for Fossil Fuel Profits "ALONE" and seriously undermines the efforts to reduce Atmospheric Pollution - we need to reduce drilling and fracking ( as we move to end it completely ) NOT EXPAND. You want natural gas??? Work on getting/making it safely for our environment = AIR SOIL & Ground water. Capture sewer gas and landfill gas and create gas with recycling bio material = waste from farm crops and such ( then recycle the plant matter back to the fields as NATURAL Fertilizer ).

End Fossil Fuel subsidies and double down on clean tech green tech - Power generation - Fuel - transportation - Industry.

[-] 2 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

Thanx for your many valuable contributions on this thread. Whereas I have read and twinkled them all in acknowledgement, your comments seem to be being targeted for stinkling by multi-idented coropo-shills and other reactionaries. No matter and persevere and solidarity @ u.

pax ...

[-] -1 points by DKAtoday (28242) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

I just ignore the shills - or try to - as they are a waste of time and energy. This is a good post - a vital issue of our times - and should be kept in circulation as well as added to. {:-])

[-] 3 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

"The Fossil Fuel Industry Must Pay for Its Sins'', by Thom Hartmann :

ad iudicium ...

[-] -1 points by DKAtoday (28242) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

TWEET

DKAtoday ‏@DKAtoday

The Fossil Fuel Industry Must Pay for Its Sins http://truth-out.org/opinion/item/17315-the-fossil-fuel-industry-must-pay-for-its-sins#startOfPageId17315

Pls - read consider - SHARE

Let's Go Green Clean

End Fossil Fuel use

[Removed]

[+] -4 points by odumba (-8) 1 year ago

Translation: "climate change, means ANYTHING we want it to, so we are always right". and of course...the remedy is...more regulation, higher taxes, and less industry,. Bottom line, these ignorant LIARS want a regression in the American Economy so they can feel better about their self loathing and guilt for any industrial progress.

[-] 2 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

Ok numpty - let's get serious now !!! Here's a link for adults only !! Can you handle it ?!

It's not an overly long paper but if it's too much like hard work for you, skip to conclusions and work back perhaps.

fiat lux ...

[-] 2 points by owsarmy (300) 1 year ago

You are absolutely wrong. It is dangerous and self destructive to follow your childish, ignorant, ideas.

[Removed]

[+] -4 points by chuckuschumer (-366) 1 year ago

Posted By Michael Bastasch,

Author Zac Unger was originally drawn to the arctic circle to write a “mournful elegy” about how global warming was decimating the polar bear populations. He was surprised to find that the polar bears were not in such dire straits after all.

“There are far more polar bears alive today than there were 40 years ago,” Unger told NPR in an interview about his new book, “Never Look a Polar Bear in The Eye.” “There are about 25,000 polar bears alive today worldwide. In 1973, there was a global hunting ban. So once hunting was dramatically reduced, the population exploded.”

“This is not to say that global warming is not real or is not a problem for the polar bears,” Unger added. “But polar bear populations are large, and the truth is that we can’t look at it as a monolithic population that is all going one way or another.”

According to the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, there are an estimated 20,000 to 25,000 polar bears worldwide, living in Canada, Greenland, the northern Russian coast, islands of the Norwegian coast, and the northwest Alaskan coast.

Polar bears became a focal point for environmentalists after former Vice President Al Gore featured them in his 2006 global warming documentary, “An Inconvenient Truth.” The bears were classified as a threatened species under the Endangered Species Act to in May 2008 because their habitat was being threatened by global warming.

Unger wanted to write the definitive book on how man-made global warming was destroying polar bear habitats and leading to their extinction. He packed up his family and moved north to Churchill, Manitoba — called the ”Polar Bear Capital of the World” because of the large amounts of bears that congregate near it in the autumn.

“My humble plan was to become a hero of the environmental movement,” Unger told NPR. “I was going to go up to the Canadian Arctic, I was going to write this mournful elegy for the polar bears, at which point I’d be hailed as the next coming of John Muir and borne aloft on the shoulders of my environmental compatriots.”

“So when I got up there, I started realizing polar bears were not in as bad a shape as the conventional wisdom had led me to believe, which was actually very heartening, but didn’t fit well with the book I’d been planning to write,” he added.

Climate Change is a hoax,...wake up.

[-] 4 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

Naah !!! You're the hoax Chucky !! Bet you didn't even read the forum-post or click on a single link here, did you ?! So Chucky, time to look into a mirror darkly and see what is reflected as you ask yourself 'The Grail Question' - "Who Do You Serve ?"

Here you go Chucky, put your "Libertopian" (Copyright GF) bollocks aside for 75 minutes and try to see what OWS is all about :

fiat lux ...

[+] -4 points by chuckuschumer (-366) 1 year ago

Bet you didn't even read my post.

"Libertopian" Interesting. What's that,a Liberal Utopian? A Libertarian Utopian? Coming from GF that most likely means something as mindless as a douchebag. That's usually her level of discourse.

Here's one for you and GF...You're both a "Progtard". That's a Progressive Retard. Simple and true.

[-] 4 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

GF called you a "douchebag" ?!!! Awwwww, de-dums, did she upset you ?!! I hope she offered you some Kleenex ! Also, you just bet and lost Chucky ! Or course I read your b-s post even tho' it was written by someone else - just on the slim chance that it was vaguely sensible !! Btw, it's 'Libertarian Utopian' and you'll geT iT if you jusT focus on The T !!!

Keep it up with the bumps and the killer jokes Chucky, as with a razor sharp wit likes yours - you'll go far and maybe even make it to the county line - one day ;-)

per aspera ad astra ...

[-] 3 points by Buttercup (1067) 1 year ago

I'm guessing you identify more with the Tea Party. Which are just intellectually challenged libertarians. I don't think you're smart enough to even realize you're spouting libertarian crap. You probably don't even know what libertarian philosophy is. Except what Rand Paul and the Koch Bros. tell you.

[-] -3 points by chuckuschumer (-366) 1 year ago

Here you go again,you are projecting whatever simpleton bullshit you can dream up. Your guesses are just as full of shit as your "thinks" and "probably's" and projections.

Try another strategy,this one's lame and predictably pathetic.

[-] 5 points by Buttercup (1067) 1 year ago

If I'm wrong correct me.

Go ahead. Look it up. Libertarian. Right wing anarchism. Who knew huh? You're an anarchist and didn't even know it. Not that there's anything wrong with that. It's the 'right wing' part that's the real problem.

[-] -3 points by chuckuschumer (-366) 1 year ago

Projections all projections. Don't you ever get tired of being wrong.

[-] 5 points by Buttercup (1067) 1 year ago

Come on you love the Tea Party. Just admit it. Lots of people do. It's fine.

[-] -3 points by chuckuschumer (-366) 1 year ago

You're a Leftist Progtard that loves Obama right? You're a low information voter right? You're clueless and devoid of intellect right? Go ahead and admit it.

[-] 5 points by Buttercup (1067) 1 year ago

You posted a piece by Arthur Herman and the AEI. Why else would you post libertarian crap if you're not a libertarian? That would be like me posting something from Robert Reich or Joseph Stiglitz, like this -

http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/regions/americas/united-states/121226/joseph-stiglitz-us-income-inequality?page=0,2

But saying I don't lean progressive. That wouldn't make alot of sense. See what I mean?

I don't think you know what libertarianism is. I don't think you know what the AEI is. I think you're just figuring this out now. It's fine. There's lots of things we don't know until we find out. That's the way we learn.

Low information is identifying with the tea party without knowing that it's libertarian. Or, being libertarian and not knowing that it's right wing anarchism. It's roots and foundation are based on anarchism. We all learn new things all the time. That's beneficial. Nothing to be embarrassed about.

I'm a moderate progressive. I think Pres. Obama's sensibilities are in the right place. But there's a large gap between progressive sensibilities and the right wing anarchists in Congress.

[+] -4 points by chuckuschumer (-366) 1 year ago

No,you are a low information voter. You've demonstrated that by all your posts and your apparent love affair with "Obama's sensibilities". You voted for Obama again without ay regard to any facts of what a failure he was and still is.

You don't care about facts. You care about Ideology and the Progressive agenda. You don't care about reality,you see things not as they are but as you think they should be and that's all that matters to you. You believe that America is wrong,unjust and unfair. You don't believe in a persons right to defend themselves. You believe in living under a tyranny,under the thumb of the Government.

You don't let information get in the way of believing whatever you want to believe about anything. The truth and facts are something to be ignored.

Low information voter is what you are. You've shown that by continually voting for Obama when the facts and the truth of his failings and complete incompetence is well known. Because your ideology and Progressive agenda is far more important then the well being of the country.

You have to ignore the facts and close your eyes and plug your ears to the truth to continue believing Obama and the Democrats are working for the country instead of against the country.

You believe in Obama's agenda and he is destroying this country. You are a useful drone.

That would make you incredibly selfish.

[-] 5 points by Buttercup (1067) 1 year ago

Now that we have the nicities out of the way, what exactly is this tyranny you speak of?

'You believe that America is wrong,unjust and unfair' - I don't think that at all. I believe that we have had 30 years of bad economic policy. Trickle down economics/neoliberal economic polcies have been a terrible failure. Way past their expiration date.

'You don't believe in a persons right to defend themselves' - Sure I do. We have the right to reasonable self defense. This is rooted in common law and case law. I don't think military explosives are reasonable.

'You believe in living under a tyranny,under the thumb of the Government' - uh nooooo. I believe that government has a role to play for the benefit of a civilized society, that promotes the general welfare. Through policies that provide a foundation of opportunity for the majority of people. Basically, the opposite of right wing neoliberal/supply side policies. In what way do you believe neoliberal economic policies have been successful?

'he is destroying this country' - That is your opinion. Give me a specific policy example of how you believe he is destroying the nation. ie: taxes, stimulus, social policy. I can't respond to the generalities of your perceptions. You're giving me your opinion without providing any supporting evidence of this so-called destruction. What specifically do you perceive as so destructive and why.

'That would make you incredibly selfish' - I'm sorry you feel that way. We happen to disagree about libertarianism is all. I don't believe in right wing anarchism. As a general rule. You do. That's fine. Tell me why you think libertarianism is a better philosophy than a moderate progressive one.

[-] -3 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 1 year ago

Obama is not representing the peace that the humans in the world need to prosper

Obama cannot say raise tax without saying tax cuts

He has made the US look weak while giving into every whim of thew world bank

[+] -4 points by chuckuschumer (-366) 1 year ago

" what exactly is this tyranny you speak of?" 'he is destroying this country' - "That is your opinion. Give me a specific policy example of how you believe he is destroying the nation."

This is the perfect example of a willfully ignorant Leftist and clueless low information Obama voter.

[-] 3 points by Buttercup (1067) 1 year ago

Right. You have no basis to support your beliefs because you have no idea what you're talking about. Got it. I figured as much.

[-] -3 points by chuckuschumer (-366) 1 year ago

You don't need me to show you the truth it's all around you everyday,all you have to do is open your eyes,ears and mind and you'll be surprised how ridiculous your questions and assumptions really are.

[-] -1 points by GirlFriday (17435) 1 year ago

No, that's you dodging the questions. I was really hoping that you would actually begin to.........open up. You know, share.

It is always so lovely to follow your postings.

[Removed]

[+] -4 points by chuckuschumer (-366) 1 year ago

Jesus H. Christ,...Hansen is a Psychopath. Jimmy needs medication and a straight jacket.

This is nothing but absolute psycho-rant bullshit. This is the type of crazy rantings Hitler use to do. I'm glad you provided this example of what kind of insanity we are up against.

Hansen must have cracked from being under so much pressure at NASA.

[-] 2 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

Consider - ad hominem twaddle doesn't cut it or an argument make !!! Who is this "we" you are referring to ?!! The ALEC / Corporate "we" ?! There are numerous links you can learn from on this thread, but here's another :

sic transit gloria mundi ...

[-] -1 points by chuckuschumer (-366) 1 year ago

aegri somnia vana ....

[-] 4 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

"Climate Of Doubt" - (A PBS / 'FRONTLINE' Doc.) :

"Climate of Doubt" describes the 'Libertarian' individuals and groups behind a well organized effort to attack science by actually undermining scientists and to try to unseat politicians who say they believe there is current climate change caused by human activity. This film also investigates the funding which powers the sceptic movement in the name of free market, anti-regulation, small government causes and finds that funding has shifted away from fossil fuel companies to more ideological & less public sources.

So who are these 'free market think tanks' & 'institutes' behind this pseudo-libertarian crusade ?

The only 'sick man's dream' I would worry about is ALEC and associated Koch Head delusions. Gaze into a mirror darkly & see what you see and ask yourself 'The Grail Question' - "Who Do You Serve ?"

temet nosce ...

EDIT : Corrected Link - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A5GVHqlnPAc [Thanx TM!]

[-] 2 points by TrevorMnemonic (5827) 1 year ago

Great post!

James Hansen on climate change - simply explained - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fWInyaMWBY8

(ps climate of a doubt link is not working)

[-] 3 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

"Climate Of Doubt" - New Corrected Link :

I highly recommend this excellent documentary to all readers here.

Many thanx for heads up & your great 'TED' link Trevor. Solidarity !

pax ...

[+] -4 points by beautifulworld (20523) 1 year ago

To scare everyone, and, in addition: "Greenland and Antarctica 'have lost four trillion tonnes of ice' in 20 years"

"Greenland losing ice five times faster than early 1990s"

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2012/nov/29/greenland-antarctica-4-trillion-tonnes-ice

[-] 3 points by inclusionman (7064) 1 year ago
[-] 0 points by beautifulworld (20523) 1 year ago

Very nice. From the cheat sheet: "The vast majority of scientists, approximately 97%, believe that climate change is driven by humans."

[-] 4 points by inclusionman (7064) 1 year ago

If only the MSM wouldn't engage in false equivalency by presenting the remaining 3% of denier scientists, as the same as those 97% climate change believing scientists.

That would be nice. Honest, and useful.

[-] 3 points by inclusionman (7064) 1 year ago

Action Alert. Occupy tar sands week

http://www.tarsandsblockade.org/weekofaction/

Get active. Save the earth

[-] 4 points by beautifulworld (20523) 1 year ago

Awesome. Thanks.

[-] 3 points by inclusionman (7064) 1 year ago

Occupy is still active. This is the proof for the naysayers.

[-] -3 points by vaprosvyeh (-400) 1 year ago

Here's what is behind the whole 97% thing:

http://content.usatoday.com/communities/sciencefair/post/2010/06/scientists-overwhelmingly-believe-in-man-made-climate-change/1#.UTk4dzeNBpU

"This data comes from a new survey out this week in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences.

The study found that 97 percent of scientific experts agree that climate change is "very likely" caused mainly by human activity.

The report is based on questions posed to 1,372 scientists. Nearly all the experts agreed that it is "very likely that anthropogenic greenhouse gases have been responsible for most of the unequivocal warming of the Earth's average global temperature in the second half of the twentieth century."

Do you understand what you just read?

97% of 1,372 scientists surveyed IS NOT THE SAME THING AS 97% of ALL scientists. Do you have any idea what the number of all scientists IS? Does the number 1,372 correlate as an accurate "survey sample" of the total?

And "very likely that anthropogenic greenhouse gases have been responsible for most of the unequivocal warming of the Earth's average global temperature in the second half of the twentieth century." IS NOT THE SAME THING AS "believes that climate change is driven by humans".

There's a reason scientists use specific terms and words rather than wild generalizations. It's usually because they want YOU to understand exactly what they ARE saying, so you don't interpret is as something they are NOT saying.

That cheat sheet....wasn't produced by a scientist. It wasn't approved by climate scientists. It used cherry picked data and statements that are a disservice to real scientists and the general public. And you call it "very nice".

Why?

[-] 1 points by inclusionman (7064) 1 year ago

Maybe when the corp 1% oligarchs hear from their political puppets that their money is at risk they will relent on the obstruction instructions.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/27/nyregion/new-york-state-bonds-include-warning-on-climate-change.html

You think?

[-] 1 points by beautifulworld (20523) 1 year ago

Again, "The vast majority of scientists, approximately 97%, believe that climate change is driven by humans."

Surveying over 1,000 scientists is a significant sample statistically. Thank you.

[+] -5 points by vaprosvyeh (-400) 1 year ago

Fine. It's a significant sample.

Now address what those scientists actually AGREED on. They agreed that anthropogenic greenhouse gases are "very likely" responsible for "most" of the unequivocal warming of the Earth's average global temperature in the second half of the twentieth century". PERIOD.

[-] 1 points by beautifulworld (20523) 1 year ago

"Global Temperatures Highest in 4,000 Years," by Justin Gillis, NY Times, March 8, 2013.

“We and other living things can adapt to slower changes,” Dr. Mann said. “It’s the unprecedented speed with which we’re changing the climate that is so worrisome.”

PERIOD.

[-] -2 points by beautifulworld (20523) 1 year ago

Really? -6 in 1 hour? For posting a NY Times article about global temperature increases? Trolls, rot in hell. That is where you will find yourselves, you heartless, unfeeling, uncaring, sick psychopathic excuses for human beings.

[-] 5 points by TrevorMnemonic (5827) 1 year ago

yah I had a post railing against the Keystone XL where I got negative 5 on every comment I made. And that was after many of them were originally plus. The trolls love making multiple accounts to try and change the way it looks like the forum views certain topics.

They never justify it with a response either... instead they hide behind their downvotes like cowards.

[-] 2 points by beautifulworld (20523) 1 year ago

It's very telling. This movement is far more important than any of us realize. We must forge on through the muck and never give up!

[-] 8 points by TrevorMnemonic (5827) 1 year ago

Any movement that questions capitalism will face extreme opposition and an onslaught of propaganda against them.

[-] 8 points by beautifulworld (20523) 1 year ago

Exactly right. And, any economic system that tells human beings, "nah, you don't need a living f'ing wage, go rot," is a sick sick system and one that needs to be changed. Wake up people! It doesn't have to be like this.

[-] -1 points by DKAtoday (28242) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

Wake up people! It doesn't have to be like this.

Sing - it , SING-IT LOUD AND CLEAR!!!

[-] 3 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 1 year ago

How we market ourselves is important. While we should never be dishonest though,

We should put the facts out there, and let the people decide for themselves

It was not my view when i first came here that capitalism couldn't take us to 'where we wanted, where we HAVE to go,' but it is now

~Odin~

[-] 1 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 1 year ago

True, but....The More You Know......sorry....lol.....;-)

We can start off with 'crony' or 'unfettered' captalism, and let people decide from there, which is the sojourn that I took

The labor movement in this country in the early 20th century had tons of commies, and socialists in it

Reformers and radicals have a long history of working well together in this country

By having these 'radicals', we ended up getting much more than we would have without them in the New Deal

I've heard it said, the assault on the 99% began the day after the New Deal was signed into law

And all this though is probably what gave McCarthy some of the traction he needed in his fear campaign, as they were then able not only to start building the MID, but simultaneously they started to crush unions

~Odin~

[-] 1 points by satohirona (-20) 1 year ago

So what?

[-] 1 points by TrevorMnemonic (5827) 1 year ago

That's a loaded question.

[-] 2 points by beautifulworld (20523) 1 year ago

The answer is that the economic system of capitalism has become embedded in the brains of Americans in the same way that the sun rises and sets everyday. They think it is some kind of organic outgrowth, that we must live with it like we live with the soil and the trees we see day in and day out. But, it's not, it's man made, and it's fallible and it's not working. It's become antiquated. It was a result of the Protestant Reformation and the Industrial Revolution, but we now live in an age of technological revolution and globalization and we need an new economic system to work for the masses of people whose survival depends on it.

[-] 2 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

Reviewing the thread revealed your gem ! Thanx !! Very Strong Comment !!! Further to which, fyi :

No reply needed or indeed possible lol but solidarity @ u & yrs nvrthlss.

pax et lux ; nunc et semper ; hic et ubique ...

[-] -1 points by satohirona (-20) 1 year ago

So what if we will face "extreme opposition and an onslaught of propaganda", we still need to destroy capitalism. Nobody said it would be easy.

[-] 3 points by GirlFriday (17435) 1 year ago

Trollin, Trollin, Trollin,

[-] 2 points by TrevorMnemonic (5827) 1 year ago

Nobody said it would be easy

that's a good translation of me essentially saying it's going to be hard. You're going to face an onslaught of opposition and propaganda.

[-] -2 points by DKAtoday (28242) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

TRUTH - plain and simple = TRUTH

[-] 2 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 1 year ago

Again, "Nothing that is worthwhile is ever easy. Remember that [everyone]."...Nicholas Sparks

Solidarity

~Odin~

[-] 3 points by beautifulworld (20523) 1 year ago

Very true.

[-] -2 points by DKAtoday (28242) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

Consider it as having a nasty cheer-leading fan club.

They won't comment as they do not want to be identified and booted.

[-] 4 points by GypsyKing (9780) 1 year ago

Yeah, sombodies got their bots/sock-puppets working on you big time.

I don't know why that stuff makes me so mad, but it does. I'm going to spend so Real time voting up your comments.

Such chicken-shits.

[-] 4 points by beautifulworld (20523) 1 year ago

You know, GK, what bothers me the most is what these people stand for. They are morally depraved in every way. They can have the stinking points. I merely wish they would open up their hearts.

[-] 4 points by GypsyKing (9780) 1 year ago

Exactly. It isn't the points, it's what it says about their lack of character!

I'm going to vote you up a hundred points during the course of the next day ot two myself.

[-] 4 points by beautifulworld (20523) 1 year ago

Thanks, ;). I, too, spend a lot of time voting because it's important to support the good messages.

[-] 3 points by GypsyKing (9780) 1 year ago

Yes, and if it's a consolation, they're losing the debate here now, and that's why they have so many bees up their pants.

[-] -3 points by satohirona (-20) 1 year ago

People here just vote for their friends and down vote their "enemies". Very few people vote for ideas. If usernames were hidden for a day, the points would change completely. Anyhow, even if everyone were to vote for ideas, it would still be an argumentum ad populum. The most popular ideas are not necessarily the best ones. For that reason, points are absolutely useless.

Haven't you heard of the Twinkle Team?

[-] 3 points by beautifulworld (20523) 1 year ago

Speak for yourself. You are the Master Twinkle Team all on your own with your multiple monikers and personalities. You are also someone who can't make it past 50 points.

[+] -8 points by DKAtoday (28242) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

Twinkle 10 fold - at least.

[+] -5 points by DKAtoday (28242) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

But hey!!!! There is a minority - very small minority ( bought and paid for ) that disagree. Is that not how things are being decided today? By the very wealthy minority?

[-] -3 points by beautifulworld (20523) 1 year ago

They are a minority of fools.

[+] -5 points by DKAtoday (28242) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

Yep - why is it that the majority does not see this (?) - and - ACT.

[-] 0 points by beautifulworld (20523) 1 year ago

Yes, WTFU people!!! If you can't survive on your measly pay and your government is raping and pillaging the environment, something is wrong!!! It does not have to be this way.

[+] -4 points by DKAtoday (28242) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

I want to tweet that comment. Do you Mind if I do?

[-] -1 points by beautifulworld (20523) 1 year ago

Not at all, DKA. You are voted down again for defending the masses. It's unreal, don't you think?

[+] -5 points by DKAtoday (28242) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

By the SICKophants of the totally greedy wealthy and the corpoRATions?

To be expected I guess.

Look at the down votes you garner from the creeps.

[-] -1 points by beautifulworld (20523) 1 year ago

Sick is the only word for anyone who fights for the 1%.

[+] -4 points by DKAtoday (28242) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

That AND BOUGHT

[+] -6 points by DKAtoday (28242) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

Tweeted

http://occupywallst.org/forum/climate-change-is-happening-now-a-carbon-price-mus/#comment-939883 Short message to be seen by all. Please SHARE/CIRCULATE. BTW - Wheres the RAGE???

[-] 2 points by GypsyKing (9780) 1 year ago

I just voted you both up - yet again - sigh.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (28242) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

Thx. Also consider the BS down-votes as nasty cheers. The more you get - the more you are disturbing the sell-outs/shills/trolls/corpoRATists/Greedy.

[-] 3 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

"To scare everyone" further : http://truth-out.org/news/item/13090-fossil-fuel-lobby-in-the-drivers-seat-at-doha - sad but true and thanx for your very good link which sincerely I recommend to all readers here.

fiat lux ...

[+] -4 points by beautifulworld (20523) 1 year ago

Anyone worried about the costs of this should consider:

"Rapid action before 2020 means far lower costs – less than one percent of global GDP when spread over a number of years. Delay means far higher costs and dubious strategies like massive biofuel plantations, more nuclear plants, and as yet unproven large-scale carbon capture and storage."

"Delay means dumping the enormous costs of action or the even larger costs from climate impacts on the next generation – our children and grandchildren”

Thanks for posting this important thread.

[-] 2 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

New knowledge of the way in which the destruction of the Arctic sea ice affects northern Europe and North America suggests that this is no longer true. A paper published earlier this year in 'Geophysical Research Letters', shows that Arctic warming is likely to be responsible for the extremes weather events now hammering these once temperate regions.

Further : "UN Secretary-General Says World is in a Race Against Time" (Video)

from which : "Ban Ki-Moon, the secretary-general of the United Nations has stated that the world is in a race against time against climate change. The COP18 UN Summit in Doha will conclude on Friday, giving the delegates two more days to agree on targets for cutting carbon emissions. The UN says climate change will cost developing countries up to $67 billion each year by 2030."

The fact that the Economy and the Environment are inextricably linked is clearly outside the capacity of Modern Industrial and High Finance Crapitalism with its extremely limited, restrictive and I would argue - 'enslaving' ideas behind 'Double Entry Book-keeping', to 'account' for. All of the 'Externalities' need to be 'internalised' and accounted for. Perhaps we actually need to envisage a 'new Triple Entry Book-keeping' system in future, with ''Debit, Credit & Socio-Economic / Environmental Factors". Just thinking out loud.

respice, adspice, prospice ...

[+] -4 points by beautifulworld (20523) 1 year ago

"The Arctic has been warming about twice as fast as the rest of the Northern Hemisphere, due to a combination of human emissions of greenhouse gases and unique feedbacks built into the Arctic climate system.

The jet stream, the study says, is becoming “wavier,” with steeper troughs and higher ridges. Weather systems are progressing more slowly, raising the chances for long-duration extreme events, like droughts, floods, and heat waves."

This is science telling us this. Are we going to listen? The polar bear will not be the only species affected. We humans will be affected.

It seems to me that the $67 billion per year is even meager.

The U.S. has spent $1,291 billion in the past 9 years on wars:

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0933935.html

While the U.S. has only pledged $2.7 billion to deal with climate change.

The big question: What poses more risk to us? Climate change or the phony fear-mongering of reactionaries and hate-filled culture wars?

And, your triple entry bookkeeping system might have value, lol, because costs aren't always financial, are they?

[-] -1 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

That "costs are not always financial" is very true and indeed, perhaps the concepts of 'Opportunity Cost' and 'Accounting for Externalities' really need for us to see beyond mere man-made money. Our shallow obsession as a species with the abstraction of 'money', is now a serious impediment to the survival of the species and health of the biosphere.

How we value things has to change and indeed, our whole 'value system' needs turning on its head, as the numbers you quote show so well. Thanx for that great link and re. 'Triple Entry Accounting', I append an oft quoted monograph on the matter, tho' I am still to try to digest it and tie it in with some developing thoughts of ''Debit, Credit & Socio-Economic / Environmental Factors" :

pax, amor et lux ...

[+] -5 points by beautifulworld (20523) 1 year ago

Interesting that you have been down-voted. What for? For saying that there are financial as well as other costs to treating the environment poorly?

I am almost finished reading "A Short History of Progress" by Ronald Wright. In this book he shows how, when civilizations become too greedy and lose sight of the resources they need for the future, they fail. They literally kill themselves by consuming the resources that they need to survive to the point of no return. We are not that far off from being in this situation now.

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

Re. "Short History of Progress", by Ronald Wright, indeed this book has been turned into an excellent 2011 documentary - which I watched earlier this year, called 'Surviving Progress', with as I recall, had Martin Scorsese and Mark Achbar ('The Corporation') connected to it. Your arresting comment, though portentous, has much value and is well worth more than a moment's quite reflection, I think.

The book even has a wiki { http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Short_History_of_Progress } and sounds extremely interesting. Thanx for your comment and heads up on that, which I'm taking as a genuine recommendation and re. the "down voting", well that's a wee price to pay for 'truth telling' no doubt.

Finally, another relevant link : http://www.ijis.iarc.uaf.edu/en/home/seaice_extent.htm .

dum vita est, spes est ...

[+] -5 points by beautifulworld (20523) 1 year ago

The Arctic Sea Ice Extent chart you linked to is indisputable. It is at an all time low in 2012. Here's another article on the subject:

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/weather/story/2012/09/20/arctic-sea-ice-melts-to-all-time-record-low/57808216/1

Thanks for the link to "A Short History of Progress." I encourage everyone to read this short book that covers world history with a focus on the environment and not really politics or economics, though they are all related and do interplay.

[-] 0 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

"Profit Pathology and Disposable Planet", by Dr. Michael Parenti :

and many thanks for your excellent link, which I recommend to all readers.

From your link : "Sea ice reflects more than 90 percent of the sun's heat off the Earth, but when it is replaced by the darker open ocean, more than half of the heat is absorbed into the water" - this is called 'The Albedo Effect' and is another thing that so many Anthropomorphic Climate Change Deniers & The Hired Corporate Shills seem so ignorant of. I do hope to get to read "A Short History of Progress", one day soon, as your recommendation is effusive and enthusing.

pax, amor et lux ...

[+] -5 points by beautifulworld (20523) 1 year ago

"Indeed, the function of the transnational corporation is not to promote a healthy ecology but to extract as much marketable value out of the natural world as possible even if it means treating the environment like a septic tank." But, as Parenti says "Don’t wealthy reactionaries and their corporate lobbyists inhabit the same polluted planet as everyone else, eat the same chemicalized food, and breathe the same toxified air?"

They sure do.

And, I just know you will enjoy that book. ;)

[-] -1 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

Thanx for the recommendation & I'll be getting that book in the new year I think. I actually owned a copy once but gave it away to my better half before I fully read it because I that thought she would appreciate it better and I'm actually very glad I did really. Without digressing further, your excerpted comment and the rhetorical question therein, got me to thinking that an actual answer to that quandary may lay here :

fallaces sunt rerum species ...

[+] -6 points by beautifulworld (20523) 1 year ago

Great point! LOL! "Our nation's responses to the climate crisis, the federal deficit, our economic stagnation and many of our other serious challenges are still being held hostage by people who manifest a detachment from reality as profound as that of schizophrenics."

[-] -1 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

A very deep seated sense of, entitlement, pseudo-superiority and abject disdain for their fellow human beings, characterises the 0.01% and I'm coming to believe that The International 'Darksider-Sith' Ruling Elites - [translation : 'Parasites' !] actually do NOT mind countless hundreds of millions of the rest of us perishing if it means more for them and less of us !

From the article : "We are still allowing a powerful elite, who behave like psychopaths, to steer our government towards protecting their interests at the expense of everyone else. The greatest threat to the United States will never be Al Qaeda, Russia, China or Iran. It will be our failure to wrest control of public policy from the inmates of our own insane asylum."

spero meliora ...

[+] -4 points by beautifulworld (20523) 1 year ago

This is why change is coming. The system currently in place is going to self-destruct and is already beginning to. All of the turbulence we are feeling right now in our societies and in our economic and political systems is the beginnings of watershed historical change. A shift is going to occur away from the fallout of the Industrial Revolution and the capitalism and nationalism that came with that to something that will work better with the technological change and globalization that has taken over. We simply cannot go on like this, with the parasites ruling the roost and running off with all the cash and raping and pillaging the earth. That is the old way of doing things and it just doesn't work anymore, and has become so deleterious that it will self-destruct.

[+] -8 points by DKAtoday (28242) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

That is why they are insane assholes = "Don’t wealthy reactionaries and their corporate lobbyists inhabit the same polluted planet as everyone else, eat the same chemicalized food, and breathe the same toxified air?"

[+] -9 points by DKAtoday (28242) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

Greentech media is a group I follow on twitter. Yes transitional process partners needs discussion.

Tweeted the Link : ( may others share as well )

GE, Siemens, Lynntech & Lockheed on Making Strategic Partnerships Work : Greentech Media http://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/ARPA-E-Livestream-GE-Siemens-Lynntech-and-Lockheed-on-Making-Strategic-P?utm_source=Newsletter&utm_medium=headline&utm_campaign=GTMDaily via @greentechmedia CONSIDER

[-] -2 points by repubsRtheprob (1209) 1 year ago

It's a little concerning that these huge multi national corps are a the center of some of the needed energy progress. But the truth is, infrastruture upgrades, e meters, even wind turbines & some battery tech will have to include big corps.

We will have to be watchful, & suspicious.

[+] -5 points by beautifulworld (20523) 1 year ago

I just don't get what is with people who want to brush aside what is biggest threat to humanity.

[+] -8 points by DKAtoday (28242) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

Some really do not care not the least little bit - because they are self serving have no love for others - and figure they will be dead before they would suffer from the consequences.

[+] -5 points by beautifulworld (20523) 1 year ago

Sadly true.

[+] -9 points by DKAtoday (28242) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

They must be removed from positions of power and influence.

[-] 2 points by inclusionman (7064) 1 year ago

Carbon price update!

http://www.eenews.net/public/Greenwire/2013/02/01/2

Cali in the lead!

[-] -3 points by beautifulworld (20523) 1 year ago

Of course the greedy grubbers will try to profit off saving the earth.

[-] 0 points by beautifulworld (20523) 1 year ago

Thanks. Great article.

"The study shows the recent heat spike “has no precedent as far back as we can go with any confidence, 11,000 years arguably,” said Pennsylvania State University professor Michael Man..."

[-] 4 points by inclusionman (7064) 1 year ago

Scary isn't it?

[-] 2 points by inclusionman (7064) 1 year ago

Action Alert, Tell Dems: get off your ass.!

http://action.biologicaldiversity.org/p/dia/action3/common/public/?action_KEY=12860

Please sign. Thx

[-] 3 points by inclusionman (7064) 1 year ago

It's shame we can't convince industry to save the earth except by introducing profit. Bastards.

[-] 2 points by inclusionman (7064) 1 year ago

Nothing good can come of this

oil & gas cos & environmentalists agree on fracking approval process

http://news.yahoo.com/both-sides-agree-tough-fracking-standards-170129217--finance.html

Have you heard anything about this.?

[-] 2 points by beautifulworld (20523) 1 year ago

"In agreeing to the self-policing system, members of the industry said they realized they needed to do more to reassure the public about the safety of fracking. On the other side, environmentalists said they came to the conclusion that the hundreds of billions of dollars in oil and gas underground is going to be extracted one way or another and that working with the industry is the quickest path to making the process safer."

I haven't heard about this, but thanks. I also think it sucks. It's the weak left again or total lack thereof in the U.S.

[-] 1 points by inclusionman (7064) 1 year ago

I'm afraid (paranoid?) that the environmental groups are faux groups created by oil/gas industry, and their 'board members' will tow the industry line.

In any event, it can provide unjustified coverage for politicians and as such...... 'Nothing good can come of this.'

Just sending up the flair.

[+] -7 points by DKAtoday (28242) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

Worse - the rate of loss of Arctic Antarctic and Glacial ice is expected to increase though it is said to be happening 60% faster then previous predictions already.

[+] -4 points by beautifulworld (20523) 1 year ago

"Arctic climate change is likely to have broad and sweeping repercussions well outside of the Far North."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/06/arctic-report-card-2012-global-warming_n_2250737.html?utm_hp_ref=green

[+] -7 points by DKAtoday (28242) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

Excellent article ( tweeted http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/06/arctic-report-card-2012-global-warming_n_2250737.html?utm_hp_ref=green ) - yes - the earth and it's atmosphere - comprise a naturally operating machine. We are currently feeding an effect of the machines operation - WARMING. But past a certain point - and - The Machine will feed itself on it's own stored energy warming fuels from the thawing regions addition of methane to the atmosphere as well as by the increased absorption of solar energy.

[+] -4 points by beautifulworld (20523) 1 year ago

We better start paying attention. I am reading a book right now "A Short History of Progress" and the author writes about how major climatic change can and has occurred over the span of just one short decade. So, what are we waiting for?

This?: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abrupt_climate_change

[+] -7 points by DKAtoday (28242) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

Exactly - what I am afraid of - and it is a very real possibility that no one is really putting forward yet ( and I think due to the resistance to the facts of global warming - and worry about getting denounced ) - is that we could see major changes in the environment within a very short period of time - due to synergistic effects of the rapid thawing we are experiencing.

There are predictions of lost coastline by the end of the century and ongoing into the next century - it is possible that we could see rapidly rising ocean levels long before the end of the century.

This does not take into account the increasing frequency of monster storms either.

Change should have been made in our operation ( industry and transportation ) when I was a child in grade school and was learning about pollution for the 1st time.

Climate change is happening faster then predicted and I think the rate of change will continue to accelerate.

[+] -4 points by beautifulworld (20523) 1 year ago

All possible and why we should take heed. There is evidence in the past that climate change can occur very quickly.

[+] -8 points by DKAtoday (28242) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

Yep - very quickly - like pretty much over night. It is why I will never stop advocating for immediate and profound change to our infrastructure to our industries to our Housing. We have got to stop extracting and burning fossil fuel.

[+] -5 points by DKAtoday (28242) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

Hmmmmm - check this out: ( from the Environmental Defense Action Fund )

President Obama just announced his nomination of Gina McCarthy to lead the Environmental Protection Agency.

This is big news. She's a veteran clean air advocate and her nomination shows that the President is serious about adopting scientific solutions to public health, environmental, and climate challenges.

Will you help us send an overwhelming message of support to the Senate today?

Sign our petition supporting Gina McCarthy as the new EPA chief and we'll deliver it directly to your senators.

There's no real reason for her nomination to get held up.

The Senate easily confirmed McCarthy in 2009 to head the clean air division of the EPA. And she's known as a fair-minded and dedicated public health official that has worked with both parties to find cooperative solutions that can save the environment in economically beneficial ways.

She's already helped secure historic public health safeguards at the EPA including life-saving standards to restrict soot, mercury, and other toxics — safeguards that will avert thousands of heart attacks and premature deaths each year and prevent tens of thousands of asthma attacks annually.

Let your senators know that we need an EPA chief who will listen to the science and public health officials, not industry lobbyists.

Help put a clean air and public health expert at the helm of the EPA.

Heather ShelbyThank you for your activism and support, HeatherShelbySignature Heather Shelby Action Network Coordinator

[+] -5 points by DKAtoday (28242) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

Got two minutes?

TWEETED :

Global warming is not only real, it's an artist too. (via @Upworthy) http://www.upworthy.com/artistic-depiction-of-climate-change-freaks-the-heck-out-of-people-on-the-street?g=2&c=upw1 GR8 approach to open eyes. pls SHARE

[-] 1 points by imagine40 (383) 1 year ago

Excellent. And here is the link to the creators ofthis and other videos on informing people on the effects of global warming.

http://adsoftheworld.com/media/ambient/david_suzuki_the_tideline_project

Thx

[+] -5 points by DKAtoday (28242) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

The people must have their eyes opened to what is happening - and it will take every form of communication available to make that happen - Bless the art project and all of the artists involved.

[-] 1 points by imagine40 (383) 1 year ago

David Suzuki and all voices like his (big and small) are the fuel that will rev up the engine of people powered outrage and action.

Well done.

[+] -6 points by DKAtoday (28242) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

People speaking out.

Fundamental change for the better for ALL will come through the involvement and actions of The People.

[-] 2 points by imagine40 (383) 1 year ago

We are on the same page.

[+] -4 points by DKAtoday (28242) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

Cool

[+] -5 points by smelllikepatchouli (-7) 1 year ago

ooooh...how scary...weather that changes. Oh my God... help us.

Hand wringing liberals shrieking to be taxed higher as they try to control the Earths temperature. What a bunch of arrogant and ignorant fools.

[-] -3 points by DKAtoday (28242) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

It would seem that you are the ignoramus.

[+] -4 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

Consider your (...x...) kicked by DKAt as that is what putting your empty head in the sand gets you around here !!! Did you even read the article or, perish the thought - open any links on this thread ?!! Don't be a dolt all your life !

nosce te ipsum ...

[+] -5 points by DKAtoday (28242) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

I did? I hope it was for good cause - {:-]) - who was that comment to?

[-] -1 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

Yep ! My comment was to that patchouli scented troll !! Just see you own comment to him above, lol !

fiat lux ...

[+] -4 points by DKAtoday (28242) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

LOL - well hardly a shining moment - it was an obvious easy call.

[+] -5 points by lignite (-303) 1 year ago

The UN is only blaming this on the so called Global warming, to try and drum up some funds for Al Gore and his cronies

[-] 2 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

"So called Global Warming" ?!!! Well what would you call it ?!! What have Al Gore or The UN to do with this ?! Did you read the article ?

fiat lux ...

[-] -2 points by lignite (-303) 1 year ago

Hurricanes have been around since Earth was formed

[-] 2 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

Yep, and the sun rises in the east and sets in the west. 'Lignite' huh ? That's 'brown coal' - you took your moniker from probably THE most polluting kind of coal, huh ? You should spew less smoke and consider the interconnectedness of our climate, environment and the wider world at large.

ad iudicium ...

[-] -1 points by blacksabre (-40) 1 year ago

Try volcanoes twit,...those have been spewing mega carbons since before you were ever told to hate SUV's and "BIG OIL"!!

[-] -3 points by janus2 (-387) 1 year ago

the scam of climate change. its all about control , over you, and your money . the only thing that can change the climate is the sun.

[-] 1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

And isn't forcing us to use oil a form of control.?

[+] -4 points by lignite (-303) 1 year ago

Global warming = redistribution of wealth and nothing else

[-] -3 points by janus2 (-387) 1 year ago

yes, redistribution of wealth + control over how people are allowed to live, as in " smart meters" .

[-] 3 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

I'm against the redistribution of wealth that has taken place in the last 30 years from the 99% to the 1%.

I'm also against the redistribution of wealth from the 99% that occurs every time the fossil fuel monopolies price gauge us at the gas pump or when I heat my home.

How about you?

[-] -3 points by janus2 (-387) 1 year ago

you're against capitalism, against people who are ambitious and succeed. you're all for equal outcome because thats " fair" . what garbage. dont like the price of fuel? it dosnt have to be as high as it is. allow drilling, allow the bakken field and marcellus field to be utilized. the usa has more oil and natural gas than the entire world but it doesnt mean a thing if you dont utilize it.

[-] 2 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

You don't speak for me! Not only do I support capitalism (not the mutation we have) but I have succeeded because of capitalism! (Real estate, & stock market investing)

I'm just against the 99% being screwed by the 1% oligarchs. You stand with those criminals who bought our govt. I stand with the 99% who want to take the govt back.

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[-] -1 points by janus2 (-387) 1 year ago

You succeeded. congratulations, you will be hit with massive new taxes starting january 2013. i'm sure you'll be thrilled to pay your " fair share" If as you say you are successful, why should you be penalized for it, you already pay taxes. with the govt , there is never enough money because they refuse to cut spending. what if you continuously spend more money than you have, you would go broke. would it be" fair "to have other people pay your bills while you continue to rack up more and more debt ?

[-] 1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

This Admin has already cut almost a trillion dollars in spending. They have also cut the $1.4T annual deficit Bush left us in 2009 to an estimated $900B in the 2013 budget.

My success is not relevant. I don't fall into the catagories of those getting tax increases. If I did. I would gladly pay my fair share. No tax increases discussed will create any pain what so ever for the wealthy.

We should raising tax rate to 90% for income over $1million.

[-] 2 points by freakyfriday (179) 1 year ago

What 2013 budget? We haven't had a budget passed since Obama took office?

[-] 2 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

Pres Obama submits a budget every year. Are you stuck in repub talking point land?

The last budget submitted (this past feb) by Pres Obama had an estimated $900B deficit.

[-] 1 points by freakyfriday (179) 1 year ago

And was it passed? Has any budget he has submitted during his reign passed? Seems to me the Senate slammed them all 90 something to whatever. As in NO DEMS WOULD EVEN VOTE FOR THEM

[-] 1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

So? The country still had to live within a budget, and we still have cut Bushs $1.4T 2009 budget to $900B est for 2013.

That's reality regardless of congressional inaction.

[-] -2 points by janus2 (-387) 1 year ago

you can raise taxes to 100% , it wont do a thing to pay off the debt. the only thing that will work is to cut the spending . one way or another the tax increases effect everyone.

[-] 0 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

We're already lookin at $160B per year with wealthy tax increases. I say say we can go to $300B.

We can further get another $300B from defense cuts & general cutting of waste, fraud, & abuse.

That leaves just $300B left in the annual deficit which we will just grow out of.

Don't be afraid.we can do it by squeezing those greedy wealthy people and not hurting the 99%.

[-] 0 points by janus2 (-387) 1 year ago

it doesnt matter how much money the govt confiscates from the people, if the spending is not cut. it doesnt matter.160 bil +300 bil = 460 bil .even if you raise that 160 to 300, you then have 600 bil. it does not equal the 16 trillion. one trillion is one thousand billion.

[-] 1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

My numbers relate to the current $900B annual deficit not the $16T national debt.

[-] 2 points by owsarmy (300) 1 year ago

good luck convincing these RW wackos

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[-] -1 points by OTP (-203) from Tampa, FL 1 year ago

Clinton economists put it at 87 TRILLION in liabilities. Theres going to have to be cuts somewhere.

Dems and Reps refuse to address the MIC. So guess what, say good bye to your pension and school.