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Forum Post: Ayn Rand and the real "takers"

Posted 1 year ago on May 31, 2013, 10:06 a.m. EST by shoozTroll (17632)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

"Ayn Rand's novel "Atlas Shrugged" fantasizes a world in which anti-government citizens reject taxes and regulations, and "stop the motor" by withdrawing themselves from the system of production. In a perverse twist on the writer's theme the prediction is coming true. But instead of productive people rejecting taxes, rejected taxes are shutting down productive people.

Perhaps Ayn Rand never anticipated the impact of unregulated greed on a productive middle class. Perhaps she never understood the fairness of tax money for public research and infrastructure and security, all of which have contributed to the success of big business. She must have known about the inequality of the pre-Depression years. But she couldn't have foreseen the concurrent rise in technology and globalization that allowed inequality to surge again, more quickly, in a manner that threatens to put the greediest offenders out of our reach.

Ayn Rand's philosophy suggests that average working people are 'takers.' In reality, those in the best position to make money take all they can get, with no scruples about their working class victims, because taking, in the minds of the rich, serves as a model for success. The strategy involves tax avoidance, in numerous forms."

http://truth-out.org/buzzflash/commentary/item/17960-the-biggest-takers-and-societal-parasites-are-the-rich-not-the-working-class-and-poor

Libe(R)topia? There is NO Atlas. Just mindless, destructive, psychotic takers.

92 Comments

92 Comments


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[-] 2 points by Phanya2011 (908) from Tucson, AZ 1 year ago

I read Atlas Shrugged in high school and took away a totally different impression. I thought the "bad guys" were not the people who received government assistance, but rather the excessive number of civil servants (i.e., bureaucracy) who were inefficient and costly for everyone. The real takers were the politicians, not the civilians. That is still true, but now they are taking for themselves and corporations...and yet again, no one is giving a damn about the citizens themselves.

[-] -1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 1 year ago

Keep in mind that the book is fiction.

A fiction that's still being promoted as truth by certain factions in our society.

And they take far more from that fiction than you have.

[-] 1 points by Phanya2011 (908) from Tucson, AZ 1 year ago

True, it was fun fiction when I was 17; doubt if I could wade through it now. I do keep an eye on Colorado, though :)

[-] 2 points by GirlFriday (17435) 1 year ago

Libertopians. A bunch of idiots.

[-] 0 points by shoozTroll (17632) 1 year ago

I get attacked rather regularly for "borrowing" your term....libe(R)topia.

I hope you don't mind my using it.

Perhaps the attacks are form Randoholics?

I can't be sure, but libe(R)topia looks like a nightmare to me.

[-] 1 points by GirlFriday (17435) 1 year ago

By all means borrow away. Every time a Libertopia is attempted it results in death and destruction. So, dealing with a bunch of people who either stand to profit or are complete idiots should not be your problem. Or mine.

[-] 0 points by shoozTroll (17632) 1 year ago

I've always wondered why they don't attack you for using it, but what the hey?

I also wonder why they don't notice when it's being instituted at the State level.

Strange.

[-] 1 points by GirlFriday (17435) 1 year ago

Primarily because there are so many other things to attack me for. I guess?

The second one baffles me as well.

[-] 0 points by OTP (-203) from Tampa, FL 1 year ago

We need to distiguish fascism from libertarianism, which is very similar to liberalism in many regards.

Fascism and corporatism are words we hear a lot at occupy, and around the globe, in this global uprising. And for good reason.

When you need to ask the government for permission just to go paint the neighbors living room as a result of the builders lobby, its definitely not libertopia.

TECO, the power company, get billions back in taxes, so they are free to do as they wish. If we dont pay our tax to the county and then to the state, for the right to go fishing, we are criminals. In the name of "protecting the environment"...and yet TECO gets a free pass.

[-] 2 points by GirlFriday (17435) 1 year ago

Libertopia is a shit deal.

You can spend hours sitting here and talking ideology. At the end of day, it has destroyed people and land. Fuck the libertopians.

[-] 0 points by OTP (-203) from Tampa, FL 1 year ago

Then I guess we can throw in teh liberals and conservatives in there too, because theres plenty of shithead destroying the env and the people who claim to be them too.

At the end of the day, its corporatism. Thats why all the signs that said so. The people in this thing get it. Give the top a free pass, and regulate the shit out the competition and the people's lives.

[-] 1 points by GirlFriday (17435) 1 year ago

Grow up. You don't have any place the shit has been implemented that has not destroyed lives or the land. Get over it. You don't have any solutions how to rectify that shit either.

But, it sure does make a lot of mother fuckers feel warm and fuzzy inside.

[-] 0 points by OTP (-203) from Tampa, FL 1 year ago

It becomes rectified by getting people in action. Off the sidelines and onto the field. Very simple yet very hard to pull off. You and I both know that much.

"You don't have any place the shit has been implemented that has not destroyed lives or the land"

I dont have any place that just about anything has been implemented that lives and land havent been destroyed. Humans are a menace in the eyes of mother nature.

[-] 0 points by GirlFriday (17435) 1 year ago

Libertopia is a menace to society.

Like I said, I don't have time for you to get this.

Only the actions that you choose to see that have been taken. It's all about the choosing.

[-] 1 points by OTP (-203) from Tampa, FL 1 year ago

Ok, lets get one thing straight once and for all on this....

Right now, in THIS country, are we in libertarian landscape or corporatism/fascism?

What is it? Shooz and a couple others say we are in libertarian landscape. Almost everyone at occupy says its corporatism.

So who has a better idea of whats going on?

Occupy or Shooz?

Im going with the thousands in the street.

[-] 1 points by GirlFriday (17435) 1 year ago

Yeah, just the thousands in the street that you CHOOSE to see. Not the ones that you don't want to see. Then you, and a few others, pretend that deregulation is the answer.

http://therealnews.com/t2/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=31&Itemid=74&jumival=7560

http://socialistworker.org/2011/10/26/libertarians-ideas-dont-belong

There is a history here J. Pete Peterson? Libertarian. Koch brothers? Libertarian. Cato? Libertarian. AEI? Libertarians.
Privatization of public institutions? Libertarian.

Gettin' the picture yet?

Name your country in Africa? Bastion of free market--libertarian.

Social Security failure in Chile? Libertarian.

[-] 1 points by OTP (-203) from Tampa, FL 1 year ago

I made it by your listening to people say "Im this" and "Im that" and then you going around going

"He is that" and "He is this"...

These corporatists and fascists can call themselves whatever the hell they want. Call themselves mickey mouse for all I care.

It doesnt change what they are.

I wouldnt blame Obamas cutting SS on liberals, because he is far from it.

[-] 0 points by GirlFriday (17435) 1 year ago

No. Libertarianism leads to corporatism. It leads to a plutocracy.

Listening to Libertarians is like listening to a bunch of Christians arguing about the one true way. Hence, Libertopia.

[-] 0 points by OTP (-203) from Tampa, FL 1 year ago

This country.

What is it?

Corporatism or Libertarianism?

[-] 1 points by GirlFriday (17435) 1 year ago

How the fuck did you just make that leap in logic?

[-] -1 points by OTP (-203) from Tampa, FL 1 year ago

"Still in it because not every state is down for the count."

Really? Name me one that isnt highly regulated the competition out and is ran by mainly multinational companies?

Ive lived all over the country. This shit is 100% taken over at this point. IF theres a state thats not, its because they have decided its not worth their time. Its why occupy spread like wildfire.

The political system, the economic system, the food system, the energy system, and soon the genetical pool will be too.

[-] 1 points by GirlFriday (17435) 1 year ago

Name me one that isnt highly regulated the competition out


And we are done.

[-] -1 points by OTP (-203) from Tampa, FL 1 year ago

"No. Libertarianism leads to corporatism"

So are we out of libertarianism and into corporatism, in your opinion? Or are we still in libertarianism?

[-] 1 points by GirlFriday (17435) 1 year ago

Still in it because not every state is down for the count. You guys should be so proud.

[-] -1 points by OTP (-203) from Tampa, FL 1 year ago

"Right now, in THIS country, are we in libertarian landscape or corporatism/fascism?"

Im not making any leaps. Im repeating the original issue- Is this country a libertarian one or a fascist one?

[-] -1 points by OTP (-203) from Tampa, FL 1 year ago

Ive never said that deregulation is the answer. We are in the streets protesting NO regulations.

Go see for yourself if you dont want to believe me.

Koch Brothers and CATO are libertarians about as much as Obama is a liberal. But thats what they claim to be, so we should just accept it.

This undying trust in authority figures has got to stop.

[-] 0 points by GirlFriday (17435) 1 year ago

How the fuck did you just make that leap in logic?

[-] 0 points by OTP (-203) from Tampa, FL 1 year ago

And if you dont want to answer its fine, but Im sick of this other asshole claiming that since I call it - more accurately mind you, what it is- corporatism/fascism, just like almost ALL of occupy, that it means Im

in love with libertarianism, in love with rich assholes, and in love with ALEC...

I mean, wtf?

And Im sure the thing will see these messages in the morning and go off on another "ignoring ALEC" and "buying Koch brothers products" - I guess he lives in a grass hut and no one ever went to Home Depot to fix his house in his 60 yrs of life- it will be the same shit over and over and over again.

[-] 0 points by GirlFriday (17435) 1 year ago

Because your shit is never repetitive, amiright?

[-] -1 points by OTP (-203) from Tampa, FL 1 year ago

Then you should go help more often. Its not quite the cookie cutter nonsense you are used to.

[-] 0 points by GirlFriday (17435) 1 year ago

You should stop trying to coopt the shit with a bunch of libertopian bullshit.

[-] -1 points by OTP (-203) from Tampa, FL 1 year ago

Do you even understand what occupy is talking about with corporatism?

And yes, it ALL gets repetitive, especially when traffic is down due to various reasons...about 10 of us on here.

[-] 0 points by GirlFriday (17435) 1 year ago

I get Occupy just fine. I sure as fuck don't think you get it at all.

[-] -1 points by OTP (-203) from Tampa, FL 1 year ago

Dont quit.

Even the ones you claim are "libertopian paradises" have regulated the small guy out of existence.

You've lived in NY. Go try to start a small business. Its damn near impossible. Now you are in Chicago. Same shit. Come to Florida. Same shit.

I'll repeat this so you can get it through your head:

Corporatism- allowing the big guys to do whatever they like, while regulating all the small guys out of business. Institute police state with the public focused on a boogie man. Reduce personal freedoms in the name of safety.

When you are ready to get on board let me know. Until then, stop assuming that thing that trolls me is correct.

[-] 1 points by GirlFriday (17435) 1 year ago

I've lived in Florida. Key West.

You didn't get it the first time around. We made a full circle.

[-] 0 points by OTP (-203) from Tampa, FL 1 year ago

Ah yes, the contractor examination and all of that bullshit. Well, its gotten about 10 times worse since then. Now they want access to your bank account and minimum balances in the tens of thousands of dollars. Fees have doubled, and as the police state increases, their thoughts on what is criminal has increased as well, putting more people out and forced to work for the big guys.

Mandatory quarterly tax filings, and the $700 1099 bullshit makes it even more impossible.

It is literally almost impossible at this point to come over as a poor immigrant and create your own business.

But you are fine with it all? You think thats fine while the multinational builders get to do whatever the hell they want? You think that they should be able to lobby for more regulations to put more people out of business?

[-] 0 points by GirlFriday (17435) 1 year ago

I know it's gotten worse. I keep having to update your ass.

Which is what makes this entire circle that we just did utterly ludicrous.

[-] 0 points by OTP (-203) from Tampa, FL 1 year ago

No offense but while your understanding on some topics is better than mine, your dislike of libertarians is blinding you from seeing whats going on. To state that this is libertarian landscape instead of corporatism is something I expect out of left and right wing nuts, of which I thought you were past.

[-] 0 points by OTP (-203) from Tampa, FL 1 year ago

Ha, your telling me. I dont mind spending time on people discussing things like this, because if people dont understand where we ARE currently, it makes it very hard to figure out a solution.

I've yet to have someone try to convince me that we are living in a libertarian country and not a corporatist one. Ive had moronic right wingers tell me this is socialism, which is a joke. But between you and the other thing, this is a first.

You have to suggest solutions eventually.

[-] 0 points by GirlFriday (17435) 1 year ago

By your own admission, there are approximately 10 of us. That's a bullshit statement. You know it.

I'm not interested in convincing you anything. Not my job. Like I said, I don't have time for you to get it.

[-] -2 points by OTP (-203) from Tampa, FL 1 year ago

"You should stop trying to coopt the shit with a bunch of libertopian bullshit."

Does my desire for democratically elected bodies to run regulations at the top make me a libertarian? Or my desire to rid the entire political system of outside money?

Hows this for regulation ideas- NO deriviatives. None. No mixing of commerical and investment banks either. None at all.

You want me to make a list of all the regulations Id like to see on banks?

[-] -1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 1 year ago

Looking at your exchange from last night, I'd say others are even more baffled, bamboozled even.

[-] 1 points by GirlFriday (17435) 1 year ago

I'm thinking this is not baffled or bamboozled. It's called being intentionally obtuse.

[-] -1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 1 year ago

Or perhaps it still hasn't figured out how libe(R)tarianism is applied to the "corporate citizen".

And why it's the PERFECT, most profitable philosophy for that corporate citizen.

[-] 1 points by GirlFriday (17435) 1 year ago

It knows and that is why it is here.

[-] -1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 1 year ago

I've been trying to say.

There's NO excuse for posting from the JBS, or breitbart.

Except that those links can also be found at prisonplanet, and that's not an excuse either.

[-] 0 points by GirlFriday (17435) 1 year ago

Nope.

[-] 0 points by OTP (-203) from Tampa, FL 1 year ago

She's not desperately trying to create her own brand on a horizontal website.

Just another sign that you have no clue what occupy is about.

[-] 0 points by GirlFriday (17435) 1 year ago

Shooz isn't either. You know this is true. So, why not be honest about your motive?

[-] 0 points by OTP (-203) from Tampa, FL 1 year ago

Shooz is an agitator meant to disrupt things. And I doubt he is alone. If they were sending them into our meetings and actions, they obviously would send them to the sites too. Anyone who thinks Im a tea partier, or many others on here who mirror the vibe of occupy and hence were attacked. is obviously ignoring the reality in front of their face to an agenda.

As far as the pet names go...

[-] -1 points by GirlFriday (17435) 1 year ago

Bullshit. Bull fucking shit. YOU ARE A LIAR. Fuck you.

[-] 1 points by OTP (-203) from Tampa, FL 1 year ago

Im not lying about anything, I have to figure with all the stuff Ive posted on here if someone is claiming Im supporting ALEC and in love with the Koch brothers then they are simply trying to stir up shit.

I could be wrong, but this things obsession with slamming me, despite the posts that are in 100% agreement with most of his, is a bit strange.

You dont think its strange? It could be a computer program for all I know. Who knows...

[-] -2 points by GirlFriday (17435) 1 year ago

Ya, I'm sure it's been real rough on here trying to figure it out.Bull shit.

[-] 0 points by OTP (-203) from Tampa, FL 1 year ago

Its not rough, but it is blatantly ignoring anything and repeatedly posting the same nonsense, which for all intents and purposes, goes directly against the type of stuff I do, the type of stuff Ive been doing for a long time now.

[-] -1 points by GirlFriday (17435) 1 year ago

No it isn't. You just float Libertarian. It's like picking and choosing war and the ramifications or the underlying motive.
Frankly, I don't have time to wait for you to get it.

[-] 0 points by OTP (-203) from Tampa, FL 1 year ago

Well feel free to get out there and help others get it then.

Frankly you do have the time.

Libertarians and liberals agree on a vast more than they disagree on. The main sticking point is env and business regulations at the very top, of which Im of the take of making the SEC, FDA and etc democratically elected bodies meant to uphold a basic set of expectations.

[-] -2 points by shoozTroll (17632) 1 year ago

You sure have been slimy lately.

Ghost posts and all.

Have you managed to say the Koch's are libe(R)tarian yet?

This is just another attempt at insult from you.

Fact, information and issue free.

This branding crap of yours?

Did it come out of your PR agency?

I don't have one of those, so who is it that's really attempting to create a "brand"?

[-] 1 points by OTP (-203) from Tampa, FL 1 year ago

You are desperately trying to create your own unique identity. Everyone sees right through it, one doesnt need a degree to understand your goals with those names.

Please explain how you are against ALEC and yet still vote for people who take their money?

https://forums.craigslist.org/?forumID=20

Im sick of you claiming myself and most anyone else who actually participates is something they arent.

[-] -1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 1 year ago

http://occupywallst.org/forum/34-to-1/

Craigs list??????

You never did say who that ominous and threatening "we" is.

Of course, information has never been your strong suit.

Insults, on the other hand.......are.

Along with dissuasion and misinformation.

Am I to forget all that you've said in the past?

Because I didn't.

Is that part of your PR campaign?

[-] 1 points by ronimacarroni (1089) 1 year ago

We don't need to remove regulations so business can turn public parks into malls or wallstreet can keep propping up ponzi schemes or however it is they rig the system. We need public healthcare, free college education and government jobs to make up for the shitty performance from the private sector. But most importantly we need for people to actually pay their taxes and quit whining. Taxes are not theft. Ben Franklin said so.

[-] -1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 1 year ago

But rich libe(R)tarians, don't want to pay for anything that might benefit someone else.

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[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (22316) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

Was Ayn an early Stockholm syndrome individual? Identifying with the persecutors rather than with the persecuted?

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[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (22316) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

Yep - and she was twisted - no doubt. Funny she is taken to heart by the Greedy.

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[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (22316) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

Proof of illness with-out the need to delve further.

Funny she is taken to heart by the Greedy.

Above quote should have ended with a question mark?

[-] -1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 1 year ago

I wonder if she ever realized, that Atlas never showed up?

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[-] -1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 1 year ago

Ewww.

I don't wanna know how that works.

Amazing though, how the article demonstrates how the libe(R)tarians are involved in all of these things, and there are still so many in ignorance or denial

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[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (22316) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

Naw it isn't the theorists that flock their way - it is the adamant deniers of very visible conspiracy and collusion ( the bought & paid for & the truly ignorant/lost/stupid/oblivious ).

[-] -1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 1 year ago

They follow 'em around like ducklings.

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[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (22316) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

I think the good news here is that right wing extremism has in all likelihood hit its peak

The horror would be if they ( corp(se)oRATists ) figured they were just getting started.

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[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (22316) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

There is a reason they donate to both parties.

Yep - no argument here - but currently the majority of the visibly owned in government ( state and federal ) are the ones calling themselves republican.

[-] -1 points by OTP (-203) from Tampa, FL 1 year ago

Libe(R)topia ... Creating ones own catch phrases in blatant self interest is the exact type of behavior that Ayn Rand thought should be promoted.

How ironic.

So do you get paid per post, or paid per catch phrase?

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[-] 0 points by OTP (-203) from Tampa, FL 1 year ago

Isnt that sweet.

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[-] 1 points by OTP (-203) from Tampa, FL 1 year ago

They're not libertarians. They are libe(R)tarians.

Consistency is key if the MSM is ever going to pick up your term and make it famous.

[-] -1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 1 year ago

Sorry.

I didn't think you could pronounce the (R).

You have enough problems as it is. I didn't want to over complicate it for you.

Now, what central authority did you say you get your approved terminology from?

You keep skipping so many questions, it does get difficult to keep up.

[-] -1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 1 year ago

Everyone knows it, but you.

I mentioned to a young man behind the butcher counter the other day, that I had met a man on the internet who refused to believe that the Koch's were libe(R)tarian...............and he broke out in loud, uncontrollable laughter.

Once he caught his breath, he said, simply.........yeah, they are!

So c'mon. Don't be a sheep.

You can say it.

The Koch's are libe(R)tarians.

[-] -1 points by OTP (-203) from Tampa, FL 1 year ago

You are talking about this site while you are out? Can we all say "obsessed"?

As soon as the Kochs push some legislation that deregulates ME, let me know.

Until then, they are just another fa(C)sist/(C)orporatist tentacle that is using Demo(C)rats and Republi(C)ans to do their bidding.

Im sorry your most relevant political experience lately has been with your butcher. That really sucks.

If you werent such an ornery asshole you may get invited to more events.

[-] 0 points by shoozTroll (17632) 1 year ago

The Koch's are libe(R)tarains.

C'mon. Say it.

Speak the truth for once.

It feels much better that your constant insults.

It's all you ever have.

not a word from you based on the content of the material provided.

Nope.

Not you.

Just end it with yet another mean spirited insult.

And telling me, I'm "ornery"

Balderdash.

100%.

[-] 0 points by OTP (-203) from Tampa, FL 1 year ago

Do you understand what (C)orporatism is?

[-] -1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 1 year ago

Balderdash.....Pure balderdash.

The Koch's are libe(R)tarian.

Every once.

I guess it's you doesn't know what that is, let alone what it means.

It's OK. I understand now. It's why you never answer questions.

It's why you let so many posts I've shown you reality on, drop from sight, without a response from you.

It's why you can't say.

The Koch's are libe(R)tarians

You can't handle the truth.

---Jack Nicholson---

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[-] -2 points by highlander22 (-2) 1 year ago

2/3 of the comments are by the favorite Big Three of this site, with the always voice of reason herself GirlFriday adding a few tidbits. You schleps keep blocking me and others who disagree with your views and you end up with the concise, broad, consensual dialogue that all great movements are built upon. No wonder you guys have falling off the cliff.

[-] -1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 1 year ago

Lies are not dissent. They're just lies.

Are you trying to say that you agree with the views of Ms. Rand?