Forum Post: are you ready to abandon your anti-voting position?
Posted 10 years ago on May 14, 2013, 7:30 a.m. EST by bensdad
(8977)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
AND
are you prepared to vote for electable pro-99% candidates who will free the women?
Is anyone ready to organize across partisan lines to demand issues of common importance to all in affidavits for candidates to sign and be held to?
AND
is anyone prepared not to vote for candidates who won't sign the trans-partisan presented affidavits even if it means not voting for anyone at all?
So long as the people are unwilling to come together to take a stand on the what will constitute electable candidates, they will remain fallen before the corporate persons to rule over them.
What you suggest is what our NYC OWS working group did with Occupy Staten Island in the last election
DISCONNECT CAPITALISM FROM DEMOCRACY
Do what 80% of Americans + 100 congressmen + 1309 mayors want
http://corporationsarenotpeople.webuda.com
Virtually everything we want hinges on disarming our opponent –
……………………………………………………..GREED
by stopping the flood of bribes into our government.
by stopping the control – by their capitalism – of our democracy
YOU WANT TO GET IT DONE ?
Join the NYC OWS
Corporations are not People and Money is not Speech Working Group
This is the first REAL step to REAL change .
government OF the people BY the people FOR the people
http://corporationsarenotpeople.webuda.com
check out our comprehensive analysis of
the 17 existing proposed amendments
and our detailed historical timeline of corporate personhood
http://www.nycga.net/groups/restore-democracy.com
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NYCRDWG.com
Are you ready
.....................FOR ACTION ?
Are you ready
.....................TO DO SOMETHING REAL ?
Are you ready
......................TO JOIN 80% OF YOUR FELLOW AMERICANS ?
We must not
DEMAND that we WANT THEM.to give to US
We must
DEMAND GOALS THAT WE WILL ACHIEVE FOR OURSELVES
Because of the Supreme Court's decision,
we cannot accomplish anything significant, without FIRST -
Overturning Citizens United !!!
Ending Corporate Personhood !!!
80% of Americans already agree on it
as stated in the ABC/Washington Post poll
http://corporationsarenotpeople.webuda.com/1_6_DOCUMENTS.html click on #12
And in the the PFAW Poll -
http://corporationsarenotpeople.webuda.com/1_6_DOCUMENTS.html click on #11
Our primary goal should be to elect representatives who support a constitutional amendment to reverse the Supreme Court decision Citizens United (2010) , that enables unlimited amounts of anonymous money to flood into our political system.
We don’t have to explain or persuade people to accept our position – we only have to persuade them to ACT based on their own position. Pursuing this goal will prove to the world that we, at OWS, are a serious realistic movement, with serious realistic goals. Achieving this goal will make virtually every other goal – jobs, taxes, infrastructure, Medicare – much easier to achieve –
by disarming our greatest enemy – GREED.
IT IS TIME FOR YOU TO ACT ----> JOIN US TO MAKE A DIFFERENCE
I feel that using the tactics of the NRA, the AARP, the TP, the anti-SOPA – who all represent a minority – who have successfully used their voting power and political pressure to achieve their minority goals - is a straight path for us to success that cannot fail to enable us to create and complete one task that the MAJORITY want.
Join the NYC OWS Corporations are not People and Money is not Speech Working Group
http://corporationsarenotpeople.webuda.com
http://www.nycga.net/groups/restore-democracy
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NYCRDWG
http://bit.ly/vK2pGI
regular meetings Wednesdays 5:30-7:30PM @ 60 Wall St – The Attrium
Great! If what I suggest is what your NYC OWS working group did with Occupy Staten Island in the last election, please post a copy of the trans-partisan affidavit used as an example for others to follow.
The document was signed by the Green party candidate & the Democratic candidate who ran against Michael Grimm who would not sign.
since our NYC OWS working group saw one issue as the first step to all of our goals, we used a voting block pledge - for voters and candidates
It was relating to a "single issue" -
campaign finance reform via a constitutional amendment to end corporate personhood & citizens united
see
http://corporationsarenotpeople.webuda.com
This "obligated" candidates to vote for what voters want & obligated voters to vote for those candidates.
A pledge is not an affidavit and therefore carries no legal consequences for a candidate who can be bribed to violate it either before or after being elected.
Nevertheless, I sincerely applaud this very significant effort in the right direction.
An affadavit has legal force only if you have a legal system ready to prosecute perjury.
We were centering on electoral - voter consequences.
If one of "our" candidates was elected, we would be able to notify all of our "voter signers" that the person they voted for broke their pledge.
The remedy for a legal system that is not ready to prosecute perjury is a well planned Wisconsin scale mass protest since the injured party will be the voters who by consequence of the candidate having been elected will be the majority along with all the other affidavit supporting voters whose candidates didn't win.
Translation: Be REVOLUTIONARY, and vote Democratic!....lol
-1. No matter how many times that you refer to your little group as the official sounding NYC OWS WG,
-2. And no matter how many times you try to inextricably weave your insidious agenda into altruistic Occupy initiatives
-3. And no matter how many times that you meet at the Atrium where so many good, real Occupy affinity groups meet,
Your little on-going scheme to co-opt this noble movement into the dem party is obvious to me, and many others here
Keep trying though 'cause it is...as amusing as all hell
Be careful Bensdad, many Occupiers believe the big A is bugged, but then again, that wouldn't matter much to someone advocating for the 'Same Old', would it?
~Odin~
I'm not all that interested in the issues either party supports
Sounds like strategy I've proposed for ART5.
http://articlev.org/proposals/index.php/35/rightful-masters-congress-the-courts-the-people-need-prepare
In this case, the affidavit is the candidates promise, probably enforceable in civil court, (or should be) to support ART5 and preparatory amendment.
What electable pro 99% candidate are you talking about? Last pres election it was a choice of 2 corporate shills and some third party candidates.
Alan Grayson Elizabeth Warren Bernie Sanders etc etc
You'r right about them. And if we can a decent dem candidate for 2016 I will vote for them. I'm not all that confident we will. I will vote in the primary next cycle and maybe help getting something decent. There must be some benefit of living ina swing state.
If we get another establishment candidate I will vote third party again.
[Removed]
3 outta 536 aint bad. We really know how to grab this democracy by the horns eh?
.5% .... shit....less than 1%....omg we are royally screwed.
More about Logic than Conspiracy, was looking for a science minded person to post this too. It was a tweet from a scientist concerned about corruption, crony capitalism, loss of conservative business/progressive business practices, and of course GOP narratives:
----------Tweet-------------------------------
Adam @TraderAOJ29m
Two rules to success in life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know.
RGE to @TraderAOJ
Correction:
Parasitic life, don't share all you know.
Social species life: share ALL you know. ASAP. Help select what [most] helps.
Don't we teach citizens how about co-optimization anymore? About making a whole greater than the sum of it's parts?
It's a simple math function.
Optimal_Sum[A+B] always exceeds Sum[A] + Sum[B]
How else can we hope to explore our yawning "OptionsSpace?" (RGE means we have many options, but leaders don't seem to notice them)
Admittedly, it requires trial & error pattern recognition (not even formal calculus), but even social amoeba solved that over 400 million years ago! Why can't we do a better job at this?
This is NOT as hard as we're making it.
RGE is a system type scientist who often stresses adapting to change in order to survive. He sees politics as people involved not assessing the situation, not gather enough data quickly, not being aware of options, not assessing right, and not implanting changes quickly enough or in a Dynamic way. We all have to reassess and change rapidly in this complicated world.
So perhaps the 3 ladies are tied up by US System Problems including the political system, feed back system, response system, budget system, and regulatory systems ...among all the others.
I see you as being part of the Feed Back System. So I appreciate that you put out info, ideas, and are active in telling Congress.
Unfortunately the Myth Makers WIN. Critical Thinkers are too few.
Education is required for a critical thinking mind. A required effort. Prerequisite. (Sound familiar College Grads & Current Students) A healthy skeptic drilling towards the truth and learning what the evidence will bare out is a hard road.
Inspiration for Truth fuels the fire and MUST be followed by educating oneself on the nature of truth. (A MUST!) Then using a solidly grounded bullshit detector you will stand a fairly chance to learn something about this world that many will miss.
If you realize we ALL have this purpose inherently then you will be force to contend with. Truth is empowerment.
ANd you got a BIG YES from me. Science is the only decent tool that aligns us with truth. Check your emotional appeals at the door. Instead get that emotion directed towards the beauty of knowing what REAL TRUTH is.
ANd, beware of those like me who use the term "Truth". Many use it to hide lies behind it. Saying it's true doesn't make it so.
Truth doesn't need anything from any of us to prop it up. Think about that, it's a beautiful thing right there. We may some day really understand just what that means.
COME TOGETHER NOW
Embrace the Evident Truth
Philosophy is the search for Truth and the Nature of Reality. Or you might say it is looking for the nature of ourselves, truth, the universe and our place in the Universe. We are told we need training to understand and apply philosophy without embarrassing ourselves.
Today many in the Capitalist System are focused on Material Science in that money plays a big part, most people are seeking material possessions, and there is an application of science by the powers that be to create a consumer economy. (This is not the true definition of Material Science).
Anyway, Methodology and Definitions have to be part of the basis for discussions and education in order to lead to understanding.
I'm a hack, but everyone has an opinion which can be questioned for methods and deeper explanations of the mechanism involved.
Take the Claim that Clinton Forced banks to make subprime mortgages. As I understand it there was no government loan guarantee mechanism for subprime or NINJA Loans. The mechanism for secondary market in subprime loans was that Wall Street was providing AAA Ratings, buying all these loans as fast as they can, and then repackaging them for quick sale (sometime multiple times for the same mortgage) and then reaping the fees and bonuses.
But republicans will simple tell you that Bill Clinton Threatened US Banks into making Subprime mortgages. They are not aware of a mechanism and can't explain the process.
So, while I sound pretentious here... at least we can all see a mechanism, right?
Yes, we do slowly come together in thought, as long as we keep working at it. Work being emphasized here because some of truth seeking is plain bland work but so necessary so we plow through ready to discover a gem here and there but frequently enough to not lose all hope.
Just as a wild shot here, but maybe not so wild, I would say at the very least, most Americans do not understand much about the financial crisis and what caused it. Few know how our government works. How bills come up and maybe get passed. Not that they can't, they can. The bigger question is: are they motivated. It's like the first LAW of the critical MIND, -------Interest-------without this, nada. With it, we embrace infinity and find something to dig at. It's there we create our critical MIND. Digging, focusing, working, researching, and then we learn the 2nd LAW - The Critical Method of Finding and Confirming Truth.
Luckily, for me, as a design engineer, I get to play with reality and see what new thing I can bring up. I create electrical circuits which is rewarding but is also tedious mind bending perfect detailing work. The pleasure seeps from the veins when you make a STUPID horrible MISTAKE. Of the 3000 or so details, you missed the one that turns a $100 PCA into a shotgun target, good for a shot blast and reload.
Anyway, I apply my honed engineering skills into the political arena where the Truth is harder to find, is often obscured, or is outright lied about. Facts are largely ignored in favor of emotional APPEALS that can garner votes. But, with every fiber in body, I can't leave it alone and must participate with my reasoned approach that requires everyone do their homework and not spout off until they've checked their facts five times. But that's where I must also diverge, the misinformed will still always shoot from the hip but they may also accidentally catch something I say that puts them on path they needed to find.
My way is always towards the bittersweet Truth however it may present itself. I don't know where the road ends which likely is why I'm still here.
As Jefferson knew, Reason is what leads us to the Truth. He found it there in the books. A very wise man who knew America could never endure and carry forward the enlightenment unless we:
THOMAS JEFFERSON
“An enlightened citizenry is indispensable for the proper functioning of a republic. Self-government is not possible unless the citizens are educated sufficiently to enable them to exercise oversight. It is therefore imperative that the nation see to it that a suitable education be provided for all its citizens.”
It's a tough slog but the reward is only realized after it. Life is a struggle and, in living it, we realize our true purpose. And, sometimes when we look up, we will see others plotting a similar course.
Good Day MiddleAged!
You R so right, ComeTogetherNOW , Information & education on the Internet is the Key.
Emphatic ditto 'Ma' and am strongly recommending "Surviving Progress" to you. It is a great 2011 Canadian documentary film loosely based on the excellent short book 'A Short History of Progress', by Ronald Wright :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RT9FfECB8A8 [1h22m] and also refer to ...
http://firstrunfeatures.com/survivingprogress/ & http://survivingprogress.com/ .
''The film is structured as a series of interviews, interspersed with footage from all over the world. The film is said to be "inspired by" Wright's lectures. Unlike the book, which focused on ancient civilizations, the film focuses on the present-day impact of civilization, including the impact of concentrated wealth. The underlying message here is that current models and strategies of economic growth have no practical connections with the real world. That is to say, the lack of an ethical underpinning in modern global economic practices is directly responsible for the overconsumption and exploitation of natural resources to the extent that the increasingly more probable future population collapse would take modern society right along with it.'' from : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surviving_Progress .
Solidarity @ you and yours mate & not sure how long this video will be available ;-)
multum in parvo ...
Yes, 32 minutes in, they talk about Rome refusing to cancel the debt of the people and institute equality. Rome striped the countries of all the everything they had. Rather than cancel debt.
Wow. Nice link. History repeats itself. Again. And Again. Bankers just repeat all the lessons of history to strip wealth from the people.
Best video I've seen in months. Thanks again, Shadz.
Sweet :-) & http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lxHG3jUqdQ0 ~*~
verb. sat. sap. ...
Be the love revolution, Sz. Good call. Excellent video & production. Music is great. Editing is great. Camera is great. OWS has talent, skills, heart, spirit, and love. And today, now, I am looking again at this critical success factors. Wow. My feeling is that nothings is left out that the video (paradigm) is complete. Probably, I will seek out the mechanism for change and solutions to specific problems.... But we must start with a vision.
Sacred Economics is a vision.
Good call and good critique 'Ma' and in solidarity, I append :
http://sacred-economics.com/ &
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EEZkQv25uEs .
''Life is a gift. If you know you've received a gift then the natural response is gratitude - the desire to give in return''. Also 'Ma', a very strong recommendation for the following talk and Q&A by Dennis Kucinich :
DK @ NAPF http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5fYE9YoM51k - It's VERY moving & inspiring +
Transcript of the talk : http://www.wagingpeace.org/articles/db_article.php?article_id=447 ...~*~...
multum in parvo ...
I'll vote for Bernie any day of the week. One of the few with any guts. But what we need is a list of all candidates' supporters. After all, that's who we're really voting for.
I would look at the other side of the issue-
How do we stop anyone - except citizens -
from contributing to ANY candidate
see HJR29 & OWS site http://corporationsarenotpeople.webuda.com
I completely hear you but, some older folks were talking and I heard one say, 'You get in the booth, you have a & b and you don't know either of them.' It's not just that corporations are not people. There should be NO LOBBIES. period. Otherwise, they get to decide what's an issue. We do not.
That is exactly what CAN BE DONE
IF HJR29 & its goals can be attained
The oil industry, the prison industry, the banks must have NO input
People only
http://corporationsarenotpeople.webuda.com
Well OK then! what do you want me to do. Where do I sign?
The opinion of our OWS WG is that the only way to get HJR29 done is to pressure all congress people to support it AND to elect pro-99% candidates OWS site: http://corporationsarenotpeople.webuda.com
http://www.filmsforaction.org/watch/unveiled_and_lifted_feature_film_2013/
See 9 min, 40 seconds. This is why I never have or will participate in the electoral system.
We should all focus on taking this stance, and issues will become resolved. No more taking sides.
"who are we?"
Wow, here is a graphic for you.
http://econintersect.com/b2evolution/blog2.php/2013/05/14/a-reversion-to-a-dickensian-variety-of-capitalism
I do vote. I think what me to do is to get behind someone that you have decided is either electable or to back a party. Frankly, you can't have that. Not from me. I refuse to jump for these people. They will need to get off their asses and jump for me. I don't want to listen to answers of what these people think I want to hear.
I vote. Never miss an election. But it’s naive to think we can vote our way out of our problems. I say the same for protests, they won’t make a difference. I don’t have an answer. I vote anyway. Who knows, maybe we’ll get lucky.
You aren't going to have anyone electable until you start asking the right questions to get some answers. Not those questions that are prescribed for you. Not gotcha questions. Not mic checks.
The choice is -
vote for a really first tier 99%er like Bernie Sanders or Elizabeth Warren
or
vote for an unelectable candidate who will NEVER get a law passed for the 99%
or
dont vote and will NEVER get a law passed for the 99%
or
vote for a candidate who stands with the 1% most of the time
or
vote for a candidate who stands with the 99% most of the time
If you want to say vote Democrat at every opportunity then just say it.
vote for 99% supporters
vote against 1% supporters
You should take your own advice sometime.
The choice is this: if you want to be elected than get off your ass. Either grow a pair like Sanders or Warren or take a hike.
Nope, especially if they are a democrat and/or republican and/or belong to anyother political party.
I wouldn't vote if I was in US because it legitimizes the broken system. Instead, I would protest the system in front of the voting polls. Voting accomplishes very little. The system is taken over by the 1%. Even if a good man would become president, he would be corrupted soon enough. The system corrupts all who play inside it, that's why OWS must stay outside of it.
"Voting accomplishes very little."
If no one voted for Nader, we would not have had shrub
If we did not have shrub, we would not have had an Iraq war
If willard got 20% more votes, we would not already have troops in Syria?
If nobody voted and protested instead the broken system would change.
OK, Mr. Weyrich.
We heard you the first time.
You can stop lying now.
IF
everybody was like me there would be no problems
IFs dont create solutions if you live on Earth
Solutions often start with dreams which are based on ifs and what ifs.
Yes, I agree, but if you have been "working in" OWS you saw the dreamers create a great movement that changed political discourse to the 99% issue.
If you saw what I saw, in hundreds of hours in hundreds of meetings in 18 months, you would have seen the philosophers & dreamers drop out because they refused to acknowledge what the nra & aflcio & tp & aarp & alec already know -
POLITICAL POWER & VOTING IS THE ROUTE TO THE GOALS
We can do what 80% of Americans say they want
We can do what 1,900,000 Americans signed
We can do what 363 local & state resolutions call for
We can do what 1,309 American mayors endorsed
Via one of 13 constitutional amendments already proposed in congress And supported by over 100 congressmen
Virtually every OWS goal –
jobs, taxes, government honesty, energy, environment, economy
all go back to EXACTLY one place
MONEY IN POLITICS
And there is EXACTLY one first step:
╬═╬═╬═╬═╬═╬═╬═╬═╬═╬═╬═╬═╬═╬═╬═╬═╬═╬═╬
A constitutional amendment to
Overturn Citizens United and Corporate Personhood
╬═╬═╬═╬═╬═╬═╬═╬═╬═╬═╬═╬═╬═╬═╬═╬═╬═╬═╬
▬► http://corporationsarenotpeople.webuda.com ◄▬
╬═╬═╬═╬═╬═╬═╬═╬═╬═╬═╬═╬═╬═╬═╬═╬═╬═╬═╬
For a complete analysis of the amendment issue,
http://corporationsarenotpeople.webuda.com
no password or signup
JOIN our OWS Working Group:
http://nycga.net/groups/restore-democracy
Voting only permits minute changes. OWS is about a paradigm shift, and that is what we need at this juncture in human history.
When you look back at European monarchies a few hundred years ago, you forget the differences one king made over another. That's because the differences were of no important consequences. The same will be true when people look back at US and its history of the last 100 years. Nixon, Bush, Obama, Clinton, etc... They only create small changes. The main lines of capitalism, war industry, etc... remain mostly unchanged.
OWS is about revolution. It's about changing the system entirely, and that's why we don't want to play within it. That's useless. It doesn't create the big change we want.
it can only be eaten one bite at a time...
and so with revolutionary change....
In that case, voting is like 0,000001% of the solution. We don't get to vote very often, and it changes very little. There's not much use debating this tactic. Just tell people to vote for what they believe and that's it. The rest of the time you protest and use civil disobedience to make people understand how important socialism is.
so you kvetch about my solution - which is similar to the solutions that
freed slaves
gave women the right to vote
gave 18 year olds the right to vote
but those changes were trivial - to the slaves & the women & the 18 year old soldiers.
specifically, what is your solution ? and you dont have to say the r word
be specific
These things did not happen because of voting, but because of protesting.
The solution is civil disobedience and protesting.
http://www.occupy.com/article/how-big-oil-and-gop-subverted-american-democracy
http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2013/05/20/2035411/virginia-gop-nominee-for-attorney-general-would-force-women-to-report-their-miscarriages-to-police/
http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2013/05/21/2039691/posters-in-washington-capitol-claim-gun-laws-are-just-like-anti-gay-discrimination/
http://www.eclectablog.com/2013/05/apparently-you-cant-cut-your-way-to-prosperity-after-all-flint-emergency-manager-wants-a-tax-increase.html
These are in no way, shape or form, "minute changes"
http://occupywallst.org/forum/tyranny-for-fun-and-profit/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/repelicants-dont-want-no-stinkni-democracy/
There's much more, but I won't confuse you more than you already are.
The fact is, you sound more like this guy, an early Koch cohort, than anything else.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8GBAsFwPglw
At any rate, you will produce the same result.
Who says Nader voters would have voted at all?
You realize over 50% doesnt vote right?
Amen!
The Tyranny of Structurelessness
[revised version]
http://www.bopsecrets.org/CF/structurelessness.htm
bwa hahahaha . … . hahaha HEHEHE BWA hahaha . . . hahaha . .bwa hahahaha . . . hahaha HEHEHE hahaha HEHEHE BWA hahaha . . . . .bwa hahahaha . …….. . hahaha BWA hahaha . . bwa hahahaha . … . ha BWA hahaha . . . bwa ha ha ha ha . . . hahaha HEHEHE BWA hahaha . . . hahaha . .bwa hahahaha . . . hahaha HEHEHE BWA hahaha . . bwa hahahaha . … . hahaha BWA hahaha . . . hahaha ….. .bwa hahahaha . . . hahaha HEHEHE BWA hahaha . . bwa hahahaha . . . hahaha… ..HEHEHE BWA hahaha . . . hahaha . .bwa hahahaha . …….. . hahaha HEHEHE BWA hahaha . . bwa hahahaha . … . hahaha HEHEHE BWA hahaha . . . hahaha . .bwa hahahaha . . . hahaha HEHEHE…**……………….. BWA hahaha . . . bwa ha ha ha ha . . . hahaha HEHEHE BWA hahaha . . . hahaha . .bwa hahahaha . . . hahaha HEHEHE BWA hahaha . . bwa hahahaha . … . hahaha HE HE HE BWA hahaha . . . ….. .bwa hahahaha . . . hahaha HEHEHE BWA hahaha . . bwa hahahaha . . . hahaha HEHEHE BWA hahaha . . . hahaha . .bwa hahahaha . …….. . hahaha HEHEHE BWA hahaha . .
plant
hey - weed
what is YOUR solution that will work?
mine is HJR29 & Elizabeth Warren & Bernie Sanders & Alan Grayson
Like that big bold move to tie interest rates to the banks rate, still leaving students with 50k debt at the age of 23?
Gimme a fuckin break.
My plan is to not count on the Democrats you so blindly follow.
And seriously, "free the women"? Could you be any more melodramatic? You sound like a "there's a war against Christmas" conservative. Lighten up, Francis.
As ususal - trollish complaints about posters & no solutions