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Forum Post: ▬►An appeal for civility◄▬

Posted 1 year ago on Jan. 21, 2013, 11:49 a.m. EST by bensdad (8977)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

I hate censorship, but this forum could be much improved by more civility.
Many of us are angry at Wall Street, angry at alec, angry at Obama, angry at koch.
We may hate them, we may distrust them, we may want to lambaste them.
Venting may make us feel better, but I feel that this forum can be improved with facts and ideas - rather than rants.
I feel that honest discourse on any issue is facilitated by light, not fire.
I have seen attempts at dialog degenerate into dishonesty, name calling and obfuscation to change the subject.

When Ben played with his set of blocks, I told him –
“It’s always easier to knock something down than to build something up”.
So many of our posts knock something – or someone down – with no “up” at all.
While I think name calling of a group or organization is borderline,
name calling an individual – especially a fellow poster – is far over the line.

A few points:
1. Please DO NOT LIE – we all know how easy it is to use the internet to find the truth
2. Please be a mench – when someone asks you a question – answer it
don’t change the subject because you cannot defend your position or don’t know the answer.
3. Please do not post inflammatory “headlines” just to attract attention
4. Please, If you have a source, post the link
5. Getting in the ”last lick” in a debate is just silly
6. Please do not post opinions as facts
7. Slogans are not solutions or informative

If you seek release or if you are a troll – go ahead – rant and rave.

HOWEVER

If you want respect for yourself and your opinions and your ideas,
civility and honesty is much more productive.

72 Comments

72 Comments


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[Deleted]

[-] 7 points by Builder (4202) 1 year ago

It's a veneer; a mask; a front.

Religion is a fraud.

Predatory capitalism is a fraud.

Quantative easing is a fraud.

But civilisation is what we use to justify racism, classism, slavery, and genocide.

[-] 5 points by agkaiser (1307) from Fredericksburg, TX 1 year ago

▬►civilization is a fraud◄▬

"racism, classism, slavery, and genocide" are all in the employ of the frauds that concentrate wealth with leaders who act in their own self interest instead of that of the community. Treacherous leadership is the abomination of human nature by corruption of social instinct that makes civilization a fraud.

[-] 2 points by TrevorMnemonic (5827) 1 year ago

Greed! Causing innocent blood to flow. Entire culture, lost in the overthrow. They came to seize and take whatever they please. Then all they gave back was death and disease. People were left with no choice but to decide. To conform to a system, responsible for genocide. Responsible for genocide. Responsible for genocide...

'AIDS is killing the entire African nation. And a vaccine is still supposedly under preparation. But these governments they don't mind the procrastination. They say "We'll kill them off, take their land and go there for vacation."'

People's culture was strong, it was pure. And if not for that white greed It would've endured.People were left with no choice but to decide to conform to a system. Their minds enslaved. Their souls encaged. Feel the rage. It's brutality can never be undone. But the sun is not yet set. The bass and drums and microphones a threat. That's when ya investigate the crimes from the inside. And see that they're responsible for genocide. Responsible for genocide. Responsible for genocide...

Ya cram ya culture down my throat. Say I'm inferior when I find that I choke. Ya fill my mind with a false sense of history. And then you wonder why I have no identity? Well I'll strike a match and it'll catch and Spread the insight we need A tiny fire, burning bright Shedding light on the darkness of greed

  • Darkness of Greed, RATM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQLfI0_ruMY

[-] 4 points by TrevorMnemonic (5827) 1 year ago

Some people say "there's a corporate takeover" others say "there's a fucking corporate takeover."

As long as the facts are accurate, personally I'm fine with the foul language. But I am also a George Carlin fan.

Supporting members of the corporate state is knocking something down. It's knocking down the people. You should take your own advice Bensdad. Build something up. It is way harder than sticking to the corporate mold.

You do bring up a good point with this though "I have seen attempts at dialog degenerate into dishonesty, name calling and obfuscation to change the subject."

[-] 1 points by bensdad (8977) 1 year ago

I dont complain about vulgarity - I think vulgarity degrades the speaker.
I am a Carlin fan
If you want to see what I built up:
our NYC OWS web site
http://corporationsarenotpeople.webuda.com
I wrote more than half of the non - attributed documents
what do you think of what I built up?

[-] -1 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 1 year ago

Will your web site be partisan too? You have been misrepresenting what this movement is about for a long time. This is just another attempt by a group, or a person in this case to feed off the energy of Occupy by attaching your creed to it on your home page. At best you are erroneously cultivating a belief that our rotten political system can take us where we need to go.

~Odin~

[-] 1 points by bensdad (8977) 1 year ago

"Will your web site be partisan too?"
Go to the web site and decide for yourself
It includes willard, ron paul, witches. Sanders, Warren, Chomsky, Lessig, Cobb, Stevens
frov-- that may be the silliest statement I have ever seen here!
"You have been misrepresenting what this movement is about for a long time."
this is a close second - how can I represent for a leaderless movement?

[-] 1 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 1 year ago

Bensdad, your 17 month continuing history of promoting partisanship on here speaks for itself. Unless you have underwent some sort of an epiphany, and now understand that supporting/promoting candidates of the corporate state...like Obama,.. who continues to betray the 99% in deeds.. under the auspices of OCCUPY.. is not what this struggle is about, and it definitely is not a winning strategy, I will not waste my time in visiting your site again.

And just by viewing your comments here, it is easy to discern that you have not underwent any kind of metamorphosis in your thinking.. By attaching yourself to the robes of OCCUPY, even meeting in the Atrium where so many good OWS people....(who sacrifice so much).. meet, and who understand what this rev is about, does not give your vain attempt to steer this movement into a new partisan direction, ..that you are yearning for... credence. Instead, to me, it is an affront to those courageous, dedicated, mostly young people.

Your brand of activism under the OCCUPY banner... is far more harmful than helpful, in that it gives people the false belief that this rev can be won in the voting booth. We are not protesting the Vietnam War now, with the major difference being the political system then was not broken, and the MSM was not near as corrupt. You fail to understand that.

Finally..."silliest statement[s]"....yes that is accurate in meaning, but the context, and the person 'who is spewing them' is a bit off.

~Odin~.

Addendum: I do hope that I have stayed within your proposed new guiidelines for "civility."

[-] 1 points by bensdad (8977) 1 year ago

Specifically - What do you find on the web site that is partisan?

[-] 1 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 1 year ago

Your history on this forum, for as far back as I can remember shows how partisan you have been. It comes down to this:

Have you rehabilitated yourself? If your below comment is a precursor as to the kind of thing that will be on your site, the answer is: 'I don't thinnnnnk so.' "....but he [Obama] has always stood with us." At this point in our fucked-up history which includes 4 years of his Presidency, how the hell can you say that?! That's simply an outrageous thing to say, and it's total bull shit. I'll let you research the examples in how Obama has betrayed us. Doing so, it will have more of an impact on you, and who knows? People do change.

I'm not into going to a lot of OWS or OTS meetings, but in the ones that I have attended, if someone got up and said what you said, I think people would laugh. Really.

Or the other possibility: Will you placate us in your new web site with stuff that you do not truly believe, for the sake of having a successful site that resembles what this movement is about?

~Odin~

[-] 1 points by bensdad (8977) 1 year ago

I will ask you exactly one more time
http://corporationsarenotpeople.webuda.com
Specifically - What do you find on the web site that is partisan?

[-] 2 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 1 year ago

"I will ask you exactly one more time" .... or what?!

Once you have a history, you have to live with it. Unless you have underwent some drastic change in your thinking which does not seem likely considering your 'outrageous' above comment here, i will not waste my time on your site.

I think that you might be breaking your proposed rule #5.

~Odin~

[-] 1 points by imagine40 (383) 1 year ago

I found your Occupy website valuable, informative, and non partisan. I support your personal beliefs have offended some who disagree. I support your freedom of speech/expression. I do not speak for occupy but they are clearly made up of leftist people. Many do not support either party. I see weakness (as well as some corruption) in Democrats, and anti 99% criminal guilt in Republicans. I wish we could undo all the problems our political system suffers from. I think your websites "money out of politics" goal is the best 1st priority to do just that. Good luck. Do not be dissuaded by those who disagree and attack you. Occupy certainly prefers to stay out of political campaigns but does not turn away Democrats (or republicans) who support our agenda. Thanks for all your hard work.

[-] 0 points by WSmith (1977) from Cornelius, OR 1 year ago

There are people on this board who think anything but drum-circle or burrito-feed anarchist playdates are a travesty. They are lost to political reality, they dream of unicorns they can pet and feed.

[-] 0 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 1 year ago

Another partisan, who believes in the politicians' lies, I take. You don't like burritos, drum circles, or anarchist honeys?

~Odin~

[-] 0 points by WSmith (1977) from Cornelius, OR 1 year ago

Stop, you're making waves in the unicorn reflection pond!

[-] 0 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 1 year ago

You'll have to look for a mirror now.

~Odin~

[-] -2 points by livingston9 (-154) 1 year ago

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EjmtSkl53h4

Seems you missed this one. Carlin finally got something right.

[-] 1 points by TrevorMnemonic (5827) 1 year ago

You get your science from a comedian?

You should get your laughs from comedians and your science from scientists. May I again suggest James Hansen.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cj1wcs7SZj0

[-] -1 points by WSmith (1977) from Cornelius, OR 1 year ago

Better than a unicorn reflection pond!

[-] 0 points by TrevorMnemonic (5827) 1 year ago

Didn't they just let HSBC and Goldman Sachs off the hook without a single prosecution?

What did they do with all that torture evidence? Still suppressing it?

[-] 0 points by WSmith (1977) from Cornelius, OR 1 year ago

Didn't their Cheney & W puppets allow all that? How far do you think they'll let rouge Dems go trying to prosecute it? I'd sick Nader on 'em.

The "We the People" he spoke of is us. Get off the unicorn and join forces, We the People are the ultimate rouges.

[-] 1 points by TrevorMnemonic (5827) 1 year ago

Yes they did. I'm pointing out they're both doing it.

Goldman Sachs gives money to their campaigns, they then voted to give billions to Goldman Sachs. - AKA racketeering.

People funded by Wall Street are not going to save you from Wall Street.

What are your thoughts on a Citi Bank fraud becoming the head of the treasury? Keep in mind he is the same guy who bet in hopes the housing market would collapse so Citi could profit.

Whatever happened to all that torture evidence?

[-] -1 points by WSmith (1977) from Cornelius, OR 1 year ago

You are always pointing out they are both the same, and you are always completely wrong!!!

You always ignore who is really in power, who owns the Cons and sabotages the Dems, relentlessly. You always ignore the damage and political reality our collective electoral negligence has caused, incessantly. And you loyally resume your ignorance of how abjectly more atrocious Cons really are. Thus you remain, as always, a covert RepubliCon Zombie, as before. Here to waste our time, diffuse all concerted effective efforts and actions, and mislead the gullible down the unicorn path of irrelevance. Despite the devastating revelations of Con skullduggery and subsequent defeats, just like the rest of the Zombies, covert and overt.

[-] 1 points by TrevorMnemonic (5827) 1 year ago

Let me tell you the story of 2008

Goldman Sachs gives money to Obama. Obama votes to give them billions. Goldman Sachs also gave money to Bush, he then signs the bill.

What are your thoughts on a Citi Bank fraud becoming the head of the treasury? Keep in mind he is the same guy who bet in hopes the housing market would collapse so Citi could profit.

People funded by Wall Street are not going to save you from Wall Street.

VQ leaves me alone and now Wsmith appears to troll and call me a republican. You party hacks are exactly that - HACKS.

[-] 0 points by WSmith (1977) from Cornelius, OR 1 year ago

More obfuscation!

Covert-Conzie!!

[-] 0 points by TrevorMnemonic (5827) 1 year ago

Said the openly corporate banker run government supporter.

[-] 0 points by brightonsage (4494) 1 year ago

rogues?

[-] 3 points by WSmith (1977) from Cornelius, OR 1 year ago

Civility is nice, like honesty and decorum.

I always say, when I scream for more ammo, don't expect a "please."

It's class war, and we're losing. "This ain't no disco..."

In a political world rife with deliberate treachery, fraud, sabotage, Fox, Cons, suicide bombers and Hillbilly Taliban, you want manners? There are people on this board who think anything but drum-circle or burrito-feed anarchist playdates are a travesty.

We need intelligence, discipline and unity ~ etiquette is an ill-fitting frill, like a ribbon on a Hurt Locker head wound.

Sticks and stones... let the fools reveal themselves.

If you care about our country and our people, we have hard and very mean work to do.

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[-] 3 points by Justoneof99 (80) 1 year ago

We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are. Maybe it is time for us to grow up, take responsibility for our own lives, love our neighbor, and do what little we can every day to make the world a better place.

[-] 2 points by brightonsage (4494) 1 year ago

Well, without reading down the posts that got here first, I agree with you and I have tried to comply with your seven rules. I might have broken one here or there, most likely the one about posting the link. But I have posted a lot of them and the ones I have missed where not to mislead, but more likely laziness on my part blamed on need to go do something else.

I was glad you didn't rule out humor, because it is a tool I may over use but appreciate in others. I would observe that you have lived by your rule set and have brought a barge full of useful facts and another full of thought provoking points of view. Now I am through sucking up and will read the posts below.

[-] 2 points by arturo (3169) from Shanghai, Shanghai 1 year ago

Our crisis today is not only a financial crisis, but a crisis of civilization itself. As the man says, the solution is to be more civilized, not less.

[-] 0 points by WSmith (1977) from Cornelius, OR 1 year ago

"Our crisis today is" a class war waged on us by the 1%! And our obliviousness to it!

[-] 3 points by arturo (3169) from Shanghai, Shanghai 1 year ago

The class war, which you mention, includes as its objective the degradation, and possibly, the complete destruction of our civilization.

[-] 0 points by oldJim (-96) 1 year ago

When do you think the NWO will start WWIII? Are you acquainted with Zhou Lang? He's a member of the NWO living in Foshan Dongguan. I heard their groups meets at Shangxiajiu every month.

[-] 2 points by arturo (3169) from Shanghai, Shanghai 1 year ago

I think they have been trying to start WW3 for over a year now, they may or may not be able to pull it off. If we can get Glass Steagall passed, the war could be prevented from happening.

Zhou Lang I'm not familiar with. Foshan and Dongguan are two different cities near where I live. Shangxiajiu is a shopping street here in Guangzhou. How is it that you are familiar with China?

[-] 0 points by oldJim (-96) 1 year ago

Iv'e met Zhou Lang a few times. He wanted to recruit me in the NWO. I visited his group at their meeting location in Shangxiajiu. In the end, I decided to opt out. I didn't agree with some of their plans.

[-] 1 points by Kavatz (464) from Edmonton, AB 1 year ago

I agree with your list though it's hard to restrain myself when someone misses my point or reads two paragraphs of an idea and says something like "Worst idea ever." I hold off on replying until I've re-read my post, and often think "Hey, this is actually feedback I can use to further my point or adjust my logic."

Did you find though that there was too much talk about guns here recently? It really seemed like a distraction to me, but I realized they (aside from conspiracy seekers, who I appreciate), probably have no where else to express themselves. That can't be taken away from them.

Some people cant write that good. Unfortunately we can't judge a book by it's cover, because I think some of the stupidest people have some of the best solutions. Not only that, if we don't dumb down our language, we are only reaching a fraction of the potential audience.

I guess what I'm saying is, if someone is being a fucker then they should get booted. If someone has a problem expressing himself but has good intentions, isn't using this for personal gain (advertizing, hidden agenda, etc.), or isn't here to undermine the movement, I don't mind. Your list is best practice for sure.

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[Removed]

[-] 0 points by GirlFriday (17435) 1 year ago

I like being civil. I have a low tolerance for BS. I know when I'm being played. I'm going to keep playing right back at 'em.

[-] 2 points by peacehurricane (293) 1 year ago

Then why would you tell me to go back to rock I crawled out from? I

[-] 0 points by GirlFriday (17435) 1 year ago

You know why.

[-] 2 points by peacehurricane (293) 1 year ago

Actually if I did know I would not ask! You are off your mark here if you mean anything besides my all in position because I give my life for this... I am alive and free with the best for all in love...WE

[-] 1 points by GirlFriday (17435) 1 year ago

I have a low tolerance for BS.

^^^^

You just got the memo.

[-] 2 points by peacehurricane (293) 1 year ago

Wow that surprises me you certainly are bright enough to keep tolerance in check with what you give. You can keep the memo I will speak here transparent like

[-] 1 points by GirlFriday (17435) 1 year ago

Pfffttt............save your sob story.

[-] 2 points by peacehurricane (293) 1 year ago

Yours is a sob story? Well talking as you have to me of good intent this is not surprising though I am not sure this is the place for it

[-] 0 points by GirlFriday (17435) 1 year ago

You're the one cryin'. So, stop the sniveling, lil Stacy buckaroo.

[-] 0 points by bensdad (8977) 1 year ago

OK- I confess - I'm an Obama speech writer - did you catch this today?
We cannot mistake absolutism for principle, or substitute spectacle for politics, or treat name-calling as reasoned debate.
read my OP & guess who wrote that line
☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺

[-] 0 points by DKAtoday (26690) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

It is funny - well - kinda - but the presidential inaugural address to the public sounded like it was aimed at OWS/Occupy groups.

[-] 2 points by gsw (2697) 1 year ago

There were times of the speech, when he spoke on better wages, and USA can't tolerate increasing wealth inequality, felt like he consulted occupywallst.org as a resource for his speech.

And citizen involvement--organizing for action??? Using tech to increase citizen involvement.

And we must push our congress to support this and get this.

Did he mention citizens united? I don't recall.

We should take him up on all this.

[-] 1 points by bensdad (8977) 1 year ago

I am not ashamed to say I voted for Obama
[for those who did not know]
but he has not always stood with us.


I believe his recent actions and this speech point to two major changes that will be very powerful: 1: He is now willing to acknowledge the Rs for what they are -
obstructionist shills for the 1% that cannot be trusted or partnered with
2: Power to the people: he will be calling on - we the people - to pressure congress to support his goals for the 99%

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (26690) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

The public should very well push for follow through.

Fundamental change for the better will only come through the involvement/actions of the People.

[-] 1 points by bensdad (8977) 1 year ago

I sincerly hope that he is done with compromise
I believe he WILL fight for the 99%
perfectly? no
but clearly he is done with the obstructionists who are paid by the 1%

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (26690) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

I like your optimism - but have seen nothing so far to make me think that his public words are anything more then lip service. He has gotta show me some works - some real concerted efforts before I will begin to even think it is anything more then lip service.

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (26690) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

The speech shows he is hearing our ( OWS/Occupy ) conversations.

Stlll

Fundamental change for the better will only come through the involvement/actions of The People.

[-] 0 points by engineer4 (352) 1 year ago

I do not believe he is "hearing it" vs just co-opting popular word speak. Someone else likely inserted these phrases to make it sound good. It is time for some real "show me". Popular word speak makes for great 10 second news spots, and that is all. Instead of all the divisive issues, let's get the people back to work. Unemployment is still too high, but no one talks about that.

[-] 1 points by OTP (-203) from Tampa, FL 1 year ago

All do respect, but what are you basing those assumptions on?

[-] 0 points by auargent (-600) 1 year ago

If you're a low info person, yes it was.

[-] 0 points by DKAtoday (26690) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

Sorry have no idea what your comment is for. That is the problem with these threads - often times a reply is far removed from the comment it is meant for.

[-] -2 points by bigjoe (-117) 1 year ago

Funny DK, I felt Obama was slapping gun owners around. Not being sarcastic, trying to civil. I really think he’s going after the gun owners.

That said. The OP is right, there is a serious lack of civility on this forum.

[-] -1 points by FawkesNews (1290) 1 year ago

This forum was once a valuable resource for information. Referring someone to it gave them empowerment, inspiration and often the impetus to take action. At the very least, it was an opportunity to gain enough knowledge to confidently discuss issues in ones personal life. Participants were sharing knowledge and ideas, at a rate seldom seem.

Today this forum has little ability to do any of these things. In fact, referring someone here often causes them to become discouraged, and defiant thus, discrediting the person referring others here. This forum has adopted a sort of 'chat room' atmosphere, unbecoming of legitimate or intelligent discourse.

This forum is no longer a necessary outlet for the sharing of the information it was once so rich in. The information has resonated outward. It has spread to the commonplace. People who continue to utilize this outlet for sharing information and ideas, deserve a round of applause for continuing to do so, while the detractors and shills intent upon disrupting that flow of information, while seemingly successful here, are faced with a uncontrollable supply of it elsewhere.

These are my opinions and in no way are intended to be interpreted as anything but.

[-] 4 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 1 year ago

This forum is still a wonderful place to learn from, and exchange ideas. You just have to weed through some of the crap. That's all.

~Odin~

[-] 2 points by FawkesNews (1290) 1 year ago

Of course.

I refuse to throw the baby out with the bathwater when it comes to the knowledge this forum has to offer.

"People who continue to utilize this outlet for sharing information and ideas, deserve a round of applause for continuing to do so,..."

[-] 3 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 1 year ago

Golly....speaking for all the good posters here...thanks. ;-)

~Odin~

[-] 2 points by FawkesNews (1290) 1 year ago

So long as information can be shard and more people can become informed, this forum has value.

[-] 1 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 1 year ago

Yes, I'm in agreement, with the caveat being that we, OWS does not become a branch of a political party. It is not about keeping our 'purity' that concerns me, but rather about headng down a dead-end road. Our value is outside the political system. By being there, we undoubtedly have, and will continue to effect change from within. And I could give a shit who takes credit for any positive developments.

~Odin~

[-] 1 points by FawkesNews (1290) 1 year ago

"Once you replace negative thoughts with positive ones, you'll start having positive results." Willie Nelson

[-] 1 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 1 year ago

Good quote, and very true..thanks. We are up against a very "negative," corrupt system, but the people who i know well in this movement are "positive", and they are some of the best people that I have ever known in my entire life.

~Odin~

[-] 1 points by FawkesNews (1290) 1 year ago

“Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.” Friedrich Nietzsche

I appreciate wisdom regardless of it's origin.

[-] 0 points by WSmith (1977) from Cornelius, OR 1 year ago

BUH BYE!!

[-] 2 points by FawkesNews (1290) 1 year ago

Thanks for your input.