Forum Post: Address the real problem!!!
Posted 12 years ago on March 11, 2012, 7:48 p.m. EST by LSN45
(535)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
There are a lot of improvements that need to be made. The list of reforms Americans want to see is long and varied depending on who you talk to. That said, I believe there is one reform that would provide the American people the best chances of seeing other meaningful reforms actually happen - that is REAL, loop-hope free CAMPAIGN FINANCE REFORM! I have seen others on this site calling this the "fulcrum" or pivotal issue. Right now the current legalized bribery, pay-to-play system of campaign donations and paid lobbyists has disenfranchised the American voter. Until this is fixed, any other reform the politicians may try to placate us with (be it a change to healthcare, clamping down predatory school loans, new financial regulations, etc.) will be about as effective as a farmer putting a new roof on his CHICKEN COOP, but still letting the FOX guard it.
We need to go back to the original political currency. Instead of the current system of who can collect the most money from corporations and special interests it should be who has the BEST IDEAS to EFFECTIVELY RUN THE COUNTRY (we don't need "Wealth Redistribution," what we need is "Political Influence Redistribution")!
For the sake of our children and future generations of Americans, we need to take back our democracy from the rich and powerful who are using their vast sums of money to "speak" as if they represent millions of Americans. This "Corporate Personhood" that has crept into our laws is allowing them to manipulating our policies in their favor at the expense of the average American (the recent "Citizens United" Supreme Court ruling is a miscarriage of justice and must be reversed. The $50 or $100 a normal American may give to a political campaign becomes meaningless when corporations or other special interests are handing our millions to buy political access to the decision making process.
For decades now the corporations and special interests have had our "representatives" bought and paid for (both on the right and the left). Concentrating our efforts on getting the money out of our politics is the best way we can create an environment in which further reforms can be realized. Until we end the current system of legalized bribery (campaign donations) and paid lobbying our politicians will continue to be the LAP DOGS of the corporations and special interests. What we need first and foremost is real, loop-hole free CAMPAIGN FINANCE REFORM!!!! If the corruption is not dealt with first, the chance of any other meaningful reforms becoming a reality is almost zero - the special interests will just use their money to buy votes and put forward bills that create loop-holes or otherwise twist the law in their favor. If we want our children to live in a country where there vote matters, we need to get the money out of our politics, otherwise they will increasingly become the 21st century version of the "landless peasant." Spread the word - End the LEGALIZED BRIBERY!!! CAMPAIGN FINANCE REFORM needs to be THE main goal of the protests!!!
Bribery in politics is only bad because its results have the potential to harm people. My suggestion is to take the power to harm people away from the organization created to protect their rights (government). That way, any action which violates someone else's rights (no matter who is performing it) would be unlawful. Right now government is the only organization which has the ability to commit violations of right and legally avoid justice.
shield, If you have not already, check out the book "Republic; Lost - How money corrupts Congress and a plan to stop it" by Lawrence Lessig. It is a very recent book by a Harvard Law Professor. I could not put it down. I think he correctly diagnoses the problem and offers several potential solutions. He admits that the likelihood of any of them actually coming to pass is slim, but he likens the fight to one that a parent would do for a child with cancer. I don't think you will be disappointed.
Sounds interesting. I'll put it on my list.
There is only one issue. GET THE JOBS back in america.. stop the outsourcing, prohibit the operation of companies that where more than 5 % of the workforce is not in this country.
gestopornillyy, If you have not already, check out the book "Republic; Lost - How money corrupts Congress and a plan to stop it" by Lawrence Lessig. It is a very recent book by a Harvard Law Professor. I think he correctly diagnoses the problem and offers several potential solutions. He admits that the likelihood of any of them actually coming to pass is slim, but he likens the fight to one that a parent would do for a child with cancer. I don't think you will be disappointed.
thanks
Reform is an exercise in futility for now. The problem with progressives is that they can NOT come together and work on a single issue like this. Inevitably, many want to tackle complex issues like helping the Palestinians get a State. Also, the vast majority of progressives are TOO LAZY, they do not want to do the hard work, esp. the last two generations which, in comparison to my generation and older ones, are too immersed with themselves, not very educated, generally VERY uninformed, lack dedication and commitment, etc. There are exceptions to this of course but for every 100 people at any meeting or congregation, less than five will commit themselves to 5 hours of work per week on average. I mean work not just going to a demo and holding a sign. That is easy and DOES NOT work.
While I see the reason behind many of your points, I don't see why you would state that this generation is "not very educated".
http://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=372
Record college enrollment in this generation.
Quoting statistics on college enrollment as proof of education is like quoting govt. statistics on employment and inflation. Generally speaking, quality is inversely proportional to quality (and if you can't understand this point, it only confirms my suspicions). Education in America has been going downhill for forty years or more. An 'A' in the 1960s would be the equivalent of a 'B' at best in today's world. And I know what I am talking about as a former teacher. Grade inflation is rampant as is cheating.
What a load of bullshit without any solid evidence. If you are a teacher, I question the quality of teacher you are. You match the profile of someone who couldn't even get into college.
I love sign holders
I think a lot of laziness stems from the fact that so many people in America actually have very comfortable lives. It is hard for someone to get really motivated when they are comfortable.
Precisely how do you propose to get your ideas implemented, presumably first by OWS before they come before Congress?
RedJazz, If you have not already, check out the book "Republic; Lost - How money corrupts Congress and a plan to stop it" by Lawrence Lessig. It is a very recent book by a Harvard Law Professor. I think he correctly diagnoses the problem and offers several potential solutions. He admits that the likelihood of any of them actually coming to pass is slim, but he likens the fight to one that a parent would do for a child with cancer. I don't think you will be disappointed.
My question was academic. As a socialist I'm personally not especially interested in how a bourgeois state might solve its crises.
Ok - I understand. I appreciate the reply Thanks
READY TO SEE SERIOUS TRACTION? What if millions of Americans & most GA's supported THIS massive action on AUGUST 4th??
Posted 11 hours ago on Feb. 26, 2012, 4:09 a.m. EST by therising (2864) This content is user submitted and not an official statement What: Massive Non-Violent Direct action to accomplish specific goals using proven nonviolent tactics. When: August 4th Where: Capitol Hill, Washington, DC
http://occupywallst.org/forum/ready-to-see-serious-traction-what-if-millions-of-/
July 4, 2012, in the City Of Philadelphia. National General assembly
Posted 0 minutes ago on March 2, 2012, 3:51 p.m. EST by MattLHolck (5333) | edit | delete This content is user submitted and not an official statement
https://sites.google.com/site/ngaphilly2112/
WE, THE NINETY-NINE PERCENT OF THE PEOPLE of the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, in order to form a more perfect Union, by, for and of the PEOPLE, shall elect a NATIONAL GENERAL ASSEMBLY to convene on July 4, 2012, in the City Of Philadelphia.
https://sites.google.com/site/ngaphilly2112/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/july-4-2012-in-the-city-of-philadelphia-national-g/
why doesn't the occupy movement adopt the declaration and support it.
What if? What if? What I'd really be interested in is how. I've seen countless ideas proposed on this forum, but I've never seen a single discussion on this forum regarding how one proposes going about actually getting any idea implemented by any local GA and I'd be most interested in that. This forum seems to be about the only place where Pollock's sect has any credibility. It's certainly been discredited by every local GA that I'm aware of and even by most moderate journalistic supporters of OWS.
noted
It will never happen. People have talked about this for decades now. Anyone who thinks Congress is going to do anything in anyway to impact their entrenched status quo should be institutionalized in a psycho ward. Everyone knows we need (1) Congressional term limits, (2) campaign finance reform, and (3) election reform, at a minimum. But this will never happen. I repeat -- this will NEVER happen.
Come on, lighten up dog:)
Americans do not need congress in order to have a convention to propose amendments to the constitution.
Article. V.
The Congress, whenever two thirds of both Houses shall deem it necessary, shall propose Amendments to this Constitution, or, on the Application of the Legislatures of two thirds of the several States, shall call a Convention for proposing Amendments, which, in either Case, shall be valid to all Intents and Purposes, as Part of this Constitution, when ratified by the Legislatures of three fourths of the several States, or by Conventions in three fourths thereof, as the one or the other Mode of Ratification may be proposed by the Congress; Provided that no Amendment which may be made prior to the Year One thousand eight hundred and eight shall in any Manner affect the first and fourth Clauses in the Ninth Section of the first Article; and that no State, without its Consent, shall be deprived of its equal Suffrage in the Senate.
or by Conventions in three fourths thereof, as the one or the other Mode of Ratification may be proposed by the Congress;
Rather than "massive civil unrest", people in 3/4 of the states should demand under their constitition that their state legislation agree to propose and ratify needed amendment. May means, "if we let them", we do not let them. F, them.
You can go into the streets enmasse and threaten "massive civil unrest" in between loud demands for Article V, with reasoning spokes people backed by constitutionally well versed citizens.
Get the picture? I've been checking out some of the info on the OWS forum. Aside from obvious gov trolls infiltrating and there is some good info. This forum,
http://articlevconvention.org/forumdisplay.php?61-Specific-Amendments-Of-National-Concern
seems to have serious strategy for preparatory amendment with proper priorities for states delegates to agree to that are so constitutional if your state does not agree, impeach them IMMEDIATELY.
forourfutures, Thanks so much for posts - I have not been able to check back with the forum for several days, and your responses to the naysayers are exactly what I would have sent back. If you have not already read it, check out the book "Republic Lost - How money corrupts congress" by Lawrence Lessig. I finished reading it a few weeks ago, and the author hit the nail on head. It correctly identifies the problem and the potential solutions.
Yes, Lessig knows whats gone down. His power point on Article V.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gpbfY-atMk
Article V strategy http://vimeo.com/33945510
2011 Harvard conference comments http://vimeo.com/31464745
I'm beginning to suspect a mass misleading of people of academia regarding the societal mechanisms of change. Here's an example.
http://www.thenationalgeneralassembly.org/forum/?cid=7&show=16#cid=1,tid=26
I found it by reading that articlevconvention.org forum. User there is over at the national general assembly trying to explain to them what they think they are doing.
Seriously, there is a big cognition problem by my read. The gist, = the general assembly folk think that a "99% declaration via a petition for redress of grievance" somehow will have an effect with no legal process to apply.
From my experience people work their way back from the existing contract to the first when performance is sought. The constitution, Article V, hasn't been tried yet. Sure, states have been asking, but academia deliberately deprived generations of knowledge of it so the people have not tried it. Instead socialism was taught.
The people there don't seem to be able to think with actual law and fact. Looks like a social precept of action everyone there has agreed upon as functional but has no basis in current law:?-
I see a "divide and conquer" effect.
Another OWS person who points to theoretical proof as if it is doable. Dude, do you realize how impossible it would be to get 3/4s of state legislatures to approve an Amendment to the Constitution? The framers did it this was so that hardly any changes could ever to made except the most obvious ones (eliminating slavery, giving voting privileges to former slaves and women, chaning voting age, direct election of senators, etc.). THEY WOULD NEVER allow an amendment to finance elections publicly. The OWS movement is a naive, child-like, idealist, pie-in-the-sky group of dreamers. They would rather believe in fantasies THAN ever get serious and become real organizers. Pathetic. This group is less than useless. I think that it best that y'all go home and continue to play your video games and otherwise entertain yourselves with electronic gadgets. That fact that you can write stuff on this sight gives you the absolute ILLUSION of power or having influence. You and nearly everybody in this movement is a joke. No balls, no commitment, just the same old tired repetition of the same old shit. See the Tea Party for those who actually did something. (And I am an Leftist). This site is just more evidence of absolute pathetic state of the LEFT. It's enough to make me want to cry. A bunch of loser wanabes.
I sincerely hope you are right, and that We The People can change Congress. But in the 40 years that I have been observing the US Government, I have seen no indication whatsoever that they do anything that is going to diminish their power. They may give Women the right to vote, and provide for Civil Rights, but none of the Amendments that have been passed limit their power. None.
Your points show why congress evaded their duty for 100 years. Dost confirms what you express Underdog. Dost "Another OWS person who points to theoretical proof as if it is doable. Dude, do you realize how impossible it would be to get 3/4s of state legislatures to approve an Amendment to the Constitution?"
I've learned what you say is true, but from reading what those who know it better than both of us and WILL NOT give up on the constitution have to say, I've learned that legal process must be followed, THEN we can escalate. If we do that before the legal process we fit into the perceptions the PTB want to create AND they have the media to share that.
Here is the legal process underway.
http://articlevconvention.org/showthread.php?27-AG-Holder-Thread
I don't expect holder to do anything except evade, but who knows the future? That is why the process must be engaged to make things fact.
Dost, the author of this other thread art the articlevconvention.org forum has put forth a concept of "preparatory amendment" which seems very powerful, at the heart of what America means to us historicaly in a political sense.
http://articlevconvention.org/showthread.php?33-Amendment-By-Layers-Of-Priority-Amendment-Package-Making-CONST.-Intent
Dost good points in your post. "The framers did it this was so that hardly any changes could ever to made"
Some of them absolutely had that intent. They were probably not much more in agreement on anything than we are right now. Others fought for Article V and the states having the power at the 3/4 majority. Look closely at the proposed preparation for Article V on that last link.
Consider how fundamental that list of 3 things are. 1- Free speech 2- Campaign fairness/reform 3- Secure voting
Those really are what the nation stands for while considering the constitution. This means we are already in the needed agreement in each state to force by just about any means, that the state enforce the constitution by have a convention and acting with the other states.
The big problem is the perceptional problem. You point out the difficulties. I point out the solutions to them. I state we need to discuss the solution not the problem in order to engage the solution.
Underdog "I sincerely hope you are right, and that We The People can change Congress."
I think we have to have hope or sit down and figure out how we are going to give up and agree to life with no constitution. I can't go there. Completely unacceptable.
Dost "THEY WOULD NEVER allow an amendment to finance elections publicly."
I believe you are correct. Therefore we forget them and focus on one another and forming and agreement upon constitutional principle just as the framers did then expand that agreement.
This forum does not stand for what it presents itself as standing for. Therefore to assemble online at a forum that stands for the constitution is logical. One that has a polling feature is even better. This one does.
http://articlevconvention.org
I expect you both to do the logical thing and register here or you will be doing what the PTB want, failing to organize.
You both sound sincere, time to prove it.
You have good points, and I did something I hardly ever do in the heat of the moment. I used the word "Never". Never is a really, really long time a.k.a. Eternity. Not logical or correct for me to use that word. I must be slipping. Old age. Better wording would have been "extremely unlikely".
I will go out to the site and look it over/investigate. Won't just blindly sign or give my name unless I'm absolutely sure it's legit and not just a front for the opposition to gain access to identities, addresses, etc.
I've been learning from that forum. The people there have really tested the government and courts and are posting with well verified aspects you won't find elsewhere. Those aspects are based accomplishing real solution OR a product that has established that government is not constitutional or has no intention of becoming so.
You've made a good point about all legislation being designed to increase power. The other side is that most of it reduces ours and reduces their accountability. That forum has people unafraid to test the government and publish the faiures so we all know and can refer. When one local government fails in a way that compromises the constitution, put them down, in their place, go to the adjoining county and let people know that they have to stop their county from usurping the constitution in any way. These local governments have been infiltrated and small usurpations add up. Sometimes they are hard to understand so we need to keep notes and share them.
Overall restoration of constitutional government must be a national goal, it is our ultimate solution, and discussion on it is vital to conduct. Your perspective is a good one that can serve to inspire when focused on executing legal process upon government to correct it.
These days with the way technology is, if you are on the web, you are pretty much known. Fear is not a functional thing when it comes to discussing law, even if you are using it to oppose the nwo and restore a constitutional government:) -
That's pretty fatalistic. You think Congress wanted to give the right to vote to women? Or Civil Rights to people of color? We need to force a Constitutional Amendment, and the way to do that is through massive civil unrest... taking our cause to the streets. That is what shakes up the status quo and puts fear into the hearts of politicians.
You have the right energy here. The right take on congress for certain. Correct with forcing an amendment, but fail on the "massive civil unrest". I'm not saying that might not be needed, but I would say that another more cerebral approach strategically aligned with the system the pretenders SAY THEY RESPECT.
They pretend to be constitutional, and Americans are conditioned to believe, AFRAID not to show they do not believe. Or they might be labeled ridiculed and minimized out of existence by the flock.
They pretend to be constitutional and the educational system has colluded from at least the 1930's to make Americans ignorant of their first constitutional right, Article V.
Americans do not need congress in order to have a convention to propose amendments to the constitution.
Article. V.
The Congress, whenever two thirds of both Houses shall deem it necessary, shall propose Amendments to this Constitution, or, on the Application of the Legislatures of two thirds of the several States, shall call a Convention for proposing Amendments, which, in either Case, shall be valid to all Intents and Purposes, as Part of this Constitution, when ratified by the Legislatures of three fourths of the several States, or by Conventions in three fourths thereof, as the one or the other Mode of Ratification may be proposed by the Congress; Provided that no Amendment which may be made prior to the Year One thousand eight hundred and eight shall in any Manner affect the first and fourth Clauses in the Ninth Section of the first Article; and that no State, without its Consent, shall be deprived of its equal Suffrage in the Senate.
or by Conventions in three fourths thereof, as the one or the other Mode of Ratification may be proposed by the Congress;
Rather than "massive civil unrest", people in 3/4 of the states should demand under their constitition that their state legislation agree to propose and ratify needed amendment. May means, "if we let them", we do not let them. F, them.
You can go into the streets enmasse and threaten "massive civil unrest" in between loud demands for Article V, with reasoning spokes people backed by constitutionally well versed citizens.
Get the picture? I've been checking out some of the info on the OWS forum. Aside from obvious gov trolls infiltrating and there is some good info. This forum,
http://articlevconvention.org/forumdisplay.php?61-Specific-Amendments-Of-National-Concern
seems to have serious strategy for preparatory amendment with proper priorities for states delegates to agree to that are so fucking constitutional if your state does not agree, impeach the mother fuckers IMMEDIATELY.
It doesn't take much to shake up the authorities. People walking with just signs in 1968 brought out troops with fixed bayonets, APC's and tanks. See these pics: http://johnedwinmason.typepad.com/.a/6a0112791cb10528a40133f459f1a4970b-550wi http://static.guim.co.uk/Guardian/observer/gallery/2008/jan/17/1/PD7860901@29th-March-1968,-Memp-413.jpg
The commitment isn't great. Just people willing to walk a few miles with a sign. It's the numbers, the volume of people in the streets that will make a difference. I think we can all agree that 1) term limits, 2) end lobbying by special interests, and 3) election reform .. should be addressed for a Constitutional Amendment, and placed on these signs.
How about starting a forum topic with a set date and these specific goals to be addressed? All the OWS's in every city speaking the same message and putting serious numbers of people in the street on the same date.
I'm 58 years old, I have participated in antiwar moratoriums... it works, it can work again.
I like the idea, but the NYCGA is not actually supportive of an Article V convention. I've seen 'lip service" type support, and weak at that.
The "brains of OWS" is supposedly the NYCGA. This forum sure ain't. We've got mostly bots and cognitive infiltrators burying meaningful and useful info.
No doubt you've gott'em tho, your 3 points are what those folks at the Article V forum are proposing and it make good sense.
http://articlevconvention.org/showthread.php?33-Amendment-By-Layers-Of-Priority-constitutionAmendment-Package-Making-CONST.-Intent
We are about the same age. I remember the anti vietnam war riots. Demonstrating against things is not getting anything done, it's just stopping things.
Getting Article V done right, solves ALL THE PROBLEMS given some time. I found that link with the preparatory amendments.
http://articlevconvention.org/showthread.php?33-Amendment-By-Layers-Of-Priority-constitutionAmendment-Package-Making-CONST.-Intent
Thanks for the links. I didn't know that there was an Article V forum!
I agree: "Getting Article V done right, solves ALL THE PROBLEMS given some time."
Peace and Solidarity bro'
After searching it, I found another run by ex justice Thomas Brennan.
https://www.conventionusa.org/
It's more formal and there's no polling feature while the forum software doesn't have the features of the http://articlevconvention.org site.
It might be a good thing to use the http://articlevconvention.org to discuss, digest, hammer concepts out with the polling feature, then assemble more formally at Brennans site to show consolidated agreement that can refer to the discussion that caused it on the other site.
I sincerely hope you are right, and that We The People can change Congress. But in the 40 years that I have been observing the US Government, I have seen no indication whatsoever that they do anything that is going to diminish their power. They may give Women the right to vote, and provide for Civil Rights, but none of the Amendments that have been passed limit their power. None.
It hasn't been demanded in the same manner as Civil Rights or Womens Sufferage.... until maybe now I hope.
I agree with you that it is very unlikely to happen, but at the same time it is a lot more likely than a lot of the other stuff that is proposed on this site. For example, just from a quick look at the most recent posts, things like lower interest rates for poorer people and replacing capitalism with Anarcho-Syndicalism are two things which are even less likely yet they are fairly popular within the group.