Forum Post: a question to conservatives. healthcare, who pays?
Posted 11 years ago on Nov. 11, 2012, 3:52 p.m. EST by quantumystic
(1710)
from Memphis, TN
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
if we cant have a government single payer plan and we cant force business to insure employees how are people supposed to have insurance?
What would happen if insurance was simply abolished and the people decided they arent paying these outrageous prices anymore?
How many people does it take to say Im mad as hell and Im not going to take it.....to get change?
Good point. Rid medical of insurance, corporations, investors, excess administrators, unnecessary/hazardous diagnostics and price gouging.
'Just say no', to all this garbage.
good question.
I also wonder what is the cost of a doctor to set up a shop with the basic equipment and some xray stuff, and spread that cost over 5 years, and then throw in his 100k a year.
What would his hourly rate be?
I think that's relatively easy to determine. What's the cost of cat scan machine? 2- 300,000? And if the average price of a scan is 1500, then that machine pays for itself after 200 visits; even if it only performs one scan a week is paid for within three or four years. The point is, they over charge tremendously. And when we enter the area of specialist, we find typical costs running into thousands per hour simply for analysis and advice if, for example, hospitalized - surgery now runs into an hourly rate of tens of thousands. Congress will not take on the rich and powerful of the many state and national medical associations; nor will they address illegal immigration which in many areas has forced hospitals into bankruptcy.
http://gawker.com/5921218/doctor-who-has-worked-seven-days-a-week-since-the-50s-still-charges-patients-five-dollars-a-visit
Thats incredible. This guy would probably be the perfect person to interview on what is wrong with the current state of health insurance.
I agree. There is also a female doctor that lives in a rural area that has been known to barter for services because the people have no money.
One needs to go through a serious medical operation to appreciate the cost of medical. I had a knee surgery that lasted about five hours. Before they put me under, aside from all this high tech medical equipment there were three Doctors in the room, and about ten nurses and other sorts of techs, and nobody in that room looked like a dummy. None of that is cheap, and somehow that has all got to be paid for. luckily I had insurance.
Insurance is like a community bank; a collective. Not everybody ends up having to have an expensive surgery, but every one has the probability of having to have such a surgery. So it makes sense for everybody to pay into a pot, so that whoever the one is who is so unlucky to end up under a knife, will at least be able to pay for it. The problem with health insurance is when not everyone is contributing what they can into the pot.
What was the total bill?
I had a dislocated elbow in 2003. Two people pulling on my arm. 7k. Total bullshit.
I have no idea. My insurance paid for it.
3 Doctors and 10 Nurses for a knee surgery?
Yup. that is what it takes..
If you want to drive up the cost of a thing offer insurance for it.
BTW, if there were no health insurance would people take better care of themselves (eat better, exercise, give up cigarettes and alcohol, avoid risky behaviors)?
Why does it cost so much that most are bankrupted, even if they have insurance, or have to settle for quacks, leeches/(low Quality HC) or no healthcare at all if they're poor? Why is the "world's best healthcare" rationed to the top ten percent of net worth in America? Why do we put up with the rich parasites. We'd rid ourselves of any other vermin that were eating up our provender!
Well, we would have had a better deal if we didn't have so many ignorant, lying, coniving low-lifes running around saying shit like rapists will have access to Viagra and ZOMG death panels.
The death panels will exist in the form of, sorry, but you're not covered for that.
The death panels existed, as it were, in the form of, not covered for that with insurance. It was a bunch of bs drama.You know it, I know it and so does the rest of the world.
No... most with, for example, a blue cross family policy can go anywhere they like for care; not all doctors are participating but they do have access. Single payer will seek to limit spending in the form of both reduced benefit and denial of service. A perfect example of this would be the cancer patient that belongs in Sloan Kettering but has an HMO; the HMO denies service, as in, "sorry, but that is not covered." And the patient, or their family, ends up with a 100k bill.
Mandatory insurance will not address our healthcare concerns, either. Because even the average family insurance policy has so reduced benefit in relation to the escalation of healthcare costs, that even with insurance we are still being stuck with some portion of the final bill that most will find unaffordable - the patient has no legal recourse, that bill goes to a collection agency, and eventually salaries are garnished and liens are placed on homes. A family medical policy (and really people need two family policies; the coordination of benefits will help to cover that which the primary policy fails to cover) costs about $1250. a month right now. The secondary policy is about $450. a month. Sorry to say, but even with but one policy, there are a lot who find those numbers beyond their reach.
Unless Congress addresses its spending so it can afford single payer, while simultaneously addressing the rising cost of healthcare, the average person will soon NOT have any healthcare in this country. Because most can't afford a good family policy, let alone a good "Cadillac" family policy. Obama stuck it to us on this one. And then he had the audacity to reduce our medical write-off and pre-tax medical savings accounts.
Here is the situation. As it stands right at this moment, people are being denied health care. When the public option came off the table, the people were fucked. What we need is universal health care. Insurance companies are worthless.
There is NO sane reason to defend insurance companies.
Another worthy campaign to continue.
You know, there are people that need a surgery that will save their life and a hospital refuses to do the surgery because they have no insurance. It happens on a repeated basis.
It really pisses me off.
It should be declared murder. Murder by depraved indifference. Same thing with the existence of life saving drugs that Pharma stopped making because they decided that there was not enough profit in them.
Yep and for what? For cash. Talk about gangbangers.
Profits over people - a leading killer and entirely unnecessary. Should be totally criminal. This "IS" definitely a campaign to forward.
Now thanks to obamacare your case will be reviewed before a board to see if you worth fixing up, etc. Or you may have a very long wait to get the care you need
It was like that before. It is like that now.
maybe but with obamacare once you reach a certain age, you are done
No maybe about it. Cannot access healthcare now and haven't been able to before. As it stands now, you are already done at a certain age.
And that can be any age - just need life saving care and have no money or insurance and you are done.
I agree. Many households will fold if a medical emergency occurs. Many households already have.
Profits over people one of the great ills of society that has brought us to this very mess we are in today - economic meltdown - homeless people - loss of jobs - poor education - inadequate health care - polluted/poisoned land air water etc etc etc
Insurance companies have regional monopolies, there is no competition; at some point 20 years or so ago, Congress allowed them to invest, they have suffered losses; and there remains to be seen what effect Dodd Frank will have, but the clause, I'm quite certain, was inserted for a reason and not to the benefit of the consumer.
Here is the situation: current estimates for lifetime medical care can be conservatively estimated at one million apiece; 310 million people yields a figure of 310 trillion; if Congress puts aside 310 tril right now, and safeguards it, with interest, single payer is doable. If it does not, that healthcare will be sold to private corporations, and they will NOT be American corporations, and that's the real situation - foreign wealth intends to purchase our social services on a for-profit basis. And they will do it because this country is beyond broke.
Everything is budgets and dollars, whether you like it or not; that is reality.
Intentionally crashing healthcare for working class people in this country is not a nice thing to do; if this is your "social justice," and I understand it may very well be, then we want no part of it. And bear in mind, that this is not a caste system; we who speak for the working class speak for all levels of the middle class as well, because they are family.
The next Rep who wins in this country may very well run on healthcare reform; it was the reason I voted for McCain the first time. And no doubt, I will vote economically again. Because for us, it is quite literally, a matter of survival.
What health care for working class people? Who the hell are you?
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2965354/
You are too late.
That's what are you? It's not a person. It's a signal repeater like an automatic telegraph station on a very long transmission line. This sub-machine duplicates con propaganda and really isn't conscious of anything. It's just a brain dead component. A small part of the insidious machine that owns America.
Ya know, you have to be incredibly sheltered to not be aware of any of this.
I'm not sure how corporate international expansion makes single-payer more affordable; are you? That is the issue; it is one of affordability.
All of this corporate abuse is fully containable if Congress is willing to act, but they are not. Rising healthcare costs are containable if they are willing to act, but they are not. This is the very reason regional insurance monopolies exist - those who are unwilling to comply are not licensed.
And so we have a conundrum - an unaffordable single-payer versus the inability of state and federal governors to act on behalf of the people in regulating both the healthcare industry and those that provide insurance. As I said, the working class, in the future, will have NO healthcare. And thank you very much, Mr President.
I didn't say that it had anything to do with making it more affordable.
The working class DOESN'T have health care now. THANK YOU.
haha... actually many of them do, and many of the self-employed are paying for it themselves. Single-payer would be a beautiful thing if you can find a away to ante up the trillions to pay for it; I don't believe we can.
Unless we eliminate the Fed and the debt.
The top 1% have a third of the more than 50 trillion in American Net worth. If we tax everything with a $5 Million deduction for everyone (we're all taxed the same) we can raise over $11 Trillion. then there's the next 9% who own an other third.
A 100% property tax with a $5 M deduction. Now that's a fair tax!
Oh! I underestimated the trillions to be gained by this just tax/confiscation of ill gotten gains of the ruling elite parasites. They are, by the way, also Tory traitors to the American revolution, whose spiritual ancestors should have been taken out in 1783. The British enemy negotiated the treacherous Treaty of Paris that ended the war. In it they demanded that there be no reprisals against the rich traitors who remained in America.
I think we should just confiscate their assets; everything over 5 mil. And then tax them on income.
Great idea! And I underestimated the trillions to be gained by this just tax/confiscation of ill gotten gains of the ruling class parasites. They are, by the way, also Tory traitors to the American revolution, whose spiritual ancestors should have been taken out in 1783. The British enemy negotiated the treacherous Treaty of Paris that ended the war but demanded that there be no reprisals against the rich traitors, who remained in America.
Ehh, you're partly right and partly wrong.
this math is wrong
Yeah, there's more today than $11T after the first $5M of the top 1%. In 2004:
"There's $10.94 trillion in the net worth of 1% [0.999%] of the population that's in excess of their first $5 million each. 34.3% of $48.262 trillion in wealth in America owned by top 1.000% is $16.555T; the next 9% own 36.9% that amounts to $17.809T.”
http://www.levyinstitute.org/pubs/wp_502.pdf
http://www.levyinstitute.org/pubs/wp_589.pdf
Excerpt from: How Does That Work? https://www.createspace.com/3852916
Existential Blues
[Removed]
That's not what the stats say.
I know it's not what the stats say; I also know that we have a long history of grossly underestimating healthcare costs (there was a recent Tines (?) article on this. But I think it's also possible to do your own rough estimate.
The working class receives less health care in conservative states.
I can roughly estimate that these states treat their working class family in a red headed step-child kinda way.
The working class receives virtually no healthcare in southern states; I agree. And this is precisely the reason I have lived most of my life in the northeast - traditionally we have enjoyed greater employment/ benefit opportunity.
The poor have medical care - it's called medicaid.
Unless they don't qualify, of course. If you're not a minority, and not a woman with children, and have no major medical issues, it's extremely difficult to get Medicaid. Those I know with it have had to fight tooth-and-nail to get it. And always only after getting a lawyer.
Most people on medicaid are NOT minority!
I never fucking said they were! Goddamn, V, did they have a class in your high school that un-taught reading comprehension? I SAID if you're not a minority, if you're not a woman with child, and if you have no medical problems, IT"S DIFFICULT and you're probably gonna need a LAWYER. Is that any clearer, or am I going to have to break out the Crayons again and draw you a picture?
Being a minority has nothing to with it. Being poor is the determining factor and no one needs to get a lawyer. Most poor people in America are white and most using medicaid are not minority.
So why would you mention "if your not a minority..... it is difficult".?
What does minority have to do with it.?
Is it easier if you've been made to use the back door?
LOL
I'll try again, although I don't really know why I bother. I guess I'm having too good a time tonight fucking with you. Do you know where I got the comment "if you're not a minority, not a woman with children, and don't have a major medical issue, it's extremely difficult?"
It was told to me, more than once, when I went to the Division of Family Services to apply.
And you're full of shit if you think you don't need a lawyer. Everyone I know on it needed one, without exception. They will deny you coverage repeatedly.
By the way, I'm not on Medicaid. They said I don't qualify, although I'm poor.
I don't believe a word you've said.
Yes, I know. I refer to this as the Medicaid gap. And I don't think Obamacare sufficiently addresses this given the high cost of insurance.
Losses on Wall Street; overpriced doctors - the cost of medical education, a fee-for-services system, and a tort system that requires legal staff - and the illegal immigration that drives up the cost of hospital stays. Politicians refuse to address any of these.
Maybe it's because "healthcare has been taken advantage of by the people". How many people do you know who go to the doctor because of a "stuffed nose" or want to get a "headache drug"?
Those "million trips to the emergency room and doctors offices" add up and as a result everyone ends up paying.
Who gets all the welfare dollars in the end? And don't forget, the poor all drive Hummers to their appointments. More welfare for used car salesmen, who all retire and become Tea Party congressmen, who talk about the evils of welfare but in the end assure that the cash keeps flowing into their accounts.
Wake up! You've been conned by the cons.
are you suggesting people should not seek preventative healthcare or treatment for ailments?
I would very much suggest that, yea. Free care as preventive has been touted by the Left as a cost saver. But truthfully there is no reason to waste resources treating and testing healthy individuals. Treating healthy people, pampering every little insecurity, will quickly over tax the system. And on the other end, people who actually need care will be limited and denied.
a must read for anyone who thinks healthcare and insurance are synonymous.
http://thebillfold.com/2012/06/how-to-get-health-care-while-uninsured/
i think Rep Grayson said it best. "The republican healthcare plan is if you get sick, Die quickly."
Obamacare will eventually drive the private insurance industry out of business in , at most, a decade. Then you people will have your single payer.
That is the plan isn't it?
Yep. Has been from the get go.
VT, MT & some other states are looking at asking for a waiver to implement a public option.
That appears to be the path to the end of private health insurance
By paying for it - and in 2014 that's whats going to happen - everyone, including you, will have to pay for your healthcare.
Someone stated to me a while ago that using your health insurance because you have the flu and need some cheap meds is like filing a home owners insurance claim because your gutters are cleaned.
I think there is a valid underlying point there. The fact that insurance is used as a blanket for everything cannot be good. I mean, it takes a doctor 10 minutes to diagnose most stuff. Ya, lots of background training, but its still just 10 minutes.
Its either got to go in the direction of removing the gov 100% from all it, and let it go back to how it was in the old days, or go100% universal.
This fascist nonsense of teetering in the middle is literally one of the leading causes of our current economic problems.
How apathetic does a nation have to be to hire people to write policy, and those people then give themselves incredible care but make us all fight with each other on how we can get just somewhat decent care? Hmmm.....
1/3rd of eligible voters stayed home. That is how apathetic.
Protest all pols for the public option. We can do it at the state level.
A majority of obama votes came from the illegals and there was evidence of that in Nevada
No undocumented immigrants voted! They avoid all authority. Pres Obama won 75% of the hispanic vote because the republican party has been taken over by racist right wing wacko, religious fundamental cases.
So that's how it goes when you denigrate an entire people they vote against you.
LOL
Name a few Rep that are racist!!!! Here is a few left wing nut jobs that are racist (Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson, Obama) and one deceased one Martin King
I disagree!. The decent people you mentioned are great soldiers in support of the 99%. None are racist, in fact they have fought against racism.
You are absolutely wrong, You have it entirely backwards.
No surprise there.
Obama has divided the Nation and Sharpton and Jackson are both whack jobs
Republican leaders have divided the nation with their hatred of minorities, immigrants, LGBT people, Social Security/Medicare/ACA, College aid.
That is why we are divided. Republican hatred.
Are a hateful republican too?
I am an independent, cant you tell that??
You are independent of thought.
As in you don't go there.
I disagree.
You sound like a hateful republican to me.
You forgot about the entire FLAKESnews staff, Limbaugh, Drudge and so many wannabes.
Fox is fair and balanced. Plus they have some of the hottest women around
Not at all fair, nor balanced, and as for the women?
The left has PETA, and they beat FLAKESnews hands down.
So if your are judging veracity on looks alone, you should be a vegan by now.
http://acidcow.com/girls/9337-sexy-peta-girls-24-pics.html
Very funny
I knew I should have been a photographer rather than a robot tech :-)
Here's a whole bunch of them in Florida.
http://wonkette.com/456682/insane-anonymous-internet-racist-turns-out-to-be-florida-gop-politician
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/07/03/florida-voter-purge-racist-moveon-spanish-ad_n_1646022.html
https://www.gatorcountry.com/swampgas/showthread.php?t=235032
Here's some in Ohio too.
http://www.allvoices.com/contributed-news/12814048-ohio-republican-admits-voter-suppression-aimed-at-african-americans
So you see, it's very true.
Well said. nicely supported. We cannot convince him. He is too far gone.
And you've only scratched the surface and there are always under the radar repub racists.
The Wonkette, huff post is not a reliable source
Here's a youtube, they are always true.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ngetOkbtH0
Plus one from the Tampa Times.
http://www.tampabay.com/blogs/the-buzz-florida-politics/content/former-fla-gop-chair-jim-greer-many-within-gop-have-racist-views
Try no insurance for 90 % of the needs, just provide insured care for catastrophic events. This approach will drive down cost and promote healthier life styles.