Forum Post: A Nice Article Talking About The Early Failure Of Occupy General Assemblies
Posted 2 months ago on March 7, 2013, 10:18 a.m. EST by RogerDonavan
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Article: http://creativetimereports.org/author/not-an-alternative/
Hi,
I'm an anarchist who has been with Occupy since its inception. Justine Tunney recommended an article on her twitter account - https://twitter.com/JustineTunney - that I think we should all read. Her piece on stopping consensus - http://occupywallst.org/article/occupiers-stop-using-consensus/ - was based on it.
I feel David Graeber's response was a quite harsh. http://occupywallst.org/article/david-graeber-some-remarks-consensus/
I met David and Justine at the early stages of Occupy and they are both very intelligent anarchists. However, in this particular case, I must agree with Justine. The general assemblies hurt Occupy more than they helped.
I think we need to support Justine on this one. She took Graeber's response to heart. I don't think he should have printed her name since she wrote her original article anonymously. It was a cheap stab in the back.
Justine, on behalf of many anarchists here in Detroit, we support you! Keep up the good work.
Roger
We met during the first week of Occupy. I was the anarchist from Detroit who helped with placing posters.
Thank you <3
You have my support.
I can't claim to know anarchy. I support all political statements including anarchy... I won't stab people in the back. I won't participate in the rough politics we know as democrats & republicans.
Even county politics are dirty.
Problem: politics makes us dumb since controlling info is a strategy. Propaganda is all about making us dumb.
The US Constitution doesn't have checks & balances against PR, or propaganda.
probably neither does Australia or the UK.... or Europe.
I would expect we would agree on some things, disagree on others, nice to see somebody dropping by. The forum has potential far beyond its use.
My brief time at the Phoenix assembly quickly reveled the weakness of 100% consensus. One long time supporter refused to support an otherwise widely supported bank protest, (in concert with a NY led effort), until other long time supporters could return from a absence of a few days. It seemed wrong on so many levels.
The article makes excellent, important points that I (Not at day 1er, maybe day 12er) can corroborate. Process fatigue, fetishness, was a big reason I and many occupy supporters stayed away from the meetings.
Addressing the issues that birthed Occupy should obviously be our 1st priority. And the message of occupy has grown despite the process issues. That is our unique strength, people all over unfamiliar with the process problems have embraced shared goals and flourished.
Our resounding success is measured by the many growing efforts who attach the name 'occupy' and pursue occupy stated goals. Our lasting affect is even beyond 'occupy', we have shown the way forward by standing up to power and NOT submitting. Innumerable like minded groups have watched and learned, have been empowered and encouraged.
It has been barely 1 1/2 years, we ARE growing despite the process problems the article indicates. We ought to resolve the process problems but I am confident the movement to fight the powers the be is so powerful, that the process problems cannot slow our growth.
Can I get consensus on that?
I wouldnt lump the entire GA process into the consensus problems. In a lot of ways, the GA's were the most significant aspect of occupy. Providing a platform for the people, finally.
Consensus was a mess, but so was everything else. Lots of first time organizers trying to get it all figured out, and other older ones trying to remain horizontal, all while keeping to a "100% inclusive" outlook.
Thats a damn near impossible situation.
But after talking with many people, it has become clear that all the occupy GA's and camps were probably the best launchpad for further creating that anyone could have ever hoped for. Dealing with those frustrations was a good thing, in the long run.
If we could all go back and do it again, certainly I personally would have done things a bit different.
My biggest regret was not realizing what a special thing it was. It felt like that was going to go on forever. Like there was no way this incredible rush of energy will do anything BUT go forward.
Knowing how things turned out now, many wish they had pushed a bit harder, given it a bit more, I know I do.
Consensus was a bitch, but any type of governing model would have been tough. 100% inclusive, and 100% horizontal= lots of headaches.
Put aside the process fetishness.
The most significant aspect about occupy is the stand against power, corruption, inequity, injustice, and the verbalizing of those problems.
The most important success is the encouragement of people and groups to speak up, the empowering of people/groups to organize (with whatever process they choose), and push many issues to the forefront, and create momentum for progress.
Ga's, consensus, process, was obviously problematic, probably a failure but in the end that failure was inconsequential, because the issues we stand for are being discussed by millions of people and we are witnessing a new birth of dissent that WILL change the world.
So argue for the process if you must. Occupy, our efforts, & like minded groups continue to grow and fight, and succeed.
Can I get consensus on that?
You can make a stand against power. And if you win, then what? Thats where GA's come in.
Everyone wants to yell "This has to change"...but if they got their chance to finally do, what would they do? There has to be a process.
"the encouragement of people and groups to speak up, the empowering of people/groups to organize (with whatever process they choose), and push many issues to the forefront, and create momentum for progress." --- All of that came directly from the GA. The planning, the organizing, and the discussion. Occupying space and then creating a platform to activate, instead of everyone just casually talking and bitching about it.
Numbers and organization. Occupying space and GAs. Organize, plan, lead into action, then discuss the positives and negatives of what just happened. Not complicated, yet very hard to pull off.
"all of that came from the GA's" What a laugh. This fight has been goin on for a loooooong time. Occupy has come along at the right time. If the ga's were so great they would have been duplicated over and over instead of being shunned and abandoned.
What has been embraced by millions of people and dozens of groups is the issues occupy voices, and the renewed activism of protest, petitions, for progressive solutions.
Ga's need to get their act together if they want to contribute to future progress.
But like most people who support occupy, we don't think about the ga's or the process, or how much consensus. We care about jobs, income equity, prosecution of wall street crimes, ending foreclosures, college access, debt abolishment.
Process fetishness is so tired and unimportant to the movement.
They were duplicated in every single city in America you clown. Try not to embarrass the site anymore. You have absolutely no clue what you are talking about and it shows.
"But like most people who support occupy, we don't think about the ga's or the process, or how much consensus. We care about jobs, income equity, prosecution of wall street crimes, ending foreclosures, college access, debt abolishment."
You are one dumb son of a bitch. What do you think leads to movement on that shit? People like you parking your ass on a keyboard for months on end?
Then I guess there is no problem with "the process", No debate, no need for change. NOT!!!
You put to much importance on the fuckin beauracracy, To much concern for the process!
Process fetishness is old and tired. issues are what matters.
The Ga's need to get their act together if they want to contribute to future progress.
"embarrass the site"???? Whaaaaat? So I should worry about the "process" and the site.?
THE ISSUES!!!!! You vain, egotistical, misguided little bureaucrat.
You don't even keep track of what's going on in your own towns occupy.
Your full of shit.
The issues remain issues until people organize past just talking about them...you should know that by now.
Go organize an action, or something, and then report how you did it with, um... no organizing?
Mocking someone who says organizing is the key, kind of explains it all.
Der der der....
You'RE full of it.
I like organizing. Organizing good. The point is what you suggest is an impediment. Your focus is myopic, and leaves out the issues.
You are suffering from a process fetish. 'sok there are support groups for you now. In fact they are being 'organized' as we speak.
You get to vote too!
Everyone knows what the issues are. Theyve been talked to death.
Its time to actually do something about them.
Its time for organizing and action. Not more talking.
I agree. That's why I support the action I see being taken by occupy and dozens of other like minded groups.
Some are focused on the process fetish and just grind down into frustration and inaction.
The Ga's need to get their act together if they want to contribute to future progress.
We are taking action on the issues. Every day. You should pay more attention to my posts I list many every single day. You might've missed it if you were in a meeting.
LOL, But you don't even do THAT do you? You only divide and criticize don't you nabob.? Admit it. You goal IS inaction.
Basically Jart is hated on her own forum. You must have noticed how there haven't been any responses, at all, to your pro Justine Tunney post? She's both feared and hated. Search for 'removed' and 'shadow ban' and 'banned'. That's her heavy hand of censorship.
She wants this forum to reflect her agenda only -- the Wicked Witch of the West and her Flying Monkey Nazi Mods. You should learn not to take everyone at face value.
I hope you see this before the Grym Bytch deletes it.
I don't know you, but I've been here for a bit, and I for one am very grateful that someone takes the time to make the forum possible.
Once a forum is coded, its pretty much run on cruise control. That being said, if you were really grateful, you would get with the program and realize what this thing is about.
'get with the program" are we in the marines now?
Jart is a gem -
she raked me over the coals once - I stepped barely over a line and we disagreed - SO WHAT!
There is so much BS here and lies and vulgarity and simple pure nastiness.
Some of US need to grow up.
We need to co-operate and build - not attack and accuse each other
You are absolutely wrong about how forum contributors feel about Jart. Obviously you don't speak for anyone but yourself.
My experience is that most of us like her fine, or have no opinion. Even some who have been punished express a positive opinion of her.
Very few actually express dislike. Most appreciate Jarts work creating the forum regardless of any difference of opinions.
And only one or 2 have resorted to the childish personal attacks against her like you.
So try again.