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Forum Post: A NEW PERSPECTIVE ON the OCCUPY MOVEMENT and the American Public: Here's how Occupy can grow and win. . .

Posted 1 year ago on Jan. 6, 2013, 11:46 a.m. EST by therising (6643)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

Polls from major news outlets during the fall of 2011 showed that 40-50% of Americans supported Occupy Wall Street. A silent majority already feels the way we do. The trick isn't to convince them. The trick is to do whatever we can to make them feel comfortable saying things out loud.

Once we the 99% discover that we have more in common than we have separating us, we will be able to make decisions from a position of unified strength rather than demands from a position of divided weakness. This is powerful and a real nonviolent threat to the power structure, hence the tanks in Tiannamen and the riot police violently evicting peaceful citizens from parks and public spaces in the U.S.. Hence the pepper spray and the massive propaganda.

But how do we grow the movement and embolden more people to speak up? I think we need to get strategic and better understand who we are and who our audience is:

Speaking in very simple terms, it appears to me that Occupy supporters tend to fall into 2 different categories when it comes to their approach to today's challenges:

  1. Reform / restore the system and the rule of law by unseating the corporatists who have hijacked our republic 

  2. Form a new system since the old one is so prone to corruption and so infested with it currently

Three important notes that may highlight a way FORWARD:

a)  There is some overlap between the two approaches above.  For example, the NYCGA's supporters would seem to fall into category 2, but the NYCGA supports the elimination of corporate personhood.  That overlap would seem to present some real potential for unification.  

b)  Many in category 1 are focused on things like eliminating corporation personhood, overturning Citizens United, campaign finance reform and things of this type: http://occupywallst.org/forum/we-could-do-this-the-easy-way-or-the-hard-way/ . Eventually those in category 1 may see more of these as useful, not because they are a comprehensive solution but because they ameliorate the suffering of real people on the ground AND they actually buy time and pave the way for the more fundamental and comprehensive solutions preferred by "group 2". If you're all about fundamental shift, then you recognize that it will only happen when people unite and see the seriousness of today's challenges.  Group 2 folks benefit when those in group 1 shout the news of the present dysfunction far and wide.  Dismissing group 1 folks or even "regular Americans" for not getting it or not being engaged enough is actually counterproductive.  A "yes. . . and" approach is much more likely to achieve the group 2 objectives than a "yes. . . but" approach.  The choir isn't going to get this job done.  

c)  Those whose thinking falls into group 1 might do well to realize that theirs are interim solutions that are a bridge rather than a final destination.  There is a need for fundamental change as prescribed by group 2, but this does not diminish the importance of group 1 goals. 

The thinking of the general public in U.S., tends to fall into one of these 5 categories when it comes to our current major challenges:

V - Occupy supporters and participants

W - People who are NOT involved in Occupy but are active and working on all sorts of things that fit right in with Occupy.  They might be pushing for civil rights, environmental regulation, tolerance, economic justice, etc.  Or they're helping the homeless, working in a rape crisis center or doing performance art.  They might be buddhist monks, christian ministers or devout muslims.  They might be musicians, doctors, home makers, poor, well off, elderly or young, but they share a desire to help others and / or bring joy, openness and fairness.  Either in their spare time or in their job, they are directly or indirectly helping the cause.  I don't think we occupy supporters have reached out to them enough with solutions and a positive vision of where those solutions might lead.

X - People who SEE DYSFUNCTION BUT DRAW WRONG CONCLUSIONS. These folks don't see any hope or solutions so they're just INACTIVE & holed up.  Category X Americans might be progressives shouting at the TV while watching MSNBC or they might be right wing Glen Beck watchers who react to their fear by prepping food, water and ammo.  Or maybe they are among the Ron Paul crowd who see the dysfunction and draw the conclusion that withdrawing from others and the world is their only choice.  In any case, they've given up hope and are doing nothing to change things in any meaningful way because they FEEL POWERLESS.  They're just bitching and fearful.  IMAGINE if they realized their power. . .  I think Occupy supporters and participants (group 1 and 2) need to realize that this "X group" is a HUGE swath of America and their discontentment could be channeled into productive action if we help them realize that the source of their problems isn't each other but something else entirely. 

Y - People who are BUSY with their jobs, their family, their art or just trying to survive.  They know things are screwed up but that haven't had or taken the time to understand what's really wrong much less how to fix it.  Occupy supporters would do well to pay more attention to offering solutions and a positive vision of where those solutions might lead.  Going beyond just describing all the problems and moving towards action steps and where they'll take us is what will capture the attention of this group. 

Z - People who are ASLEEP - consuming mindlessly and falling prey to propaganda.  Many of them are awakening every day thanks to the efforts of people spreading the word that there's another way.

To achieve our objectives, we're going to have to gather a LOT more support.  Here are some things to check out that might help us engage more people within groups W, X, Y and Z:

  • ARTICLE & short video of interview with someone who knows it can happen:  http://sue-adams.hubpages.com/hub/iceland-shows-how-to-solve-economic-crisis

  • Superb TED speech that sums it up:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b6rAgHcuYtE

  • One of our most powerful weapons in this effort:  http://occupywallst.org/forum/speaking-up-one-of-our-most-powerful-weapons-say-i/

  • Book that helps us figure out how to sustain our own energy for the long haul in this struggle:  http://books.google.com/books/about/How_can_I_help.html?id=FelGAAAAMAAJ

  • http://occupywallst.org/forum/we-could-do-this-the-easy-way-or-the-hard-way/

  • To help see how activists can connect with would-be activists and the general population, be sure to check out award winning documentaries Why We Fight, Inside Job, The Corporation and Manufacturing Consent.

  • AMAZING 4 minute TED speech: http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/en/marcin_jakubowski.html Now anyone can start a farm or construction company at low cost.

"We can provide a great life for the entire population of the earth, as soon as we end the rule of the ultra-greedy 1% parasites, and begin to spread peace and not war."(jph).  

"The clear path to ending the corporate-state is to stop working FOR it. Remove yourself from the systems that oppress you and your children and then their children. Do not give support to institutions that no longer (if they ever did) work for you and your community. Build alternatives; create new systems of commons, sharing, and working together. Competition only works when there is limited supply, the limitations are illusion, lies,. made up to keep us marching around the chairs, waiting for the music to stop, scrambling Over each other to not be that last one. There is ABUNDANCE on this planet and in this universe, more than enough for ALL LIFE to flourish. We need only stop supporting the 1% that created the imbalance, and now perpetuates fear, and the lies of scarcity, and the ever threatening "other". We are One People!  Search; permaculture, slowmoney, relocalize, degrowth, etc.   The revolution begins when you make the changes, in your own life, that shift your energy from supporting the old ways, the old systems, the corrupted corporate hegemony, & embrace life affirming, positive growth, of interconnected communities, living simply and within our means. Not taking from, abroad, from distant farmers, from future generations, as the corporatism of the past lead us to do. The currently dominate system is a dead-end & will inevitably fail, badly. This IS a possible path, it only requires that you choose it. Start growing food, and sharing it with your extended family and community. Find ways to work for yourself & your community (voluntary cooperation), that cut out the taxes that are used to prop up the system that is stealing from our mothers,. and destroying our planet, spreading war & hatred. It is a system that has had itstime. They push fear, fear that the big-box stores will stop supplying cheap crap from china. is that so awful? Once we realize that we can work together in even small pockets & provide for our ACTUAL needs, in ways that are life affirming, and community strengthening,. at that point the 1%'s greed/debt &perpetual interest system will finally die." (jph)

CHECK OUT THESE SEARCHES & LINKS:

  • google permaculture, relocalize, slow money & degrowth

  • google "alternative systems of exchange", "non-debt based monetary system", or just "monetary system" 

  • And check out these:

http://www.postcarbon.org/

http://prosperouswaydown.com/ 

http://www.growthbusters.org/ 

http://degrowthpedia.org/

Finally, think about these 2 statements from quantumystique:  "people have to see it works. they won't buy a thing if they can't see that it works. i believe all the other change we want too see will emanate from it. if you can feed and house people then you can get people to emotionally invest in the good things we want as a society. once people are emotionally invested. . . there is nothing you can't do."

"The whole trick is to establish these concepts into a cohesive vision for not just tomorrow but today & put the principals into use so they can see that they work. . . so that when the system finally starts to collapse we are standing there with the viable alternative already in use."

138 Comments

138 Comments


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[-] 6 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

It's time for the people to unite and rise. We have the power to do so if we take the steps listed here.

[-] 4 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

Accentuate & Cultivate Outrage !!! Resist The Quiescence And Apathy !! Expose, Explain, Educate and Engage ! In this regard and further to your excellent forum-post, please also consider Matt Taibbi who is second to none in exposing Wall Street's venality, larceny and criminality :

Only through education, agitation and organisation can we hope to apply the much needed pressure from below for the necessary changes towards a better, more equitable future for all.

per ardua ad astra ...

[-] 4 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

Awesome links. Matt Taibbi nails it over and over again. Man, those corporate folks must just squint with venom when he relentlessly exposes their schemes. And yet, of course, his words are a bridge and not an endpoint as you know so well. Years ago, I felt better when I saw something like this in print. I assumed "ah, well, there it is. It's out in the open. It can't stand any longer.". Man was I ever wrong, :). Now, I realize that, of course, there is no "they" who will take care of it. Only we. Only we.

Thanks so much for all you do on this forum to spread sound knowledge and wisdom to so many. You have no idea how far your links reach out from here as people forward them far and wide. They are fuel for the fire in the belly, a fire that burns long and strong, a fire that is lighting up this world. As more and more of us catch the fire and take corresponding action, we will continue to build a virtuous cycle. There's no stopping us now. I can feel it in my bones. Thanks so much for all your inspiration and information.

[-] 4 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

My Advice to the Occupy Wall Street Protesters : Hit Bankers Where It Hurts,

by Matt Taibbi

I've been down to "Occupy Wall Street" twice now, and I love it. The protests building at Liberty Square and spreading over Lower Manhattan are a great thing, the logical answer to the Tea Party and a long-overdue middle finger to the financial elite. The protesters picked the right target and, through their refusal to disband after just one day, the right tactic, showing the public at large that the movement against Wall Street has stamina, resolve and growing popular appeal.

But ... there's a but. And for me this is a deeply personal thing, because this issue of how to combat Wall Street corruption has consumed my life for years now, and it's hard for me not to see where Occupy Wall Street could be better and more dangerous. I'm guessing, for instance, that the banks were secretly thrilled in the early going of the protests, sure they'd won round one of the messaging war.

Why? Because after a decade of unparalleled thievery and corruption, with tens of millions entering the ranks of the hungry thanks to artificially inflated commodity prices, and millions more displaced from their homes by corruption in the mortgage markets, the headline from the first week of protests against the financial-services sector was an old cop macing a quartet of college girls.

That, to me, speaks volumes about the primary challenge of opposing the 50-headed hydra of Wall Street corruption, which is that it's extremely difficult to explain the crimes of the modern financial elite in a simple visual. The essence of this particular sort of oligarchic power is its complexity and day-to-day invisibility: Its worst crimes, from bribery and insider trading and market manipulation, to backroom dominance of government and the usurping of the regulatory structure from within, simply can't be seen by the public or put on TV. There just isn't going to be an iconic "Running Girl" photo with Goldman Sachs, Citigroup or Bank of America – just 62 million Americans with zero or negative net worth, scratching their heads and wondering where the hell all their money went and why their votes seem to count less and less each and every year.

No matter what, I'll be supporting Occupy Wall Street. And I think the movement's basic strategy – to build numbers and stay in the fight, rather than tying itself to any particular set of principles – makes a lot of sense early on. But the time is rapidly approaching when the movement is going to have to offer concrete solutions to the problems posed by Wall Street. To do that, it will need a short but powerful list of demands. There are thousands one could make, but I suggest focusing on five :

  1. Break up the monopolies. The so-called "Too Big to Fail" financial companies – now sometimes called by the more accurate term "Systemically Dangerous Institutions" – are a direct threat to national security. They are above the law and above market consequence, making them more dangerous and unaccountable than a thousand mafias combined. There are about 20 such firms in America, and they need to be dismantled; a good start would be to repeal the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act and mandate the separation of insurance companies, investment banks and commercial banks.

  2. Pay for your own bailouts. A tax of 0.1 percent on all trades of stocks and bonds and a 0.01 percent tax on all trades of derivatives would generate enough revenue to pay us back for the bailouts, and still have plenty left over to fight the deficits the banks claim to be so worried about. It would also deter the endless chase for instant profits through computerized insider-trading schemes like High Frequency Trading, and force Wall Street to go back to the job it's supposed to be doing, i.e., making sober investments in job-creating businesses and watching them grow.

  3. No public money for private lobbying. A company that receives a public bailout should not be allowed to use the taxpayer's own money to lobby against him. You can either suck on the public teat or influence the next presidential race, but you can't do both. Butt out for once and let the people choose the next president and Congress.

  4. Tax hedge-fund gamblers. For starters, we need an immediate repeal of the preposterous and indefensible carried-interest tax break, which allows hedge-fund titans like Stevie Cohen and John Paulson to pay taxes of only 15 percent on their billions in gambling income, while ordinary Americans pay twice that for teaching kids and putting out fires. I defy any politician to stand up and defend that loophole during an election year.

  5. Change the way bankers get paid. We need new laws preventing Wall Street executives from getting bonuses upfront for deals that might blow up in all of our faces later. It should be: You make a deal today, you get company stock you can redeem two or three years from now. That forces everyone to be invested in his own company's long-term health – no more Joe Cassanos pocketing multimillion-dollar bonuses for destroying the AIGs of the world.

To quote the immortal political philosopher Matt Damon from Rounders, "The key to No Limit poker is to put a man to a decision for all his chips." The only reason the Lloyd Blankfeins and Jamie Dimons of the world survive is that they're never forced, by the media or anyone else, to put all their cards on the table. If Occupy Wall Street can do that – if it can speak to the millions of people the banks have driven into foreclosure and joblessness – it has a chance to build a massive grassroots movement. All it has to do is light a match in the right place, and the overwhelming public support for real reform – not later, but right now – will be there in an instant.

~

[Item copied verbatim under 'Fair Use' from : http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2011/10/13-4?print & © 2011 Rolling Stone]

~

I append the above even though it is dated as it is {13th Oct.'11} because it is still highly relevant and fits here in this thread so well. Thanx 'tr' for your encouragement, grace and solidarity.

The 99% struggle continues worldwide ; together we are stronger, onwards and upwards !!! "None but 'we' can free our minds" !! "Fuel for the fire in the belly" - I like that metaphorical mash-up a lot !

fiat justitia ruat caelum ...

[-] 3 points by OTP (-203) from Tampa, FL 1 year ago

Sounds good.

[-] 1 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

Great piece and great points. Matt is so damn good.

[-] 3 points by Ache4Change (3158) 1 year ago

'While the Occupy Movement has been a focus of much of the news lately with accusations by the FBI as being a “potential threat, ” the movement is still striving to “create real change from the bottom up.” The Occupy Movement, which initially started from a call to “Occupy Wall Street” in 2011, is a “people-powered movement” organized in over 100 cities in the U.S. to regain the power from the wealthy and fight back against the system.' - from - http://www.nationofchange.org/going-efforts-occupy-1358007353 & thanks for your excellent and important post. Never Give Up! Go Occupy! Solidarity.

[-] 2 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

Thanks so much for the links and the encouragement!

[-] 3 points by Ache4Change (3158) 1 year ago

Solidartity @ OWS & to you & I have passed the links below from your great post to others. I really appreciate your good work :)

http://www.postcarbon.org/

http://prosperouswaydown.com/

http://www.growthbusters.org/

http://degrowthpedia.org/

To quote you - 'Once we the 99% discover that we have more in common than we have separating us, we will be able to make decisions from a position of unified strength rather than demands from a position of divided weakness. This is powerful and a real nonviolent threat to the power structure, hence the tanks in Tiannamen and the riot police violently evicting peaceful citizens from parks and public spaces in the U.S.. Hence the pepper spray and the massive propaganda.'

Act Local, Think Global! Never Give Up Occupying!

[-] 3 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

You might really enjoy this fantastic TED speech by James Kunstler: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q1ZeXnmDZMQ&feature=youtube_gdata_player

It captures our dysfunction and solutions to that dysfunction from a new angle :)

[-] 3 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

Thanks for the encouragement and all your great contributions to the dialogue. I've learned a lot from your words.

[-] 5 points by TrevorMnemonic (5827) 1 year ago

Americans have been brainwashed by corporate rule into thinking capitalism is the only way to be.

Capitalist enterprise has gone throughout history to make other economies fail to then say "see we're it."

That is a huge problem. We have the country under constant manipulation of the 2 factions of the corporate state, of which people have in a way sworn allegiance to.

The way people believe in the corrupt US government reminds me of talking with someone involved in a cult. And many of those who acknowledge the corruption continue to support it and make excuses for their support, usually done in the name of fear.

I believe jhirsch had a recent and awesome post on this subject.

[-] 1 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

It does kind of feel that way. I agree. Any thoughts on how to get through to those who are victims of this mindset?

[-] 3 points by TrevorMnemonic (5827) 1 year ago

talk to a lot of people about these issues all the time. There have been several people at work I've talked with a bunch of times about the levels of corruption, and weeks or months later they're talking about how the elite and CEO's use different policies and manipulation to crush the middle class. And citing specifc examples, many of which I had not talked about with them. We have to make these facts about corruption common knowledge.

Currently common knowledge is acceptance of the current system.

this can take time. but I got about 30 to 60 years left before I die.

We also need more levels of civil disobedience. I admit I need to do that more. But it's difficult when no one you know wants to protest with you. I couldn't even get my democrat friends to come out and protest Deb Fischer with me. I had to do it solo.

I've gotten friends and family to come out to other protests, but when they know it's just going to be like 5 people, they don't want to come because it singles them out more. That and often work schedules often differ.

[-] 2 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

You're really getting down to the important level that we all need to pay more attention to. You are talking about what YOU can do as an individual and what WE can do in groups instead of talking about what "THEY" ought to do. That is so important. And you've been coming back to that more and more. Please keep that up because we all need reminding including me. There is no they. There is only we. And we can do this Trevor, as individuals and in groups. We can do this. We are doing this. The revolution which your actions and discussion point to is happening right now -- despite that fact being ignored intentionally by the 7 corporations that own all world mainstream media. People are speaking up in casual conversation and they're engaging in nonviolent direct action. THAT is the revolution. And the more it progresses, the more the 1% behind that wizard of oz curtain will lose their power to scare us into doing things and the more they will lose their power to discredit the real patriots. We're going to fucking win this Trevor. There is a virtuous cycle at wok here. The people are rising. You can feel it in your bones.

[-] 2 points by TrevorMnemonic (5827) 1 year ago

It has to start somewhere

It has to start sometime

  • What better place than here? What better time than now?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H0kJLW2EwMg

I grew up listening to Rage Against the Machine. I never really liked trendy music because the lyrics are generally meaningless.

It's sad how corporations have stolen so many artists from the world.

Art with a message is a powerful influence.

[-] 1 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

So true. Rage against the machine, Bob Marley and many others are so damn inspiring :)

[-] 1 points by peacehurricane (293) 1 year ago

Yes the music does it I dance walking every chance and love it It does start here and the time is now always Green light 3x's to you all:)

[-] 1 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

I believe it was Nietzsche who said, "Music is closest to truth."

[-] 1 points by peacehurricane (293) 1 year ago

Everyone can dance and it should be a requirement, a challenge for some.The bigger that challenge the more necessity. I know not when this was said though would guess some time back, today it may have become it...

[-] 1 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

Interesting

[-] -2 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

Aaaaah. Once again it's those damn democrats as always!

So it was just you and the massive numbers of republicans protesting.

[-] 3 points by TrevorMnemonic (5827) 1 year ago

Stop trolling me.

I openly do not support the democratic party. You pointing this out means nothing.

Fuck the 2 factions of the corporate state.

Also stop trolling me. We talked about this yesterday.

[-] -2 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

Ooops you answered.

I ain't trolling you. I saw you single out dems, and leave out repubs & I commented.

The duoploy sucks, I support ending it and electing 3rd parties. You seem to attacks Dems only. I point it out.

[-] 3 points by TrevorMnemonic (5827) 1 year ago

It was a protest against Deb Fischer.

Again you have no logic in your weird twist rhetoric.

You can keep supporting the warmongers backed by Goldman Sachs. I'm going LEFT.

And stop trolling me.

You ever notice how I don't comment on your posts?

When you reply to my comments I get messages about it on the forum.

Please leave me alone.

[-] -2 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

You don't have to respond, And you have no authority to dictate whether I comment on your partisan comments.

I am against ALL war! I support protecting innocents from brutal dictators (ours and otherwise).

I agitate against the right wing war mongers who perpetuate fear to maintain the endless 'war on terror'. I protest ALL pols (D&R) against all military action and rights violations, And I never forget that republican/conservative policy is at the center of ALL these problems.

[-] 3 points by TrevorMnemonic (5827) 1 year ago

Then if you won't respond to please

I'm just going to say

FUCK OFF

every time. Your refusal to criticize those funded by Goldman Sachs is what is partisan. You are the party hack of the forum.

Fuck you and fuck the 2 factions of the corporate state.

You only criticize one party and your posts show it. You think Obama supports OWS. Even though it was under his presidency where we saw the brutal crackdowns as he was SILENT.

Point out that I don't support Obama? Like I give a fuck. I openly denounce the guy in many forum posts.

You push propaganda and establishment bullshit all the time. Didn't you accuse me of supporting Gaddafi for opposing the war against Libya? That early on you tried to play off like the US played no role in and said but that was NATO.

You are a party hack.

[-] -1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

For me it is your silence regarding the right wing criminals at the center of all our problems that I criticize.

I believe the dems are more of a disappointment to me. Repubs proudly push the anti 99% agenda. Some dems always cave in to support those anti 99% conservative policies.

Pres Obama is indeed a profound disappointment in regards to the progressive change I want to see. But Pres Obama is NOT a progressive, so I ain't surprised.

No I don't support Khadaffy, I'm sure I didn't say you support him, most likely I asked if you did.

In the end though, I honestly believe you are a right wing plant because of your silence on right wing guilt for the all the problems we face. I mean you did push that right wing lobbying groups memo and pretend it was non partisan right?

You tried to blame someone else but never provided an explanation after claiming you would talk to the source (Dick).

So be against theDems or anything you want. You are free to.

Aren't I free to respond?

And doesn't your losing your cool, and resorting to obscene personal attacks and organizing a concerted attack on me just prove your wrong, & I'm right?

You can't handle the truth? Or a challenge to your blatant right wing leanings.? C'mon grow up.

[-] 3 points by TrevorMnemonic (5827) 1 year ago

I have not been silent.

Fuck off.

Look at me opposing Chuck Hagel, the republican, as Bensdad is cheering for him on the forum.

Again fuck off.

You ask Glenn Beck accusatory style questions.

Fuck off.

Again this is your response to me talking about protesting Deb Fischer, a right wing warmonger.

So again I will say Fuck off.

[-] -2 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

Hagel is an enemy of the neocon fear mongers & their agenda of endless 'war on terror', If you attack him you are standing with the right wing war mongers.

Hagel is against Iran sanctions & supports immediate Afghan withdrawal, Things you have claimed to support!.

Hagels party affiliation is irrelevant his stated positions on these current important defense issues is what matters.

And most of all that he has the right enemies (neocon war mongers, hello) is a good measure.

I think your party colors might be showing here.

[-] 3 points by TrevorMnemonic (5827) 1 year ago

I'm going to try both the please and the fuck off.

here it is

Please fuck off

Maybe next you'll suggest to support Ron Paul because he is anti-war

Ha your rhetoric is hilarious. Chuck Hagel voted for Iraq war. fuck that guy. His voting record is abysmal.

[-] -1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

I never fuck off. And when morons curse me out I know I'm gettin close to the bone and dig my teeth deeper.

Aaaaaaaaaaah ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!

[-] 2 points by TrevorMnemonic (5827) 1 year ago

No you're getting told to fuck off because you stalk people's comments and provide no insight to anything.

Instead you push establishment ideas, like when you push Chuck Hagel, instead of supporting real liberals.

You're going around the forum today propagating an anti-union asshole republican that wants to limit unionized labor under federal contracts. That is another reason why I am telling you to fuck off.

[Deleted]

[-] 2 points by TrevorMnemonic (5827) 1 year ago

Fuck off much?

[-] -2 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

I don't like any of our pols, I will push ALL pols to demilitarize, Hagel must be good that way or you and your neocon paymasters wouldn't have your panties in a bunch.

Anti union? Your full of shit. This ain't secretary of Labor you lyin piece of shit.

LOL

[-] 3 points by TrevorMnemonic (5827) 1 year ago

stop stalking my comments you delusional old man

I don't go around the forum stalking your posts and your comments like a delusional old man. I'd appreciate it if you kept your delusions to yourself.

[-] -2 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

I don't care about party affiliation. I care about the current defense issues that this nominee will confront.

Certainly I would support green, Dem, or other party people if they had the right position on defense issues.

Hagels vote for the war is meaningless to me. That was a decade ago after 9/11 when 70% of the country supported war in Iraq after being lied to about Iraq.

He has shown his anti war posture enough since then, coming out against Iraq, & Afghan. The establishment (L & R) are attacking Hagel so I think you are mistaken about that.

Most importantly which you have been silent on is that the neocon fear mongers are against Hagel because he threatens their endless 'war on terror' agenda.

Ron Paul is old & done. Sorry. Move on.

[-] 2 points by TrevorMnemonic (5827) 1 year ago

Please

JUST fuck off already. Leave me alone. Go comment stalk someone else.

[-] -2 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

But your still gonna stand with the neocon war mongers against Hagel?

LOL. Figures.

Transparent partisan. Not anti war just anti dem.

[-] 3 points by TrevorMnemonic (5827) 1 year ago

Go ahead and support a republican that voted for the Iraq war.

You do know Chuck Hagel's voting record is terrible right?

You know all those reasons you list for hating Ron Paul.... yeah Chuck Hagel pretty much fits all of those too. And Ron Paul opposes the wars. He even tried to prevent it from happening while Chuck Hagel voted for the war. But for Chuck you're willing to make an excuse because the establishment is pushing it.

Your hypocrisy knows no bounds.

Why not support a democrat for the position? Or maybe someone from a socialist group or the green party or maybe an anti-war movement? Maybe one that didn't vote for the Iraq war like Chuck hagel did. .

Also

Please fuck off

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (28150) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

Chuck Hagel Charles Timothy "Chuck" Hagel is an American politician who was a United States Senator from Nebraska from 1997 to 2009. Wikipedia Born: October 4, 1946 (age 66), North Platte Previous office: Senator (NE) 1997 – 2009 Spouse: Lilibet Hagel Party: Republican Party Books: America: Our Next Chapter LP, More Education: University of Nebraska at Omaha, Brown College

[-] 1 points by SickAndTired1 (25) 1 year ago

Transparent partisan. Lol that I the pot calling the kettle black. The sad could be said of you.

[-] 1 points by SickAndTired1 (25) 1 year ago

All you rhetoric is just trolling behavior to gain a rise out of someone. I wish there was a way on the forum to mute or ignore people's posts. Because you my friend would be muted by many. I have read threads about you and there is public sentiment to support this mutual feeling.

[-] 1 points by SickAndTired1 (25) 1 year ago

You seemed ok with President Obamas drone attacks. Maybe you are just selective with who you take issue with.

[-] 2 points by SickAndTired1 (25) 1 year ago

VQkag2 you re so trolling Trevor and you know it. Anyone reading the forum can clearly see that. Stop trying to pretend you aren't. And you seem to be a Dem cheerleader Pom Pom Fanatic who was very aggressive on your support of Obama during the elections. I hope others can see through your ruse for what you really are.

[-] 4 points by TrevorMnemonic (5827) 1 year ago

From a marketing stand point

How do we make protests and civil disobedience more fun to attract people?

I always enjoy protests because of the good cause and meeting great new people.

Is there a way to go "more commercial" without going "commercial" ?

I think a lot more people, who normally would have nothing to do with a protest, could be attracted if FUN was considered a factor. Just an idea.

Just off the top of my head. Live music? Something? Thoughts anyone?

[-] 3 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

I like the way you think -- we have to meet people where they are. . .

[-] -1 points by beautifulworld (20832) 1 year ago

Well, for one thing, if people weren't afraid the police would come with pepper spray and handcuffs I think we'd attract a lot more people. Bloomberg and his cohort nationwide really succeeded there.

But, making it fun and stressing absolute non-violence would be great places to start.

[-] 3 points by TrevorMnemonic (5827) 1 year ago

The violent crackdown kept many people in doors.

it was scary to be in America watching that on the news and online. I seemed to be the only one among my friends and family who viewed the crackdown on OWS as pure fascism. A very scary thing.

The worst was watching people brush it off and say things like "that's what happens"

[-] 1 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

Yeah, i completely agree. Amazing that many Americans brushed it off when it was these very protesters, patriots out there in the streets, who were fighting for the rights of all Americans. But we are goong to win the propaganda war. I am now convinced we have them by the balls thanks to combo of dirext nonviolent action and internet (see this link: http://occupywallst.org/forum/we-dont-see-the-power-we-have-in-our-hands-to-tran/. They can't arrest us all :)

[-] -1 points by beautifulworld (20832) 1 year ago

I actually had friends tell me not to go to Zuccotti Park because it was too dangerous. But, as you say, they did not see the fascism in what Bloomberg was doing, and that is the truly frightening thing.

[-] 4 points by TrevorMnemonic (5827) 1 year ago

Harsh crackdowns in oakland and more

and even non-OWS protests like this one - Anaheim 2012 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxEH921ST0c

[-] 3 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

Below, problemsolver suggested protesting in a field away from police. My response was that "Protesters are exercising their first ammendment rights. It's the police and those directing them (politicians controlled by 1% / corporations) that are causing the problem. Not protesters. King explained the use of active non-violent resistance as follows in his “Letter from Birmingham Jail”: "Nonviolent direct action seeks to create such a crisis and foster such a tension that a community which has constantly refused to negotiate is forced to confront the issue. It seeks to so dramatize the issue that it can no longer be ignored. My citing the creation of tension as part of the work of the nonviolent-resister may sound rather shocking. But I must confess that I am not afraid of the word "tension." I have earnestly opposed violent tension, but there is a type of constructive, nonviolent tension which is necessary for growth. . . The purpose of our direct-action program is to create a situation so crisis-packed that it will inevitably open the door to negotiation.” That's why no protest in middle of nowhere."

[-] 3 points by TrevorMnemonic (5827) 1 year ago

problem solver has also accused me of supporting dictators because I opposed the Iraq war and oppose the war in Afghanistan. He is merely here to distract.

He also trolled me for 2 days trying to say I called Al Qaeda just "grumpy old men."

You can put fact out there, but problemmaker will stick with what he's got even if he has no point.

[-] 3 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

Not sure if he's paid or unpaid but either way he is pretty impotent.

[-] -1 points by beautifulworld (20832) 1 year ago

I remember that video. Just pathetic. If you think about it, Occupy would have been huge had the police not scared everyone away. Americans think they are free but it is so far from the truth. All around the world people peacefully protest in huge numbers. Try to do that here and you get pepper-sprayed, handcuffed and hit with a club.

How can we forget the kids at UC Davis? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6AdDLhPwpp4

Shamar Thomas summed things up nicely: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WmEHcOc0Sys

[-] 4 points by TrevorMnemonic (5827) 1 year ago

8 million views on just the one video. That video has been posted on so many different sites. I am glad to see it has been viewed that many times on just one.

[-] 0 points by beautifulworld (20832) 1 year ago

Wow. I didn't notice that. That says a lot! Perhaps we should be more hopeful, and you know, if we can organize events to be more fun, as you say, and keep spreading the information, maybe we could garner the big numbers we need to get things moving again.

[-] 2 points by TrevorMnemonic (5827) 1 year ago

I remember he made the news too. His voice was loud! And it was heard around the world.

[Deleted]

[-] 2 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

Protesters are exercising their first ammendment rights. It's the police and those directing them (politicians controlled by 1% / corporations) that are causing the problem. Not protesters.

King explained the use of active non-violent resistance as follows in his “Letter from Birmingham Jail”:

"Nonviolent direct action seeks to create such a crisis and foster such a tension that a community which has constantly refused to negotiate is forced to confront the issue. It seeks to so dramatize the issue that it can no longer be ignored. My citing the creation of tension as part of the work of the nonviolent-resister may sound rather shocking. But I must confess that I am not afraid of the word "tension." I have earnestly opposed violent tension, but there is a type of constructive, nonviolent tension which is necessary for growth. . . The purpose of our direct-action program is to create a situation so crisis-packed that it will inevitably open the door to negotiation.”

That's why no protest in middle of nowhere.

[-] 4 points by TrevorMnemonic (5827) 1 year ago

listen to the fascists sing

"just following orders"

[-] 2 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

It sure is frightening that they completely misunderstood where the violence is coming from. This is a tragic misunderstanding born of intentional propaganda and we need to dedicate ourselves to strategically helping our message rise above their noise machine. We need to get clever and stay nonviolent.

[-] 3 points by beautifulworld (20832) 1 year ago

Non-violence is the key if we want to grow our numbers because as far as the issues go, we have the numbers. It is getting people out on the street and engaged that is the challenge.

[-] 3 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

I think the trick to that is simply speaking up ourselves to get others to feel comfortable speaking out. Then, getting into the streets feels a little more natural because we're warmed up :)

[-] 1 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

Below, problemsolver suggested protesting in a field away from police. My response was that "Protesters are exercising their first ammendment rights. It's the police and those directing them (politicians controlled by 1% / corporations) that are causing the problem. Not protesters. King explained the use of active non-violent resistance as follows in his “Letter from Birmingham Jail”: "Nonviolent direct action seeks to create such a crisis and foster such a tension that a community which has constantly refused to negotiate is forced to confront the issue. It seeks to so dramatize the issue that it can no longer be ignored. My citing the creation of tension as part of the work of the nonviolent-resister may sound rather shocking. But I must confess that I am not afraid of the word "tension." I have earnestly opposed violent tension, but there is a type of constructive, nonviolent tension which is necessary for growth. . . The purpose of our direct-action program is to create a situation so crisis-packed that it will inevitably open the door to negotiation.” That's why no protest in middle of nowhere."

[-] -1 points by beautifulworld (20832) 1 year ago

Excellent response, therising, and exactly what I was thinking. We want to make it fun and less threatening but it has to have meaning. I defer to MLK, Jr. Great quote!!!

[-] 2 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

We are surfing on the leading edge of history when we speak up -- whether it's informally with one other person or as part of an organized nonviolent action -- and nothing is more fun than that feeling of surfing. :)

[-] 1 points by beautifulworld (20832) 1 year ago

"King explained the use of active non-violent resistance as follows in his “Letter from Birmingham Jail”: "Nonviolent direct action seeks to create such a crisis and foster such a tension that a community which has constantly refused to negotiate is forced to confront the issue. It seeks to so dramatize the issue that it can no longer be ignored. My citing the creation of tension as part of the work of the nonviolent-resister may>"sound rather shocking. But I must confess that I am not afraid of the word "tension." I have earnestly opposed violent tension, but there is a type of constructive, nonviolent tension which is necessary for growth. . . The purpose of our direct-action program is to create a situation so crisis-packed that it will inevitably open the door to negotiation.” That's why no protest in middle of nowhere."

Since I was voted down for no reason, I thought I'd give a bump to MLK Jr.'s very wise words.

[-] 3 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

Those words of Martin L King are so wise and timely. He and his compatriots gave us a roadmap.

[-] 1 points by beautifulworld (20832) 1 year ago

So true. We should heed them and remember him.

[-] 1 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

Absolutely

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (28150) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

Skiing downhill - 2' of fresh unbroken powder - sunshine blue sky - next best thing to flying.

[-] 1 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

Nice :-)

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (28150) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

Old memory.

[-] 1 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

That blue sky and white powder plus mountain air are intoxicating. Ahhhhhh

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (28150) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

Truly a great memory - March back around 72 - Colorado - residents bundled up - me and my brothers walking around in t-shirts.

[-] 1 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

Very cool

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (28150) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

Perhaps a vision ( a pale experience ) of what heaven could contain.

These things can be experienced today and feed the spirit for the kind of world in which we want to live.

Inspire us as to how to plan for the future and the needed steps to take starting today.


[-] 2 points by therising (6719) 13 hours ago

Heaven ↥twinkle ↧stinkle permalink

[-] 2 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

Right on :)

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (28150) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

Minimum 1' fresh powder fell every night - daytime 30 degrees and sunshine.

[-] 2 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

Heaven

[-] 4 points by FawkesNews (1290) 1 year ago

You are quite a prolific entity here and I for one appreciate your opinions and the information you provide.

[-] 3 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

Thanks for your encouragement and all the information you have provided here as well. Together we are greater than the sum of our parts. It's time to redouble our efforts because the 1% sure as hell are redoubling theirs.

[-] 4 points by FawkesNews (1290) 1 year ago

Together we grow in numbers while the 1% decrease in numbers. They consolidate, we expand.

"It is not once nor twice but times without number that the same ideas make their appearance in the world." Aristotle

May I add one of my own...."A good idea cares not from which mouth it emanates, though it prefers the many."

[-] 1 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

All beautifully put. "There is nothing so powerful as an idea whose time has come."

[-] 3 points by beautifulworld (20832) 1 year ago

Good ideas that still hold true today from therising.

[-] 1 points by therising (6643) 9 months ago

Hi beautifulworld . Hope you're doing well.

[-] 1 points by beautifulworld (20832) 9 months ago

Hi, therising. Nice to see you back. I'm doing great, thanks. Hope you are well.

[-] 3 points by Amanita76 (88) from New Haven, CT 1 year ago

Very well versed perspective. However there is still the categorical divide you pointed out in Occupy. I find myself in category 1 seeing as how if you form a new system out of a system that is already corrupt, you get a new system that is likely to be inherently corrupt. Or at least one that appears legitimate on the surface but is still corrupt underneath it all.

It is simple, when the corporatists have no power they'll have no influence, and when they have no influence they'll have no power. (Keep in mind that this is not a very divisive issue and would garner wide support from the public at large.)

At Occupy New Haven, the Issues and Proposals group realized this fact and took action. The separation of corporation and state was the most logical way forward. Upon approval by the GA, we went to work drafting a resolution to propose an amendment to the Constitution in order to abolish corporate personhood. This resolution was then presented to the local Board of Alderman for a vote. Of the 30 alderman, all were in favor of the resolution. Article here if interested: http://www.nhregister.com/articles/2012/06/05/news/new_haven/doc4fcd683c3d5a2731229165.txt

(Other initiatives on the state level have been met with similar success: http://reclaimdemocracy.org/colorado-montana-initiatives-2012/)

Of course the resolution was symbolic but it was a small step to actually amending the constitution. In order to amend the constitution, 2/3 of the states or 2/3 of both houses need to initiate a constitutional convention and from there decide to support the proposed amendment. Congress certainly will not bring this to a vote anytime soon. Therefore it is up to the states and more importantly the people, in a true grassroots effort, to call for action. Let it be known that we didnt see this as the end of our cause and purpose, only as the way to meaningful and long lasting change on all other issues.

Contact your representatives

[-] 3 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

Thanks very much. That's great info and a perfect example of how this can work. The people have the power as soon as the people realize they have more in common than they have dividing them. We are the 99%. For every one of them, there are 99 of us. Once we unite, their scare tactics will no longer give them any power.

[-] 3 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

This is an extraordinary 4 minute TED speech.  .

http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/en/marcin_jakubowski.html

Everything you need to start a civilization is now available on one DVD.  Now "anyone" can start a farm or construction company.

[-] 3 points by OTP (-203) from Tampa, FL 1 year ago

Incredible. Freakin. Post.

Growing V from around 1% of the population to perhaps 5% could be all that is needed.

[-] 1 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

Exactly. Not because the 5% can do it on their own but because the extra 4% would also be reaching out individually and collectively to the rest of the groups mentioned. Yes, the virtuous cycle has begun and the people are rising like waves, again and again, ceaselessly and relentlessly beating at the shore.

[-] 3 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

Once we unite, to use the words of Breyton Breytonbach, true "freedom will rise here like the sun through the morning clouds."

[-] 3 points by FawkesNews (1290) 1 year ago

What an incredible guy. Thanks.

[-] 1 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

Breytonbach said this just before he was sentenced to prison in South Africa for his protest activities, which makes his words all the more poignant. "With confidence, we lay our case before the whole world. Whether we live, or whether we die, freedom will rise here like the sun through the morning clouds.". The genuine confidence of his statement speaks volumes. He, like M L King, Jr., could feel it in his bones.

"The moral arc of the universe bends towards justice.". MLK

"No lie can live forever." - MLK

And then there's this by the Rastafarian poet, Bongo Jerry:

"Sooner or later but mus'

the dam is going to bus'

What force can stop them,

this river of people who know their course?"


And this from Stevie Wonder: You better tell your story fast, 'cause it won't be too long."


"Soomer or later it'll all come down 'cause you can't. . push. . . people around." - unknown jazz musician


Bob Marley - "They would do anything to materialize your ev-er-y wish.".

Bob Market - "We refused to be. . . what you wanted us to be. We are what we are. That's the way it's going to be."

Bob Marley - "There's a natural mystic flowing' through the air. If you listen carefully now you will hear."


"And I am talking about getting ready because it is coming." Because there are those of us and yourselves out there who are dedicated to the proposition that it is going to happen." - CORNEL WEST from Prophetic Thought in Postmodern Times


JAMES BALDWIN from "No Name in the Street": "The representatives of the status quo are sickened and divided, and dread looking into the eyes of their young; while the excluded begin to realize, having endured everything that they CAN endure everything. They do not know the precise shape of their future, but they know that the future belongs to them. They realize this -- paradoxically -- by the failure of moral energy of their oppressors and begin, almost instinctively, to forge a new morality, to create the principles on which a new world will be built."

[-] 3 points by FawkesNews (1290) 1 year ago

Words praising the soul of the people, will forever outweigh the words praising the corrupted and soulless.

Proof unto itself.

[-] 2 points by Middleaged (5140) 1 year ago

Review of Link to Sue Adams Story on Iceland immediately points out how the Democratic Government of Barak Obama covered up the crimes of the Republican Government of George Bush, ... along with crimes of Tim Geithner, Alan Greenspan, Hank Paulson, Eric Holder, and all of Wall Street.

http://sue-adams.hubpages.com/hub/iceland-shows-how-to-solve-economic-crisis

Of course, Greece is the best example of what happens if the State keeps refinancing Loans that have become worthless ...and leads to Austerity for the people as the Government goes into a spiral of cutting federal budgets and cutting social programs....

Since Democrats and Republican will not act to address the corruption and growth of Corporate Military Banking Government ... the Default will be Austerity at some point as the rich and influential decide that poor and infirm don't deserve welfare or social payments.

Warning: If the US dismantles it's Social Safety Net, in the end a strong long lasting recession caused by Austerity in the US will BE Much Worse than Iceland. It will look like Greece if we don't have Social Security, Medicare, unemployment Trust payments, etc.

Question: How can we get 80% Participation in Politics? I have always advocated Nationalization of Media time for Politicians from the local level to National level ... after we outlaw Lobbying, Gift Giving, and Campaign Contributions above $5 per individual US Voter (no soft money, no PACs, no Corporate contibutions)

Nationalized Media time is the primary idea to reach the common man/common voter ... and to turn the tide of education and transparency ... and to dig into exposing myths and untruths told by competitive politicians and competitive corporations... perhaps nationaized media time on tv, cable, and radio is also required therefore for neutral political education by grassroots groups like small farmers, co-ops, mental health issues, medical issues, insurance issues, tax abatements for large corporations to be discussed, corporate welfare for large corporations to be discussed, war and war policies, military contractors, torture, rendition, drones, drone use in pakistan who we were never at war with, going to war without congressional declaration, etc.

[-] 2 points by Middleaged (5140) 1 year ago

Finished the TED Talk: Why We Can't Shop Our Way to a Better Economy: Stacy Mitchell at TEDxDirigo

Very Excellent. Gives me hope that she is like US. She is one of US.

[-] 2 points by Middleaged (5140) 1 year ago

I have to agree that people in #2 that want fundamental change ...should not separate themselves from others that want reform.

Much to digest as I read down the post. If we set aside the fact that the FBI has tradictionally targeted people that want fundamental changes in government ...to look deeper. Seems clear that the Repub/Democrat paradigm is a power structure that prevents national debate. However most of us would like reforms that #1 empower grass roots community groups #2 increase transparency, #3 Increase information and education from both media and politicians #4 FOI Act responsiveness #5 Reduced competition in politics and business that appearently results in holding information back from the people that elect the polticians and buy products.

Sorry off track in above rant... You do a great job of listing US Voters in Items V-Z above. I have to catch up with your links and will take a while.

I would add that Personal Transformation, Personal Growth, or Personal Change ... has been studied. I think people need a compelling reason to "Stop and Look at our Polititians and Current US government & Corporate works". A similar concept is the "SEE" Significant Emotional Event in psychology.

For most US Voters, war has not affected them as soliders or victims in other countries... or even as thrid world contractors killed in our wars, or even as NATO soldiers killed in our wars. Our Volunteer Army combined with our Contractor Support in our military organization has made foreign wars very painless ...even as it has cost trillions in federal budget and transfered federal dollars to our corporations.

Maybe if we voters stop distracting ourselves from our governments works ... we will have SEE type feelings. Maybe each of us needs to hold on to our personal SEE issue to create a groundswell for government reform.

[-] 1 points by Kavatz (464) from Edmonton, AB 1 year ago

Oh how I wish the conglomerate and Departmental Governance were on your mind 24-7 like me! I agree with pretty much all you post. If I could only convince you that it's the one nonviolent resistance-free solution to fixing almost everything we hate, in a short timeframe.

You reminded me of something I heard on Alernative Radio last week. It's something along the lines of not getting anywhere trying to fight the little issues when the root cause (the system) will continue producing more big little issues. I can't agree more, it's a waste of time, resources and sanity.

[-] 1 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

Are you talking about this?: http://occupywallst.org/forum/new-view-why-gun-control-peace-treaties-campaign-f/. Not sure what you're getting at. If only you could convince me of what?

[-] 1 points by Kavatz (464) from Edmonton, AB 1 year ago

No, I personally think it's unfortunate the gun issue is occupying so many people here. If you think about it, we really lose ground like this (not saying it's an unimportant issue).

I've been developing it all in topics ending with this:

Back to Topic References: http://occupywallst.org/forum/conglomerate-and-dgrc-topic-references/

I still have much to do, but I hope what I've done here is useful.

You might focus on the Conglomerate before getting into DG&RC (Departmental Governance & Responsible Capitalism), as that stuff is me being overly idealistic(?).

Do you have time to get into it?

[-] 1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 1 year ago

This is an all inclusive approach....................:)

The real challenge is to re-capture the so called "mainstream" media.

The message was changed by them once they adopted a "controlled" attack on what their owners considered a threat.

[-] 2 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

Our nonviolent response needs to be even more controlled and strategic than there's. We can do this. We have the power:

WE HAVE THE POWER to both USE and circumvent the mainstream medi using direct action and web in tandem:  http://occupywallst.org/forum/we-dont-see-the-power-we-have-in-our-hands-to-tran/ . We can literally get them to report our message while simultaneously getting them to advertise our unvarnished message on alternative media. Check out that link to see how.



The Emperor and his Clothes: HOW ONE PERSON RAISING THEIR VOICE TO SPEAK THE TRUTH CAN MAKE A REAL DIFFERENCE -- the tenor of the times---   http://occupywallst.org/forum/we-have-the-power-to-turn-this-world-around-this-o/

[-] 0 points by peacehurricane (293) 1 year ago

It is all one bird. Right wing-left wing even no wings. The parties should be our right to Party. Democrats/Republicans have no business in the positions these people have been elected to uphold. After election who they represent is all Americans not their party and it is wasting valuable resources dragging citizens thru the mud or into war that should not be happening. Freedom costs very little compared to this display that is truly Unamerican.

[-] 1 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

Well, what should we do about it?

[-] 1 points by peacehurricane (293) 1 year ago

Fighting over which wing is superior or worse suits those who take our good intentions and get us to lock ourselves in cages leaving nothing better to do than peck each other apart. Better is working together to get the f out of here(cage). Alas reaching the door finding it was never locked.,We can know that deep inside we all wish to fly. Now how to deal with reality- We did this, allowing the stupidity to come this far is ours and that will not change We must remove the doors. Flying is as freedom to humanity.

[-] 1 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

You lost me there.

[-] 1 points by bensdad (8977) 1 year ago

In stead of proclaiming truly radical ideas such as direct democracy & getting rid of the fed, we need to concentrate on one issue
that 80% of America already agree on
overturn citizens united & end corporate personhood

faux noose & the Rs spent last year trying to marginalize OWS by painting us a dangerous, radical hippies.

We need to prove we are the 80%!

[-] 1 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

Is it possible I can support this 100% while at the same time supporting nonviolent direction and permaculture shift? Can't we do both?

[-] 2 points by bensdad (8977) 1 year ago

yes!

[-] 1 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

Awesome. Glad you agree. I think if we can move in that direction with a "yes...and" approach instead of a "yes. . . but" approach, we'll gather the support needed for both Occupy group 1 and Occupy group 2 goals (see top of post). I really think such an approach will unstick us and get the ball rolling fast again!

Thank you for all you're doing to expose the power of uniting behind overturning citizens united and ending corporate personhood. If I read correctly, the NYCGA on their website (clickable at top of any page of occupywallst.org) say that they are committed to ending corporate personhood. What an opportunity to unite!!

[-] 1 points by peacehurricane (293) 1 year ago

Prove to who? I am an American citizen and I love this country that is all the proof I or anyone needs in this Free land...

[-] 0 points by bensdad (8977) 1 year ago

sorry if I was a bit "cute"
I was trying to point out that OWS will not succeed as an outside radical group
OWS needs to show our alignment with goals that 80% of America wants
80% want an amendment to end citizens united
OWS, advocating for an "alternate currency" does not promote support for OWS


This is a lesson we must learn if we are to grow
Shouting "we are OWS" gets us nowhere
Shouting "we are you" will win

[-] 0 points by peacehurricane (293) 1 year ago

We are WE.

[-] 1 points by gsw (2690) 1 year ago

Yes. I agree.

Or a constitutional convention.

[-] 1 points by bensdad (8977) 1 year ago

what could a constitutional convention do?
are there any major groups in favor of a convention?
how are delegates selected?
how is voting done IN the convention?
once the convention is started, how can citizens have input?

[-] 1 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

Isn't ALEC pushing for this?

[-] 1 points by bensdad (8977) 1 year ago

ALEC has spent a fortune on an article V convention. They have produced a 39 page shiny paper manual on how legislators can call for and distributed thousands of them to state legislators.
I believe they have more than 2000 state legislators as members.


I have the manual in PDF - I can send it to you via email


Think of what they could do:
end social security & medicare & medicaid
end inheritance tax
end cap gains tax
privatize everything


What do you think?


[-] 2 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

I think we better stop ALEC in its tracks but exposing what they're up to using all forms of nonviolent direct action. I also think we should all speak the truth plainly. "No lie can live forever." - MLK

[-] 2 points by bensdad (8977) 1 year ago

light is the best disinfectant, but 47% of Americans were stupid enough to
listen to the willard/paul lies and still voted for them.
I think one of OWS's "wins" has been exposing ALEC
ALEC has lost many members, but koch has no trouble funding the vampire.

I know this may sound silly, but OWSers should take an anti-ALEC pledge .
to talk about ALEC or write a congressman or newspaper every day.

[-] 2 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

I completely agree. So important because the laws ALEC is getting on the books in states across the country are like a cancer that is eating away at our country. We can cure this particular type of cancer though. . . And remarkably the cure is sunlight. We have the power to shine that bright light on the bad things the corporations in ALEC are doing. Bring on the sunlight. You should do a separate post on this and make it something plain spoken with general audience in mind with some simple links....so it's something someone could copy and paste to a friend who's not deep into this... That's how we spread the word. We need a simple half page doc with a few links to recognizable sources the mainstream public trusts. ALEC is a horrendous organization that has done much harm.

[-] 1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

I agree.

[-] 1 points by beautifulworld (20832) 1 year ago

Wonderful post, therising. You have threaded together and laid out a very good groundwork here and we need to keep thinking along these lines. Thanks for all the hard work you do.

[-] 2 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

Cheers beautifulworld. Thanks for the encouragement.

[-] 1 points by therising (6643) 9 months ago

I would love to see the occupy movement grow steadily. My sense is that it is a certainty that events will arise that stoke the fires of occupy. The question, I think, is what will those who already support occupy do with each of these new bursts of energy. Will we be inclusive and fan the flames to grow the movement? The more we can focus on what we all share in common, the better. There is quite a bit of overlap among the groups described in the main post above. Would love to see us put our energies, at least for now, into achieving those goals that the 99% share in common. I think our strength will grow exponentially if we focus on those key fronts.

[-] 2 points by beautifulworld (20832) 9 months ago

Watershed change takes a long time. Occupy has planted the seeds and the seeds are clearly growing. Continuing to educate and wake up the American people to the fact that although the social contract has been forsaken, it still exists. They have rights and they should fight like hell to get them back.

[-] 1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

A good roadmap

[-] 3 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

Thanks for the encouragement. :)

[-] 2 points by therising (6643) 9 months ago

Inevitably, events will arise that stoke the fires of occupy. The question is, what will those who already support occupy do with those new bursts of energy. If we can be inclusive, we can harness that new energy and grow the movement.

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[-] 0 points by quantumystic (1710) from Memphis, TN 1 year ago

The whole trick is to establish these concepts into a cohesive vision for not just tomorrow but today and a put the principals into use so they can see that they work so that when the system finally starts to collapse we are standing there with the viable alternative already in use.

[-] 1 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

This is it. You're right. This is a whole new perspective on the transition. The revolution really is right now. What you're saying above is so true.

[-] 1 points by bensdad (8977) 1 year ago

From our [ OWS ] point of view there is another way to look at this,
we have been shrinking for a year
we need to gain momentum and support
in addition to pushing "our" issues such as ending corpor ate personhood, imagine what would happen if OWS had an anti-gun day? If we had the money - and OWS buyback gun effort


Showing America that we want what they want,
is the key to getting America to want what we want

[-] 2 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

Excellent point. Excellent point.

[-] 1 points by quantumystic (1710) from Memphis, TN 1 year ago

This is why they had to destroy ows and the encampments. They were a very visible threat as they were a viable representation of an alternative society that was actually a community. You this is why reoccupying the public commons is essential.

[-] 2 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

I agree. The commons, our commons, are under siege. We need to reclaim them.

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[-] 1 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

What do you mean specially by "equal pay"? Are you rearing to the problem of men making more than women?