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Forum Post: A MESSAGE TO THE MILLENNIAL GENERATION & their parents: How frustration & fear can be alchemized into a positive revolution

Posted 1 year ago on Jan. 1, 2013, 6:34 a.m. EST by therising (6643)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

Our economy sucks right now, especially if you're a young person entering the job market. Young people face increasingly limited options and more and more of them are suffering in our "new" economy. The new normal of stagnant wages, widening income disparity, unemployment and underemployment paired with cultural isolation is flat out demoralizing.

This frustration on the part of the millennial generation will likely be one of the strongest forces for change. But what kind of change will that frustration bring?

There's no doubt that the raw energy from frustrated young people will result in a reaction. I just hope it will be a generally positive, deliberate and intelligent reaction rather than knee jerk, reactive one born out of fear. We certainly don't want good people's fear used to steer them into something that works against their own interests and the interest of the community. Too often we take away the wrong lessons from hardship. Out of desperation, we leap in the wrong direction when someone who is deluded (or malicious) "names our pain" inaccurately.

We've seen way too many people hate or fear others (or institutions or systems) - - out of frustration or fear. The Germans had their pain named in the 1930's during economic hardship and they fell into a trap of hating people with whom they shared more commonalities than differences. It is upsetting to see people's fear and hardship exploited. The tea party comes to mind. Probably good people drawing all the wrong conclusions because, in part, of their own weakness and foolishness but also because corporate lackies like Dick Armey exploited their fear and named their pain.

We too often allow people to pick our poison for us: "It's the jews. It's Obama. It's socialism. It's George Bush. It's (fill in the blank)." Too often, when we in the 99% suffer, we lash out at each other instead of the forces that are truly causing our pain. And, sometimes, even when we realize the correct source of the trouble, we lash out in anger or with violence instead of with productive intelligence that will bring the new day we truly desire. I want to see us move towards community, not descend into fear, confusion, infighting and hatred. It is also worth noting that sometimes the source of the trouble lies partially with us and we ignore that and reflexively blame others. We must take responsibility for our own contribution to the problems we suffer from. Once we realize we play a role in them, we will discover we also have the power to play a role in the solution ( http://occupywallst.org/forum/new-view-why-gun-control-peace-treaties-campaign-f/ ).

How can we take the righteous anger and raw energy that comes from hardship and channel it into productive action that will bring us as individuals the happiness we seek instead of taking us further into hardship and pain? How do we channel that raw energy so it can help us see our commonality and build the dynamic community we hunger for. How do we take away the right lessons from this rather than descend into chaos?

In my view, nonviolence is essential and far more powerful than a violent reaction. And I also truly believe that, if we the 99% can realize that we have more in common than we have separating us, we can begin to make decisions from a position of unified strength instead of demands from a position of divided weakness.

Here's to humanity walking that fine line and taking away the right lessons from our hardship and struggle. I don't want us to be fooled into lashing out violently at the 1% which would only further seal our fate. I don't want us to be fooled into lashing out at each other either. How can we, the millions who see that real transformation is possible help guide and lift those who are suffering in order to alchemize all that pain, anger and raw energy in something that benefits individuals and helps build the dynamic community we've wanted for so long?

And to all of us who are not in the MILLENNIAL generation, how will we help steer those younger than us in the right direction? Will we show them not just the ills of the society but solutions as well? And will we also offer them a positive vision for what COULD be if certain actions are taken? After all, if we want to inspire change, we're going to have to inspire PEOPLE, especially young people. I think it's important that we ask ourselves, "Have I only focused on what's wrong with society and failed to give equal attention to solutions and a positive vision of the dynamic community we could build if we engage in positive revolution? Have I only focused on action out in the world and failed to give equal time to the revolution of the mind that is also necessary? ( see post GOOD NEWS http://occupywallst.org/forum/new-view-why-gun-control-peace-treaties-campaign-f/ ).

It's time for humanity to rise out of the darkness of division and fear. It's time to alchemize that raw energy into positive forceful action that brings real transformation. We can build a new community. It's time for us to step the fuck up. If we drift, those with selfish and malicious intent will decide for us.

We need to remember the power of nonviolent tension. This is one of the most important tools available to us. Martin Luther King, Jr. explained the use of active non-violent resistance as follows in his “Letter from Birmingham Jail”: "Nonviolent direct action seeks to create such a crisis and foster such a tension that a community which has constantly refused to negotiate is forced to confront the issue. It seeks to so dramatize the issue that it can no longer be ignored. My citing the creation of tension as part of the work of the nonviolent-resister may sound rather shocking. But I must confess that I am not afraid of the word "tension." I have earnestly opposed violent tension, but there is a type of constructive, nonviolent tension which is necessary for growth. . . The purpose of our direct-action program is to create a situation so crisis-packed that it will inevitably open the door to negotiation.”

We need to make that nonviolent tension our friend.

PS - Remember - If we somehow transformed our economy to make good jobs available to the millennial generation, that would not solve the problem at hand. There are other forces, of course, attempting to steer the millennial generation towards a new consumerism (same old same old wrapped in different packaging). . . http://www.sfgate.com/business/article/Marketing-shift-seen-for-Millennial-generation-2334257.php . That article says millennials are, in general, less rebellious against authority. So how will authority dictate their actions? Will a whole new generation fall into the trap of consumerism and materialism as corporations would like? Who will shape the minds of the next generation of Americans?

224 Comments

224 Comments


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[-] 4 points by stevebol (1269) from Milwaukee, WI 1 year ago

Baby-boomers and Gen-X had many new developments in the tech world at their disposal. I don't see any new developments that are significant for those that are younger. Advances in the digital world are not consistent though digi-tech is marketed that way.

With the price of education going up and the quality going down it must leave many younger people feeling disillusioned. The last thing they need is advice from old-timers like me.

[-] 1 points by elf3 (3102) 1 year ago

and don't forget it's all being CONSOLIDATED into one giant blob of whatever won't strain the margins and will keep the masses entertained. There's no such thing as innovation - it costs too much money, gets bought up and out if it's any good and goes in the pile of blob with the rest of it, or gets stolen and patented or pirated and goes into litigation for the next 30 years. As one example though though Facebook was never that clever,it was neato and a helpful way of connecting - but now they've got their hooks in it don't they ... stripping it down, forcing a profit, sinking their hooks into the "consumer" cause that's all we are to these companies. Violating our trust. Gets worse when you consider things like genetic patents on cancer genes before they begin pimping them out to researchers for a cost. All of this is stifling innovation (unless it's more creative ways to screw the public.) That's what they care about now- forget products that last, forget ingenuity - whatever meets the bare minimum for the highest price. This is the economy we have now.

[-] -1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

The only way to change things quickly is with violence.

Ain't gonna happen. I don't support violence.

TPTB are so immensely powerful we must work hard and recognize that we may get only slow progress.

I do not see things as bad as you do. As far as the horrible 3rd world conditions it is my hope and belief that this great progressive movement will in the end improve their conditions as well.

You don't see that?

[-] 1 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

Great point on tech. Perhaps though we need to simplify on that front and communicate more in person. The occupations showed us the value and power of that :)

[-] 1 points by grapes (3551) 1 year ago

For the younger, the new development is the vastly higher degree of connectedness. It is not technology alone that can and will make the difference. It is also the usage that it was put to. For example, the internet had existed for a few years before it suddenly boosted the productivity of the people using it once enough information became available there. The same is true for social media such as Facebook and Twitter.

It is the social linkage that can trigger a phase change such as those which had occurred in the Arab Spring.

[-] 1 points by elf3 (3102) 1 year ago

it's also the driving force behind derivatives and day trading, no?

[-] 1 points by grapes (3551) 1 year ago

Sort of and not necessarily. Social linkage is why we may not want to torch and burn our entire system. Even the 1% are part of our system, too, but that should not stop us in any way to steer and control our system because we are doing it for the benefit of the 1%, too. Derivatives are similar to aneurysms in our financial blood vessels. There were far too many of them that were largely imaginary or not tied to the real world at all. There were layers on top of layers that intertwined and the art of valuation, though claiming to be a rocket science, is in essence voodoo magic because its inputs are largely subjective probabilities.

All kinds of platforms can support derivatives and day trading, not necessarily the iXxxxx. I would even defend derivatives and day trading as long as they serve valuable economic objectives such as stabilizing investments, apportioning risks to parties which can best shoulder them so as to catalyze economic undertakings, and providing liquidity. What I and the world had problem with is when these went far beyond reality. What the heck are hundreds of trillions of dollars worth of derivatives doing in a world whose GDP per year does not exceed 100 trillion dollars? Gambling with everyone's livelihoods, that is! WE DO NOT NEED THIS!!!

[-] -1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

Yeah the collapse was con job all right, Also a mugging, the 1% wall st corp oligarchs threatened to stop lending whichcreated thec panic/loss of confidence.

But be clear the broader con jobs is defined by the element ofa con job you left out.

CONfidence MEN (the 1% corp oligarchs!) create FALSE confidence.

In any event it is the 1% corp oligarchs who are at the center of the problem.

[-] -1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

Our responsibility now is to stand up, speak up, and identify that the 1% wall st corp oligarchs have bought the peoples govt, rigged the system to benefit themselves and hurt the 99%.

That is out 1st priority.

Change that corrupt system. (money out of politics) take the peoples govt back! Take our wealth back. They didn't work for it. WE DID!!

[-] 1 points by grapes (3551) 1 year ago

Absolutely, we must SEVERE the nexus between our governments and the corporate oligarchs. The oligarchs benefited from the run-up although they were hurt in the run-down, too.

Ultimately, our national wealth must be rebuilt on the foundation of good governance. If that is not done, we can always use our Alexander's sword to "untie" the Gordian knot.

[-] 1 points by OTP (-203) from Tampa, FL 1 year ago

In economies that use money, the people have to have control of their own money.

Leaving it to the oligarchs is economical suicide.

[-] 1 points by grapes (3551) 1 year ago

There can be problem with people having control of their own money, too. They may wantonly "print" money to satisfy all of their wants. If the control is vested in a democratic process as efficient (ugh!) as that in our Congress, it may not be nimble enough.

I still believe that an independent central bank controlling the money is still important for quick emergency response but there should be laws preventing it from overstepping its bounds into the political realm. I see that our U.S. federal reserve had intervened excessively long in time duration in our economy through its monetary/credit policies. The power for long-term interventions in our economy should NEVER be vested in a non-elected body. That is properly the realm of our democratically elected government.

[-] 0 points by OTP (-203) from Tampa, FL 1 year ago

Moving it to the Treasury, and let us vote on the those who serve.

Otherwise, get Jack Lew, the master of CDSs @ Citigroup.

The revolving door of corruption continues.

[-] 1 points by grapes (3551) 1 year ago

Oh, yeah. Citi was notorious in its ventures leading up to the Great Recession. It was despicable in its financial manipulations.

[-] -1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

1% Oligarchs were NOT hurt in the run down. And we can only emerge & correct the mess on a strengthened working/middleclass.

[-] 1 points by grapes (3551) 1 year ago

The idea of the 1% has its problem because "top 1% income" does not define people. After the Great Recession, those belonging to the 1% prior to it might no longer belong to the 1% so they could be hurt badly in the run-down but they were simply replaced by new members of the 1%.

Decades ago, Harvard came up with the concept of homeostasis to describe bodily equilibria. Harvard had since amended that to homeodynamics. 1% is in the same changeable category and class as a concept is bankrupt in a dynamic society (let me remind you that Donald Trump had threatened to declare bankruptcy before).

[-] 0 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

Blah blah blah, homeostais, honeodynamics, homeo don't play'dat. Please, your doubletalk, distractions,do not changethe fact that the lazy, do nothing 1% have rigged thesystem against the 99%.

They have transferred the wealth of the working/middle class and enriched themselves with socialist tax payer bailouts while preventing any "bailouts" and all govt help for the 99%.

You and Haaaaaavard may reject the 1% 99% terminology but it illustrates the current problem in a waty that has resonated with many Americans, pol leaders, and news media.

It has been effective (after only ONE year), and will continue to be. effective

[-] 1 points by grapes (3551) 1 year ago

Yes, rigging the system occurred -- I definitely agree with that.

Transferring the wealth from the working/middle class to 1% also occurred but it is not the bulk of the financial losses from your 401k's, IRA's, pensions, houses, etc. The 1% simply could not have transferred that much wealth that fast to their account balances. The financial losses mostly came from the near-collapse of confidence. The actual transfer of wealth occurred when the big shots got salaries, huge bonuses, and expense accounts often for doing very little and even crashing the companies and the global economy. That was not, is not, and must never be acceptable.

The 1%/99% terminology has its merits as the concept of classes also does but we should never lose track of the fact that they are abstract concepts that are dependent on the scale of the resolution at which we examine societies. Harvard had this change of perspective when the resolution changed due to better monitoring technologies. Apparently static equilibrium on macroscopic scales can actually be dynamic equilibrium on microscopic scales, even chaos or no equilibrium at all.

[-] 0 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

I don't think the 1% vs 99% is all that abstract. It is not perfectly accurate but has been quite effective.

I also think the 401k/pension losses may be in part because of the loss of confidence/panic, but that panic was created by the 1% oligarchs who have benefited from the market recovery.

So they screwed us again.

[-] 1 points by grapes (3551) 1 year ago

Yes, the ones who know how to and can pull a fast one often screw the others. One needs to know that one owns and knows how to use a phaser and use it against those who only have machine guns.

[-] 0 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

Resistance is futile, you 99%'rs will be assimilated.

[-] 1 points by grapes (3551) 1 year ago

Yes, 1% + 99% = 100% = 1. We will become ONE!

[-] 0 points by OTP (-203) from Tampa, FL 1 year ago

Ive known a few people very well who would fall in teh 1% income level. They in no way, shape or form have anything to do with this corrupted system.

WooWhoo!! Im back in positive territory!! haha

[-] 1 points by grapes (3551) 1 year ago

That is correct. Not everyone of the 1% is culpable. Nor is everyone of the 99% innocent. However, by and large, the misdeeds mostly came from the 1% as a group simply because they had the motive and the means to crash the economic system. It is much much harder to make the 99% crash the economic system because coordinated actions amongst them are rare (some still do not get how they have been ripped off).

[-] 1 points by OTP (-203) from Tampa, FL 1 year ago

The vast majority of the 1% as well had nothing to do with this crash.

The people that set up the Bush Ownership Society, after getting a repeal of Glass Steagall, are the ones. Its a very very small group of people that set interest rates, and lending features.

99% of millionaires have absolutely no ability to affect this process at all.

The power structure in this country is very old.

[-] 1 points by grapes (3551) 1 year ago

Yes, I agree. Most millionaires do not even know how to wield the powers that could have effected the crash but surely there are some rather greedy ones amongst them that do and knowingly crashed the world economy, in pursuit of personal gains.

[-] 1 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

Actually we need your advice. What are your thoughts and recommendations for the short and long term?

[-] 1 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

Very cool

[-] 2 points by inclusionman (7064) 1 year ago

We must support our compatriots working hard to bring about change/improvement for the 99%

[-] 1 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

I agree. We need to unify. That way we can begin to realize that we have more in common than we have dividing us. Then we can take nonviolent direct action like this: http://occupywallst.org/forum/we-could-do-this-the-easy-way-or-the-hard-way/

[-] 2 points by inclusionman (7064) 1 year ago

Agreed.

[-] 1 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

Thanks for the link

[-] 1 points by inclusionman (7064) 1 year ago

Welcome

[-] 1 points by redandbluestripedpill (333) 1 year ago

Get the message and agree in democratic fashion on the BASICS.

[-] 2 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

The priorities of people must take precedence over the priorities of corporations.

[-] 1 points by redandbluestripedpill (333) 1 year ago

An accepted absolute? I think so.

Ever since a psychologist pointed out that the job requirements for ceo and other officers of corporations were sociopathic.

Those who understand how to use Article V constitutionally can actively work against that with human agreements supporting evolution.

[-] 1 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 1 year ago

That's what this is all about.

~Odin~

[-] 1 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

I agree. We have to be vigilant.

[-] 1 points by engineer4 (352) 1 year ago

I am happy that you took the non-violent approach to the challenges we have. But you missed one important point that is required to be successful in a non-violent action: PATIENCE. A lot of it. It will take time, and quite a few election cycles. Everyone should watch "Eye On The Prize" to learn about what is required of oneself to reach a goal. And be ready to take some pain along the way. There is only one goal (the "prize" in this case) that should be focused on here and nothing else: money out of politics! Reach that and we win back control of governement, everything else follows that, not before. Otherwise, division will continue and nothing will change. A comment on consumerism and materialism: we need to always have demand for something or there will be no jobs for any generation. And frustration? Everyone should deal with a little frustration, it toughens one up. Life is not supposed to be easy, so people should quit whining about it. Do something about it instead. I have never seen the complainer get anywhere, only the ones that get up and get out there.

[-] 1 points by grapes (3551) 1 year ago

Yes, indeed. We slipped into the cesspool of injustice because the moneyed interests grabbled our governments.

As long as the financial turmoils were confined to the private sector, we did not have systemic disaster (e.g., many hedge funds had died in the Great Recession but did the taxpayers cry?). In our complacency, we let the blind-trust folks forcefully breach the sheath of sanity and create the failed's that morphed into the too-big-to-fail's.

[-] 1 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

Well, let's all get up and get out there then! :)

[-] 1 points by redandbluestripedpill (333) 1 year ago

Great thread! Our society needs more assembly related to traditional politics before the infiltration of government to unify separate from the managed politics now taking hold.

[-] 2 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

We need to unite and win. We can do this!

[-] 1 points by redandbluestripedpill (333) 1 year ago

Unite, that's the hard part. Everytime something functional comes along the cognitive infiltration comes along and distracts confuses or confounds. This is free speech abridged, again.

[-] 1 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

So how do we get past that cognitive infiltration?

[-] 1 points by redandbluestripedpill (333) 1 year ago

When we share an understanding of a fundament that will create change, the infiltrators have to separate.

[-] 2 points by gsw (2737) 1 year ago

How do we get to the point of sharing vision and common understanding?

We need a films that dramatize these issues, in fiction and nonfiction, and that show ways forward to solutions that do improve the world.

People like reality tv, series. Maybe reality Ows. Anyone want to be famous? Just put it on you tube? And full length cinema.

[-] 2 points by redandbluestripedpill (333) 1 year ago

The ART 5 movement has a solid strategy called preparatory amendment. In order to see ART 5 done constitutionally preparation must be made. The first amendment sees that free speech is unabridged.

I saw one post where a conservative against ART 5 was challenged to find a parent that would not support a society which always allowed speech that could protect their child's life. They totally failed to even try .

[Deleted]

[-] 2 points by redandbluestripedpill (333) 1 year ago

Oops, I edited it. The conservatives wer challenged and completely failed. Women too.

This is what happens when people cannot get the truth, they have no idea of how serious the situation is or how it got that way so people with every reason to agree, cannot even be accountable to their position let alone unify.

[-] 1 points by GirlFriday (17435) 1 year ago

So, you signed this, then? It's all about the people.

http://occupywallst.org/forum/east-coast-ports-strike-looms-feb-6-deadline/

[Deleted]

[-] 1 points by redandbluestripedpill (333) 1 year ago

Humans need information for survival. Are you trying to say they don't?

[-] -1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

No. Why would you ask that.?

I AM saying that this sentence is not coherent. And I'm begging you to explain.

"find a parent that would not support a society which always allowed speech that could protect their child's life"

We need info, I agree. Please restate this thought so that I can understand the info I assume you are trying to impart.

Thanks

[-] 0 points by redandbluestripedpill (333) 1 year ago

"find a parent that would FAIL to support a society which always allowed speech that could protect their child's life"

[-] 0 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

What speech abridgment are you referring to?

[-] 0 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

I support https://movetoamend.org/ regarding the overturning of Citizens united.

I support all the efforts to fight republican efforts to suppress dem votes. I support mandatory voting for all. I support repealing the electoral college and http://www.nationalpopularvote.com/.

I support free speech but I don't know what you are talkin about with your reference.

[-] 1 points by redandbluestripedpill (333) 1 year ago

Sorry you can't notice children's lives and understanding that protects them. What a terrible affliction, our species survival is threatened by it, logically so.

[-] 0 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

So this is not the Art 5 effort you are talkin about? And you don't think this one is constitutional?

They sound like they are making some progress.

Are you?

[-] 1 points by redandbluestripedpill (333) 1 year ago

Doesn't read constitutional. What is your position on preparatory amendment?

1)End the abridging of free speech

Do you think that the people should widely see truths shared with all the benefits to democracy inherent?

2)Campaign finance reform

Do you think reversing things like citizens united is a good thing?

3)Secure the vote

How about the vote manipulation issue with the diebold software and vote counting? Would you like to see that corrected?

Just where do you stand on the above issues, aside from being against ART 5 of the US Constitution?

[-] 0 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago
[-] 1 points by redandbluestripedpill (333) 1 year ago

No, this appears unconstitutional.

"The Compact for America guarantees that the process will exclude the input of the other states and restricts the delegates to the Balanced Budget Amendment discussion under threat of pre-written instructions to state Attorney Generals."

ARTICLE V

The Congress, whenever two thirds of both houses shall deem it necessary, shall propose amendments to this Constitution, or, on the application of the legislatures of two thirds of the several states, shall call a convention for proposing amendments, which, in either case, shall be valid to all intents and purposes, as part of this Constitution, when ratified by the legislatures of three fourths of the several states, or by conventions in three fourths thereof, as the one or the other mode of ratification may be proposed by the Congress; provided that no amendment which may be made prior to the year one thousand eight hundred and eight shall in any manner affect the first and fourth clauses in the ninth section of the first article; and that no state, without its consent, shall be deprived of its equal suffrage in the Senate.

[-] -1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

You said:

"So you can find no parent that will relinquish that meaning because I say so. Okay".

I have made made no effort "to find" any parent because you request was not written in a way I understood.

1)." Ending the abridging of free speech, of the preparatory amendments does what future generations need done now."

I do not understand this sentence.

[-] 1 points by redandbluestripedpill (333) 1 year ago

Pretending you don't understand serves the infiltration of government.

There are 3 preparatory amendments. 1)End the abridging of free speech 2)Campaign finance reform 3)Secure the vote.

Maybe if I add punctuation you can read and understand.

1)." Ending the abridging of free speech, of the preparatory amendments; does what future generations need done now."

[-] -1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

Well I'm NOT afraid of Art 5. So does that mean I'm constitutional? What makes me unconstitutional?

[-] 1 points by redandbluestripedpill (333) 1 year ago

If you are not afraid of using ART 5 with proper preparation, then you can take constitutional action to secure the rights and freedoms of the people. Agreement upon the need of human society for communication which enables their unity and support for the prime principles of the republic is the first step.

[-] -1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

You sound like an idiot when you say I am unconstitutional, y'know that right?

How am I or any person "unconstitutional"?

[-] 1 points by redandbluestripedpill (333) 1 year ago

You would not be afraid of ART 5 if you were constitutional my friend.

[-] -1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

Great, Thanks.

Good luck in all your good efforts!

[-] 1 points by redandbluestripedpill (333) 1 year ago

You show your unconstitutionality, again.

[-] -1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

"a society which always allowed speech that could protect their child's life"

What are you referring to.? What society does not allow speech that could protect children.?

[-] 1 points by redandbluestripedpill (333) 1 year ago

The speech must be shared and UNDERSTOOD in order to provide protection.

Ummmmm, recall the dumbing down exposed by the Reese commission?

This society has already allowed that. Been there done that. Did you see the blocking of utube video responding to the gulf oil spill with solution. The prime contributor of strategy for ART 5 Christopher Brown posting here last year, directed me to a site where this type censorship stopped citizens from protecting children's futures by protecting the environment.

http://occupywallst.org/forum/this-forum-is-pointless-at-this-point/#comment-451078

I followed some links found in searching and found this.

http://algoxy.com/oxygen/take_the_money_now.html

That really woke me up. OMG! the whole gulf disaster was under wto rules NOT the constitution, and they all PRETENDED is was under US law. WTF!

Here's a page about the utube censorship with a link to the video censored. They didn't delete it, they wouldn't allow it to be posted as a response video.

http://algoxy.com/oxygen/youtube.error.try.again.html

[Deleted]

[-] 1 points by redandbluestripedpill (333) 1 year ago

So you can find no parent that will relinquish that meaning because I say so. Okay.

1). Ending the abridging of free speech, of the preparatory amendments does what future generations need done now.

[Deleted]

[-] 1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 1 year ago

LOL.............Ghost writers for trolls!!!

The strange part is, they even be able to get paid..........:(

http://www.lipstickalley.com/f153/paid-right-wing-bloggers-posting-liberal-websites-440072/

[-] 1 points by redandbluestripedpill (333) 1 year ago

That's what people say when they know they will not be able to find a parent that will knowingly relinquish their child's right to a society where info needed for survival is shared and understood.

Revision of the first amendment appears or is vital by the study I've made from links at this forum.

[-] 1 points by redandbluestripedpill (333) 1 year ago

Yes, and when freedom of speech have their greater meaning again, there will be real support for this.

"We need a films that dramatize these issues, in fiction and nonfiction, and that show ways forward to solutions that do improve the world. "

[-] 0 points by Cuwen (43) from Clarinda, IA 1 year ago

Actually, this isn't a bad idea! With social media out there and especially YouTube, we could get the message out there and get millions of people involved! The government needs to change and we need to make them change by using our collective voice.

But we'd all have to form big groups around the country, film it, and then put it together as one big video and post it on YouTube.

[-] 1 points by gsw (2737) 1 year ago

"The Battle for Seattle" movie. That dramatized some of the issues and made it visual, easier to comprehend. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YmQzw-O8eRY&feature=youtube_gdata_player

When their are characters to empathize with, might help some to get message.

I have a feeling there exists a huge knowledge gap for much of the populace. Serial drama could be interesting. If Honey BooBoo is interesting, why wouldnt a reality show, focusing on various occupy sites and action, beliefs, characters, and struggles, like exposing this, and such like the systemic repression of occupy sites. Tell our side. http://vimeo.com/23258726

[-] -1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

Sounds interesting. Potentially damaging if not controlled/edited properly.

I'd like to see something completely unrelated to the stereotypes pushed by MSM. In fact we should keep in mind that growth/expansion of the movement should be the 1st goal of any "programming".

With that in mind the setting might be most valuable if it were in suburban "comfortable" areas of the country where so many feel they can't be hurt too much by the economic inequities we fight.

Comfortable people (suburbanites) are the most difficult demographic to reach. Once reached though it could be a watershed moment.

Support would grow exponentially.

[-] 1 points by grapes (3551) 1 year ago

It is quite a contrast that trillions of dollars were created to rescue the financial monsters but our government could not allow the 60 billion dollars to fund disaster relief from Sandy's effects. I am sure that a number of the (previously) comfortable victims of Sandy have started to realize how rigged our government truly is.

[-] -1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

I would hope. These are large communities of republican voters no less! And it has been their republican house members who stabbed them in the back.

but aside from party politics, comfortable suburbanites should be our target. We must convince/alert them to the risk to their future.

[-] 1 points by grapes (3551) 1 year ago

Comfortable suburbanites may not truly understand how precarious their position is. As Sandy's aftermath showed, many suburbanites turned out to be just one flood away from financial ruin.

Hopefully, some suburbanites will start to understand how some families afflicted by serious illnesses feel. Some were just one serious illness from financial ruin, nullifying an entire life's hard work and savings. There is a reason for our country's unity, to do what we cannot do individually. Recovery from droughts and floods certainly fall into that category.

[-] -1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

Agreed, Making the comfortable non supporters of Occupy realize that, an illness, a flood, a job loss, etc can hurt them (or fam, & freinds) profoundly, should be a high priority.

In addition we ought to make an effort to inform that same critical demographic that their children will have overwhelming challenges because of the economic inequity we've allowed to crush the middle class.

If successful, that effort will yield new important supporters in this good fight.

[-] 2 points by grapes (3551) 1 year ago

Any country that had big economic inequity never fared well for long. Actually, more comfortable non-supporters of Occupy probably have their sense of unease already but perhaps are too busy to put their fingers on the crux of the matter.

When their children have no prospect, they will learn it the hard way -- perhaps more Nancy Lanza's to be, Sandy Hook, Newtown, Aurora, Sandy, etc.

[-] -1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

Well let's work towards preventing that huh?

[-] 1 points by grapes (3551) 1 year ago

We can try but perhaps we will end up like Obama, too, tepid but not just right.

[-] 0 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

I am a little more positive than that. I do not consider the gun slaughters you referred to (they will come as always) in this equation.

The growth of the movement will benefit most by convincing more of the comfortable.

I don't think Obama is involved.

[-] 1 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

Who are the infiltrators you speak of?

[-] 1 points by redandbluestripedpill (333) 1 year ago

I remember lots of posts here in December of 2011 about the black bloc basically rioting destructively. In Oakland busses were seen unloading with people that rioted destructively causing massive riot response.

That was all it took. Cops then used "cognitive distortions" to justify their actions, AND municipal officials backed them. That's all needed to smear the movement WHILE it's not overtly defending the constitution which guarantees the rights used.

[-] 1 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

So the infiltrators you are speaking about were under cover police? Subcontractors of police or federal agencies? I'm not doubting you. Just trying to get a sense of the detail here.

[-] 1 points by redandbluestripedpill (333) 1 year ago

Yes, that too. Kind of like a dumping ground of manipulation by whatever group had potential for effect.

[-] 1 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

Ah. OK.

[-] 1 points by grapes (3551) 1 year ago

Here is a tribute to one who had stopped the madness of the 25 minutes to total annihilation and let loose the seeds of freedom: a liberating tribute.

To the millennial generation: the lightning bolts of liberation are in the grasp of your hands. Look up to the goddess of liberty and the broken chain beneath. Do you see our common destiny in this moment of opportunity before the gathering forces tape our mouths shut? Can you feel the seeds of freedom stuffed into your pockets? Can you promise to keep the torch lit for all of humanity?

[-] 1 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

I hope the millennials continue to help power Occupy. Our future may be in their hands.

[-] 1 points by grapes (3551) 1 year ago

As always, the future, whether heaven or hell, belongs to the youth. At one time, we were the youth and had lived through wanton slaughters so we knew some truths that could help the youth such as flesh and blood were no match for guns and bullets at Kent State University and will continue to be no match.

[-] 1 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

That's the lesson you took away from the civil rights and peace movements in US, Gandhi's movement in India?

Also, have you seen the award winning film "Why We Fight"?

[-] 1 points by grapes (3551) 1 year ago

Of course not but that is the very least that we can leave for our successors within the character-count-limit of a tweet: Think and prepare: flesh and blood were no match for guns and bullets at Kent State University and will continue to be no match.

Peaceful movements that had succeeded did not succeed because of their peaceful nature alone. There were always many other factors that came into play. Many many peaceful movements ended up achieving nothing. That is why sensing den Zeitgeist is important. As you had already noted, the key was the "tension." In physical terms, the key for success is a metastable state with high population count amenable to coherent transitioning.

No, I did not watch the film "Why We Fight."

[-] 0 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

Check it out man. Powerful. Also check this out. It'll give you hope: http://sue-adams.hubpages.com/hub/iceland-shows-how-to-solve-economic-crisis . The article is great and so is the video at the top.

[-] 2 points by grapes (3551) 1 year ago

In our frontier days, we in the U.S. had exactly the same type of solution, namely bankruptcy, to resolve insurmountable financial problems. We still have laws derived from our frontier tradition but they had been vastly weakened and tweaked to suit the needs of the business elites. Ben Bernanke and Hank Paulson had even propped up the economy for more than 1.5 years until the new bankruptcy law (federal student loans would no longer be discharged) could kick in and the adjustable rate mortgages outstanding had gone beyond the teaser-rate periods before Lehman Brothers was allowed to collapse. Before that however in January of 2008, Bear-Stearns was saved by merging with J.P. Morgan Chase with Federal Reserve's credit backstopping.

Iceland was hit so hard that its people really woke up and took control. In the U.S., we HAD a change of administration BUT our President was not financially confident or savvy enough so he put his trust in "poacher-turned-park-ranger" Timothy Geithner and "brain-think-whizzed-past-mouth-gate" Lawrence Summers. The U.S. populace was content enough through various social safety-net programs such as unemployment compensation and nutritional supplementation programs that we embarked on years of "recovery," also known as "waiting-it-out-so-people-forget" or "diffusing-the-blows-and-sock-it-to-the-idiots." Financial criminals were not prosecuted even after the systemic risks had subsided. We had the opportunity to solve the problem but we squandered it. Instead, we now have even bigger banks than before so they may eventually become too big to save even with central bank intervention.

[-] 1 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

That's exactly how it was in Iceland. But they fixed it.

[-] 1 points by grapes (3551) 1 year ago

Where there is a will, there is a way. Those who are satisfied with the "anti-depressants" do not have the will.

[-] 1 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

I think people just don't realize what's possible. I honestly think we've done a good job collectively describing the problems but kind of a lousy job gathering support that could be had.  If we described specific solutions and a vision of where successful implementation of them would lead, support would "rise like the sun through the morning clouds."

[-] 1 points by grapes (3551) 1 year ago

Maybe we should have a more focused serialized push for issues. Applying maximal pressure to not more than two or three issues at a time can yield results quickly. If not, we can quickly move on to the next two or three issues. At least we will learn what can work and what cannot. In all cases of resistance, the key to breaking through is the maximal pressure exceeding it and highly focused pressure can achieve what long-term moderate pressure cannot achieve.

[-] 1 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

Well, what if we took a few of these and pushed using the methods described here: http://occupywallst.org/forum/breaking-news-hijacking-occurring-every-day-in-the/

If these folks can do it http://occupywallst.org/forum/this-is-fuckin-awesome/ , why can't we?

[Removed]

[-] 0 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

Are millennials really less rebellious against authority? I keep hearing that but how do you then explain the rise of occupy movement?

[-] 3 points by elf3 (3102) 1 year ago

gen-x'ers!!!!

from what I can tell the millennial aren't much different from baby boomer parents with whom they share matching ugg boots and values on competition and wealth gaps. They're both entitled types - not to mention millennial have no idea how easy things were for baby boomers because baby boomers would make you think they had it hard... bwwhhhaa haa haa haa... yeah no degree required, fat pensions, good pay affordable housing, plenty of retirement - free ride and they are still robbing the next generations blind because they are a greedy moronic selfish hypocritical generation. Will they retire at 67 like us (nope) will they have ssi and medicare (yep) - will we ? - nooo!!! they want to privatize it for us. Millennial are still living in their childhood bedroom while mom is retired and trying to be their best friend because they finally got bored renovating their kitchens (having gaggles of kids) and their pasta machines and gadgets... it's only when they die and millennial are truly on their own that they might bother to take a stand.

Gen-ex'ers rent from baby boomers since housing is still so out of reach (until the millennial brat kid takes over the apartment) how's it feel to get evicted by a spoiled ugg boot wearing 18 year old brat?

[-] 2 points by Shayneh (-482) 1 year ago

Well if you think the Baby Boomer generation is "entitled types" not having to work for what they have - Here's what I have to say to you.

You couldn't wipe the sweat off the balls of a Baby Boomer because you can't even begin to realize just how much the Baby Boomer generation gave this country when it comes to not only "industrial development" but electronic development.

What have you done in your miniscual life that has contributed to todays society other then whine about what others have that you don't have because you don't have the skills or knowledge to go out and get it.

[-] 2 points by elf3 (3102) 1 year ago

"can't wipe the sweat off your balls" ....wow - You may be right that pedestal you put yourselves on is pretty high but I don't give a shit about what other people have - I give a shit about the state of the world and what is lacking in it - Thanks for the pompous self-righteous demonstration saved me from a lot of typing. Technology is ruining the world btw - but I know boomers love their gadgets and toys. Never stopped to think others might not enjoy it quite like you do, but then you don't put a lot of thought the fact that others are different than you? There is a whole world out there that reaches further than your finger and your i-phone and your boomer brand of lifestyle.

Also - a question - have you always been so quick to turn on the movement? or are you not part of it (I think the majority of anti-occupiers are comprised of Boomers and Millennial) so I wouldn't be surprised.

[-] -1 points by Shayneh (-482) 1 year ago

Well if you don't like what we did then turn in your cell phone, computer, and all the electronic devices you own. In addition to that if you have a new vehicle get rid of it and get one from the 50's without AC that only gets 11 mpg.

Stop your whining about the Baby Boomers - you can't hold a candle to any one of them when it comes to what they have encountered during their lifetime - You have it on "easy street" compared to most of them.

[-] 1 points by elf3 (3102) 1 year ago

are you confusing me with your ugg boot wearing kids? again you make it so easy for me really my wrists are getting a good rest from typing .. much easier when people demonstrate my points for me

[-] 1 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

I don't know about all that, but the article at this link shows some people who got off their ass and did some pretty cool stuff! Gives us some real hope: http://occupywallst.org/forum/this-is-fuckin-awesome/ (read the short reticle 1st and then check out the short video at top of article).

[-] 1 points by Shayneh (-482) 1 year ago

We are talking about her in America not in a country where there are only 320,000 people.

[-] 1 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

What's the difference?

[-] 0 points by Shayneh (-482) 1 year ago

Like around 299.5 million people - that's the difference.

[-] 1 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

But what's the substantive difference?

[-] 1 points by grapes (3551) 1 year ago

The U.S. dollar is the world's reserve currency so the U.S. federal reserve and department of treasury can collaborate to create as much credit and money as the confidence of the world can bear subject to the promissory note called the debt ceiling issued by the U.S. Congress.

What that means is we can run trillion dollar deficits year after year to ameliorate political constituents' hardship through "anti-depressant" programs such as extended-extended-extended unemployment compensation and what were known as food stamps or stimulus programs.

[-] 1 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

The fact is, when the people rule, the people rule. The people of the U.S. can increase their participation in direct action and achieve the same level of pressure and results as those that are achieved in Iceland.

[-] 1 points by grapes (3551) 1 year ago

The Icelanders quickly forced out their prime minister and their government because they have a parliamentary form of government. The U.S. does not have that so even with the popular will, the wholesale cleansing of the political establishment can only occur roughly once every two years.

The U.S. system is not totally without its merits because for such a powerful country, extremely fast zigzagging of its government can cause global whiplashes. We gain in stability at the cost of often having our divided government doing nearly nothing. Sufficiently long durations of time between elections can often make our people forget why they were put into their predicaments. We may have Macondo people who inadvertently maintain the status quo of doing next to nothing. We do a lot of self reflection, trying to make some meaning out of the intricate patterns formed by the lint inside of our common navel.

[-] 1 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

Ha! Well how do you explain the impact of the civil rights movement then?

[-] 1 points by grapes (3551) 1 year ago

The civil rights movement had its martyrs, enemies, betrayals, and transcendence that kept it alive. Unfortunately, it may very well be true that a velvety revolution may be impossible because there always seems to be martyrs in any revolution of consequence.

[-] 1 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

You said below:"When the behind-the-scene "arm twisting" works on the board of directors, we may see victories. We need to put ourselves mentally in the position of the board directors to appreciate how to "twist their arms" to maximize their "pain" so they comply. I hope that you are right about not needing martyrs."

I agree. King explained the use of active non-violent resistance as follows in his “Letter from Birmingham Jail”:

"Nonviolent direct action seeks to create such a crisis and foster such a tension that a community which has constantly refused to negotiate is forced to confront the issue. It seeks to so dramatize the issue that it can no longer be ignored. My citing the creation of tension as part of the work of the nonviolent-resister may sound rather shocking. But I must confess that I am not afraid of the word "tension." I have earnestly opposed violent tension, but there is a type of constructive, nonviolent tension which is necessary for growth. . . The purpose of our direct-action program is to create a situation so crisis-packed that it will inevitably open the door to negotiation.”

[-] 1 points by grapes (3551) 1 year ago

Do not be afraid of the Devil. For the Devil having a head also has a neck with carotid arteries. CEOs who come at you with their horns were known to drop dead when they experienced a blood clot in their carotid arteries at the board.

[-] 1 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

I'm not convinced that we need martyrs. I think we may be in a new paradigm here where there's no center to strike, just an idea that won't go away that translates into relentless direct action. We're going to win this.

[-] 1 points by grapes (3551) 1 year ago

When the behind-the-scene "arm twisting" works on the board of directors, we may see victories. We need to put ourselves mentally in the position of the board directors to appreciate how to "twist their arms" to maximize their "pain" so they comply. I hope that you are right about not needing martyrs.

[-] 2 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

What do you think the proportions are of Occupy active participants: 60% millenial / gen y, 30% gen x and 10% other.

How about "occupy supporters" (not active in marches or occupations but supportive? 60% baby boomer and older, 20% gen x, 20% millenial/GenY ?

Note: polls from national news outlets last fall showed 40% - 50% of Americans supported Occupy Wall Street.

[-] 1 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

Well elf, that might be some of 'em but many also helped Occupy become what it is. I think it's a mixed bag, just as some gen X'ers rose to the occasion and some are just channel surfing ironically and bitching about their raw deal, just as some boomers sold out in their older years and others stayed true to their 60's ideals. Every generation has its heros and slackers, its materialists and rebels. I think what matters is that we unify and fight this good fight together by engaging in nonviolent action, occupying spaces, raising awareness and growing the movement.

Once we realize we have more in common than we have separating us, we'll be able to make decisions from a position of unified strength rather than demands from a position of divided weakness.

I'm not discounting your criticisms. I have some of the same gut reactions you do. But then I catch myself and realize the gravity of the present situation.. Just suggesting that practically speaking, we have to get busy. The 1% are busy as hell as you know and the clock is ticking. We don't have the luxury of being divided.

[-] 2 points by elf3 (3102) 1 year ago

Unifying the movement is dissolving its roots and watering it down...the point is getting lost because of them... divide and solidify. This is about class and it's about generation the longer those facts are denied the more you'll keep hearing about every other boring cause they feel like stirring in to the mix; And what they're mixing in is the fact that they're doing just ducky and fine in this economy and their lame 60's groove shit (which doesn't make the movement seem different or unique in its cause, which it is; but then they were all over the place back then too.) And what it now lacks and needs in the worst way (anger and outrage) is missing as Millennial are hyper-focused on student loans and political correctness (they think whatever their parents told them to and the corporate media reinforces) And their parents are on board with whatever gets rid of that loan too you betcha. But they can't even eloquently explain why the colleges (and banks) shouldn't make a racket nor do i actually think they understand any of it. When you get into the nitty gritty with these people and try to discuss the real juice, they get bored in a matter of approximately 2.4 seconds. Look at the posts on here - really? Off topic off topic - pc nation, battering rams full of self-righteous bullshit, and current event-osis. A step away from threads on celebrities. I don't feel better than you by the way, I feel frustrated, with every reason in the world to feel that way. I'm in a generation wedged between sucky and suckier (apply whichever order you'd like to boomer and millenial). And you both stole this movement and put your own artificial stamp of suck on it. Does that elaborate any better how I feel?

[-] 1 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

Man, you should get out in the woods and take a hike. Breathe some air. Forget about this for a day or a week or two and come back refreshed. Seems to me that ou're hyper focused on what's wrong and not realign your own role in it. We all make that mistake. All the time. But the truth is that once we realize we are part of the problem, we can be part of the solution.

I'm not really talking to you specifically here. Just sort of telling you what I've discovered resets me when I feel hopeless. Hope seems deluded when you're hopeless. But once you step out of it for a while, you realize tht hopelessness was itself the delusion.

Here's what I think the problem is at root and what the REAL solution is: GOOD NEWS: a completely different solution (revolution of the mind)  http://occupywallst.org/forum/new-view-why-gun-control-peace-treaties-campaign-f/

And

http://occupywallst.org/forum/we-have-the-power-to-turn-this-world-around-this-o/

And

http://occupywallst.org/forum/we-dont-see-the-power-we-have-in-our-hands-to-tran/

And

http://occupywallst.org/forum/this-is-fuckin-awesome/

[-] 1 points by grapes (3551) 1 year ago

I think that it ultimately boils down to who controls and manipulates the power and the money and the credit and the creditworthiness of our society and individuals in it. At one moment, one can be the most valuable and creditworthy customer of a bank and at another moment, one can have the interest rate jacked up to what I would call usurious rates. This arbitrariness just sucks. We fought our War of Independence to be rid of arbitrary rule but here we are again with this total crock of arbitrary manipulation and collusion of government and moneyed interests.

I take an exception to your stating that it is an issue of class and generation. Class as an idea from Karl Marx is just passe. I will welcome any member of the 1% to join our movement because justice is not a function of class nor wealth nor any of the other attributes. Generation, analogous to class, is a generalization that can help us think but we should see through that it is just a lens through which we see reality and that it is not reality itself. There is the issue of justice here that we all need to work towards, no matter what class or generation or wotnot we belong to.

[-] 0 points by OTP (-203) from Tampa, FL 1 year ago

And at the root of class is the financial system we are part of....who runs that?

Class is about how much money one has, or has access to. Who runs the money in this system?

[-] 0 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

CORPORATE OLIGARCHS run the money in the system!!!!!!!

OWS is fighting Wall st corp oligarchs! Have you forgotten?

[-] 0 points by elf3 (3102) 1 year ago

Rich People!

[-] 2 points by OTP (-203) from Tampa, FL 1 year ago

But who runs the rich. Everyone answers to someone, so who is at the top of the ladder?

200 West Street, in Manhattan.

[-] 1 points by grapes (3551) 1 year ago

Actually, Goldman Sachs may seemingly be at the top of the ladder but they are a sell-side firm that represents (only sometimes, as even the masters of the universe and the government discovered to their dismay) the interests of the buy-side (asset management) firms. Who are the owners of the interests of these buy-side firms? They are all of us through our pension plans, insurance contracts, school endowments, foundations, etc. Yes, WE are the people who ultimately control this monstrous vampire. The somewhat surprising thing that I had unraveled was that WE ARE the source of much of this conflict of interest and snafu because we do not realize that our own greed(or so interpreted or perceived by our deputies) is what had created the handcuffs for ourselves.

[-] 3 points by OTP (-203) from Tampa, FL 1 year ago

Thats an excellent response...I agree...

WE should be active. WE created it, which means WE can fix it.

[-] 2 points by elf3 (3102) 1 year ago

poetic - though we didn't all create this system and certainly we here are not the ones perpetuating it... especially not when our government was bribed and stolen and the democratic process was ousted (well at least me, I'm not participating where I don't have to with my dollars plus not much to contribute there so)...but the name of the game here is to become so large and powerful and consolidated that the consumer becomes part of a parasitic symbiotic relationship of forced reliancy. In other words want to eat/ only show in town, well you buy / costs this much - can't pay/work more, no jobs/ use subsidies not enough taxes now/ here we are ...at the edge of a cliff = (or in laymen's terms corporate bailout) but yes people need to make the connection of where their dollars go and what they perpetuate or who they decide to help grow larger. In a capitalist society apparently they will be your leader, so buy wisely?or...BOYCOTT where applicable! since noone seems willing to de-monopolize it.

[-] 1 points by grapes (3551) 1 year ago

Do you own a 401k, IRA, in a pension plan, have home owner insurance, health insurance, car insurance, death insurance, disability insurance, attend college with financial aid disbursements from endowment, or watch a TV show supported by the XYZ Endowment or Foundation? If you have never done any of these, you are not part of the problem. If you did any of these, you may be part of the problem.

We let our corporations create all of these structures that we bought into so in a sense we created these problems ourselves like you had said with the iPhone. The silver lining of this really dark cloud is that we created it so we can also destroy it. The Gordians who created the knot also have Alexander's sword. I sought to insulate myself as much as possible from the corporations so as not to be part of the problem, not that it would make much difference if I am doing it alone, but it makes me feel much better about myself as a decent human being. Yes, private pleasure has value for me, too.

[-] -1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

No it ain't us & "our pensions"! that "control this monstrous vampire" That's dishonest distraction from the criminals who run the corp org crime syndicates.

We the people were the victims ("marks") of the 1% corp oligarchs you are providing cover to.

Our pensions were raided by these corp criminals scum. We the people lost everything. THEY (the 1% corp oligarchs) got all our money.

When investigating a theft you have to be smart enough to see that someone was robbed (the 99%) and someone got away with the loot! (1% corp oligarchs).

THAT is the truth.

Fight the power!

[-] 1 points by grapes (3551) 1 year ago

The corporate oligarchs are certainly criminal although our system of justice has not prosecuted them much -- perhaps nearly everyone in AND out of our government felt guilty, not daring to point the finger, lest their own excreta be found in the financial cesspool and traced back. By no means, the corporate oligarchs could effect by themselves the Great Recession without neglect or collusion from our government. The systemic failure could have been stopped in myriad places but no one dared disturb the prevailing silence.

We the people also include the 1% corporate oligarchs. Our pensions were not raided by them directly. It is not true that they got all our money. The corporate oligarchs lost huge amounts, too, but that is probably well deserved. The money associated with the credit bubble had come from thin air simply disappeared into thin air when the confidence collapsed. After all, ye all who play the con game must abide by the rules of the con game -- easy come easy go.

[-] -1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

No the 1% oligarchs indeed got away with the loot. they didn't lose anything.

It was the decent hard working americans who lost everything why they were victimized by mortgage fraud, pension loss from market failure due to irresponsible oligarchs, and millions of job loses from same oligarchs causing world economic crash.

1% created the mess, & didn't get hurt at all. They got bailed out we got sold out.

[-] 1 points by grapes (3551) 1 year ago

It is not necessarily the same 1% because ownership changes hands at electronic and optical speeds. Some of the 1% who held on probably were not hurt much at all but those who did not hold on were probably hurt per capita more in their financial assets than the 99% simply because they have so much more in financial assets than the 99%.

Now the job losses are a different matter. The 1% was certainly culpable but what could we have done otherwise if they got us and the world economy by the throat?

[-] 0 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

There are 1% who support the 99% and acknowledge that the vast majority ofthe 1% escaped losses and in fact increased their % of wealth.

The 1% have taken 85% of all new wealth created in the last few years.

Sorry I do not accept your contention that any measurable % ofthe 1% losy money. They increased their wealth. For any 1%'r that may have. I care.not.

My concern is for the decent hard working Americans who make up the engine of our economy and continue to have their wealth transferred to the greedy, lazy, do nothing 1%'rs who embrace socialist govt policies that benefit their class but never if it benefits the working/middlr class.

[-] 1 points by grapes (3551) 1 year ago

You have just named the source of the 1%/99% wealth "transfer" -- decent hard working Americans who work for the 1% to create much wealth for them. I do not call it a transfer because the wealth did not exist prior to the injection of capital, technology, and labor. Wealth can be created and destroyed depending on the harmonies or coherence of purpose achieved.

[-] 0 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

Well the wealth that the 1% oligarchs have came from the decent hard working Americans, through the greedy, dishonest, irresponsibility of the1% oligarchs.

You don't have to call it a transfer, but that doesn't make it any less true.

[-] -2 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

To put the blame on credit card/mortgage users is screwed up. The 99% are the victims of this con!

The con artists are the guys who got away with the loot. The 1% wall st corp oligarchs.

It is a false equivalence to put our victimization on the same level as them perpetrating the theft/con.

I can't agree WE are to blame. We are the victims, I never 'blame the victim'

[-] 1 points by grapes (3551) 1 year ago

Germany did not have our system of subsidizing mortgages by allowing tax deductions on the interests. They do not have vastly lower rates of home ownership. Our mortgage interest deduction only served to enable people to get in over their heads and drown themselves when a financial wave comes by. Yes, it was immoral to set a trap for people like that but one could also chalk up some responsibility to the mortgage or credit card borrower for not having the financial prudence. Some corporate oligarchs certainly were and still are culpable so prosecution is warranted.

[-] 0 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

I NEVER blame the victims (marks) of that con job! I'll leave that to you. I know how con jobswork, In the end the guys who "get away with the loot" or the con men, the criminals.

So many banks (not enough) have been fined (not enough) for mtg fraund, negligence, racism, criminality, that we can be comfortable stating THEY (!% bankster oligarchs) are responsible for the mtg crash.

[-] 1 points by grapes (3551) 1 year ago

Of course, the banksters are responsible for the mortgage crash because they were supposed to be the gate-keepers so they were negligent at the very least and very likely malevolent as some subpoenaed information had shown.

Virtually no one aside from real-estate attorneys perhaps reads through the fine prints on a mortgage so many people probably fell victims to the predatory industry. It is however possible not to have fallen into the traps set by the banksters. For example, U.S. wage growth lagging far behind housing price increases tipped some people off as early as 2005. It does not take a rocket scientist to figure out that house mortgages need to be paid by the wages earned.

[-] -2 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

Well the people who DID know were the bankers who got away with the loot.

[-] 1 points by grapes (3551) 1 year ago

Not totally true. The information was public so people were simply not taking notice of the blatant gap. Of course, at the time nearly all of us were "intoxicated" with the ride on the financial rockets of our houses powered by mortgage debts so there was even official suppression of the cry-wolf-ers.

[-] -1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

The bankers knew! They perpetrated crimes related to fraud, racism and dishonest improper practices. They have admitted as much. The decent hard working American borrowers were conned, they were the victims.

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[-] 1 points by grapes (3551) 1 year ago

We the people let the 1% rape us because we believe in "money" and all of the associated fiction that they had created. Dig deeply into how our 401k's or houses have recovered "so much" of their lost values and can you discover where all of that "money" came from? Stock market recovered greatly and hundreds of billions of dollars of new wealth has been "created" so we have been really missing out on it, right?

The truth is that there is a vast difference between a tangent and a secant and the financially savvy ones know the difference and take advantage of it. Diluting the power of the people through multiple layers of financial intermediaries (through mutual funds, pension funds, banks, financial fiduciaries, corporate boards, insurance companies, foundations, trusts [blind or otherwise], etc.) is the same trick used for creating the Great Recession. There are so many intertwined layers that the financial relationships from individuals back to themselves become nearly untraceable.

We dream of the system resisting. We dream of the system standing tall. We dream of it raping us. When we awaken and because of that the system crashes and vanishes like the monstrous vampire meeting the light of dawn, we then know that it was all just a very bad dream. It was so frightening because we had imbued it with our own meanings and we had given it mental power.

The financial system is a simulation that supposedly tracks reality. The financially savvy ones knew this but abused their control of the simulation generator so others suffered because they did not understand the nature of the very bad dream.

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[-] 2 points by grapes (3551) 1 year ago

No. Our financial system is a con game, literally. It is built on and sustained by CONfidence and that can be very ephemeral, non-existent, very solid, or anywhere amongst them. The value of something is what a free-willed person will voluntarily ante up to acquire it. That depends very much on confidence.

What forced the hand of government post-Lehman-collapse was the runs on the money market funds where many businesses kept their payroll money. If the runs were to go on, we could have seen many businesses closing down, not having the money to pay their employees. The employees not having money cannot buy from the businesses and the whole system can collapse. It was very scary but we did not fall into the abyss of confidence collapse which can be very real indeed but also ultimately unreal.

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[-] 1 points by grapes (3551) 1 year ago

Yes, they are at the epicenter but we are all part of the magma and faults contributing to it.

[-] -1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

Corporate oligarchs are at the top. Remember? Did you forget what we are fighting against?

[-] 1 points by elf3 (3102) 1 year ago

who runs corporate oligarchs ?

[-] -1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

Corporations that run the planet (into the ground), and prey on the 99% are run by oligarchs (WEALTHY PEOPLE). The 1%!!!! Are you joking?

This is basic stuff. You don't know who we are fighting?

[-] 2 points by OTP (-203) from Tampa, FL 1 year ago

I think he wanted some specifics.

Or you could keep insulting him, and repeating yourself...over and over....and over....and over.....and over.....

[-] -2 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

If the question is repeated over and over,we can only repeat the honest answer.

Seems. he's like you and wants people to be distracted from the facts of corporate oligarchs being the problem. Doesn't hewant to provide the corp criminals cover by saying it is govt that is at the top of the pyramid?

You've said that.

[-] 2 points by elf3 (3102) 1 year ago

she thinks filthy stinking Rich people run corporate oligarchs we could play chicken and egg on this back to eternity but we all know trickle down is a myth

[-] -2 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

An oligarch IS a person. a corp oligarch is a person who runs a corp.

Trickle down is voodoo economics that repubs used to transfer wealth from the 99% to the 1%

[-] 2 points by OTP (-203) from Tampa, FL 1 year ago

The government is bought out by a very small group of people you twit.

A bit smaller than the all engulfing "corporate oligarchs" you speak of.

How about some names. Name the names. Can you even do that? Or is your knowledge base not deep enough?

If you get distracted by people diving deeper thats your problem. If you are confused, say you are confused.

[-] -2 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

You have no idea what I do! Not in my personal life, I've worked for others most of my life, and now work for myself. No investment income!

Non of your business.

Been with OWS since the beginning, countless protests, many meetings, given much donations and help.

Also non of your business, no need to prove anything to you.

I stand on the content of my comments regarding the issues that affect the 99%.

Just as my judgement of you is based on your constant anti 99% comments.

You can't stick to the facts of issues that affect the 99%, and most resort to unfounded, dishonest personal attacks because of the impotence of your position.

Weak, transparent, right wing, plant

[-] -2 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

I ain't confused, I ain't got a problem going deeper, I don't need to name names.

Do you own fuckin research. Look at Wall st/brokerage/hedge funds/banking/insurance/ratings agencies/big pharma/big oil,gas,coal/big agri/big real estate, take their board members, their top execs. And you got a good start.

And also the brainwashed tools (1/2 the 99% (repubs)) who work to distract from the 1% corp oligarchal criminals and blame the pension holders or corp tool pols.

They are also a big part of the problem.

[-] 1 points by grapes (3551) 1 year ago

Yes, some corporate oligarchs are criminals but all of us are either enablers or accomplices. Every time we use a credit card, we are in fact giving a slice of our economy to them. Have you used or do you still use credit cards? Every time we take out a mortgage, a car loan, or a student loan from a corporation, we are doing the same thing again. Very few people are truly innocent not having propped up the corporate oligarchs and enabling their criminal activities.

[-] -2 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

Great article if you wanna know about millenials.

http://www.care2.com/causes/millennials-dont-care-tell-that-to-their-face.html

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[-] 1 points by elf3 (3102) 1 year ago

are you familiar with McCarthyism ? Cause you sound kind of like that to me - yes slap a red stamp on my forehead and justify a groups moronic behavior (typically I would refer to them as assholes). But in this case they seem to belong to an awful large generation who seems to be dictating a pretty shitty lifestyle with their voting card ... hmmm - kind of like what the German citizenry and bystanders did to the Jewish people ??

[-] -1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

Whaaaaaat?

So, let me get this straight, the millenials are all the same, you compare them to the German citizens during nazi rule, & I'm like McCarthy?

AaaaaaaaaaH ha ha haha. LMFAO. That is rich.

The millenials are a generation like any other, some useless, seem active. OWS was formed by them, and as such they are changing the country and the world for the better. By contrast the Hitler youth all followed govt blindly.

So you are absolutely wrong, millenials are NOT all the same, have created much positive change and my calling you out for generalizing a whole generation is not McCarthyism, Your generalization though is just plain ignorant.

Good luck in all your good efforts.

[-] 2 points by elf3 (3102) 1 year ago

maybe I may be wrong - Happy to provide a laugh - but does it give pause that they all follow their i-phones blindly instead of boycotting the makers on Wall Street who produce them in Chinese slave factories? Herumphh - thanks for the luck - I guess I will need as much as I can get. My point is they aren't connecting their lifestyles or choices to the outcomes (much like Hitler Youth in fact) good description ! or was that mine ? You'd think that those who hate Wall Street and are running a supposed protest against them would stop giving them all their money on items that aren't necessities- just sayin.

[-] 1 points by grapes (3551) 1 year ago

The really important thing here is what the millennials used their iPhones or iXxxxx for. Lenin said that the Capitalists would sell ropes to him to hang them with. Should Lenin not use the ropes because they were politically contaminated by the Capitalists? Of course not. iXxxxx can be great tools for social change if used properly.

[-] 1 points by elf3 (3102) 1 year ago

it's a point - though we don't seem to be accomplishing much with the ropes so maybe they're working in the opposite fashion (are we all hanging ourselves with them?)

[-] 1 points by grapes (3551) 1 year ago

We may very well be but only time will tell.

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[-] 2 points by OTP (-203) from Tampa, FL 1 year ago

Sell one of your houses so they can do more.

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[-] 3 points by OTP (-203) from Tampa, FL 1 year ago

You stated it a while back. Go to hell with your hypocrisy calling me a right wing plant.

[-] -2 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

You are a right wing Lying piece of shit plant, I know you are a marketing firm and I'm sure you're paid to be here. So fuck you.

[-] 3 points by OTP (-203) from Tampa, FL 1 year ago

I have no problem saying I do marketing, I work for myself. 32 and broke. Why do you think I liked recruitment so much? duh.

And you should have no problem admitting you live off of rentals and financial investments. Oh the hypocrisy!! Maybe you should help out with the finance team in NY. Or maybe help out at all, that would be a nice change of pace.

And it doesnt take a rocket scientist to read through your posts and realize its all just silly gargling that isnt based in anything reality based...

"We" "We" "We" ... Ive never seen someone do so little and take so much credit.

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[-] 1 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

Well said. I admit that I don't really understand this phenomenon. The millennials have so much more depth than they are given credit for. Is this "they aren't rebellious" thing just a ruse or wish by mainstream media? Or were millennials unrebellious until they had something to rebel against? Life was pretty cushy for many of them with baby boomer parents with some money who thrived during Clinton years (but were once rebels themselves).

[-] 3 points by OTP (-203) from Tampa, FL 1 year ago

They are probably the most of apathetic generation in a long long time.

Facebook, texting and video games have a way of subduing emotions.

Combine that with a shit diet, and a very poor education, and you get the mindless zombie consumer class that the establishment loves. Decisions run by the TV.

[-] 2 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

I think a sma but visible percentage are as you describe but that most are bright, strong, confident, savvy and they're waking the fuck up quickly. They are our best hope and I'm confident that with our help they can lead this country to a brighter future. We can do this together. Together we are greater than the sum of our parts. Together we can break these divisive chains and rise.

I think the worst of us Gen X'ers were as annoying as the worst of the GenY/Millenials and we should overlook the worst of all groups. They're the slim minority. Let's focus on harnessing the power of the majority.

We can do this OTP. We can rise above all this and win this.

[-] 2 points by OTP (-203) from Tampa, FL 1 year ago

I was trying to recruit people for the ol hope and change campaign in 08 and it was like pulling teeth at the campuses.

Sometimes people think Im being too hard...and then a few think Im purposely trying to dissuade... which is bullshit because they have no clue..

What Im trying to do is paint a realistic picture of the moutain in front of us. I think its manageable, but when people take it too lightly they get burned out and frustrated, and then you dont see them anymore (Im sure youve seen this- not including internet chats).

Like with the Walmart walkout gig. We fliered the entire store. The other groups didnt do theirs. You know how many employees we got to show up for the meeting? 1. 1 employee showed up. Talk about deflating. But its the reality. And if its not accepted, people get dissappointed and quit.

I'd spend an entire night flyering for events. Maybe get 2-3 people to show up.

And honestly, the lacking of the youth wasnt the dissapointing thing. It was the lacking of older adults, those who have management and organizing experience. Huge groups of kids trying to get things going, doing the best they can, and the majority of the adults simply would just honk when they drove by.

I dont know, its frustrating all the way around. I guess I just get motivated by the bigger the hurdle, some dont. Which is fine. But I always felt there needed to be a balance, because if numbers are going down down down and everyone is just happy as shit and thinking its going great, well....we see where that gets us.

[-] 1 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

I do measure progress by the number of people at actions / protests. I agree that's important and we can't ever delude ourselves. However, I think you're so close to this with all of your sincere effort that you also sometimes miss the big picture. We are a very young movement. We're only 2 minutes in to a 2 hour game. I realize the urgency of the moment but we have a LOT going for us and we're in it for the long haul. We're looking at a 5 - 10 time horizon to achieve occupy aims. We're going to see peaks and valleys along the way. Sometimes the lava is bubbling just beneath the surface and sometimes it's spewing out of an erupting volcano. Our job as individuals in my view is to take care of ourselves. Get plenty of rest and work our asses off during our free waking hours to move the ball forward every single fucking day, when it's sexy and fun and when it's boring and demoralizing. That's what gets the job done.

I'm not speaking to you personally here of course. I can't possibly criticize you personally because clearly you are working your ass off and putting it on the line. All I'm saying is that what you're doing is important and you should keep doing it relentlessly. I'm trying to give you a high 5 here even if it doesn't sound like it.

I still think we should be frustrated. We should channel that frustration though into direct nonviolent actions. Because Chris Hedges is absolutely right about the seriousness, momentum and sheer size of the force we're up against. That force is picking up steam so we need to act every day of the week with whatever we have. Always dedicated to nonviolence.

We can do this OTP. Of this I am absolutely positive. We're going to win this.

[-] 1 points by elf3 (3102) 1 year ago

sorry not to discourage you, looking to boomers and millennial for hope? - grrr - you're a gen-exer? though i enjoy the irony and - I've agreed with and enjoyed some of your other posts - all I can say is yugh.

[-] 1 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

Why?

[-] -1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

It is a big generation. Your comments refer to the worst of them.

Surprise surprise, OTP is negative, pessimistic, and defeatist. We might as well give up! find my a corner to crawl into, cry me a river.

LOL.

OWS would be nothing without the young generation. ALL our great success, & slow progress is because of them.

THEY have changed the direction of the country from a tea party centric conservative direction to a progressive one.

We owe everything to them. Because they ain't all as you describe.

You are simply once again very clumsily trying to discourage any efforts to fight the PTB!

Well if anyone is listening. Disregard the "nattering nabobs of negativism"!!! They work against us!

Stay focused, Keep your eyes on the prize, We will not be moved.

It will take years of hard work on the streets and in the voting booth, but things are turning slowly.

[-] 2 points by OTP (-203) from Tampa, FL 1 year ago

The "they" you speak of are myself and friends.

And if it takes years of hard work, sell some of your financial investments or rental houses and donate it you prick.

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[-] 2 points by OTP (-203) from Tampa, FL 1 year ago

Big words from some old rich ass who calls people suckers who have to work, and went to a couple weekend rallies.

Protesting the banks while living off financial investments and other's rents.

Fuckin sell out.

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[-] 2 points by OTP (-203) from Tampa, FL 1 year ago

Those were your words. If they werent, please tell us how you can afford to sit your ugly ass on this site 24/7? In Brooklyn?

There's a reason you called him a sucker for having to work.

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[-] 1 points by elf3 (3102) 1 year ago

Can't defeat without defeatism or a spray of negativity - the future is bleak - not full of sunshine and roses. Picture yourself wading and sifting through a heaping pile of garbage for scraps like they do in the third world (cause that's what we're facing) as you wish for our current state of affairs back (for these were the good times)... now don't you wish you got a bit angrier and fought a little harder when you still had strength and enough food to eat and some will to fight? If you think these things don't happen, if don't think that the same people who caused there it aren't running the same show here, then you are blind or a fool or both. The only time to prevent your current future path is NOW. Wall Street works at lightspeed - turning slowly in those terms means you lost.

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[-] 1 points by elf3 (3102) 1 year ago

what about boycotts?

[-] 1 points by elf3 (3102) 1 year ago

Boomers and Millenials don't have the same stake in the game pure and simple which is why they won't touch Classism with a ten foot cattle prod. Yes plenty of Classism - here we are, Entering a new age of Aristocracy but shhh "let's not talk about that" you can identify with a cause until you actually live it - then you seem half- assed and insincere and the movement will be held underwater exactly where Wall Street wants the public. Maybe you have a trust fund to fall back on if this all doesn't work out, (seems like the people running this protest might) but I don't.

[-] 1 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

See. That's the thing. The trust fund some few have doesn't make them lucky and it doesnt mean they can quench their fundamental thirst for a community. Why else would people who have some wealth be involved in occupy? It's because they've been down that road and they see it's a dead end.

Anyway, you're only talking about .000001 % of Occupy. The rest are just like you and end, a few weeks, a few months away from poverty if we experience some type of hardship. Another world is possible. This place doesn't need to be so shallow and harsh. We can do this elf. We can live it.

[-] 0 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

Well many are NOT rebellious. There is some truth to that. They mirror our society at large. All who are comfortable don't acknowledge the problems and won't rebel.

I submit many are rebellious. (Occupy owes much to millennials). because more & more are NOT comfortable, and are acknowledging the economic inequities.

So for us the challenge is convincing more & more comfortable Americans (of all ages) to acknowledge the real economic inequities we all face.

They must be convinced that if they do not act these inequities will creep up and affect them next. Fear is such a powerful tool. It is the current tactic used (dishonestly) to get support for waging war/rights violations & to push economic policies that hurt the 99%.

We must recognize the power of fear and use it (honestly) to make the comfortable aware.

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[-] 2 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

I think you're right. Millennials are a diverse group that is highly intelligent and quickly awakening. I agree they are the reason Occupy Wall St. rose from nothing in a matter of weeks around the world. I also agree with the fact that some of them were sheltered and comfortable and bought into the system early on but they're sure seeing it for what it is loud and clear now.

We owe them everything and our future rests with them. We have to do everything we can to help them rise. We also need to listen to what they say. They know a lot we don't and can help lead us to the nonviolent revolutionary transformation we never quite figured out how to provoke.

[-] 1 points by elf3 (3102) 1 year ago

as soon as their loans are forgiven - they are gone...faster than they can spell "I'm more successful and smarter than you and I have prettier ugg boots too and he who gets the most toys and free ride first .....wins"!!!!

[-] 1 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

You're too focused on a tiny percent of the millennials. You gotta get out and about man. You'll meet people who will wake you up to the reality that every generation has their assholes and slackers, their self centered bastards and good folks, their couch slugs and their activists, their materialists and their spiritualists. We gotta stop "Descartes-ing" (dividing things up artificially and then believing the divisions are real. They aren't. Some of the problem is the way you and I and most of us look at the world. Check this out: a completely different solution http://occupywallst.org/forum/new-view-why-gun-control-peace-treaties-campaign-f/

[-] 0 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

It is true as in every age group that many millennials are uninterested, but enough are.

Enough to get our movement going, and the young are always willing to risk more than the established older workers already saddled with the enslavement of debt.

Our only hope is the young. They have done their part. They continue to. It is up to us to raise them up, support their efforts, join them, expand all age groups involvement.

THEY are the courageous heroes that have changed the course of American history. THEY have yanked the agenda from the greedy, selfish, 1% corp puppettea party and set us on the right course change.

Those nattering nabobs of negativism (OTP) must be challenged denounced, & ridiculed, if they choose to personally attack our young heroes.

I certainly won't allow some secret anti 99% shill attack the leaders of this great progressive movement.

[-] 3 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

Uniting is the key. Chris Hedges is right. We don't have time to waste. We need to unite and win!

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[-] 1 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

I think it would help us grow the movement if, in addition to diagnosing what's wrong with the current state of affairs, we also described solutions and outlined our vision for what this world would be like if we implemented thoe solutions. In order to motivate people to do more than watch from a distance, we're going to have to MOVE THEM with powerful solutions and vision. I think we need to divide our time a little more equally on those fronts.

Obviously, we also need to spend time on nonviolent direct action which is the single most powerful way to raise awareness ( WE HAVE THE POWER (using direct action and web in tandem):  http://occupywallst.org/forum/we-dont-see-the-power-we-have-in-our-hands-to-tran/

The Emperor and his Clothes: HOW ONE PERSON RAISING THEIR VOICE TO SPEAK THE TRUTH CAN MAKE A REAL DIFFERENCE -- the tenor of the times---   http://occupywallst.org/forum/we-have-the-power-to-turn-this-world-around-this-o/ )

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[-] 1 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

GREAT POINT!!!!! Excellent. Yes. Let's do more of that -- mixed in with the positive vision too. If all we do is depress people with the truth, they'll ignore it. I think the recipe is 30 minutes of solution and positive vision of what future holds if we implements those solutions for every 30 minutes of diagnosing problems.

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[-] 1 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

Excellent point. I think you're absolutely right. People are hungry for solutions and if you even alluded to them in a very brief way, we could each perhaps get some people interested in learning more. We could also do this on a mass scale with crowd sourced commercials on the web and TV. We ought to convey the idea that there may be a better way and communicate that, if we would implement it, we could have a world that is completely different. If we could begin to lay out some plausible action steps and also a clear vision for where those action steps might lead, we can really begin to build an even larger base of support. I think you're right though that it has to begin with something short.

I would add that Fawkesnews has awakened me to the fact that just listening can help. The reason for this is that when someone begins to describe that the emperor has no clothes, and they see you listening, they get a chance to feel what it's like to speak the truth out loud. At first this may seem to be very minor. But once you think about it, you really begin to realize the power of this. Once people feel confident in speaking out loud that in turn makes other people feel more confident to do the same. This can bring with it a virtuous cycle and once we enter that virtuous cycle, there's no fucking stopping us.

I think Fawkesnews said it pretty plainly, when he or she said that , once everyone feels comfortable speaking up, all the rest will be irrelevant. The rest will just be hard work and details from that point forward.

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[-] 1 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

Onward and upward.

[-] 1 points by elf3 (3102) 1 year ago

hmmm - yes today's young people are tomorrow's leaders - "our heroes, raise them up, question not their authority or sincerity AND prepare them for a future knowing they are the best and by doing what's best for themselves, then surely it will benefit us all" with a half-hearted cheer for the working class and poor folks (Remind you of Congress by chance?) When I see the anger, when I see true concern for others above self, when I see a return to the original point of Occupy, when I see they have a stake. maybe I'll back them, until then I think scrutiny is appropriate. Something's wrong with this movement, and I think it may be the people involved.

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[-] 1 points by elf3 (3102) 1 year ago

well now at least you displaying the full fabric of your leadership - cursery and hate - at least you could direct some of that toward Wall Street - and I'd think we had a partial break through

[-] 1 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 1 year ago

You hit the nail on the head with that comment VQag.

~Odin~

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[-] 1 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 1 year ago

Thanks, Happy New Year to you too.

[-] 1 points by elf3 (3102) 1 year ago

If they have to be convinced they are not there with you - sorry VQkag2 - sorry to disappoint you but the answer for the problems for this movement are staring you in the face. You shouldn't have to hunt for the dis-enfranchised -there are plenty of people out here but they obviously don't feel represented by the people running this thing. It reeks of disconnection (perhaps elitism? I don't really know) . another ism for you i know you hate that...classis..mmm - I won't upset you with that one I know it may put you over the edge.

[-] 2 points by OTP (-203) from Tampa, FL 1 year ago

Numbers are shell of what they were, and it needs to be figured out exactly why, by the ones who actually organized it, that is.

My thoughts:

  • Massive disorganization. All young people. the older organizers sat on their asses and watched the youth struggle through even the most basic of steps. Which was a great learning experience for all involved, but ultitmately a major setback.

  • "We arent political." Granted, this has waned, but at the beginning this rabid stance was crucial in driving away gamechanging organizers

  • "Must have a camp". Anyone who slept out knows its a drain. When the focus becomes more on the park than on the message, then the park is the message and therefore those who are curious will be discouraged. Keep a park. Great. Dont get married to it.

[-] -1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

OWS has been very successful! You all are looking for reasons why we failed, because you are ant OWS.

You just want an excuse to run us down.

You are wrong! We are changing the world, after only 1 year we have made slow progress and will grow and improve.

much to your chagrin I'm sure.

[-] 1 points by OTP (-203) from Tampa, FL 1 year ago

There's a difference between being a success (an opinion) vs growing (hard numbers). If you cant distiguish between those two then perhaps you need to go back to school and get an education. No one is arguing about the successes. The discussion is on what went wrong to go from massive amounts of people to just a shred.

Confused again? God you are a pain in the ass of everyone on this board.

[-] 0 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

It ain't gone to "a shred"!!

I disagree!! And I ain't confused, I know exactly what you and you cohorts are doing. Your criticisms are a weak attempt to put us down, slow us up.

We ARE changing the world, We MUST grow of course. We haven't failed in that effort, we are affected by the realities of large movements, & the opposition that is putting us down, unfailry criticising us, attaching unrealistic measurments.

You might be confused with that although I think you understand, I thinkn it is exactly what you are attempting.

My focus is on our success and building on it. You create phony negatives and weakly attempt to malign and beat us down.!

[Deleted]

[-] 2 points by OTP (-203) from Tampa, FL 1 year ago

Denying flaws is doing more harm than good. You simply dont understand the underlying platform and the flaws well enough to discuss it.

So please stop calling me a "right wing piece of shit" because some of us would like to make some improvements.

[-] -1 points by beautifulworld (22137) 1 year ago

I think the age group that we actually might be able to reach in larger numbers are just a bit younger than the millennials. I think the kids that are in high school and the early years of college today are the group to focus on. These kids have grown up during their later teen years in the throws of the great recession. They understand it better than the millennials, they learned about it in school and they lived it during their most formative years.

And, much gratitude to all the millennials who camped out all over this country for Occupy. They are awesome, as well, and all of these ideas are generalizations.

[-] 2 points by elf3 (3102) 1 year ago

I agree 100 percent on that - the kids I meet from this generation are truly purposeful beyond status and wealth...they are the hope!! my only fear is they will be what gen-xers are to the boomers and be taken over by the Millennials. Not saying they are all this way but they become generalizations when enough of them behave in a similar manner that it can be observed and recognized by a large percentage of the population.

[-] 2 points by beautifulworld (22137) 1 year ago

I'm glad you agree, elf. :) I personally know a few who are looking to change the world. They give me inspiration and keep me going, and if we can reach them with the knowledge that we have perhaps we can prevent them from becoming apathetic, and then, maybe they really can change the world.

[-] 2 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

Excellent point. I hadn't thought of that next next generation. . .

[-] 1 points by grapes (3551) 1 year ago

What I worry about is whether this group was shielded by their parents from the stark reality that afflicted so many other people. I remember that when I was their age, I did not really care much about economics because I did not even have that much money to manage and once I was in college, I was up to my eyeballs with the learning and earning. I did not have the consciousness that all of that money and credit were subject to manipulations until years later. My parents cocooned me from the shocks but it also meant that I did not awaken.

[-] 2 points by beautifulworld (22137) 1 year ago

I think it has gotten bad enough that shielding kids from our economic realities has become nearly impossible. That is why I think the younger kids have eyes wide open. You are definitely right, though, that parents try to shield their kids from these realities taking out more and more loans, for instance, in order to keep up with the Joneses. It's pretty pathetic.

[-] 2 points by grapes (3551) 1 year ago

Yes, after thirty-plus years of financial and military steroid administration, it has become really hard to cocoon anyone and the "liver cancer" has struck. Even our federal government was grappling with how to defuse the "debt bomb" in emergency sessions of the Congress and secret discussions with the White House.

[-] 0 points by DKAtoday (23961) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

These age groups you speak of are or should be ripe to see positive change. The younger should be ripe to sow positive outlooks for treating each other. More so then the older kids who have been subjected to the ills of society longer. Both groups are susceptible to positive thoughts and actions though. As are grown adults - if the positive thoughts and actions can be shown to actually be positive.

[-] 2 points by beautifulworld (22137) 1 year ago

If young people don't take action there will be nothing left for them. I think they are starting to realize this.

[-] 0 points by DKAtoday (23961) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

Yes and so some are looking for the correct actions to take and to get involved with - while others need to find them-self - as many like many of us before them - have opted out in various ways. I believe that this is where OWS/Occupy fills a great hole in pointing out what needs to be addressed and that there is hope for all to have a healthy future in working together.

[-] 2 points by beautifulworld (22137) 1 year ago

True. They need the knowledge first and then an outlet for action. Occupy provides both.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (23961) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

Better yet while providing no targets for attackers of the movements for a better healthier world for all. How frustrating for the assholes - Hey?