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Forum Post: A message for liberals and Democrats

Posted 7 months ago on Jan. 17, 2014, 10:48 p.m. EST by redandproud (17)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

This is a message to all the people who call themselves liberals or still put their faith in the Democratic Party.

All major change that has ever been achieved has been achieved by radicals.

Radical is not a dirty word. Radical does not have to mean violent. Radical means that you understand that the cause of social ills today is systematic. It is not the fault of a few greedy people or companies; it's a problem with the way the economy works in general. Raising taxes and creating a few silly programs won't fix these problems.

Capitalism doesn't need to be "regulated" or "kept in check". It needs to be abolished altogether. Period. Human beings have been creative and productive long before capitalism and will be long after it.

BTW I am NOT saying we need to "work for free" or be angels or mega-altruists. It's out of self-interest, it's IN THE SELF-INTEREST OF THE WORKER, that we must support a society free of the insanity of capitalism.

I'm a proud socialist and I think the Marxist method and Marxist thought are being proved correct now in this period of crisis. We socialists and communists were a major force before WW2, involved in pretty much every major labor struggle or anti-racist struggle. Don't be afraid to call yourself a "radical".

Alice Paul of the NWP, the woman who was sent to prison for protesting for women's suffrage, and who was forcefed and tortured even though President Wilson was fully aware of what was happening, was a RADICAL. The abolitionists of the antebellum United States were RADICALS.

32 Comments

32 Comments


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[-] 4 points by redandproud (17) 7 months ago

In no other country in the world would the Democratic Party, an obviously status-quo, bourgeois party, be considered "leftist"

[-] 2 points by flip (6872) 7 months ago

I agree with much of what you say but i wonder how helpful this line is. we need concrete action and concrete steps that can be taken now. ranting about the evils of capitalism and advocating communism will alienate the people that we need to reach to make real change. we have a long way to go to get to a just society (whether that is capitalist or communist). what we need to focus on are the small steps needed to get started down that road.

[-] 1 points by redandproud (17) 7 months ago

Agreed, I believe in concrete steps. Kinda like the election of Sawant to the Seattle City Council. We need to shift from the Democratic Party to electoral socialist parties, which will set the stage for workers' empowerment.

[-] 2 points by RadicalsUnite (94) 7 months ago

Theres plenty of countries out there that consider corporate based parties or secs leftist, because thats what they are told to think.

[-] 1 points by redandproud (17) 7 months ago

I guess what I mean to say is that they are not really leftists by conventional standards. "The left" has almost always referred to the radical left. In some countries if you say you're a leftist, it's understood that you're a radical.

[-] 1 points by RadicalsUnite (94) 7 months ago

It is, its all part of defining the words here via the media. Anarchy meaning Chaos as the most obvious one.

[-] 1 points by redandproud (17) 7 months ago

Very true.

[-] 2 points by elf3 (2362) 7 months ago

Here's some deregulation for you....bye bye net neutrality...hope you don't have an internet business or enjoy posting to political websites...poof !

[-] 0 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 7 months ago

Human beings have been creative and productive long before capitalism and will be long after it.

+1

[-] 0 points by shoozTroll (17632) 7 months ago

That was an incredibly idiotic, ill informed and insulting message.

Why would you send such a message?

You don't like them?

Besides, you show a complete ignorance of radicals.

[-] 2 points by redandproud (17) 7 months ago

Are you talking to me?

[-] 0 points by shoozTroll (17632) 7 months ago

If you're willing to answer.

Go ahead and give it a try.

[-] 2 points by redandproud (17) 7 months ago

What do you mean "willing to answer"? You didn't specify your grievances. I don't know why you're upset, so I have nothing to respond to.

[-] 0 points by shoozTroll (17632) 7 months ago

Look for sentences with one of these at the end. (?)

Those are questions. I'm not upset in the least.

It would seem, by the substance of your posting, that it's you who is upset.

Why else would you post such a thread?

Why else would you aim it at only one faction?

You are angry. I get it. I'm angry too.

But all the REAL damage has been done and is still being done by right wing factions.

Radicals, as a matter of fact.

Or are you so arrogant as to believe that only YOU are a radical?

[-] 1 points by redandproud (17) 7 months ago

By "Radical" I mean radical left, aka socialists and communists and anarchists.

Liberals and Democrats are bourgeois reformists. Their objective is not the abolition of capitalism. Thus, they are ultimately enemies of the working-class. The danger with them, however, is that their policies pacify working class unrest. Concessions aren't worth it IMO

Capitalists are bad whether they're "left" wing or right wing. IMO Democrats and liberals are right-leaning, so your point is irrelevant.

[-] 0 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 7 months ago
[-] 0 points by shoozTroll (17632) 7 months ago

Then you don't realize, that the Koch's are extreme "radicals".

I suppose that's why you think all the wrong people are your enemies.

What do you think about Koch style libe(R)tarians?

[-] 2 points by redandproud (17) 7 months ago

I'm not using "radical" as a word that is a synonym for "extreme".

In mathematics, a radical is the square root symbol. Somebody who is a radical believes in change at the root, i.e. fundamental change. Historically, "radicals" have always been leftist anti-capitalists.

We can replace the word "radical" if you like, but I don't see the point. Anyways, liberals and Democrats are not radicals and do not believe in fundamental change since they preserve the capitalist system.

[-] 0 points by shoozTroll (17632) 7 months ago

So if they are not radicals, what do you consider libe(R)tarians, like the Koch's?

I find their actions to be VERY radical.

[-] -2 points by redandproud (17) 7 months ago

They are extremists, yes, but not radicals, because they don't seek fundamental social change.

If you prefer I use a different word, I can do that. Like socialist, anarchist, or communist. Does that make you happy?

[-] 0 points by shoozTroll (17632) 7 months ago

What's happening in Michigan, is extremely radical and funded at least in part by the libe(R)tarian Koch brothers.

http://occupywallst.org/forum/why-michigan-matters/

very extreme and VERY radical. Indeed, creating fundamental changes in society at large.

Verifiable tyranny.

[-] 0 points by redandproud (17) 7 months ago

No, it isn't radical because radical refers to LEFTISTS only. We're just arguing about words, now. Fine, call it whatever you want, but the point is the Democrats are CAPITALISTS and workers should support SOCIALISM so Democrats are the enemies of workers.

[-] 0 points by shoozTroll (17632) 7 months ago

You're talking to a union man here.

A Wobbly.

Radical extremism is NOT limited only to left wing politics.

No matter how far left.

It is naive to think so.

Why do you keep avoiding my direct questions to you?

Is it that you think that no one you consider a liberal, should support OWS?

Are you aware of how conditions in Michigan came to be?

[-] 0 points by redandproud (17) 7 months ago

Well when I said "radical" I mean only radical leftists. Got it? We've been over this several times.

Liberals should not be involved with OWS because liberals support the preservation of capitalism, and capitalism is inherently unstable and destructive. So liberals could not possibly support the goals of OWS without opposing capitalism.

[-] 0 points by shoozTroll (17632) 7 months ago

I get what you're saying.

The rest of the World doesn't.

Radical is NOT limited to the left.

It just isn't.

What you are asking for, is the death of this movement.

I reject your proposition.

[-] -1 points by go4broke (120) 7 months ago

"Liberals should not be involved with OWS..." (??)

Many of today's liberals and even moderates will become tomorrow's radicals as they begin to understand how rotten our political and economic system have become.

Especially when they see how resistant the corrupt elite are to having a more just system.

[-] 0 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 7 months ago

Radical extremism

is that an oxymoron

at the root

on the edge

[-] 0 points by shoozTroll (17632) 7 months ago

No.

Redundant perhaps, but not an oxymoron.

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[-] 0 points by go4broke (120) 7 months ago

I agree. Although they never got the systemic change they wanted, it was the socialists, communists and the anarchists that were most responsible for the major reforms in the New Deal.

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[-] 2 points by RadicalsUnite (94) 7 months ago

Are you a radical? Why am I removed from the conversation?

[-] 0 points by shoozTroll (17632) 7 months ago

What's it too ya?

If you're writing a book, you can leave that part out.

How about answering my questions now?

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[-] -1 points by tabletennis (77) from New York, NY 6 months ago

Great post!