Forum Post: 620,000 dead Americans - was it worth it?
Posted 12 years ago on March 12, 2012, 8:42 p.m. EST by bensdad
(8977)
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The price paid to keep states like these in the Union?
Alabuma - 14% of republicans believe Obama is a Christian
Missishitti - 12% of republiclans believe Obama is a Christian
less than a quarter believe in evolution
please tell rick perry, when texas goes - take these Neanderthals with him
This post reveals you to be as ignorant as the neanderthals you claim you are so superior to. In fact let me educate you.
There are reasons why the south is the way it is and most of them have to do with outside intrests.The south for the most part at least since the Civil War has been one of the poorer areas of the country. (Bishaw, Macartney) The Appalachian region and the Mississippi delta region are probably the two worst areas of the country for poverty and both rest in the south. Its almost as if there is a perverse competition that goes on between the two areas for which is the most destitute and marginalized. It’s true that these regions do not account for the whole of the south and some areas of the south are quite wealthy, but even when you exclude them from the map the south still marks high in poverty. I think its best to mention these regions because they give a good look at the people of the south culturally and economically.
First I will begin with the region that my family hails from, Appalachia. The largely Caucasian population of Central Appalachia has three times above the national poverty rate and maybe has the shortest lifespans out of any where in the country. According to a doctor mentioned in a 2009 ABC 20/20 report by the name of Dr. Anant Chandel, who was born and raised in India and works with a community activist treating the financially destitute population of Mud Creek, KY "It's hard to believe but yes… people are poorer in this part of the country than where I was in India". The area is racked with prescription drug abuse, cancer, chronic depression and toothlessness. (Keturah Gray) The only two means of income for many families is to either work in the coalmines or enter into the prescription pill black market. The reasons behind this grinding level of poverty could be described as one of limited economic opportunities, insufficient decent housing, exploitation by outside forces and poor public schools. Like many resource rich regions around the world the people of Appalachia have been exploited for the coal that resides in the mountains. Appalachia supplies the whole country with the coal that fires the power plants to give others electricity. Mining companies, big coal and railroad companies all glean billions of dollars from the mountains and the people that live there see almost none of it. It’s no wonder that many describe the culture of the region as insular, clannish and distrustful of outsiders.
The Mississippi delta is a region that still very much lives in the shadow of slavery and is known as one of the poorest areas of the country. Jesse Jackson once described it as the Ethiopia of the United States. The area’s economic struggles have been associated to its history of enslavement of the majority black population, which include racial segregation of public educational institutions, the concentration of wealth into the hands of the white minority, Jim Crow laws, and the political disenfranchisement of the black population, which is the majority of the region. Nearly 40 percent of the residents of the delta live in public housing, and the high school dropout rate is almost 50 percent as of 1997. The crushing poverty in the Delta disproportionally affects the region’s black residents more so than its white inhabitants, with about 54.9 percent of the black population living below the poverty line, according to 1990 statistics. These statistics are old but keep in mind that they were taken years before the recession of 2008, so one would imagine that conditions have probably gotten worse since the 90’s. According to one man interviewed by Mcclatchy news in a 2010 report “I can't help but think that my fate was sealed the day I was born in Midnight, Mississippi” a small and dying town in the delta (Mcclatchy). In another report by the Christian Science monitor on the prospects of the population after an earthquake like the one that struck the region in 1811 with such force that it reversed the flow of the Mississippi river, the following was observed, “In many areas, people still live in shanties. Healthcare is sparse. Even clean water is scarce in some places. Often, public and private buildings are decades old and fragile. They have yet to be retrofitted or strengthened. Hundreds of towns could see severe structural damage, and large segments of the population displaced”. According to the report many geologists believe that the prospect of another major earthquake is very possible in the next 50 years, which could result in a situation reminiscent of Haiti in 2009. The major industry in the region is still to this day cotton and once employed much of the population after the end of slavery. However in recent years the industry has been mechanized and the need for labor has been greatly reduced. The industry that is the second greatest employer is the catfish industry, which supplies the country with 75% of its catfish that are sold in restaurants and eaten at dinner tables. Many of the people that work in the industry have reported working 10 to 12 hours a day, six days a week and only bringing home 160$ at the end of it. Although it is a small enterprise when compared to the billions of dollars big coal extracts from Appalachia it does account for a billion dollars in sales for the whole region (about 275 million in Mississippi alone) a year and again just like the people in the Appalachian mountains the people of the Mississippi delta see almost no benefit from the enterprise. Much like the people in Appalachia the conditions make the people of the south particularly vulnerable to propaganda and disinformation. Which is just the kind of people that this movment was started for.
So next time you want to disparidge an entire region of the country mabey you should look at wall street or washington dc. These are the places that shape policy. Not the impoverished and uneducated inhabitants of the delta region.
Fair enough, but then answer this question: If I am to go by your description of the region, the people of the Deep South are some of the poorest in the country. These are the parts of the country that weren't really brought out of the Third World until after the Great Depression and World War II, and if I am to take Dr. Chandel at his word then that transition isn't even full or complete. Basically, they comprise the demographic most helped by strong social safety nets, investments in national infrastructure, and so on.
Why, then, is the Deep South (and a good chunk of the Southwest) one of the most staunchly Republican parts of the country? I can at least make sense of the evangelical part of all this (when there's nothing in this life for you then all of a sudden the contents of the next one become a lot more important), but not the economics. This is the party that derides unions as thugs and extortionists, blames the poor for their plight, and is increasingly tending toward economic Darwinism as ugly as the social Darwinism of a century ago. This is the party that can find a million better things to do with its money than feed the hungry and clothe the naked, so why the fuck does the one region of the USA chock full of the hungry and the naked remain such a bastion of Republicanism?
The Nixonian strategy of the angry (and racist and ignorant) white guy sealed the end of The Party Of Lincoln and we got the party of winkin' (racist code). At least when the South was solid Democrat it was part of what was called the New Deal Coalition.
I don’t think you need to start with the naming calling, and you can’t “begin” in the third paragraph, I’m no cop but come on.
A lot of solid info though, I would add that many people do not realize that Welfare was made possible by the photos of poor white people in Appalachia, this is the area I am from as well.
I had friends without running water living on dirt floor; I felt so lucky to have running water.
I also had a friend whose dad had an office where there were many pictures of him with different Presidents.
I don't think it's a good idea to antagonize entire swaths of the country but if any swath deserves it, it's Dixie, baby. One of my favorite ironies is the impact the policies of libertarian bigots like Rand Paul would have on regressive states like AL, MS, KY, GA, SC, etc. Eliminating the income tax and all the social services it pays for would turn those states into ghost towns without two nickels to rub together in no time.
"The Past is never dead, if fact it isn't even past." -William Faulkner.
Bensdad - I have agreed with almost all of your posts and comments, but here I feel I must present certain objections. It is clear to me that much of the resistence in the South to the progressive world view is the still festering wound of the Cilvil War.
My sympathies in that war are for the cause of the North, due to the use of mostly Black slaves that were the foundation their economy, and I think this was a moral issue that justfied even such a terrible slaughter as the Civil War.
(This is an asside, and perhaps a controversial one, but I have never heard a Black person acknowledge the sacrifise of hundreds of thousands of whites to the cause of releasing another race from a slavery that benefitted themselves. In fact I think that was almost unpresidented in human history, other than perhaps the Egyptians liberation of the Jews thousands of years ago.)
There are two sides to every story, and we cannot see that struggle, or the enduring legacy of that struggle as absolutely black and white issues For one thing, to do so would be to make the mistake of discounting the individuality of human beings. There were many in The South, including Robert E. Lee, who opposed slavery but could simply not accept the betrayal of their countymen, and switch sides. In hindsight that, in the case particularly of Lee, was tragic because if he had switched sides the war would have been over in short order, and the resulting legacy of bitterness might have been mitigated..
Before the war the South had an aristocratic heritage that valued education and gentility, but the brutality of the war; the way the South was burned and laid waste, set them back into a state of poverty and desperation that went on for a century, and in many places goes on to this day. So in some sense the the divide we now expierence is the result of the ferocious and truely viscious subjegation of a proud people.
In short, we all share the blame for the consequences of that brutal and prolonged war and subsequent repression. In the years following the war, the infant mortality rates among Southern whites reached tragic and edpidemic proportions, and states like Mississippi and Alabama have yet to fully recover from that sweeping decimation.
Is it possible that under those circumstances their would not be a lasting hatred for the ideas and the goals of their suppressors?
The nation has yet to heal from that war, and in spite of my conviction that the North was in the right, I think too many of us turn a blind eye to the continued impoverishment, and the at least subconscious sense of humiliation and rage in places like Mississippi and Alabama. Perhaps they would become more reasonable if we showed them that we recongnize and sympathize with their long suffering after that war, and took active steps to help them and acknowledge there century-plus years of repression. Our refusal to acknowledge this widens the divide, and taints us with a lack of willingness to acceot that we are all human, and that none of us are unguilty, or beyond redemption.
The hatred must end, and at this point, 152 years after that war, I believe the duty to reach out for common ground and mutual betterment lies at least as much with us as it does with them.
This "red state - blue state" hatred must end, or we may be bound to repeat that war, in much more bloody and destrutive terms that even that of 1861-1865.
Great- I strongly - VERY STRONGLY - agree that much of the blame for our southern mess can be placed directly with Booth.
Lincoln wanted a reconcilliation - Stanton and Johnson did not.
But enough is enough.
How many years after 1781 did America & England have good relations?
Enough is enough.
Bigotry, ignorace, stupidity, hatred are all flourishing in the south.
Enough is enough,
Barak Obama is a Muslim ?
Enough is enough,
Romney is not a Christian?
If the Irish Protestants & Catholics can now accept each other, why cant the south acknowledge that their ancestors' desire to own human beings caused the tragedy of 620,000 dead Americans, and the KKK, and that they LOST?
Enough is enough,
We don't need to fly the csa flag
Enough is enough,
NOW- it is the southern religious leaders and politicians who continue to throw salt in the wounds - and the lemmings who believe the world is 6000 years old and Obama is a Muslim
Enough is enough !
I realize what you are saying, and agree with you on a logical level, but if human beings were essentially logical we wouldn't be in this mess. There is some kind of wound festering in our society, and I don't know how to heal that wound. I will tell you though, that on a personal level, most Southerners I have met are very hospitable, courtious, and extermely generous on an personal level, much more so than most people I have known from New York or New Jersey. (please realize that I have full admiration for many New Yorkers) it's just a cultural thing that should be acknowledged.
Yet on the whole, as you say, the majority of Southerners seem completely misguided socially and politically. I am in complete agreement with you there; so misguided in fact that it truely seems to border on the insane.
My question is why? They are human beings. What drives humans into such a wreakless state? They are not the first or the last to be driven into such a state of hatred and resentment.
We must ask the question of why, and I realise that the anger from the repression of Sotherners has been consciously misdirected towards their long ago antagonists, and away from their true oppressors; the oppressors of Americans in general.
I believe that they are among the greatest vicims of the 1%; who misdirect their anger towards the divisons of the past that are no longer relevent, through the various influences of the media, ridged social control, of propoganda, of the church, and of the remnants of the KKK.
In other words they are trapped by their innability to free themselves from the past, and from the mental cage that has been thrust upon them, and that they have thrust upon themselves.
You are right to say that their politics are misguided, there religion intolerant, and their world-view insular. But we would be better off going down their and facing their guns een, to show that we care about them as human beings and fellow Americans, than to further fuel this hatred,.
Enough is enough I say too. Enough is enough of this hatred.
Are you really serious with this? You think that black people should acknowledge the sacrifice of the civil war?
No, not really. I don't think I would if I was black. I'm half Irish, and the Irish have been oppressed since Julius Caesar. Who should I hate most, the Romans, the Franks, The Ostrogoths, the Vandals, the Visigoths, The Angles, the Saxons, or the English, to list but a few? It's just an interesting question to me, because I don't exactly recall any of those people going to war for the liberation of the Celts, and where does all that hatred really lead us anyway, but to further hatred and bloodshed?
I'm just curious what you think about that.
PS The hell of it is that I really admire Julius Caesar, even though he wiped out the Celts, slaughtered a hundred thousand of the cream of their warriors, who were my ancestors, and who posesed Fance , the most beautiful land in the world, which they roamed in and lived in freely. This is the reality of the human expierence. The question is can we change it? If so, then change starts with you and me.
Will you go on hating me because of what some of my great great great great great great great grandfathers did, or will you accept my atonement, and complete reversal of mind from those people who I can no longer even relate to or understand?
White people are not all the same, and it would be a great step forward for blacks to see this, and nt stay entrenched in their indiscriminate hatred and mistrust.
And nothing of value would be lost when those states are gone.
Except the union.
Unlike most of those from the south, I get what you’re saying and it hurts, in both ways
Demian gives a good response so I won’t go that way, just let me say that all those people know Romney’s no Christian either.
well this is a horrible post
Polemics, polemics... arrogant polemics.
Obama is a Muslim (apparently) and Romney is a Mormon (apparently), but it makes no difference - in America even the Atheist is Christianized; we are unique to world, and our views have served to temper governance everywhere.
Do you want to know why the South hates the North? It's because of our arrogance, our indignant self-righteousness, voiced as the polemics of pseudo-intellectuals.
A brief history for you: the Abolitionist movement began in Ma Bay in the early 1640s; it found a voice in our Churches here in the early 1800s - the free time afforded by industrialization (the manufacture of cloth in particular) empowered the women of our Victorian era to organize in churches to address community affairs; they became "proactive."
Slavery had nothing to with men of the South - the slave trade had been in existence for hundreds of years prior to Virginia.
And Abolitionism had nothing to do with men of the North - it was our WOMEN who forced men to arms, and we died by the millions; for what?
To send a message to the world they will not heed...
BE smart, EDUCATE yourselves about the pressing issues at w w w d o r m a n t i d e a s c o m instead of bickering with side issues that are way to little way to late: Like the FEDERAL CRIMINAL BANK that prints counterfit money... removing the "...redeemable in silver upon demand..." from the paper money... and so much more... go tot he web site mentioned below and educate yourself, it is much bigger than the real estate fraud. MOST IMPORTANT, press your State to exercise the 9th and 10th amendments NULLIFICATION of unconstitutional legislation by claiming Sovereignty. 38 States have filed bills to claim Sovereignty. One of the best compilation of the current events is at: w w w d o r m a n t i d e a s c o m. It puts everything that is currently happening in a connect the dots approach that spells it all out. It put everyone on the same page, ready to answer any questions from the troll who come to interview you on the streets to debunk you as idiots and post it on the NET to embarrass you.
And where does the title of this post come from? What dead americans?
The Civil War? Ya think?
Well in that case being that my wife is black then yeah it was worth it.
I agree that it was worth it, but we must still remember and respect the enormity of the sacrifice. I am glad to hear your wife is black, because that more than anything can finally heal these divides.
who cares if someone is a christian? Id vote for a mormon before Id vote for a christian.
Hey, those are great states, I'm from the South and will not stand for this kind of badmouthing.
No! Everyone in those states is bad because I disagree with some of the people in them!
And if you disagree with any, thou shalt hate them all.
WTF!
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Good idea. If we divide into North and South we can perhaps have happier nations.
Divison troll.
Shut up stupid. And I thought you wern't going to respond to my posts anymore. Go away.
This isn't your post.
I don't comment on any troll post.
Unless I'm ask by someone to comment then out of respect to them.
I'm glad to see your doing your part Gypsy, we can spend our time passing info and building truthful talking points, which will destory their lies.
Always look for your stuff, and bens, but this one was tough.
It was tough to talk about this, perhaps the toughest thing I have tried to address here. I am dismayed and frankly alarmed by the the "red/blue state division in this country. I tend to gravitate to these really sore points, because I feel that those are the areas that most desperately need to be healed, if we are to come together and create a better world.
I don't mind telling you that it is really painful in a way, but I believe our general oppressors use these festering wounds to divide us and to conquer us, and that the division of our nation serves their interets.
An aside: Those who would throw rocks at expensive cars, or advocate antagonizing those in upper-middle-class neighborhoods miss the point entirely, and do our cause an injustice. There are perhaps 2,200 people that are in control of the world, and who collude in ratcheting us all, including the upper middle class, dowm to slavery.
Slavery is no longer an issue of black and white, it is a universal issue, and we must be united against it.
It is in large part wanting to avoid the rock throwing that I hope we can fix this problem of the very top and everyone else. My son told me long ago that he is a liberal because he doesn’t want to see the guillotine return. If we can’t fix this through the system, hopefully by changing that system entirely as far as funding goes. Then violence becomes the danger, and that path would be terrible indeed.
why are you so worried about what other people's beliefs are. you have yours good job. other people arent aloud to have their own beliefs?
people who "believed" in witches burned them
people who "believed" Africans were beasts hung them
people who "believed" Jews were vermin gassed them
so we arent aloud to have beliefs, well different beliefs of yours?
I never said ALL southerners were bad
I just think America might want to reconsider the benefits of rick perry's offer
and I could say people who believe lies are stupid or ignorant -
but you knew that already -
or did you?
I'd certainly move there if they did secede (thanks)..... and you make it sound like a state does not have the right to do so. Wrong.
10 states have indeed declared their 10th amendment sovereignty rights and 40 more should.
you do know how to read ?
"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."
Where does the word "succeed" or "secede" appear?
you are an Rs
"I just think America might want to reconsider the benefits of rick perry's offer........." your inference is that the USA has any control over it just like A Lincoln was bent on showing them he did.
The people who ratified that particular Constitution, which clearly is not what is the highest law of the land today, have been dead for many years.
The DC Federal Government has breached it's end of that deal many years ago as well, and in case you are in a stoned stupor or asleep, continue to do so daily.
The people have not ratified what governs DC today, and if so, it's been by unknowing implied consent.
Time for a new and real deal.
Try pitching that argument in a court of law... the SCOTUS in particular. How come no one has taken this argument to any Federal Court?
We'll just have to see what happens in the days to come.......
There have been some very interesting SCOTUS rulings on the core of this and several ancillary points. Some recent and modern, many prior to WWII.
Not being aware of what has happened does not mean it hasn't.
The US Constitution created the Union of States, under a Federal Government. Ratification of the Constitution is acceptance of this fact.
There are no provisions to 'unratify'. There are no clauses to leave. The 10th Amendment reads:
"The powers not delegated to the Federal government by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."
It doesn't state: "Each state retains its sovereignty, freedom, and independence.."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JxYDnYgQ5MQ
which one?
Which one? Meaning what... which document, which court?
You need to listen to it several times and closely. He answers which one and what. I suggest you look back, dig deep, at several other very candid disclosures of this scholar on this very subject.
He's not doing anything in violation of DC's governing document.
Whodathunkit?
I gave it several good listens. Reference is made to the 'original' constitution, that first version with 10 amendments that was written in 1789.
That first version was recognized by the founders as imperfect and a mechanism was left to address issues with it when they came up, the amendment process. So legally the Constitution that matters is the most current version.
I see more than anything not the constitution being our problems, but the abuses rendered by the Supreme Court in interpretations, particularly of the 1st and 14th amendments. Everybody has their own beefs with interpretation - you the 10th amendment.
So I don't understand what you are really trying to say, as I believe the document is imperfect and was designed for change.
People who "believed" all Mississippians are bad because of some of them
Agreed. Faulkner was a Mississippian, and the greatest American novelist. Let's not make blanket assumptions here!
No, let's do it! I like steroetyping! Would you mind lying to me about how tolerant and accepting I am so I will feel good about myself?
I type in quadraphonic. Yep, four keyboards at once.
So everyone has to believe the way you do?
You are FREE to believe Obama is a Muslim
You are FREE to believe that reagan did not commit treason
You are FREE to believe that Iraq had wmds
You are FREE to believe that bush did not lie us into a war
You are FREE to believe the earth is 6000 years old
You are FREE to believe birth control is immoral
You are FREE to believe that corporate millions cannot destroy democracy
You are FREE to believe that nixon was not a crook
You are FREE to believe that when you are dead you will get 72 virgins
You are FREE to believe that newt can change the price of gas
but God help us if people who BELIEVE these lies
control every branch of our government
........................................but - frankly - I doubt He'd waste His time
What the hell does that little tantrum have to do with my question?
Essentually everything.
A recent Rasmussen poll actually noted that 72% of Republicans believe you will receive 72 virgins only if you die in Jihad. It's scary.
Go to bed Dee.
Yanks mass murdered Native Americans so maybe those surviving descendants should rally together and exact revenge on small minded twits like you.
Well my great great grandma was a Blackfoot and her husband was a mixed White/African American that was born a slave in Tenn., I can claim as a descendant from all three sides I say "GET OVER IT".
Tennessee? The affirmative action employer state which gives black candidates twice as many points for being black as they allow token Native Americans? Yeah, that crap is right.
Yes, divide by bringing up miniscule instances, and disregard the larger question. Classic ploy of the troll
If we really wanted to be truly fair then you would be judged by what you has done, NOT who you are. The " I have a dream speech: Is a standard we do not have yet. it is a great shame on all sides that we first see the color of a person or the religion of a person long before we see them as a human or here as an American. As for me i am a heinz 57 American. Race be-damned.
So did Southerners. You forgot the "Trail of tears," and so much more.
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A bullshit title by an astroturf Occupussy
Believe me, if this nation was separated between "Blue and Red" Sates, the Red would be pleading for financial support and structural guidance from the Blue states in less than a year.