Forum Post: 2/3's of the Forbes 400 are entirely self made......how do you explain that?
Posted 12 years ago on March 14, 2012, 4:45 p.m. EST by slammersworldwillnotbecensored
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2/3's of the Forbes 400 are entirely self made......how do you explain that?
OWS says that people have no chance and that the 1% control it all, if that were true how did this 2/3's find their way into that richest of the rich group?
You see, it's about character, philosophy, extra effort, delayed gratification, delayed compensation, and continuous effort despite temporary failure.....
NOT some silver spoon, or advantage
there will always be those who do better, because they do more, for longer, and don't get bogged down by failure....and by their efforts and will eventually succeed.....
do you want to be a winner, or loser.....it's up to YOU to decide
'Good Ole Boy' Harvardites.. and Political Favors.. THAT's how the other 2/3rds got In the door to Work their Gains...
I have a Background in Printed news.. Worked in the S.F. Bay Area, I met Jobs, Woz,.. Gates, .. I know how they got their Backing to Begin the Empires.. They made the 1% wealthier as they grew.. It All Trickles down to a Few 1%'ers Giving a Leg-up-for-profits.. and now.. The Good Ole' Boys are running the Show Entirely!
No Room NOW in the Fortune 500 .. Because to allow Free Enterprise, a JUST Democracy.. would mean they would have to Share.. and Give up Gains.
.. When you are Wealthy, you are in a constant state of Fear of Losing. That Fear masks as Greed.. and becomes a form of Insanity.. It's the Impetus to all this Madness we find ourselves subjected to to this Day!
.. If you Dont agree.. Tell it to the 70% middle Class that are now Jobless.. Homes in Foreclosure, Ill from lack of Medical Attention, and Depressed to near self destruction.. or Freakin ANGRY and ready to begin a Revolution!..
Think long and hard before you say something so obtuse to so many with lives Destroyed by Greed!
great post, thanks
Thankya , thankya Very Much RAY..
posted for Your Edification.. the Above.
Just trying to find those who know what the heck is going on... then, hoping they sign this..
http://www.thepetitionsite.com/8/stop-the-corruption-on-wall-street/
and TY to all who have taken the time to make an effort.. The more Sigs we Get.. the more we get the OIG/Sec to investigate
and INDICT!
M@rlow(e) : I always knew that that 'Shakespeare' chappy was not a patch on you mate, lol !!
I dug your post and also note that there ain't Nothing "Trickle Down" about Modern Consumer / High Finance Crapitalism as it is all now so clearly a case of "Hoover Up Kaputalism" !!!
verum ex absurdo ...
Laffn.. Well Said! and TY. .. Marlow
Marlow : I dof my cap with :
Stay well and aware and keep sharing, mate ;-)
fiat lux ...
hm I guess those corps can afford it
MH : Indeed and "those Corps." can go on "affording it" endlessly as unlike 'Real People', these 'Virtual People' can not be die !!!
If only the "Corps." could be reduced to being a Corpse every 75 years or so - like natural born 'people' !!
momento mori ...
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I don't know who you have met but your conclusions are downright stupid.
Gates, Jobs, Khosla, Yang etc made products for the average consumer, people like you and me. We bought their products and used their services and thus they made money, because they made a compelling product/service. Are you suggesting that somehow the so-called evil 1% press a button which controls your brain and you go and buy the next iPhone?
A leg up for profit? So Apple's profit come from money given away by other Fortune 500 people? I thought it came from selling devices, apps and music. Guess I was wrong then.
Is the entire middle class jobless? They aren't. Just a few are.
As for a Harvard degree, Jobs and Woz aren't from Harvard. Besides, it takes good brains to get into Harvard or MIT. Brains that you ain't got.
I would have asked you to think long and hard before making such comments but then I know you are capable of reasoned thought.
And the 5 likes on you post shows that this place is filled with other losers like you.
those in foreclosure are victims of their own actions....those who saw their homes as a way to live above their means, and buy toy's they didn't need, or merit........
People need to wake up and understand that no one owes them anything, they are not owed a standard of living, they are not owed leisure, they are not owed a paycheck.....all those things are "earned"
as far as 70% of the middle class being unemployed that is more hyperbolic nonsense......and no one is prevented from medical attention, the reason so many are ill is that they play fast and loose with their health just like they do with their finances.....
they need to take a lesson from the depression generation who largely were financially independent by retirement......because they knew the results of poor financial activity.....
I love when you guys talk about sharing.......because all it means is that those who have worked and earned money, been responsible and thrifty, and created wealth are supposed to "share" with those who wasted their resources, made bad decisions, put forth marginal effort, and made limited accomplishments......those who were more focused on entertainment and leisure than becoming financially independent......
Those who began saving young, and didn't make foolish irresponsible decisions, those who constantly worked on themselves and improved their skills and experience to make themselves more valuable to the marketplace......those are the people you think should "share" and give you what they have accumulated so that all are equally miserable....
I have a better idea.....go out and earn it your damn selves.......
I, and others, wouldn't owe you a squirt of piss if you were on fire.....we pay the bills of this country, and those who you advocate take it and spend it and are always clamoring for more and more.....
You fools think YOU'RE angry.....hahaha, you have NO idea of the anger of those who are watching the decline of this country into a bunch of whining little pussies who feel entitled to things they haven't earned.....
perhaps one day you'll understand.....if you upset the system and you finally discover that revolution isn't a romantic notion, or some wonderful evolution of love and kindness......as you are crushed under the boot heels of those who understand hard sustained organized effort, and the value of preparedness.....you won't find it so attractive then...and it will be too late....
and what about people's pensions that have been wiped out? are they at fault? here's a list of links if you can't find any. https://www.google.ch/search?rlz=1C1CHKZ_enCH432CH432&aq=f&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF8&q=failed+pension+plans
still no answer? slammersworldwillnotbecensored, your efforts to defend an inherently corrupt old fashioned socio-political model are pathetic. money is not more important than people. people are more important than money. you wouldn't sell of your children would you? well, maybe you shouldn't answer that one. just concentrate on answering my question about pensioners losing out to speculators. make me happy. btw i just turned down a CHF10'000 job designing a video installation at the luxury parkhotel vitznau in switzerland because the people were assholes and i have other work just as lucrative and far more enjoyable. follow the link and drool if you're into that kind of shit. so don't try to paint me as some whining loser trying to get into your fucking pockets.
http://www.parkhotel-vitznau.ch/
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Boo Hoo... now wipe your nose, and clean your Mushroom
I'm not the one whining.......I'm happy with my life, a few less parasites who only consume, might be nice....otherwise, I'm flush, thanks....
Good post and true
Agreed. Personally I think we should stock up on firearms to defend myself when these Occupy people decide to grow a pair and do something.
done and done...I just picked up a new rifle, a new Glock 45acp, and a couple thousand rounds of ammo in the last couple weeks....
posted as YOUR warning....the above
keep it up and you'll reap exactly what you deserve......
We, the producers, are watching....
You will live to eat those words, guarenteed.
I am not afraid, not in the slightest......the one thing about actually earning money, is it allows you to be WELL prepared for future events......most of us who actually do work, are......
My local sportsman's club is filled with those who are prepared, trained and ready to defend themselves, their property, and their possessions against any possible action.......don't think for a second because you have a bunch of loser who gather in a park, or who can vandalize urban area's while wearing bandana's or Guy Fawkes masks that when it REALLY comes down to brass tacks, that you stand the slightest chance....
keep believing that though, and you'll be food for worms
You misinterpreted my words. Not surprizingly. I'm saying that history, and the fate of your children in an economically dicarded nation, will lead you to see the errors of your ways, if you block the progress that would reverse the trends of American downfall.
Tell it like it is Marlow.
People take action sign the petition that is here to confront corruption.
We will only move forward - Together.
http://www.thepetitionsite.com/8/stop-the-corruption-on-wall-street/
Says who? Those 2/3rds in their interviews with Forbes?
There is really no such thing as a "self made man". The term itself is propaganda. They might as well be the Marlboro Man.
....really, So what (if some group of elite want to call themselves self-made). everyone can call themselves "self made" and live happily ever after.
The question is what did they do besides making money? Improving life quality? living standards? etc. Is that exclusive to the Forbes people? everyone else is just a by-product of a hyper-industrial hyper-financial state of a "must" process that no one else understands except these Forbes guys or soon to be Forbes guy?
Give me a break
I'm not sure, but you seem to saying you think acting like a psychopath as often as possible is a desirable state of mind.
Other than electronics, almost everything else we consider modern convenience was invented in the former half of the 20th century.
Please don't mention programing, as it was invented to serve the electronics
Most of it has been turned into a form of subscription service, through engineered obsolescence. Only to insure rising profit margins on those 50 to 100 year old inventions.
Lazy psychopaths is what many of them are.
What I meant was I agree with your general stance. Except you have to agree that these "self-made" guys a la Forbes have some sort of advantage. Their answer is what have you done?
I'm sure you also agree that it is somewhat challenging trying to explain:
" I have some ideas that you might like but it is mine".
Their general response if it is useful to their situation 99 times out of 100 is:
"Oh, nice idea but we thought of it first".
And if they don't like it you're either a communist or a terrorist or a psychopath, etc.
So what matters is which side of the road are you on, from their point of view , because they run the highway!
Therefore you need to define this highway first. Capitalism? well i guess that's what they call it.
Like the guy who invented the intermittent windshield wipers, before the auto corporations did?
They ripped him off and then kept it in court until the guy died.
What kind of highway do you call that?
Of course people will steal your stuff if you let them. Don't let them, not that it excuses it, but people should be wiser.
What the hell's that supposed to mean?
It's OK for the bigger kids to steal the little kids lunch box?
Blame the little kid because he didn't handcuff it to his wrist?
You're a strange man craig.
No, I'm with you. It's despicable to steal from others. But expecting human nature to change significantly in our lifetime is not going to happen. If theft occurred, we should most certainly prosecute the individuals involved. But all I was saying is, people shouldn't leave their bike unlocked and say "someone do something" when it's gone.
I'm with you though, it's despicable.
It's not just theft. A whole range of things most of which can't even be taken to court. Where have you been?
Well, at least we agree on some stuff.
How do you stand on get the money out?
I went ahead and read a few versions of the amendment, but the two I read were quite different and to be honest, somewhat vague. I am personally sick of vagueness in laws and want something concrete and concise. The voting holiday idea sounds nice, I think it would be quite honorable and fitting to start observing Veteran's Day on voting day. Or Haloween LOL
I agree again.
Getting the money out legislation has to be clear and total. No exceptions.
Some kind of voters holiday centered around Veterans would be fitting and proper. Perhaps it should be extended to two or three rotating days off, to allow business to continue with reduced staff during the period.
yeah somewhat like that.
don't know what to call it. A false highway. Or a failed Highway! Take your pick.
One in bad need of repaving?
It's got more pot holes than any road in Michigan..............:)
the elizabeth warren B.S
Which proves the statement incorrect in what way?
the warren theology of no one got rich by themselves. B.S.
Was that meant to be a cogent comment?
It wasn't.
Why did you "choose" not to understand how to respond to a comment?
the warren " no one got rich by themselves" ideology of marxism.
OK, Who did?
The first cave man to invent a workable club?
It's got NOTHING to do with Marxism. Where do you get this wacky stuff from?
it's marxism 101 ,........ overtly .being pushed by warren.
When did the truth about reality become marxism?
Around the same time that you quit answering questions?
reality isn't marxism any more than maxism is reality
And not clearly answering questions is an affliction.
As is this type of misdirection.
hahaha....I can only laugh at you for this comment..
aside from the fact that shooz is correct, it's also irrelevant. Do you sue a doctor for malpractice only if his actions were conspiratory or evil? No you take corrective action when someone fucks up. Someone fucked up, we're taking action. We are also taking action to correct the lack of action by our representatives. The method has been used before, it's effective. How does anyone still find the level of shock and paranoia you and law enforcement seem to get from this. Considering this is the most peaceful protest in American history. You and your type are wound up way to tight homie. I mean like "craaazzyyy" you guys need meds.
hmmm? actually with the vandalism and public property destruction, the rapes and suicides I don't think it would be the most peaceful protest in American history.....I think that title belongs to the Tea Party......
and Shooz is wrong, as usual.....and will always be wrong, and will never see the success of those with the right character, mindset, attitude and application of effort, because he, and apparently you as well.....just don't have them.....
get used to being losers and failures....it is your destiny with your mentality....
aside from the fact that shooz is correct, it's also irrelevant. Do you sue a doctor for malpractice only if his actions were conspiratory or evil? No you take corrective action when someone fucks up. Someone fucked up, we're taking action. We are also taking action to correct the lack of action by our representatives. The method has been used before, it's effective. How does anyone still find the level of shock and paranoia you and law enforcement seem to get from this. Considering this is the most peaceful protest in American history. You and your type are wound up way to tight homie. I mean like "craaazzyyy" you guys need meds.
This is typical of you Leftists. When you can't win a debate and you know you are wrong,you resort to spam because as slammers said:
"get used to being losers and failures....it is your destiny with your mentality"
doom
Of what failure do you speak?
You are rather presumptive.
your attitude reveals you....any success you have will be fleeting and temporary because you have a losers mentality.....
Still presumptive?
You need that quote again.
The liar's punishment is not in the least that he is not believed but that he cannot believe anyone else.
right........and?
Thanks for proving the quote......:)
I knew you could do it.
hahahaha...I'm still laughing at you, you use so many words to say absolutely nothing........I believe the verified truth, and those who have demonstrated a tendency towards it...something you have failed to do.....
Prove to me then, the exact irrefutable meaning of the term "self made man".
It's a PR term......pure propaganda.
a scarecrow could be self made
Just like the guys on WallStreet, somebody else stuffed him.
self-made
adjective:
having become successful or rich by one's own efforts...
becoming successful without special advantage, inherited wealth or influence....
That's true only in the PR sense of the term.
Someone taught him, someone raised him, someone helped him.
A society made it all possible.
There's no such thing as a self made man.
it did that for everyone.......and yet some step out ahead.....THAT is self-made
tell me then...why isn't everyone a billionaire?
There are far to many variables that make your statement dubious at best.
Why does anybody NEED to be a billionaire?
So they can by a government?
Is that how they pay back the society that allowed them to do that?
So they can sit on their over sized piles of stuff and holler, Mine, Mine, Mine? Like spoiled children?
I worked hard my whole life too. I don't need to be a billionaire, but I resent those that think it's OK for those billionaires to finagle more of the value from what I did earn, as well as those that think there's something wrong with me because I never became a billionaire.
Under current conditions, if everyone were billionaires our money would be worthless.
That's because it's inarguable.
Laugh on.
if you say so.......hahaha
Another Shaw?
The liar's punishment is not in the least that he is not believed but that he cannot believe anyone else.
Yeah this post is pretty much bullshit. Conservetives or a better handle for them is reactionaries operate under the naive assumption that everybody gets what they deserve, when nothing could be further from the truth. Did these people ever go to public schools and universities? Do they use the infrastructure that is provided by tax dollars to sell their products? How many of these guys made their billions on tech that was developed by the government? Also more often than not becoming rich has alot to do with luck, it all boils down to being at the right person at the right place at the right time. It also has a fair amount to do with being a ruthless son of a bitch too. These guys that run these companies aint exactly saints.
A good businessman gets along with everybody
Yeah until his factory dumps a shit load of toxic chemicals into the local drinking supply so that he can make even more money. Case in point Chevron in Ecuador.
that's plain lazy
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if they did how does that separate them from everyone else and give them an advantage others don't have?
It doesn't, the "results" separate them....and as such your assertions are bullshit...
Whats false about my assertions?
that because the used public and cultural privileges they aren't "self-made" many others used them too....but didn't achieve similar results..
Learn to type a coherent sentence at least, before you go on to invoke your supposed superiority.
Plus, slammersworldwillnotbecensored has never been censored so far as I can see. We don't censor the idiotic, just the creepazoids.
I have been blocked twice.....one under "slammersworld" then again under "slammersworldisback"
so, yes....I HAVE been censored
Well then, maybe your not just idiotic, but a creepazoid as well.
I think, mostly, you fools can't stand the truth, or mirrors....
And a determined idiot. Living that definition of insanity - repeating the same actions over and over and expecting a different result. Not surprising.
LOL!!! This guy takes the cake for that! Just the same damn thing over and over and over again.
Laughing
Obsessive compulsive you think? Or just the average run of the mill masochist?
LLOOLL!!!!!!! I suspect the first, but maybe a bit of the last as well, poor guy.
Perhaps he'll get noticed and then some help.
Pathetic really.
you all make me laugh, the opinions of those here matter very little to me, I am simply here to cast some light into your darkness of thought, a positive force in your world of negativity where you project all your failures outwardly and subsequently have no recourse in correcting them but to sit around and complain about others....
to give you the key to your own success, and it has nothing to do with punishing others.....you merely need to stop punishing yourselves...
There might be an autoblock after you reach a certain level of negative rep.
I've seen you get pretty low on that account.
Where were you at the last time?
Who paid for those public privilages? They arent self made. Our tax dollars laid the infrastructure for them to get rich. The only thing that seperates them from the others is luck and probably a fair amount of ruthlessness. Their are millions of talented and well educated people that work hard their whole lives and they never get rich. Its all a crap shoot.
the elizabeth warren B.S. strikes again.
elizabeth warren is a libtard idiot
Yes, she is !!!!!!
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"our" tax dollars......try again, on the federal level most of the taxes are paid (70+%) by those who earn in excess of <115K>, so "who's" tax dollars are you talking about.....how about we let those who pay the taxes decide where they go? how would you like that system, and a system where those who receive a check from the government forfeit their vote......
It has nothing to do with luck, it has to do with preparation, effort, and the philosophy that allows one to recognize opportunity when it is stumbled upon.....
I little quote from Calvin Coolidge
"Nothing in the world can take the place of Persistence. Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent. Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent. The slogan 'Press On' has solved and always will solve the problems of the human race."
it's not about "hard work" if that work is aimless and not tied to a larger purpose.....you become what you focus on most of the time......
and most of those associated with OWS have become bitter, angry, lazy, entitled fools, without direction or goals.....
that will get you nowhere, with nothing...FAST
luck? and ruthlessness?
hahahahahahahaha! you really have NO clue
And besides where did you get this information? 2/3 of Forbes 400 are self made? Wheres the link?
up the page somewhere is a link you can break down a number of ways
I said luck and ruthlessness in the first response to your post it wasnt funny then. Do you have an argument or not?
luck has NOTHING to do with it, unless it's the luck where preparation meets opportunity.....
I see, no argument.Its all about Horatio Alger huh? See ya around smart guy.
no...you probably won't....your attitude will prevent you from access to the places I can afford
enjoy a life of failure and bad "luck"
Entirely self made?
As if the work force had nothing to do with creating their goods so that they could be sold.... I wonder how many computers Steve Jobs could have made on his own?
The roads they use, the Police force that protects their places of business, the Fire Department that keeps their business safe, the teachers that taught them what they know... all were unnecessary under this definition of 'entirely self made'.
Yeah sure.
Funny...that is the standard line from you idiots.....
every citizen has those benefits and yet the example of Steve Jobs used his skills, talents and intelligence to utilize the resources around him more efficiently.....
The workforce didn't provide for Steve Jobs...HE provided for them, and largely the same situation for fire/police/teachers, etc......do you think he took more from, or gave more to, the system?
Took more since most of his products are made in China. Making the Communists richer is not my idea of giving back to the system... maybe its yours.
While his factories may be in China, his headquarters and residence and place of education was here in the US, where he benefited from all of the infrastructure that was placed here.
Apple products were made in Cupertino CA for many years until the costs involved became too prohibitive.....I was an Apple user when they cost a few thousand dollars in the late 90's, the prices have gone down dramatically since that time, making them more accessible to consumers...something that wasn't going to happen with the costs involved in US production......
Apple became a market force based in the US, the move oversea's came much later....any use of US infrastructure was repaid in spades long before the move occurred....
Slick answer.
Tell me what percent of market share did Apple have during the years in the US? Hint: not a big number, not even in double digits.
Apple became a market force with the introduction of the iPod, which was manufactured in China.
So you favor globalism and making commies rich? Sorry, I call that treason.
What do you have against communism?
Communism as practiced by the Peoples Republic of China is repugnant. Do I need to list the human rights violations and infringements on freedom?
They call themselves communists, so I oblige by returning the favor. I believe our relationship with them will seriously hurt this country more than it already has.
Apple had HUGE market share in the mid-eighties in the educational sector and in the portable market: the original "macintosh"....
Apple was a market contender long before the iPod....
No, I advocate eliminating the regulations and world's highest tax rates that send jobs to other countries and make: facility construction, infrastructure improvement, manufacturing, shipping, warehousing, and distributing cheaper than manufacturing here in the US more expensive than all of those other costs....
No they weren't. Apple had barely 10% of the computer market and would've been crushed by Microsoft (that was their goal) had the government not stepped in, told Microsoft that if Apple fell, Microsoft would've been considered a monopoly. Gates realized the folly of eliminating Apple and turned around and helped prop Apple up. Remember the Time cover with Gates and Jobs shaking hands, acting like old college buddies with the caption "Thank God for Microsoft?"
you are talking about an entirely different timeframe.......the Microsoft "bailout" of Apple did not happen until 1997......In the mid 80's Apple had a head start on Microsoft...but made the apparent (it hasn't turned out to be) mistake of NOT licensing software to other manufacturers.....which Microsoft did, and assumed market share in the PC world....
Ah, you're right. I stand corrected. My apologies.
At the peak of its success Apple pc's commanded a 15% overall market share in the mid 1980's. http://arstechnica.com/old/content/2005/12/total-share.ars
Eliminating the regulations (environmental, worker health and safety) that keep us from having the standard of living of a 3rd world country is just a race to the bottom. There is no way that American workers can compete with a Chinese factory worker that makes $150/ month (may actually rise to $200/month this year).
What we need is a return to the tariff system, or really implement Fair Trade over Free Trade. Ross Perot was correct, that sucking sound we heard when Free Trade was implemented was our jobs leaving this country.
I'll agree about cutting corporate taxes, but those that compete with people that live in grass huts, will soon be living in grass huts themselves. The race to the bottom is killing this country.
that 15% you are quoting is overall market share, and in the 80's that is placed against IBM business computers and the other business applications....when you consider only the PC market Apple (which is Apple's niche) was a major player in the mid 80's.....
again, when you bring up the salary of the chinese worker you are not accounting for the salaries of the seamen who work the cargo ships, the construction costs and salaries of the workers and professionals who offer their expertise in the specifics of the facility construction, you're not adding the cost of the longshoreman who unload the ships, and the truck drivers who haul the products to the warehouses and the dock workers who unload and rack them into mass storage (larger quantities of storage than would be required if the products were manufactured here.....
The race to squeeze ever drop of taxation from profits via direct and indirect taxation is a larger problem than tariffs, and the out of market wages of some jobs is also a real factor.....like a line worker making $30+ dollars an hour to sit and watch a machine....
It is regulation and government impediment that is killing this country...as an example, Henry Ford, or Thomas Edison, could not survive or begin in the current climate of commerce in this country.....
"It is regulation and government impediment that is killing this country...as an example, Henry Ford, or Thomas Edison, could not survive or begin in the current climate of commerce in this country....."
They way they ran their business's thats a good thing. Industry dumped industrial waste indiscriminately into rivers and the atmosphere. Like I said, these regulations keep us from living like a 3rd World Country. Look at the embarrassment China had over the air pollution during their Olympics. Embarrassment was the least of it as pollution kills those being polluted.
Half of those salaries, those on the Chinese half, be they dock workers or truck drivers, or those that built the mfg facilities (which was subsidized by the Chinese govt.) add very little to the equation because of their lack of financial value.... ie., low wages.
You may have an issue with a line worker making $30/hr. to 'watch a machine' as you put it....but that has its context too doesn't it. The average salary might be $45,000 in the US, but in New York that is considered almost poverty wages because of the cost of living. You are not even considered 'Middle Class' unless you pull in $100,000+, and that's lower Middle Class.
I'm going to tell you all about a so called 'self made millionaire'...I was (he is now deceased) a personal acquaintance of this man. He lived in a town near the Canadian border. A little 'no where town' that had a few things going for it...It was in the middle of farming country, good rich farm land, it had an easy to work with bank, in the 60's and 70's farm community banks usually were, and it had three manufacturing plants within 50 miles and a fourth about 125 miles away.
Snowmobiles, Windows and hockey sticks...Heck of a bunch of things to base a local economy on.
Well, this man, his brother in law and his best friend decided that hauling grain to the elevators was the way to riches. So they went to the nice friendly bank and borrowed 10K to buy a truck and trailer...now even back then 10K wasn't enough to pay cash for this kind of equipment, so they arranged with the local used dealer for a by here pay here deal. They made the down payment, filled the truck with fuel and set out to make their fortune.
I'm going to fast forward a bit here...the brother in law was a farmer, he'd inherited his dad's farm, well, more like his dad sold him the farm for a dollar. A person could do that back then, probably still can...this farm had been in the family for generations, an original homestead of 160 acres, buying out failed homesteads, buying out widows and orphans...the farm grew.
Well the brother in law paid off the debt on the truck and trailer, he wasn't all that interested in that business anyway, he had several hundred acres to farm...so the two friends managed to hold that old truck together for a couple more years, when one of them decided that hauling grain wasn't the ticket they thought it was.
This fellow went to the manufacturing companies in the area and promised to haul their product for less than any other transportation company could.
He got trial contracts.
Contracts, no trucks, except one old beater, no trailers except one designed for grain hauling and no drivers except himself and his buddy.
He went back to that friendly bank and showed them the contracts, he didn't tell the bank those were try out hauls to see if he could deliver on his word, he told the bank they were solid repeat freight contracts. The bank took him at his word, after all, the brother in law had paid off the last loan, he got enough for 5 trucks and trailers.
Oh yeah, before I forget, he also mortgaged his brother in law's, car, pick up truck, 5 ton truck, four tractors and several field trailers and one combine. He neglected to let his brother in law know.
Eight months, two payments several loads and 4 unpaid drivers later, he was hiding everything from the bank, hiring new drivers to pick up trucks the drivers left abandoned because they were out of fuel and not getting paid. Leaving a truck or two sitting at weigh stations out of service (the bank would eventually find them) and one pissed of brother in law...he had enough cash to purchase good equipment.
In the 80's his company netted over 5 million, in the early 90's it was netting over 20, he sold out to another trucking firm, retired to the farm his own dad sold him for a dollar when his dad decided he was done farming.
Yep, this guy was a self made man. He lied, he cheated, he almost bankrupted his brother in law, he didn't pay his employees...
He also used highways paid for by millions of other people, used services provided by the labor of hundreds of thousands of others, he took advantage of everyone he met.
Sad part of this man's story is he built a really nice house. Very expensive, all the bells and whistles available at that time...and his wife wouldn't live in it with him.
So based on one example we are supposed to conclude that all people that become successful are corrupt beyond hope? Does it follow that the unsuccessful are all sheep willing to live a life of mediocrity watching reality television, indifferent to the success of others?
There are as many different opinions on what makes a person "successful" as there are successful people.
Being rich != successful. He was rich, sure, but he was poor in the areas that count.
In this case it doesn't really matter how you define success or failure, there is no merit to an argument based on an anecdote.
how do you know he was poor in areas that count? define what counts? should your definition of what counts be forced on everyone ? obviously being rich DOES count in your eyes since you are so fixated on it. If you didn't care about being rich you wouldn't even mention it. You are jealous.
Poor in moral and ethical fiber.
I'm the better person, because I have earned my money, while this guy cheated and screwed over a number of people in order to get started. I'm not jealous of slimeballs.
Its funny, because a lot of these people claim to be "Christian" yet constantly do directly the opposite of what their holy book tells them to do.
I agree with you there on the Christian hypocrisy. Although I wouldn't limit it to Christians as you Libs love to do.
Yeah it applies to all religions...and its not my fault that conservatives don't count many Jewish, Muslim, agnostic, aethiest, Buddhist, etc. people among their ranks. Maybe if they weren't spending all of their time trying to force their Christian beliefs into schools and government you would have more than just middle-aged white Christian males on your side.
Why do Conservatives need to do the counting? are there no conservatives of other persuasions? It's not a matter of Christians forcing religion on everyone - it's gotten to the point where Christians are not given the same consideration as non Christians. The ground zero Mosque for instance. Why was the Mayor involved with helping them at all? If it where a Christian concern as in the use of a public school on a Sunday - they threw out the Christian group just because they were renting space in a public school. Should they not be given the same consideration as everyone else? That would be fair not this policy of discrimination which is practiced daily.
On the school issue, yes, they should not have been allowed to use government property, else EVERY religious group in the area should have had equal use in the building. The government, according to the constitution, cannot discriminate for or against any religion. Its either give every single religion equal access, or equally deny access to them all. No middle ground. The constitution forbids it.
Its the Christians that are trying to force prayer into public schools, force women to conform to Christian values, and force governments to deny gay people their civil rights simply because of their beliefs. If "Christian law" is going to be allowed in our country, then Sharia Law also has to be enacted, as well as the "laws" of every other group of fiction-believers in the country.
why dont you copy & paste the first amendment here so I can read it: show me where it says the words separation of church & state.
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=The+First+Amendment
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. OR PROHIBITING THE FREE EXERCISE THERE OF. I guess this part doesn't count. How does a religious group meting in a public school when it is closed & they are paying rent interfere with anyone? I noticed you didn't spend much time addressing the issue of the ground zero mosque.
Read the part that says "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion" again. NO LAW. That means no special treatment for ANY religion.
Government cannot allow those religious groups into the schools, because then they would have to allow ALL of the groups into the schools. No one is stopping you from believing in your fiction in your churches, or in your own homes. By law it has to stay out of government.
The mosque thing is perfectly fine. Again either all structures are allowed or none of them are. It would be discriminatory if the mosque was banned and a Jewish church was allowed to be erected instead, but it would not have been an issue if no religious structures were allowed either. The mayor chose "all" in the "all or none" decision, and that is constitutionally correct.
it's a moot point. the Mosque is not going to be built.
yea it matters - that's the whole hypocrisy lol! are you kidding lol! no matter - the Ground Zero Mosque is toast.
No it would have been discrimination to deny the Muslims their permit on the land that they bought. If you Christians wanted that land so bad, you should have bought it first. No one is stopping you from sticking a church on whatever piece of land you buy.
Stop whining about the fact that the government didn't discriminate against Muslims. They were bound by law to allow the permit to go through. You only care because those people don't believe in the same fiction that you do. Get over it.
Does the Mayor get involved when other religious groups are applying for permits? It seems he took an unusually personal interest in the Mosque case.
Does it matter? It is within the mayor's rights to help anyone fill out the required paperwork.
Now if the NYC city council passed a resolution stating that "all Muslim applicants for building permits will have their requests expedited." then THAT would be discrimination. Or if the mayor waived the application fees because they were Muslim.
no one was saying other religions cant rent out the school in off hours. Who was making a law? It was an issue of renting space to anyone who wants it. It happened to be a religious group. The Mosque thing is fine? really? The Mayor injecting himself to help them acquire permits etc is not Government support of religion? No double standard here ? So all in the mosque case is ok & all in the public school case is not?
Is it government support of religion if someone at the DMV helps a Jewish person register their vehicle? Or if someone in Social Services helps a Buddhist fill out an EBT application?
Your claim that giving a person the correct forms to fill out amounts to religious support is absurd. The fact is that any Christian group could have filed for that spot first and received the same exact treatment, but because its a Muslim group all of you Jesus lovers freak out.
Its ALL or NONE. That's the test. The school chose NONE. The mayor chose ALL. How is this hard to understand?
So the moral of the story is ALL self made millionaires are liars, cheaters and thieves. Gee - when we stereotype any other minority group we are called bigots, racists, etc. Yet here - those standards are suspended as we stereotype all 1%ers as liars, cheaters and thieves. How convenient.
I tend to generalize these things I see it more as make any and all facts conform to your bias.
Great Story.. Thx for taking the time to write it out. And, for your One Story.. there are a Thousand More.. .. ..It's exactly the kind of mentality the Professionals use to Cut themselves the biggest piece of the Pie! .. Integrity, Character, Honor.. NONE of these apply to Our Elected Officials.. The Banks, The BOD of all Corps, and Institutions.... MM's of Mutual Funds.. Hedge Fund MM's.. and Their Leaders, and Boss...
Integrity, Character, and Honor, Which one are you willing to give up for the 'Money'?
Too easy , ... isnt it?
Now that's a typical self made man......:)
Hell of it was, he was a pretty nice fellow to talk with, just don't trust him with money.
So the moral of the story is ALL self made millionaires are liars, cheaters and thieves. Gee - when we stereotype any other minority group we are called bigots, racists, etc. Yet here - those standards are suspended as we stereotype all 1%ers as liars, cheaters and thieves. How convenient.
I speak of one man and one person makes the assumption that it's about him being liar and cheat...I see the moral was completely missed.
He did not do it alone, period, he was not 'self made', there was one heck of a lot of help.
and? so if you want to make yourself & need some help - go ask for it. What does that have to do with forcing me to help you? If your ideas stink why should I be forced to help you like Solyndra - perfect example. Stop the use of force already !
That's ok you think my ideas stink, although I haven't presented any to you, it's your privilege to make assumptions.
I would not deny you that small pleasure.
it was a rhetorical statement about ideas. It's up to you to make it out there. No one should be FORCED to subsidize you or any corporation or individual etc. or is your attitude that some force is necessary for our own good?
run on sentences
'Run IN" or did you mean "run on" ?
Reality check: "extra effort, delayed gratification, delayed compensation, and continuous effort despite temporary failure....."
In this capitalist society, regardless if you work yourself to the bone, delayed gratification and compensation; you are not guaranteed to succeed. It is the ugly truth of reality. I have seen quite a few friends working till their hair grayed and getting nowhere fast. I have seen friends who never even make it that far (now deceased) working every day of their life.
What you are spewing is a pipe dream and nothing more.
there has NEVER been a guarantee to success, it's only a pipe dream to those who need an excuse not to try.....
So you are reinforcing my point and defeating your own argument. Your pipe dream remains a pipe dream since you wrecked your own argument of using "extra effort, delayed gratification, delayed compensation, and continuous effort despite temporary failure....." to reach success. You will eventually have to face this reality.
hardly.....even those things aren't a sure guarantee, but there is no guarantee you'll reach the end of the block by walking there either....but getting up and walking improves your chances over sitting around hypothesizing and complaining about the odds..........
See, this is why people don't like your type. You act like a superior douche claiming that people aren't trying when you don't know shit. You refuse to face reality that not everyone will ever be given an opportunity in this capitalist society yet you act all high and mighty trying to say otherwise. All the dribble you spout may be fiction but that never meant that I won't try.
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"excuse not to try"? He gave you crystal clear examples of people who are trying and tried but never got anywhere. I question your reading comprehension skills.
"working hard" alone will get you almost no where......you could dig holes and fill them back up all day and never make a cent or advance at all.....you have to intelligently work hard and make efforts toward advancement, and prepare for the opportunities before they arrive, so you can take advantage of them when they come.....
You guys have the philosophy all wrong, and THAT is the problem, and combined with your attitude and the chip on your shoulder because others won't GIVE you everything you want (like a petulant child)....equals an nearly impossible chance to achieve anything....but the problem is found with a simple gaze in the mirror, not at the end of your pointing entitlement demanding fingers....
I never asked for handouts unlike those corporate fat cats and their bailouts. Where did you get "because others won't GIVE you everything you want" from what I've written?
"you have to intelligently work hard and make efforts toward advancement, and prepare for the opportunities before they arrive, so you can take advantage of them when they come....."
Get off your high horse you presumptuous prick. What have I written, that made you think I won't give it my all? Your reply is very typical of your kind, responding with a flawed argument. Because working hard and smart is not enough, you have to work even smarter!!!
Not even true. To make it in this system, you have to do things that violate your conscience and sense of humanity to other people, just to get ahead.
Like work hard.
working hard violates your conscience and sense of humanity?
Billionaires have successfully destroyed the economy by sucking out all it's wealth and leaving millions in poverty.
ugh, you really are so misinformed it's painful.....the top 1% (the billionaires) earn about 28% of the income each year, and have a combined net worth of about 5 years of the total income in a single year....
that leaves a MASSIVE amount available for everyone else....and through diligence, and financially reasonable decisions ANYONE can become financially independent......but those who decide it is not possible, eliminate the possibility by their own choices, and those who behave irresponsibly eliminate the possibility by their own actions...
No one is holding anyone else down, people hold themselves down with bad philosophies and behavior...
Their you go again ? Billionaires do not earn' their wealth.
The rest I won't even read.
You are out of control and need to start taking your meds again. Do you think they just pick money off the trees, like leaves??? hahahhahaha
Actually they pick it out of our pockets.
They cut down all the trees they can.
You should see your doctor, as you are obviously on the wrong meds.
If this is true then why are you not "Occupying" billionaires like Buffet, Soros, etc??? Oh wait that's right they are not Republicans
I can't believe even you could be this silly.
Did you miss the the name of the forum?
Did you miss the name of the movement?
WE do protest all of them.
Join us today.
OccupWallStreet!
Billionaires don't earn their wealth???
Now you've finally lost it.......do they conjure it by magic?
Did slave owners earn their wealth? No, they exploited other human beings. Look it up, exploited!
slave owners????
OMG!!
Slave owners were very wealthy. They gained their wealth off the backs of their slaves. If you can't see the direct correlation than your not as bright as you think. SW
what about the black freemen that owned slaves, were they wealthy too?
your correlation is nonsense.....
There is no slavery in the American system....sorry
I know, I know........The "invisible hand", graces them with it.
Along with a convenient excuse for how they "earned" it.
It's not magic, it's their God.
Shooz! All's we gotta do is shoot a bullit into the ground and the oil comes a-oozin' on up. I seed it on the TeeVee. Sum feller named Jed Clampett dun it and he mooved to Beverly Hills Calliforny and he had hisself a SEE-ment pond and everythin'. Hoo-doggies!!! Now that's earnin' money, like that other feller you was a-arguin' with t'were talkin' about. The invisee-bull hand! (Just kidding, shooz) :-)
Yep. It's kind of like when their bailout magically disappeared, without a trace.
It's just the market magic that lines their pockets with the work of others.
Somehow, that's not welfare. It's only welfare when "lazy, poor" people get money. Hmmm...no wonder I'm confused. Somebody slap me!
For some odd reason it's not considered redistribution of wealth when they use their position to extort the governments of the World either.
I guess that one only count's in one direction, as the lower end gets austerity and the other gets a bonus.
It sounds as though you're as "confused" as I am then! LOL!
I'm so confused I can describe how the WallStreet business model mimics the mafia........in a corporate citizen kind of way.
It tends to throw them for a loop.
Gambling, scamming, hookers and blow? "Hits" and gov't tampering? Or is there even more?
You left off the most profitable of all.....loansharking.
Care for an IPO?
It'll make you rich. Don't worry, you'll be able to make the payments....:)
That's pretty much my understanding of it.
Seriously - Gone - finieto - poof. Smoke and mirrors.
If the money lost was replaced in the bailout? Then why did we have the collapse anyway.
Huh.
Troubling.
Shouldn't that have hit some sort of reset?
OH oh the banks didn't want to reset.
I get it.
Never mind.
In other related news!!!!!! jart has jumped ship and this usually happens when a fad is disappearing the way OWS is
Do you ever stop making things up?
There are forums out there for creative writing.
Quick question, why is it that 90% of the time, slammer seems to be down-rated even when it is a perfectly reasonable arguement?
Slammer, when will you stand back and admit the unfair distribution of wealth. Many poor people work harder than the rich. The idea that the rich have earned their wealth has absolutely no truth to it. It is a logical fallacy.
unfair distribution????????????? you really buy into that crap? most people with money WORKED for it.
wealth is NOT distributed.....it's created and earned
when will you get that through your excessively thick skull?
They dont get it because they cant to get it. they have been taught to blame others.
As to the OP:
300 people out of the Forbes 400 are self made?
Thats 300 people out of 300 million Americans who hit Lotto. If I searched the internet I think I could find reports of 300 people who have won the Lottery big time... it happens. Luck plays a large portion of being successful in business.
He said 2/3rds nor 3/4ths.
I was being conservative with my numbers, which makes his case weaker.
if you mean luck in the sense of preparation meeting opportunity, sure....if you mean luck as random happenstance......not at all
Luck as being in the right place at the right time. Being prepared helps no doubt, to take full advantage of this. But yeah luck.
I became a 1%'er before my 25th birthday back in 1980. I worked hard, ran a successful business, but always understood the role that luck played in it. At least I can be honest with myself about it.
Really!?! You mean going to Harvard like Jeffery Zuckerman did isn't an advantage? Going to the Warton School of Business and taking over his dads real estate business like Trump did isn't an advantage?? Dig deep and you will see these Forbes 400 folks mostly are not from blue collar non college educated households. Yes are there some self made members..of course, but there are 300 million people in America so even if everyone on the list was "self made" that is still way too few!!
orpah winfrey,george soros, richard kinder, eli broad, ralph lauren,david geffen, sam zell, wexner, halle,.and on and on and on. equal opportunity does not guarantee equal outcome. that's up to the individual.
Yes it is up to the individual but as you pointed put, equal opportunity does not guarantee equal results so since we are in a system where there is not equal opportunity that means that people who start out ahead, end up ahead many times with less effort than someone starting out behind and still ending up that way.
the people that i cited did not start out" ahead". they made their own way.
You don't just "go" to Harvard, or the Warton School of Business...you earn that privilege, and 2/3's are self made without advantage.......
and this is just the top 400 THIS YEAR......from 92-07 there were 3400 people who made that list at least once, and that isn't counting the number who are "only" millionaires..
1 in 10 Americans earn in excess of 100K per year.....the odds in this country to "make it" are damn good....IF you apply yourself
So I assume that you are on the list and all the rest of us simply are not applying ourselves!?!
nope, and have no designs on ever getting on it, but the opportunity is there for those who choose to expend the effort to do the right things and know the right sort of people......those who choose the behavior of losers, and/or to associate with losers get what they deserve....
$100,000 /year barely makes middle class in NY. So what are you really saying?
3400 millionaires in a country of 300,000,000?
Why is it so hard to believe that 300 people are dishonest rather than 300 million are lazy?
No....3400 "billionaires"
there are 3.1 millionaires in the US according to the WSJ, from June 2011
http://blogs.wsj.com/wealth/2011/06/22/u-s-has-record-number-of-millionaires/
That is almost one in every 100 Americans.......the odds are getting better for financial independence....huh?
1 in every 100.... coincidence eh? 1%
That means the 99% are still not even close to being there. Great odds. Please....
If a doctor told you that you had a 99% chance of having cancer how would you feel?
Poverty is a cancer.
Your parents earn that privilege, you go to the right schools, are in the right family, etc. Extremely few people in ivy league schools "earn" the privilege.
I would explain the whole 400 on Forbes list a result of an unfair capitalist system.
yes, self reliance, drive , amibition and a good work ethic is so unfair.
and you would have us all in chains with an over zealous all powerful centralized government in control....or mob rule swinging on emotional reaction destroying anything that anyone created....
Let's not forget the millions living below poverty as another indicator of a failed capitalist system. Face it slammer capitalism is falling apart at the seams. It won't hold together much longer.
no, those living below poverty are only indicators of their own failures, bad decisions and foolish actions.......
No one is forced into poverty, it is a series of decisions, either active or passive.....
Some are forced to be born there, by the decisions of others.
This is another subject that's been treated simplistically and naively.
You should know better than to repeat this lie, slammer.
those who create children without the resources to raise them should forfeit the privilege of raising them...there are plenty of families (of all types) who have the means, but cannot create children, who would be better suited to raise them......
You see yourself as a totalitarian eugenicist now?
That's low, even for you slammer.
Who's going to pay for the Chasity belts?
Who's going to warn them of economic meltdowns?
you eagerly quoted G.B Shaw above. HE was proponent of eugenics.
I will leave the responsibility to the people themselves..I don't advocate any government intervention in the behavior of individuals.....only in the punishment of the results of such behavior.....
you're free to do as you wish until it effects others without their permission...
When will you begin to apply this philosophy to WallStreet, and all that they take without asking?
Or those that price gouge? Or those that drive up prices, only for their own profit?
You won't.
You have a low level of understanding and an even lower level of empathy.
Are you one of those that believe any kind of altruism is evil?
They sure do take without asking. All the time, we are forced to engage in economic activity with large corporations. And, they destroy their competition through regulation so they can drive up prices.
wall street doesn't take without asking......people bring their money to wall street.....to have it invested, and should understand the risks involved....
those who lost their homes because they couldn't pay should learn the lesson of having reasonable financial skills and contingency plans for tough times...rather than just haphazardly entering into contracts they can not fulfill.....
I have empathy for those who have experienced hardship, but I want them to learn and understand the lessons and how they contributed to the trouble themselves, so as to prevent it form happening to them again.....and then they can educate their children and others on how NOT to make foolish financial mistakes....I fear, however, with all the outward projection of blame, many will find themselves, once again, in the future, in similar negative situations...because they refuse to accept the responsibility of their actions and decisions.....
WallStreet gets a kickback on almost everything.
You know this. It makes a total lie out your "choose" not to buy a product "logic".
It's belied by facts of living in this "modern world".
Try and live without a refrigerator, or car, or bed, or place to live, or books to go to school, or a.................. you name it.
Wallstreet gets a kickback on every step of bringing it to market.
And they always want more.
Not to mention the reality of syndicates. One major Corporation owning or having controlling shares of hundreds and thousands of businesses, creating a functioning monopoly in the economy.
In the less esoteric World of tangible reality, we call it extortion and monopoly............:)
Yep
Making high profits affects many others. Should we punish them.
it does effect others......it allows them to be employed and to benefit from the product or service that creates the profit.....
If you don't like the margin, or price of a product/service you can choose not to purchase it.....
so, profits don't apply...
So than explain why the high profits in the recent boom have not contributed to employment in the following recession.
is anyone considering adopting this idea? www.nationalday911.org
same. self made. inherited nothing. parents have nothing, i care for them.
having a lot of money is one thing, knowing you earned makes it feel so much more fulfilling
"You know that self-made man is truely shallow. You see, he's no one but who he wants to be." - Stills
he mad
At you
These OWS goons were to used to having everything handed to them and now that they have to fin for themselves, they cry and pee their pants in the park all day
Nice to have new people on the forum.Another dick head to laugh at.
The only people being handed anything in this country are the wealthy and the corporations who have ripped off the American people by buying their government and exploiting the profits made from their labor.
many of the 1%'s worked for everything they have and now you folks want them to line your pockets, with their earnings
No. The wealthy and the corporations are the entitled ones. They've been lining THEIR pockets with the fruits of the labor of the American people.
well said
Thanks.
hahaha....truth!
:-)
This post is utter nonsense. Stop trying to shame poor people.
in the words of known socialist George Bernard Shaw...."It is a sin to be poor"
He said this too........:)
Gambling promises the poor what property performs for the rich--something for nothing.
Shaw was a proponent of eugenics.
He was also something of a comedian.
If you have the quote dealing with this, please provide it.
www.worldfuturefund.org/wffmaster/Reading/BiologyEugenics.htm scroll down to read his words, also read the words of margaret sanger. also try hnn.us/roundup/entries/115858.html if these links don't work, just do a search,........what did george bernard shaw say about eugenics.
Shaw was a playwright that was clever with words and he's also long gone.
Slammer's still here, and he quoted Shaw in the first place..
yes, a good playwright but that doesn't excuse his belief in eugenics. he's dead but you still read his plays, why would you discount his words about eugenics?
I don't watch his plays. Where did you get that idea from?
I just found some of his clever quotes to counter the one slammer posted.
Slammer is the guy suggesting eugenics, not me.
you dont have to watch an enactment of a play to know what's in it. Didn't you ever read shakespear in high school?you can read a play , on your own. you like what shaw has written but can't reconcile that with the fact that shaw was a proponent of eugenics.
You sure are a presumptive fellow.
I'm a long ways from high school, and I never read Shaw.
You need to bring this up with slammer.
You don't do any reading on your own? you said you haven't readShaw, yet you quoted him.
Why do you keep repeating yourself?
Are you daft?
I explained this several post ago.
im not asking you about eugenics, i asked is you ever read plays, poetry or biographys. reading people magazine doesn't count.
Daft, confused and unable to answer.
It was the statement you used to start this conversation.
You musta got lost.
i asked you a question,...............don't you ever do any reading on your own? never read poetry, a play, a biography?
I guess you need to improve your comprehension.
I answered it, by informing you to ask slammer about eugenics.
It's not my desire, it's his.
I'm a voracious reader.
I've answered your questions, More clearly.
Will you answer any of mine?
He also said this.
A day's work is a day's work, neither more nor less, and the man who does it needs a day's sustenance, a night's repose and due leisure, whether he be painter or ploughman.
perhaps.....but the man who takes a day to perform what another could perform in a few hours doesn't warrant those things.....
Leave it up to you, to completely misunderstand such a quote.
It's all about allowing for the least among us to get their due.
The rest of what you said is arguable too, but I'll let it ride for now.
NO. It is a sin to shame the poor. A sin. Stop doing it.
So true. This is why I feel that I have more "morals" than some of these "Christians!"
Most people would refer to that as "self-righteousness".
I don't even really believe in sin, but I get what you're saying. LOLOL!
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True or not, self-made is a ridiculous idiom.
Sorry, but old money in ivy league schools is not entirely self made.
I could not tell from the list who was among the 2/3, but I couldn't help but notice the source of much of the income was Wal Mart (cheap Chinese labor and products), hedge funds (no comment required), technology, oil and gas (huge government assistance). The point of OWS is not that some do not make it on their own into the upper 400, but that too many do not have the opportunity to earn a decent living because of lack of education and lack of decent health care. Too many self-made men fail to finish the job.
Why no link? Neo-cons have a tradition of pulling statistics right out of their ass.
it's on here somewhere.......
but, since you're too lazy to find it, here it is again.....
http://www.forbes.com/forbes-400/list/#p_1_s_arank_All%20industries_All%20states_Self-Made_
http://www.forbes.com/forbes-400/list/#p_1_s_arank_All%20Industries_All%20States_All%20Categories_
Forbes Magazine - you serously expect anybody here to belive anything in Forbes Magazine? LOL!!!
who do you think publishes the Forbes 400?
They like to brag. Somtetimes that's useful, but I wouldn't site them as models of factual information. Besides, I don't know what you mean by self-made. Some, undoutably, started from sctratch, but not many I'll wager, and if you do become a billtionaire from scratch than you must have done one hell of a lot of scratching, and clawing.
feel free to research the list, there is a drop down menu that separates them by several criteria and you can read biographies of them by clicking on there photo's
Why wouldn't you site them as giving factual information? is it because you disagree with their position?
Say? Why don't we all get a subscription to Fortune 500? I hear they are really socially conscious.
HaH
self made men- Ford, Krok, Morgan, Carneige, Edison..........
the anti-socialist right wing machine is made up of two factions -
the "kochs" - who spend millions to buy the government machine to become richer.
If you were a billionaire, would you spend $10,000,000 to buy congressmen to get rid of the inheritance tax so your children could inherit every penny?
If you were a billionaire, would you spend $10,000,000 to "change" laws that limit the size of your media empire? Capitalism, like any other ism breeds excess, Communism, for example, might pay a Steve Jobs $50,000 a year - and he will go elsewhere.
The railroad and coal barons of the 1900s murdered strikers - just a primitive version of today's koch machine to become richer
If you were a billionaire, would you spend $10,000,000 to invent a "grass roots" movement of lemmings to do your bidding? and
the lemmings - bought by delusions or paid for by the kochs - and deluded by the kochs that one day, they will be rich like them
most of the left are just sick of the excesses the Rs and their owners have attacked America with.
Properly controlled and regulated, capitalism can work well.
Ask Ben & Jerry. Ask Teddy Roosevelt. The anti-socialist knee jerk lemmings refuse to see that we are not against success - we are against excess.
Do you seriously believe that david koch would quit koch industries if he had to PAY a 50% income tax?
And if he did leave, there would be a million people who would be happy to take his job and PAY a 50% tax.
Money is a drug. Just like the war on drugs can never be won because no matter who you arrest, there will be someone else to step in.
You guys and your hatred for the Koch's is nothing short of laughable........
you are constantly whining about the influence that Koch industries has on everything, and yet you give Buffet and Gates a pass, both hold higher positions than either of the Koch brothers in the "richest" list....Gates is worth more than both of the Koch's combined...
and you foolishly see money as the cause.....it is not the cause it is the effect, you don't earn those levels of revenue without massive contributions to society......and adding massive value to people's lives....
C'mon Slammer, we've been over this before. It's not so much the money, it's how you got it,and what do, or don't do with it.
The Kochs are a prime example of true plutocrats, attempting to co-opt the government for their own nefarious reasons and purposes.
It's a shame that you bring this up here, instead of commenting in one of the many threads on that subject.
I didn't bring up the Koch's, I am merely responding to a commenter on my post
That may be true, but experience shows that you don't respond well to most questions..
Like Marcos contributed to his country?
Like Noriega contributed to his country?
Like Madoff contributed to his country?
who signs you paycheck? david? charles?
Marcos and Noriega were leaders.....and sort of like the Obama's with their frivolous spending, travel and leisure expenses.....and their sense of royal entitlement.....
Madoff was a crook, who's job was made easier by people who didn't pay attention to what they were investing in, only in "historical returns"
and Madoff was a piker compared to FDR and LBJ with their Social Security and Medicare ponzi schemes......
Hahaha...do you have their number, I would gladly accept a paycheck to joust with you witless fools all day.....sorry, douche I do this for the pleasure of seeing how little competition I have in my effort to move up in socio-economic status......the more idiots like you out there he less resistance there will be in the climb upwards, I've already gone from homeless broke and bankrupt to somewhere in the lower end of the top quintile......and I work everyday to get a little higher...thanks for being lazy worthless hacks and not getting in my way...I appreciate it.
First. I dont see any substantiation anywhere for your claim that 2/3 of them are self made. Absolutely none.
Second. How old are most of these 'self-made' billionaires anyway? Only 11 are under 40, 43 are under 50, only 137 (total) are under 60. It is still possible to become a billionaire through hard work and perseverance and a little luck. But its not easy as it was 30 years ago. When most of these Forbes 400 were making their billions. These people have benefited from govt deregulation and tax cuts. These people lived in times when no one was clamoring to shut down Social Security, cut back Medicare and reduce public services. These people often did things to make their money which would now be considered illegal.
Third. There was more of a 'free market' back in those days. Upwards of 2/3 of the mortgage market nationwide is now controlled by about 5 banks. These are such examples in practically every field of Industry.
Fourth. People are not asking to be billionaires or millionaires. People are asking to be able to afford food, clothing and shelter without having to be suffer under back breaking debt. People are asking that the Govt not shut down the programs that the so called 'self made billionaires' once took advantage of to earn their riches.
$400 out of a world population of 6-7 billion.Polution,Wars,starvation.and lookie here at what the so called forbe's 400 can do.You have Shit for brains.
Yeah, I met one of those 'self made Millionaires' Tim Durham...look him up, probably be spedning the next 100 years in prison.
Oh, and he really wasn't self made, that's just what he told everyone!
Well let's talk USA history 3 ways to make money.
1.) inherit it 2.) steal it 3.) work for it
By 'self made' we have to conclude the OP is talking about 'working', trouble is its virtually impossible in the USA to get rich by working, 99% of all great wealth was made in real-estate by buy&hold basically fixing up houses and renting and working into apartments, .. a game we used to call 'monopoly'.
But today a millionaire is NOTHING, today its about billionaires and in order to be a billionaire you got to have government protection and you got to have MOB(mafia) connection, that's why today 90% of the world self-made billionaires are in RUSSIA.
What is exactly the point of this OP? 99% of the folks here are un-employable by definition, and have not a clue about starting their own biz.
I will say one thing on this subject to get rich in real-estate you must have time, .e..g. you can't have a job, the reason to be an entrepreneur is to have lots of time so you can work your real-estate, that sad fact is most people are poor because they spend too much time working.
who the hell cares about people on forges list? Ows is about the regular everyday person that just wants to have a job. JOBS no body gets rich by working most people dont care.. they just want to live . why are those people ruthless? because they probably got rich off low wages and outsourcing.
maybe then those people should develop skills and experience and merit a job, then work harder still to merit a better job, instead of whining and demanding that someone give them more than they are worth, because they feel entitled to it.....sorry, time to grow up, the world doesn't owe you shit, it's your responsibility to earn it......it's time you fucking fools learned that simple lesson...
your ignorant.. people have done all that.. then the 1% shipped all the jobs over seas.. you must be what? 15 yrs old? people that have proven thier skill and worked for 20 years are the ones im talking about 14 million jobs have been eliminated. are you stupid?
no, apparently YOU are......I guess you think a job is a possession
what do you think the result of ever increasing regulation, and the highest (combine federal and state) corporate tax rate in the world, would do for industry and jobs? Do you think companies would be clamoring to open businesses here, or keep them open, so that they can surrender large shares of their income to the government?
I have worked for 20 years and am making more now than I ever have....because I have increased my skills across industry sectors and have proven myself to be one who gets the job done, without exception.....
Where do you get this 14 million job figure? a news story, or an academic hypothesis?
You do understand that the salad days of the US being the only industrialized nation with functioning infrastructure (the economic climate of the world from 1945 to the 1970's)...we have worldwide competition now, and we didn't keep our industrial infrastructure maintained, and now, with the burdensome regulation, and wages that are out of sync with market forces, it's easier for companies to build whole new facilities in other countries and then ship the products here.....
Are YOU so stupid to think business is a charity to provide jobs for people to lazy and uncreative to build their own enterprises and set their own tasks, and instead must stand in line with their hand out demanding that others provide them with tasks and pay them for those tasks amounts which exceed the market rate?
yeah, sorry...that philosophy is dead, and unless people wise up, so is the US....and there is no centralized government, or legislation powerful enough to make business do what you think they "should" because of some collectivist nonsense of "sharing"....which means those who work and produce share with those who can't be bothered to work, or those who's efforts are marginal at best...
YOU have obviously never managed people.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JH2rL4c4Wjs
we only have worldwide competition because we gave it to other countries.. did any one in another country start microsoft or apple??/ ibm or general electic,, ford anything?? can you name one freaking companies that did not start in america??? and we can take it all back.. we have to take it all back. yes the us is dead. due to ignorant selfish people that believe its ok to destroy your own country for personal gain. but its good to know that people like you realize this.. now america can stop thinking its a police force for the world as it cannot even support its own populace it surely cannot support police actions in every other freaking country that doesnt tow the line. start preaching that to your buddies.. or are you all for finacing death as opposed to financing american stability. you think you are smart.. but you cant see the big picture. you love this country for what you get out of it with no regard that you put nothing back. its got nothing to do with each individual obtaining wealth and everything to do with stabilizing a country, ensuring the domestic tranquility.f thats why its so wrong for the gov. to allow corporations to corner the market on money.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JH2rL4c4Wjs
50% of all Americans now live at or near the poverty level. That's over 150,000,000 people. That includes people with full time jobs, and multiple part time jobs. They must all be lazy and stupid, huh? Nope, nothing systemically wrong. It's all about 50% of the people having character problems. Yeah, sure, and I've got a bridge to sell you.
Time to wake up.
yes...it's time for THEM to wake up and change their attitude and philosophy....the one they have isn't working
You must really hate Americans to believe that 50% of all of them are as stupid and shiftless as you imply.
Those with the wealth who collapsed the economy, and put millions out of work, creating poverty in place of the middle class, are of sterling character, though, right?. Their attitude and philosophies of plunder are a real positive example to us all. They are the real Americans in your book.
Sociopath.
It was mostly the unions that trashed America
The unions MADE the American middle class, you twit.
The BANKS and WALL STREET trashed the economy, idiot.
Wrong, unions are bringing America to it's knees. As far as the banks go, some people borrowed money that they could never pay back and now you goons think it is the banks fault. Blah, blah, blah
Wow, you are a complete moron. You have absolutely no idea how the economic collapse happened, yet you blow smoke out of your ass about it.
Stay asleep, idiot, but try not to talk in it.
OWS is about the redistribution of wealth. Take from the working man that scratched for everything he made and put it in the hands of the low life park setting punks
THe 1% is about redistribution of wealth, from the bottom to the top. Exxon is about the redistribution of wealth, from the taxpayer to them. Same with the Koch Brothers. Same with with those billionaires that pay lower rates of taxes than the middle class. What OWS is about is STOPPING the redistribution of wealth and power and and STOPPING the destruction of democracy.
yeah...the wealthy collapsed the economy and purposely eroded the customer base that made, and keeps, them wealthy.....
that's what happened....
fucking retard...
That's exactly what happened.
it wasn't the foolish decisions of those who took out payday loans, pawnshop loans, high interest credit cards, no down payment home loans, and spent most of their time watching American Idol, and other reality TV, while eating processed foods that made them fat and lazy, while they spent their income on cars they couldn't afford, bigger TV's than they needed, boats, motorcycles, jet ski's, and other crap instead of saving it for the future......they wanted to "appear" affluent, instead of saving and becoming affluent......
they had no hand in the collapse of the economy, I guess......it was just the rich forcing them to do all those things......
you people are fucking insane.....Is ANYTHING your fault? Or is your entire life and all your failures the fault of someone, or something else....
All that spending created the boom. Not the collapse. The collapse was caused by the greedy hoarding their profits.
The wealthy collapsed the economy by virtue of their stupidity, extreme shortsightedness, and greed, and with the knowledge that they were too big to fail. The American PEOPLE suffered the consequences. Great example of CHARACTER, moron.
So 266 people where able to get rich in a corrupted system? Whoo hooo!!! Praise the lord and pass the ammunition,. America is the land of the free!
You do realize that 266 people in a population of 300 millions is still like one in a million?? Why not a system where everyone is able to live in basic comfortn and those so motivated can move beyond that? Why are you so against a more balanced system of human organisation???
I'm glad you brought that up......just using your figures and the "one in a million" statement, those odds are better than the powerball jackpots so many attempt to win each week, and in the case of the Forbes list the payoff is a Billion or more, the largest powerball jackpot was just north of 300 million.....so, I guess those odds aren't so bad...
But, there is more to it than that...the IRS also monitors the 400 highest earning Americans each year, and keeps statistics on them and in the 16 years between 92-07 in the latest analysis there were 3472 persons who made the list at some point during that time.....including 2515 who made the list only once, 897 who made the list between 2-10 times, and 7 who made the list every year.....and these number don't account for those who made the list from 2008-2011.....so the odds are now somewhere near one in 90 thousand that a person becomes one of the 400 Richest Americans at some point in their life.......
The odds of winning the Powerball jackpot: 1 in 175,223,510
The odds of winning a slot machine jackpot: 1 in 262,144
The odds of dying in a plane crash: 1 in 10 million
The odds of dying from a snake bite or bee sting: 1 in 100K
The odds of dying in an earthquake: 1 in 132K
The odds of dying from a dog attack: 1 in 148K
so....you are more likely to become one of America's 400 richest people than any of these other things........seems like pretty good odds to me?
You are a dip-sht. We do not need to run our society like a gambling parlor. When you introduce democracy to the system, people will vote for more equality. You know, most of them, your statistical outliers, have no chance when their vote counts just the same as the rest of us. They will be hard pressed to convince a majority of people to let them use a corrupted system of laws to steal more for themselves again, and again.
It is a one time change that will never allow a return to 1 percent rule.
Take your socialist bandwagon elsewhere
Perhaps it is you who is in the wrong place? This site is about righting the balance in our social systems, the mix of capitalism and socialism in our economic and societal structures. You can not have one without the other. It take two wings to fly right.
That is a big NO. Our Country needs to stay the way it is now and if you guys want socialism / communism then park your tents in another Country
Sorry, we are not leaving!
"Our Country needs to stay the way it is now" Really? You see the country as PERFECT? Nothing should change? Damn you are 'conservative', hopelessly clinging to a lost mythical past,. but some of us who are more progressive do see the flaws, and will work to fix them. Why against progress? What are you afraid of??
I along with over 75% of Americans do not want socialism. It does not work in some other Countries and will not work here either
We have socialism, it is mixed with our market-system!
Private companies build cars and sell them, and yet they drive on socialist roads. The market is useless without a balance of socialist systems that work for everyone.
you are pissing in the wind, loser.......the world of losers will never rule, as the production of usable goods could never be organized by most of them.....most people are sheep, by choice, and wouldn't/couldn't lead or create if their lives depended on it.....they prefer the safety of marginal living and wasted effort.......keep dreaming of your socialist utopia though.....
the sad part of it is, with a little effort most could succeed and live a comfortable life, or more.....they just choose to believe the nonsense that you believe, and in believing never try for more, or something better.......
You sure like to characterize a great many people you know literally nothing about as "losers". This is a clear sign that you are unable to make an actual argument, to support you claims with factual evidence. It is the weak intellect that resorts to childlike name-calling, and hates the messenger and neglects the message.
Are all the rabid free-marketers this infantile? I see little reasoned arguments from your camp, just boisterous claims, insults, and no actual reasoning.
It is no fun to have a battle of wits with the unarmed.
I've already made my argument, and YOU are here commenting on it.....I can back up any claim you like...do you have specific one in mind, the problem with you witless fools is you never make any direct rebuttal, it's always philosophical disagreement against factual account, ad hominem, or single case examples applied to the larger group.......all logical fallacies...
The reasoning of free markets is simply in the results.....do you like the products and services around you, do you like the fact that human being no longer have to spend every moment of their lives minding their shelters, defending against physical predators and searching for food? thank capitalism and free markets for that......do you like the ability to move freely about at your own whims, it was a free market capitalist who designed, organized the production, marketed and sold the means of that transport....how about grocery stores and clothing stores as a means to feed and cloth you.....that was a free market capitalist too.....
amazing how much life would be different without the influence of free markets.......isn't it?
The results of unregulated capitalism/corporatism are a society addicted to cheap oil that is running out, people going into bankruptcy to pay medical bills in a for-profit health system, growing inequity everywhere, and unsustainable food, water, and energy systems.
The idea of endless growth on a finite planet is illogical, and that is the basis of your mythic total 'free' market. All these things you list as products of 'free markets' are dependent on socialist systems, you mention vehicles and yet you neglect the roads they drive on? This is the same for all things, interdependent, or in the case of corporatism, parasitic and exploitative.
How do you not see that ALL economic systems are a balance of market-based and socialist elements. Corporate capitalism is broken model and it is on the way out.
Do you judge genius by someone's bank account ? Because someone has succeeded at money that somehow makes them good now? Life is temporary, I don't care what may be in my bank account when I die. You think that inventing a hand held device that distracts people from reality is genius I think it's idiocy but you judge it to be a good thing because of profits and don't care about the ethical or moral circumstances that brought that amount of profit (like a factory in China where people are committing suicide where that device is made.) If my failure is not being a wealthy entrepreneur than your perception has been deeply damaged. It's up to us we can make someone wealthy or employ slave labor to really get those margins up? - You decide what legacy do you want to leave on this planet. How about here lies a good person broke until the end but he/ she never harmed another person in the making of their own life.
I love that analysis......no, sitting around in a public park shitting in plastic bags, stewing in your own filth, smoking pot and whining that everyone is out to get you and that you have no chance is the guidepost for being a good person and a genius......
What is the legacy that YOU want to leave this planet? is it the innovation of human effort that allowed more time for humanities, like art and philosophy, or the organization and multiplication of effort that the innovation in mechanical effort and machinery that allow a single man to do the work of many?.....those are just two things that those greedy capitalists did to earn a profit while advancing man into new heights of achievement and evolution......
a "good" person who lived of the efforts of others and expected others in society to provide them with all their needs whether those things were earned or not......that is more of the reality of the last sentence in your foolish statement.....
"Good" is making the world a better place......maybe you would like to return to the world where just providing enough food to eat took an entire day's effort, or the effort of many day's, in a feast or famine exercise.....it was only a bit over a century ago when men lived largely like this......is that the society you crave?
It was the capitalist motive that brought us out of that existence....not a bunch of lazy shits whining in a public park that someone else owes them something for being born......
What brought about "A better place" was democratic protest. I hate that you have these strange images of protesters as infidels - isn't protesting the foundation upon which democracy exists and was built? - NOT built by rich entrepreneurs; if they had their way do you really think we'd have ever had a middle class? Not to mention monopolies stifle innovation and creativity- they sue for infringements, drive out competitors and wipe them out of existence - they seek uniformity and profit and they still want to operate in the same way without ever providing something better or advancing. They want their workers to conform wear their uniforms and keep their mouths shut. They have also begun to patent genes so only they can research certain diseases. Monopolizing research!
So you are aware - I'm not in the park - I'm at my full time job. I'm doing what I can from the out-skirts because my pay scale hasn't risen in 12 years though the cost of living keeps on sky-rocketing. I understand the plight of those that can't get jobs because after 17 years of working I left a shit for pay job risking everything seeking a better opportunity but it took me 4 months of searching every day all day long and a vast amount of luck to re-land one - I sent out 300 resumes and went on 30 interviews and couldn't get hired at any major corporation not even Staples (even though my experience was great and I'm a young professional clean cut woman). I expect no one to take care of me- 24 percent of my income goes to taxes and I get no write-offs. I've been to the doctor twice in 5 years because though I pay for insurance co-pays are too high. You assume that I siphon off of society when I am an active contributor; like everyone on this site. I'm also in my mid-thirties. I don't have a degree because I can't qualify for a loan and make too much for financial aid. Every day I worry that my car won't make it to work an hour away and that I will end up homeless if I have no way to get there. No one said life is easy (though it is for many who were born into better circumstances) I am a worker - my problem is one percent of the population is hording the world's abundance for themselves and causing others to work like slaves while having no upward mobility so a small percent can feast like kings.
I believe the economy must pay it forward or it will lie dead in the sand you see employees are also consumers.
So tell since you know so much - how if I can't go to school, can't get a business loan, and can't even afford food really which has caused me to become weak and thin, I can suddelly rise above my circumstance (win the lottery?).
We don't have Capitalism - the system we currently have is Corporatism (two seperate things entirely.) Corporatism is the same thing as Communism only instead of the Communist pigs the Corporate pigs are doing the exact same thing (controlling the government, controlling what they demand from us in taxes, and profiting off of our existence.)
So Aside from my own plight the larger things that I think about are the fact that millions of people are starving or will starve to death over the next decade despite the excess of food that is produced by a few monopolies who are now patenting seeds and further driving up the cost. I worry about American companies doing land grabs in resource rich nations and driving people off their land while partnering with despot regimes to do it or to to make cheap products and use the people as a slave labor force, I worry about the elderly in my country being left alone and left to choose between over-priced medications and food. I worry that the voting machines are made by a major corporation that gives political contributions and partners with banks as a portion of their business. I worry that my politicians are selling out the people they are supposed to represent for their own financial gain.
We're not lazy shits - you see -it takes effort to keep pitching this fight and waging this war - because we are fighting a power and propaganda machine that is far worse than anyone has ever seen - even worse because in this scenario the people are under the illusion that they are free. How do you release them from that spell so they can see what is being taken from them, how do you convince them they must join this fight? When Wallstreet throws the nation into anarchy with their roulette table and the dollar is downgraded we won't have to worry about convincing - but I would like to prevent it before it reaches that stage. We are the ones seeking stability and safety - we are the ones providing logic and compassion.
Slammer man would rather die wealthy than "good". Just hope he doesn't put that same value on his children hope they are more important than his bank account.
OCCUPY CARES ABOUT THINGS LIKE THIS - WE ARE THE VOICE FOR THE VICTIMS OF THE ONE PERCENT
http://www.google.com/search?q=starvation&hl=en&rlz=1C1GGGE_enUS346US346&prmd=imvns&source=lnms&tbm=isch&ei=PndiT_XMAoL50gH-mamfCA&sa=X&oi=mode_link&ct=mode&cd=2&ved=0CBIQ_AUoAQ&biw=1536&bih=772
Democratic protest? tell me please one instance where that got anything done?
and the founders of this nation went to great lengths to insulate our system from "mob-rule" democracy......we are a Constitutional Republic, NOT a democracy.......
This country WAS built by entrepreneurs, not "rich" at first.....but many became so, and many did not.......
those who battled the elements to settle the plains and strove to the western shores didn't do so by democratic protest, they did so by reasoned effort and a hope for the opportunity to create their lives as the chose.....not to "democratically" take from one group to suite their desires.....
Tell me how our economy doesn't "pay it forward" companies provide employees with the facilities, the machinery, the organization, the system, and often even the clothing to perform the task they are paid to do......employees aren't expected to "figure it out", they are given specific repetitive tasks to complete in a set span of time and compensation is agreed upon before the contract (written, or implied) is agreed upon......a person certainly has the choice to create their own enterprise instead of searching for prefabricated employment provided by others.....a person could choose to accept the agreed upon pay-for-time, or create their own enterprise and instead work toward pay-for-results that other businesses get before they compensate the principle task completing workers....
THAT is a choice, maybe not a choice people would like to make, but a choice nonetheless...
As for your personal situation, I would ask why you would leave one job without the prospects for another, and why you would spend 17 years in a self-described "shit job", and why you didn't or wouldn't use some of your income from that job to take some sort of continuing education.....
One of the things that is unfortunate is the fact that being responsible isn't stressed to the young, it DOES become more difficult and more complicated to make changes later in life, but it is still not impossible.....
I don't know if you have roommates, rent, or own......there is the possibility of roommates to defray costs, and what about public transit to save on transport costs?
I am not making any suggestions I haven't done myself....and I know it is difficult....I spent a year with a PO Box as my home/mailing address, and using my gym membership for personal hygiene while living out of a vehicle so I could save the money for the down payment on my house....and I did that at age 38-39
in the end, your solutions are specific to your situation, and the opportunities are out there, but they are usually cloaked in difficult change or great effort.....
I wish you luck....
As for how I would rather die, you are way off base.....I have many friends of your political persuasion, those who think the "rich" are awful heartless bastards and that the government should protect and ensure that everyone has enough...the funny thing about it is that when one of them needs help with something, like work on their house or car, or help moving something, painting, shoveling snow, mowing grass, etc, etc....it's NEVER the so-called "compassionate" socially conscience friends who come to their aid or even offer to help...it's me, that heartless conservative who contributes more time in a few months to those in need than most who claim to be so caring have tendered in years of knowing them....
don't make the mistake that "the rich" or conservatives aren't there to help.....most charitable contributions, both time and money, come from them......
You addressed none of the greater societal issues at hand in your response. Do you believe that Americans must live out of a car and shower at gyms to be able to save? Is that the American reality now...as for school - the costs are not worth the outcome any longer. In the end going to school to get out and work for a major corporation that does horrible things with your talents and efforts - is a waste. For many money is not the end all be all of existence - people have other motivations that you can't ever fathom. I had no choice but to stay in jobs because I had no car and walked to work for years I had to live close to my place of employment. I've only ever worked for Republicans and given the way they treated their employees I have a fine idea of how they operate, and they certainly don't value or reward hard work. I worked for one CEO at Countrywide insurance (Gary Vallo, a self-described neo-con) who spouted a greed is good speech while explaining why he was cutting employee pay benefits and vacation while the company was doing more profitable than ever and the employees were more productive than ever his answer was because that's what the other insurance companies were doing and they had to follow suit. I also had to listen to a greed is good speech from a man who was tan from all his vacations every time he held a meeting. The employees were running around like crazy closing every old account that we had had (good long term paying customers they found reasons to cancel) because he decided that the business should only cover luxury clients. I had no raise for two years straight and after I boxed up about 300 policies and of 80 pound boxes I was rewarded with 2 weeks severance. I also worked for Sears doing collections - when 9-11 occurred they continued to collect in New Jersey and New York (probably because they figured everyone was standing by their phones expecting calls so they would answer when they normally would have let it go to voice mail) - these companies have no thought or regard for being part of society - their goal is to feed of off it like parasites. They are not citizens or people. My experiences are different from yours - I am a highly ambitious hard working person - and all it ever got me was more work and lay-offs and made me more cynical. Maybe it's because I'm younger than you and when I entered the workforce the downsize mantra had officially taken hold. Roomates don't defray costs they cost you more when they skip on rent, ruin the apartment or steal from you. I don't wish to enter into financial relationships with strangers. Why should full time working professional woman should have to live with roomates for the rest of their lives (or wait until they meet a man?) just to survive (guess that is just part of the new America too maybe we can rent cages like they do in China or hell just live in bunks at work to save on gas.) I've done the whole defray costs, live with roomates, pinch every penny, try to take classes, worked two full time jobs, but never ended up with any amount to save because then my car would break down, or I'd owe on taxes, or registration, or get sick and need to pay a co-pay, or food or gas goes up, or I'd be laid off again. Meanwhile I make the same pay I did when I started out. My particular pay has actually gone down because jobs in my field have gone overseas to India. When your pay doesn't remotely measure up to the cost of living - there is no way to save something will always push you back. This is the reality for millions of Americans. Not your reality because you are probably not from my generation. Charity starts at home how about paying your employees enough to eat? The rich love to have these big fancy charity dinners for a cause they don't really care about and amounts more as a tax pay-off I always wonder if the dinner costs more than the donations. But they overlook the reality under their noses and that is that many of their employees work hard but struggle until they die or get sick - their attitude is that they chose that reality and could change it if they really wanted to. I would love to start my own business unfortunately getting a business loan is not a reality that exists anymore unless you have enough collateral (which means you are wealthy to begin with). At any rate I work for a good employer now - he's a democrat - and it's not him my payscale is still well below the cost of living even though he pays more me more than any Republican corporation would ever have been willing to do. He is also thoughtful about society and his business decisions aren't made on the stock market but rather innovation - he is still hiring employees while the rest of wallstreet is busy downsizing and selling off and shipping jobs overseas (which he could easily do but chooses not to because he understands that if you treat eomlpyees well and pay it forward you may not see immediate profits but you will in the long term). That's if Wallstreet doesn't kill the entire economy first and destroy everyone in the process.
You see occupy we could all just live in cages for a few years and save our money to get ahead (well that's until the cost of cages costs half our monthly salary like it does in China.) Brought to you by American companies willing to use employees as slaves while partnering with a COMMUNIST regime
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are they all white men?
actually no......why? are you a racist?
what percentage are white men ?
is this a global or national list ?
USA, and it doesn't give a "race" breakdown......I ask again, are you a racist? most who look for racism are....
http://www.forbes.com/forbes-400/list/#p_1_s_arank_All%20industries_All%20states_All%20categories_
now that is one of the dumbest comments i have seen on this site - and there are some really dumb ones
I seen mostly white as examples of "self" made "men"
I ran into a slew af advertisements on that link
Oprah is one example of a non-man
Times were less corrupt in some way. Or these people were so corrupt they were able to work in a system that most people would morally not want to partake in. Look at the resignation of the Exec from Goldman Sac. Some people have morals & virtues & others do not.
I was under the assumption that 100% of Forbes 400 were self made but I never really looked into it more. How did the remaining third of the Forbes 400 come to be?
some have inherited wealth, or a combination
it's not about winning or losing, getting rich or being poor. it's about using money to manipulate the government in ways that distort democracy. things like backing candidates with incredible amounts of money that the only way to compete is to also have incredible amounts of money. the result is a contest between campaign financiers.
The figures from the US census bureau and the IRS, hardly left wing organizations, demonstrate that socio/economic mobility in the USA is the lowest in the developed world. Chances are that if you are born poor, you will stay poor, and so will your children and your children's children. Your citation of exceptions to the system does not disprove that there is a systemic problem, but only that there are always a few exceptions. The lack of socio/economic mobility in the USA is thoroughly documented. That it is far greater here than in the rest of the developed world is also thoroughly documented. As the saying goes, you are entitled to your having your own opinions, but not your own facts.
A few can climb out of a lower station in life to become one among the Forbes 400 (264 to be precise), but the reality of it is that nearly all will not. If hard work and determination were all that were required to become extremely wealthy there would be a good deal more than 400 names. Mark Zuckerberg, Steve Jobs, Bill Gates - those type of people - don't come along everyday, which is why they're notable.
The people who are putting their lives on hold for this movement certainly don't seem to lack for the ability to stick to a commitment, to be creative and thoughtful. Many (I would think 'most') have college degrees. I really don't think they've determined themselves as 'losers' because of their rejection of a system that has scammed them and so many others. These aren't folks who are looking for instant gratification, These are people who know they're in for a long, hard fight. These people are pissed!
IRS and Census bureau?......let's have those figures...
I gave you the links to the articles that refer to them. The charts in those articles are from them. You want to look up all the IRS and census bureau data, they have their own websites, and you know perfectly how to get to them. All the numbers are public.
so "I" have to verify your assertions? cute......
I think you don't know the figures and are simply making this up.....will you respond with another call for me to accept your assertions without proof, and to check them myself...or will you provide a backup for your assertions?
I gave you the links. You rejected them without reading the articles or research papers. Those papers themselves contain citations to other papers and other research from a variety of sources that you are free to follow. But, of course, since you refuse to read the papers gave you direct link to, you will never know what those sources are, or what research those papers contain. It is your willful ignorance at play here, not my failure to provide proof. I have provided that proof in abundance.
law should be written in its full form when passed through congress
laws should not be amending other laws without bringing the whole of the other law forward
Thank you for once again posting something that has no relationship whatsoever with the discussion at hand.
WTF does you post have to do with socio/economic mobility? DO you just post things at random?
The purpose of this post, and others like it, is to shame the poor so that they stop asking for things.
Absolutely. These assholes only seem to understand their own mythology of shame and judgement. Notice how he refuses to look at any fact that might undermine the myth.
I'm just sick of it. It is so morally wrong. Wrong, wrong, wrong! And, it's not going to work! I'm not going to stop fighting for the poor because of this kind of utter crap. In fact, it makes me want to fight harder. LOL!
because congressional law looks like this
any brunt of an idea should be written up front
.
what links ?
This is not a discussion of law, but economic realities. I provided link to papers to Slammerwhohasbeenbannedbefore in another thread, and he started this thread in response to them.
You are really making no sense at all.
law has plenty to do with who owns what
obviously the link needs to be here
here is the congressional text sight
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c112:H.R.358:
no, you didn't provide any links to census or IRS data...only position papers and opinion articles....
I see you are going to continue to deflect the posting of sources from the IRS and Census, I think we'll just call you a liar and be done with it......in proper debate you don't get to make assertions and then challenge your opponent to disprove them.....that is a logical fallacy
don't you have anything better to do? your defend the rich routine is very boring by now - very predictable and more than a bit stupid - like yourself - don't you agree?
if it's so boring, why don't YOU fuck off......
Take your own advice.
nah...I like you socialists when you get your panties in a twist...
your first good idea
I posted research papers that include that data and show their sources. You won't read those papers. Either do so or shut the fuck up.
you provide the sources you claim to have or fuck off.....and prove conclusively that you're talking out of your ass....
I provided them on the thread you didn't like and you started this one in response.
Have you read them? No?
Then piss off, hypocrite.
no census or IRS links were provided
PERIOD!
you are deflecting the fact you don't have, or know how, to provide IRS or Census data that proves your assertion...
you're just accepting the conclusions of others without research, because it says what you want to believe ......
The IRS AND census data were in the papers, asshole. BUt you refuse to read them. As were the citations.
The deflection is ALL yours.
What links? I cant find them anywhere in this thread. Please provide them so others can judge for themselves.
They were on another thread, This thread was started by the OP as a protest against the last one he was on.
Here are some (They might not be the same ones, as there are dozens)
http://www.economicmobility.org/assets/pdfs/EMP_American_Dream_Key_Findings.pdf
http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2011/11/economic-mobility-is-%E2%80%9Crags-to-riches%E2%80%9D-still-possible/
http://www.theprogressiveprofessor.com/?p=13184
http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/2006/04/b1579981.html
http://www.urban.org/publications/406722.html
http://www.mitpressjournals.org/doi/abs/10.1162/00346530152480199
http://ftp.iza.org/dp1993.pdf
http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/282292/mobility-impaired-scott-winship
https://www.russellsage.org/publications/persistence-privilege-and-parenting
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/05/us/harder-for-americans-to-rise-from-lower-rungs.html?pagewanted=all
http://economistsview.typepad.com/economistsview/2012/02/is-intergenerational-economic-mobility-lower-now.html
http://www.chicagofed.org/digital_assets/publications/chicago_fed_letter/2012/cflapril2012_297.pdf
http://www.economicmobility.org/assets/pdfs/EMP_American_Dream_Key_Findings.pdf
It should be noted that one of the link is the an article in the National Review, the conservative GOP organ, and another is to the Chicago Fed, hardly a left wing group. Even Rick Santorum has talked about it in exactly the way I did, and he is hardly what you could call a left winger.
THere are other articles as well, and they show that about 90% of people born into an economic quintile didn't move, either up or down, more that one quintile in a lifetime, and that the issue is intergenerational. I can't find those articles at the moment.
Um the families that own the Federal Reserve make sure their names don't appear on any lists perhaps? Excuse me, there is a bio in Forbes telling you which one of these self-made people was and was not a trust fund baby with all the right connections to get start up capital to launch a start up business? You see much goes into acquiring start-up capital and getting backing for whatever dream job or business a person wants to start. Whether it is the IVY League Schools and great fraternities you belonged to or which golf clubs your parents are members of etc. Take your lies of upward mobility and stuff them. The reality is for every good idea that acquires backing, there are hundreds more that a squashed before they even begin. Gifted children are the best and and brightest. More often than not they end up being a slave trying to make some inbred high society snot a killing off whatever harebrained idea they got backing for so stuff it!
I'm still not impressed. Although it is true many individuals start their own business, that is how this country is run...Farmers have their own businesses, or rather had, until Monsanto came to town, then there were the Mom and Pop stores, until the chains became, Inc. (buy outs or pushed out)...then we can go on and on ..each business that was ever begun was begun by individuals...self-made or whatever, but people have done this for centuries...Now here is the secret of Forbes magazine: Billionaires make their billions of dollars by developing a successful business and later on taking it to the public. By listing their own businesses to the public, they sell literally millions of shares to the public and the valuation of their own shares go high to a Billion Dollar. All the Forbes Billionaires are Billionaires by this way only. But remember, this is money that is in the markets (Wall Streets, etc.) only! So....if Wall street fails, or the Global economy fails from these Oracles, then so do the Billionaires...No great mystery there!!
it's funny how you tell the story of the "big" players of industry, agriculture, and retail.....yet you forget to mention the genesis of their creation....
Federal, State, and Local regulations that favor the larger operation that can spread those costs over a larger base of revenue/expenditure.....
and, there are STILL people, despite your nay-saying, who overcome all odds and become successful, both reasonably and massively.....
There have always been obstacles, and those who want to protect their interests, even in the so-called "golden era" of the 50's and 60's that many on the left point to as the perfect time in this country...and yet people created fortunes, even in the days of the vertical trusts around the turn of the century people created new fortunes....
it's how you think, and what you do, not the circumstances outside....
and if you wish to think otherwise, I won't stop you......you will just be one less person in the competition...I'm ok with that...
Get real!!! One look at Black wall street in Oklahoma will let you know that my so-called nay saying is a reality most of you are afraid to look at! This is nothing new, and continues to this day, only it is done with the rose colored glasses of many like you backing this systematic destruction of individual rights and ability to create their own wealth and foundations of cultural identity!! A picture is worth a thousand words!! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenwood,_Tulsa,_Oklahoma
The hatred and jealousy from not only pale individuals who lived around that area, but with the backing of the State and other members of the K who are part of this establishment did not want to see individuals progress destroyed it.. Get off your f*in high horse..... The 50's and 60's was the end of Japanese concentration camps where all their worldly possessions, assets, financial accounts were confiscated. Then in the 60's came the Civil Rights movements, whereas a nation within a nation was asking for an end to the lynching of men whose only crime (at that time) was their color. The lands, the farms of these people were taken away, lives destroyed, destruction of families who tried to make a life for themselves in this "land of milk and honey" yet, whose annihilation meant and still means nothing to your type. Riddle me this...what was the very first , no correction, selling and buying spree on Wall Street? Now, there is the true story of this great nation of ours sonny!!! Here's a hint----Paris Peace Treaty (PEACE TREATY of 1783) Article #7. So what most don't realize is that this treaty has never been rescinded, nor has the names of the property ever been changed except by recognition of their actual origin, flag and nationalities!!! Your way of life is bullshyt and you and your kind care about nothing and no human life except what you see on that big board..... Now, your own kind are suffering and you all still don't give a damn.... Your kinds attitudes and misinformation make me laugh!!! How long do you think this nightmare will continue??? Now,,,,argue with those truths since this whole era is bigger than all of you and your kind...Thank God!!!
Please, define "self made." It doesn't sound possible for a human. Unless you are somehow privy to a new method of conception.
Like everything you say I'm sure this is another lie.
I am sure more than 2/3 were given a trust fund of some sort.
actually it's less than 1/3 that had any inheritance or special advantage, but, I understand the need for you to think that...to back up your own excuses.....
Care to source any of that at all, of course people like Bill Gates wouldn't be on the list right?
Nor anybody that has gone to Stanford or Harvard or Yale on their own dime right?
Because if you think those are regular folks you don't know regular folks.
You are truly a fucking idiot. What does "self-made" mean? Look a little further into just how they amassed these fortunes. And think, for once. Just try to THINK.
SHhhh, be quite, don't upset the argument.
"2/3's of the Forbes 400 are entirely self made"
(1) Source?
(2) Criteria?
(3) BULLSHIT.