Forum Post: 18 arrested as Seattle May Day protests face police brutality
Posted 10 years ago on May 3, 2013, 11:42 a.m. EST by quantumystic
(1710)
from Memphis, TN
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
Police used "flash bangs" and pepper spray against some protesters. Olivia One Feather of Covington joined the crowd Wednesday night because she wanted to see how police handled the protest. She said she wasn't impressed, adding that she was pepper sprayed in the face while trying to video record officers. Of the protesters, she said, "They're doing what we need to do to stand up to ourselves. These are our streets and we have the right to take them."
http://news.yahoo.com/may-day-rally-turns-violent-seattle-032255547.html
i am sorry but anyone suggesting that police tactics are alright or it's the anarchists fault is missing the point entirely. when coca-cola murders union organizers that is okay but a few anarchists have had their fill and react and we must crucify them. wake the fuck up these anarchists are the only ones standing up for your rights in the face of overwhelming odds. everyone of us owes them a debt of gratitude for having the courage to fight back god damn it. wake the fuck up you fucking sheeple.
Functional is important. If they were here discussing what they were going to do and how they were going to do it and outlining their expectations, then I could perhaps make a snap judgement supporting your position unconditionally.
However, they were not here discussing their protest plans, which I'm fairly certain had no legal process associated with it. Which means nothing happens, So this,
"standing up for your rights"
Might not be what they are doing.
The entire movement may be used to create ineffective social action while secret elements become violent which cops use to justify abusive suppression and media misrepresents as a successful end to a riot. Suddenly the msm presents the protest as an abuse of rights, while NO LEGAL PROCESS was invoked, so msm successfully misrepresents what the people are trying to do and who they are, what they are about.
The police tactics are not alright but why are these protests staged when it is well known from the Oakland occupy that there is a violent group infiltrating protests giving them a bad name? We should fight for a court that will properly hear the civil rights violations, not continue to provide what is used as reason for the violations.
Their violence doesn't win you anything but a moment of satisfaction. It's not going to improve your position, win followers, change minds, nothing.
Au contraire mon frère, but hey don't take my word for it. "Of the protesters, she said, "They're doing what we need to do to stand up to ourselves. These are our streets and we have the right to take them.""
If you feel you have enough support at present to meet your goals or that their activities will attract more support then fine. I'm only offering an opinion, each person makes their own decision.
The message on a handmade poster from France's 1968 uprising, and now on OWS shirts made by OWS silk screeners (for donations), complete with the image
"LA BEAUTE EST DANS LA RUE"
http://news.utoronto.ca/q-occupy-movement
~Odin~
Kingwell points out something that originates from the dumbing down, but he might not know that.
"Why is dissent subject to demands for clear and comprehensive justification when the very actions that dissent wants to bring into question are not? That's called ideological domination, and it needs to be called out, early and often."
He is correct, but if he doesn't know what "clear and comprehensive justification" is related to the secrecy that caused the conditions compelling the demands then he's only restating the obvious.
I originally put that link up for the sole purpse of showing the origins of the phrase La Beaute Est Dans La Rue, but like you reading that article made me think
The "clear...justification" used for the "dumbing down" of Americans was to change the 'natural order' of things
So that profits could reign supreme over human decency and everything else
~Odin~
There are clear indications it's not even as nice as that.
Socrates would ask, "but why profit?". I would say power, then fear and corruption.
Fear and corruption are fixations of the unconscious mind. By simply assimilating an understanding of that, we can offer a true end to the shortcomings of fear and corruption.
I may have worded it nice, a bit vaguely or to simply, but i do realize the detrimental consequences that have been wreaked onto us
Facing up to any of your shortcomings, (and realizing the human condition is flawed) in an honest way is the first step to overcoming them
~Odin~
Profit enables isolation and corruption. When we understand that it is fear causing the greed, using immense profit to attempt to provide protection, a capacity for isolation, and that all corruptions detract from the eternal meaning of life, love; then it will be possible to lure the elite from their empty future.
I do not really see how "fear is causing the greed", but the rest of it, i agree with
~Odin~
In that case corruption of greed is an escape from fear through amassing unreasonable wealth. We are controlled by unconscious patterns and fears we are not conscious of can dictate our decisions. Childhood conditioning plays a large rule.
I intervened in a strange fear lesson between a dying wealthy women and her 8 year old son, visiting for the last time. She was trying to teach him a special aspect of greed which is wanting more than you could ever use or need by hiding the denomination of folded bills after mixing a $20 in with $1's. The fear compulsion is passed on unconsciously in many cases.
After I pointed out to her what she was doing, she cried and thanked me. The boy was gratified. A poignant moment, which I then walked away from so the visit could proceed normally.
Then in that same light, a person who went through the Depression was usually more thrifty than a person who never experienced really difficult economic times
Greed of course is a more severe manifestation, than survival as it deals with "amassing unreasonable wealth."
~Odin~
Greed is an unconscious fear compulsion. A fear of not having everything desired, despite the consequences for others.
Sociopathic.
This is the reason discussion upon Constitutional intent is purifying to our groupings The malific power of the greedy has no way to use ill gotten material power to influence others because the manipulations of greed are useless when exposed in the universal light of the sacred principles underlying our rights and freedoms.
OK, at what level does violence stop being acceptable? When a store owner shoots someone destroying their property, when a cop shoots someone for hitting them with a bottle, when a violent protestor hurts or kills someone. Will it escalate? Maybe one of the punks thinks Timothy McVeigh had a good idea.
So where does it stop? When is enough violence too much? I’ll say for the hundredth time. Peace is the only way.
It is interesting to think that the European Anarchist are actually serious students, philosophers, who speak several languages, hold good degrees in classical education that generally would be considered impressive & mainstream to lawyers, US leaders, EU Leaders, and corporate Executives.
I'm impressed mostly by all the years of protests I have seen in the news over the last decade against WTO, G7, G20, and IMF.
Actually I am also impressed with the long hairs that were protesting seemingly non stop from Reagan days about US Policy in support of Apartide, supporing dictators as we probably did during Juntas in Chile, Argentina, Brazil, Uragauy,... and protesting covert actions in Latin America in El Salvador, Nicaragua, Chile.
But in general ... I'm not sure American Anarchist or some teenage guy supporting anarchy has the education. I might be the one uneducated in K-12 (yes, I went to kindergarten). But my life experience has been to meet people in Europe and Asia. I'm not sure why my education and intelligence is slower that it should have been. But clearly .... our government lies about war, covert actions, and the Long Hairs were right.
I think the US Anarchist should step up... tell the young guys to really study philosophy and classical education. You can nail me on this. I'm not an American-file. I'm not a Franco-file. The Spanish have a lot to answer for in the Raping of Central, South America, and the Carribean. The Catholic Church has a lot to answer for and seems to include the Jesuits (Hawaii).
But our Education & Culture does come from Europe. The language in Europe cuts off any predecessors from Central Asia, India, Pakistan, as far as Linguistics and History go. Much of Europe could owe its history and culture to people from outside of Europe.
Well, sorry that is all I know about history & language.
You ask for reasonable answers. There seems little debate here on "Code". Gun Ban seems to be "Code" for you are progressive. But... remember Europe didn't have guns to protect them from Hitler, Stalin, Mussolini, and the rest... the Vichy French Collaborators.
And so I don't expect the European Influence to ever suggest people buy or own guns. Killing with a gun is code for you are not a progressive in America or Europe.
The media has a policy or plan to suppress protests & suppress reports of protestors skirmishing with police. The don't want to advertise activism against the government.
But the do want to advertise selected gun violence. And terrorism which justifies their budget, their growth, their technology, their invasion of privacy, and their cutting individual & constitutional rights.
US Anarchist might feel the system work against them as all the property was divided up in an unsustainable way. All the free property is gone. No the corporate law and gun laws, and gun enforcement by police works against them. Heard of cattle wars in the wild west....
The value should be on people. We should not kill people for throwing bottles. We should publicize protests and let activism speak. We should trust the people of the country to vote & reason. Parents don't trust the general public and this is a problem. Big time.
Governments don't trust people to reason. So the keep secrets. They suppress the Truth. The avoid reporting to the public. This is wrong. The people form the government. We are supposed to provide democratic opportunities to vote. All the secrets in the Federal govt. prevent democracy.
Where the hell is the Federal Courts on this.
Peace & activism starting local is the way.
Transparency is the only way. Government has to Report to the people. The time is now for the Government to report, be transparent, to seek justice in Banking, to curb big corporations, to capitalize small business and create tariffs, and to get money out of Politics.
We are being decapitalized. We should protest this.
Police are minions. I'm not sure hurting them gets in the news and not sure it makes a difference. Police R employees.
Focused pressure on Seattle Government is better. Might be conservative neoliberal government... so constant grass roots investigations might be productive.
“Owe them a debt of gratitude” Bullshit. These people are nothing more than vandals, thugs and punks. I bet the people who’s windows they broke, who’s cars they damaged, who’s building they tried to set on fire aren’t grateful. I bet the eight cops they injured aren’t grateful. Why should I be thankful for a bunch of testosterone driven adolescents breaking private property and injuring people.
To answer your question, I believe they provoked the cops specifically so they could yell “police brutality” It’s a common ploy. Their aggression is not what OWS is about. These jerks do more damage to QWS than any corporation of conservative politician. Personally I consider them borderline terrorists.
Police agitators - you never considered that they were there on behalf of the police? And were not protestors at all? Never a consideration?
Nope it's not a consideration.
Of course not - your prejudice shows -and your support for OWS - Questionable - At Best.
Why? Because I don't like punks breaking other peoples property?
No because you would jump to blame protestors with no consideration that the trouble makers - were possibly plants.
Sorry, not much on conspiracy theories. Most of the time things are exactly how they appear.
ah, you might be true Believer. U feel that the priorities & focus of Rs & Ds does not support suppression?
U don't thing that we have capital Flight and curtailed investment in small business?
Is it a small thing that the US does not measure civilian cost of war in Iraq? No. And the Us does not measure openly capitalist cost of war in Iraq, nor the loss of businesses, homes, libraries, universities, history in museums or out... nor does it measure the casualties of US allies....
Rs & Ds cover up the cost of war, decapitalization, Capital Flight or leakage from the economy... the fact that small business is not expanding... the fact that TBTF bank don't lend to small businesses.... And that payroll tax takes a big hit under neoliberalism ... and that corporate tax is down as a percent of tax revenue... and of course capitalists prefer off shore trust funds for earnings deposits.
There is a coup. there is a conspiracy. The USA is dying. Democracy is dying.
or whatever...
True on most counts. However, I don’t think democracy is dying. I think it’s just getting its second wind. The only conspiracy I believe is that Johnson killed Kennedy.
How can you say that democracy is not dying Narley?
The corrupt elite have become masters at subverting democracy with the help of the corpporate owned MSM
And in the process people have become stupefied
Democracy was the only thing that kept capitalism in check
~Odin~
I'd like to convince you that there was a conspiracy against MLK. They didn't even investigate... then Coretta Scott King sued revealing the whole conspiracy, military, fire department, police, and federal investigators... looks like a slam dunk. Total corruption.
You could be right. I honestly haven’t followed the incident, so can’t give an opinion. All I know is what was in the newspaper.
Re; Martin Luther King Death...please see my respnse to Middleaged.
Another case of Democide.
http://occupywallst.org/forum/18-arrested-as-seattle-may-day-protests-face-polic/#comment-967586
Yeah, do an internet search for the Civil case filed by Corretta Scott King.
Another case of Democide. I think you've seen this before, 'Ma', but others may find it interesting.
At a 1999 court trial held in Memphis, the family of Rev. King accused elements of the U.S. government of complicity in King's death. After one month of hearings from 70 witnesses, a jury composed of six white and six black jurors took only one hour to find the U.S. government, the state of Tennessee, the city of Memphis, the Memphis police, and several individuals guilty of murdering King. Yet the mainstream media completely boycotted this trial. Thankfully, CBC (Canada's PBS) gave it some coverage. To see a six-minute CBC clip of this highly revealing trial
http://www.personalgrowthcourses.net/video/martin_luther_king_jr_mlk_assassination_video
Yes, I sent your link to a woman with inter-racial kids last year. At least I think her kids are inter-racial... I just don' t know all of her marriages and kids. She responded in the affirmative and was thankful.
I lost contact with the most senior government representative after that... but there are all sort of reasons why I don't fit into Washington DC and Public Service. But could be that Public Executives that might be friendly are... just not going to read opposition emails, opposing views, and not ... well the government IMS can tell executives that he is getting emails copied to other employees or addressee... so I guess I sent spam about Human Rights, Civil Rights, and Individual Rights... I am probably cut off for sending to a Public Executive info on MLK, Martin Luther King.
But we all expect that.
We just don't expect that the government, the firemen, the police, the national guard, and who ever else... would cover up murder.
Interesting video, Renneye. Thanks for posting it.
Thank you, dear man. It does me good knowing that information gets shared that way.
I can't keep my eyes open, thus...dreams beckon.
Goodnight, 'Ma'.
[-] 2 points by Middleaged (4483) 20 minutes ago
Yes, I sent your link to a woman with inter-racial kids last year. At least I think her kids are inter-racial... I just don' t know all of her marriages and kids. She responded in the affirmative and was thankful.
I lost contact with the most senior government representative after that... but there are all sort of reasons why I don't fit into Washington DC and Public Service. But could be that Public Executives that might be friendly are... just not going to read opposition emails, opposing views, and not ... well the government IMS can tell executives that he is getting emails copied to other employees or addressee... so I guess I sent spam about Human Rights, Civil Rights, and Individual Rights... I am probably cut off for sending to a Public Executive info on MLK, Martin Luther King.
But we all expect that.
We just don't expect that the government, the firemen, the police, the national guard, and who ever else... would cover up murder.
↥twinkle ↧stinkle permalink
No? How about conspiracies ? Not theories. Conspiracies. Like no coverage of the protests by MSM ? Like the government state and federal not speaking to the protests - but remaining silent.
How naive are you?
Whatever. Believe what you want..
need i remind you corporations are not fucking people.
You’re right corporations aren’t people. Need I remind you the broken windows, damaged cars are private property? How about the injured cops? Is it now OK to attack and injure people?
Gosh you sound like a supporter of the status-quo - you know - Situation Normal All Fucked Up.
and you sound like a terrorist anarchist. Are we even we the name calling now?
See there you go again - purveyor of elitist propaganda.
Sometime the truth is not pretty.
You it seems would not know the truth if it bit you.
I know OWS is supposed to be a peaceful movement. According to your post you do to. So what's your problem with me condeming the violence??
Nothing wrong with condemning violence.
Your problem is who you paste the blame upon.
Damn, I conceded several post back that I didn't know for sure if it was anarchists; and because of you were offended I stopped using the word anarchist. Then you continued to harress me so I used it once more to try to get you to stop trolling me.
So stop already. We really are on the same side.
Really? U make me wonder if that could be so. And you did a poor job of backing off of your blame game.
Well, If you believe in the ideals and principles of OWS, and think violence is wrong then we're on the same side. Please stop the insults.
Please stop asking for them.
injured cops? fuck the police. broken windows fuck the corporations.
OK, but don't cry when some store owner shoots you in the ass.
you owe radicals your very existence you torry scum.
I don’t owe my existence to a bunch of screwed up kids breaking shit and injuring people in Seattle.
U R a determined Idiot - Determined to be an Idiot - Congratulations - You Made It.
Hee hee, gotcha.
idiot
Oh wait, I think I'm behind in this name calling contest. Jerk!.
See, now somebody needs to get in there and grab those punk ass fucks and do a beat down because they truly screwed this up for all the protestors that weren't acting like nimrods.
wrong, what needs to happen is a few cops skulls need to get cracked and a few banks and multinationals need to burn then maybe they will think twice before they hijack our government and try to bash our skulls in.
[-] 1 points by quantumystic (1561) from Memphis, TN 1 hour ago
wrong, what needs to happen is a few cops skulls need to get cracked and a few banks and multinationals need to burn then maybe they will think twice before they hijack our government and try to bash our skulls in. ↥twinkle ↧stinkle reply permalink
Is that what you think happened? What do you think this showed them? Do you think that the head honchos of multinational corporations were frightened by broken windows in Seattle? Nine out of ten times it isn't their problem.
You are not a child anymore. You are not. The only people that will be truly harmed are local participants. So, not only did this put other protestors at risk at the time, it puts future protestors at risk. These are selfish acts.
I always wonder who it is that is behind actions like this. You know, like how the "anarchists" miraculously showed up in Egypt.
Look, if you and I are marching down the street and you decide that you want to throw bottles at the police and start breaking windows then we need to be clear on something. I don't have your back. All kinds of people come to protest and you don't know much about most of them. You didn't have the foresight to take into consideration anything about their obligations (children or caregiver to aging family members, job), or health or lack of insurance which is helpful when the cops fuck back.
Everybody pays the price and, therefore, they no longer protest and no one takes the protest seriously. That would be the point, is it not? It only takes a couple of YDC punks to buy into it and play it out as useful tools.
You dig?
Every one else that I haven't responded to, I will later.
Right-on GF
The vandals give the police an excuse to behave badly. By then attacking everyone who is peacefully protesting.
Vandals support Democide. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democide
Anyone not sure of that?
Well then consider - the only coverage by the MSM is the vandalism which they use to justify violence by the police.
Yep.
Crystal clear - one might say. Hey?
Pretty much.
And yet we have those that would attack such clear reasoning - and some of those "claim" to support Occupy. I would ( and do ) expect that kind of thing from supporters of corpoRATions the Greedy criminals of wall street and elsewhere.
Well said, Thank You.
no i don't dig. people have been agitating for change for over 40 years. it is time to step up or get off the bus.
Oddly enough, the first group of protestors seemed to do real well.
The second group did not do a damn thing. Gee, wonder why.
It isn't that people aren't "agitating for change". It isn't that people aren't in the streets. It's that you, yourself, do not recognize them unless they are breaking windows.
Odd that.
I prefer advocating as the descriptive.
i prefer advocating meaningful change through action. the only way to get the powers that be to do what we want is for them to fear what will happen if they do not.
You know, you come off as an agitator when you propose that others do what you yourself are not ready to do. If you are not the one out there destroying property, then it is immoral for you to be advocating for such actions. If you find this course of action wise and right, why are you not out there?
I don't suggest you become destructive, but I take issue with you telling others to act in a destructive manner. You come off as an agitator, or someone with no sense, having advocated a position that is illegal on a public forum.
If you feel violence is the only solution then you have already lost. Besides, instilling fear in the influential may not play out as you believe.
i didn't tell people to destroy things or be aggressive but i also don't act shocked and appalled over it either or as if the history books don't exist.
Then you should like this advocacy:
http://occupywallst.org/forum/any-comments-on-the-movement-to-impeach/
i said meaningful change.
Whats not meaningful about getting assholes out of office? The purveyors of Democide.
and replacing them with more of the same??? no thanks that is a waste of time and effort.
Want meaningful action to support? You can also spread education.
DKAtoday @DKAtoday
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sddb0Khx0yA … Clean energy - The missing link. Please Consider/Share/Circulate 4 our Future. View media
Power-Grid Level - Energy storage.
The alternative to getting bad people out of government and good people into it - Is ???
how are you going to get good people into it?
Finding those like Bernie Sanders. Those who work for the people ( those who when in office represent the people ).
Your alternative??? Is what???
bernie sanders is a self professed socialist good luck with that.
There are no others who support the People the Constitution?
and Again - Your alternative??? Is what???
it needs technocratic guidance by engineers, scientists, artists, programmers, etc.. not politicians.
direct democracy
Direct Democracy Still needs representatives.
Jeez man, Give it a rest. This isn't Stormfront.
It amazes me how we can disagree so widely on some issues and see eye-to-eye on other issues. This protest was screwed up by these punks big time. Their parents must be proud.
Pshaww. The odds are that we agree on many issues but this is the wrong forum for it.
That's my point. The average guy sees a bunch of people with OWS sign in the street and next thing you know they're trashing the place. The fact that most aren't involved is lost on him. Those guys are for you what that cop in Florida we've been talking about is to those governments - toxic. As a matter of enlightened self interest, OWS had better rid itself of them, or you'll be poisoned in the public eye by them.
Hm... How does a group divest itself of radicals or hangers on?
how does a movement expel hacks, conformists, and capitulaters?
This might an example of the problem you touch on. It seems some Law makers say all or nothing on Bamboo In residential areas.
http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2013/05/03/long-island-town-bans-bamboo-threatens-350-fine-possible-jail-time/
I like Bamboo, but don't think it will work in my yard here. Anyway I guess I would have to find safe variety and maybe one that doesn't grow tall.
Your Question: I find that a tough one. I could take notes, make legal audio recordings, use minutes of meetings, trace relationships, try to let the press know about the weakness, report on the internet, use Watchdog websites, ... try to organize opposition to voice their feelings in town meetings, protest the office, look for financial relationships and evidence, watch for lunches & dinners with the Capitalist Investors.....
bamboo can be an important part of permaculture gardens, it is edible, nutritious, and grows rapidly.
I had another idea... We can't control people we send to Washington. We can't watch them, see who they meet, see who they eat lunch & dinner with. There is little Visibility or transparency. This has got to be a principal. We can monitor local politicians, so the power should now be pulled back to the states
Especially since clearly there are no Regulations holding back corporations from corrupting Tax Law, banking Law, Laws of Incorporation, Setting up shell companies, setting up off shore headquarters, Setting up separate Tax Rates for Private hedge Fund Managers, and ... all the campaign contributions, Gifts, Air Plane Rides, Conventions, Vacations, Hotels, Dinners, and Lobbying.
LATE ADD:
And it is not so much that we can follow around our local politicians every day... it is that they live in the town & have a reputation & are well known. People tend to see what they do and... this keep them some what honest. unlike Washington which is full of private parties.
I guess Washington is quiet the party scene. Like every night. And it is so social that you have to go to parties to stay in the game.
Yep
State government is key to a properly functioning national government.
But it is also both Progressive and a Conservative Idea.
These two words have been coopted for political purposes to mean little today.
Yep - terms being used to fuel division.
Being either progressive or a conservative is in each case not a good thing or a bad thing - there are good and bad qualities to be found in both designations. As there can also be bad found in the term independent - Taken too far you have Ayn? ( rugged individualism )
We could watch them if we put cameras on them, and we should. There is no reason why we can't see who they meet and what they do. One third of the time, they are on the phone begging for money. That would be boring to watch live, but everything is recorded in case we need to look at it later.
Funny isn't it. They are public officials but won't want cameras and phone taps on them. I wouldn't want to work a job with everyone in my whole life... but you want power, want to make the big deals in politics they would do it. They put on shows for CSPAN just saying the opposite of what they will vote.
But think of DHS and all the Surveillance in the USA. How would the Bankers like to live under all the surveillance? I'm pretty sure if you are Wealthy or a Hot shot Executive for a TBTF bank ... you get totally different treatment. And I'm sure congress lives like another class of people too.
But really watching government keeps them more honest. Like we have laws to deter crime. laws don't stop crime. And when you deregulate... then there is no deterrence on Wall Street on Price Fixing, LIBOR Fixing, USDAfix Price Fixing, Gold & Silver Price Fixing......
I believe they would actually claim cameras aren't necessary for them because they're such upstanding people! Millions of people have to work with cameras recording them, and it's increasing all the time. As someone that had 16 cameras at my business, I am aware how boring it is to watch people work. However, if there is a problem, the recordings can be accessed quickly and show exactly what happened.
It doesn't make sense to have continuous problems, and not be able to solve them. Put the cameras in any area where there are problems, especially where back room deals are made. If there is a truly sensitive meeting where cameras shouldn't be present, have a camera pointing at the door of the room with a sign saying "secret meeting" is going on here.
The bankers are not public officials spending our tax money, but they record most of their employees, they should volunteer to be recorded themselves.
Since Washington DC is a very Social and has all these Dinner parties... Reasonable Legislation would confine parties to a few places with many, many cameras set up to record all the Relationships.
But just like they terminated the Congress Stocks Internet Transparency Law last Month... I guessing they won't vote to monitor themselves around contributors. They have their own congressional Ethics Committees, so they police themselves. No one else can.
And that works so well .... ummmm.... wait a sec........ No It Doesn't.
Yep, and the Government Accounting Office (GAO) is an arm of Congress that does auditing. But it doesn't police congress.
There is no one watching the watchers and there are no watchers, but citizens and press. Congress should be watching our government. But we can't watch them closely enough as a rule.
Normally you have some auditors and contract administrators that can watch government contractors. But the auditors are not on the scene and usually the contract admin guys is not either. So it depends on if there are visits to manufacturing facilities and some kind of contract rep.
When the Military goes to war and they have contractors provide fuel, food, services,... often times it is just military guys that might see what they are doing.
In the 1990s there was Defense Contract Management Agency Quality Assurance Inspectors and advisors that would visit some or all of the Defense Factories. But Congress did a Layoff of these government workers... I think they cut the jobs of like 3/4 of all Defense Inspectors, Quality Inspectors... but there might have been two different kind of quality guys with different jobs titles. QA.
Anyway the name changed for the inspectors and for the government agency. Might be under Defense Contract Management, DCM Agency now.
But they also implemented ISO 2000 or 8000 across the government, so I think these quality guys become advisors to help contractors produce the documentation to comply with ISO 9000 rules. There are always quality programs... Oh yeah, like Lean Six Sigma or Lean 6 Sigma Quality.
But... and USDA has University and Laboratories. So they are probably big on Quality.
But Congress doesn't have any body checking them for Quality. They have no Quality Programs. They don't demand the highest standards for Financial Conflicts of Interest. And they don't have to read the Legislation that they Sign. And they don't have to originate the Bills that they introduce.... as we know.
Congress is Hard Wired as is the Press. As we know. So we can predict very accurately what their actions will be in some cases. We know OWS will not be reported in MSM for instance. And OWS won't be mentioned by Congress.
We know Congress will cave to pressure and sign TPP and the New European Trade Agreement on Proprietary Intellectual Property Rights.
So anyway, that explains the No Bid Contract to Kellogg-Brown & Root/Halliburton for Iraqi war.
And this explains why when we buy fuel from a contractor in a war zone someone may steal part of it, make fraudulent claims of deliveries, or game the system in some way. Oh yeah they over charged for food I think too. Everything seems to get over charged to the government.
Ever go through a certification process for ISO?
It can be a very thorough process - but like any tool/process - it is only as good as those using/doing it.
It could if done properly - be a good A thru Z government house cleaning tool/process.
No. Do you think ISO could be used in Government Offices? Do you think ISO documentation could be used for US Banks & Investment Banks????
I sort of have an idea about documentation for a Law, or an Organization Mission. Like some of the SEC Financial Reports for Corporations.... You have to define all the terms, then create all these sections like a Contract or User Agreement... then you get Appendixes from A-Z.
In other words a continuation of trickle down ( and the catastrophe of the bail outs ) - only worse - as now it is expected to trickle back home from out of the country.
Brilliant - f'n suicidal assholes. Correction Democidal setting up their suicidal wishes.
[-] 1 points by Middleaged (4436) 4 minutes ago
Lloyd Chapman Speaks on Small Business in the USA and how it is ignored in the Media and by President Obama. 90% of new Jobs are created by Small Businesses he says... but he says the latest business spending reflect the federal government cutting spending on small business admin and increasing for Department of Commerce.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AMGQiTnlOyE&list=UUvsye7V9psc-APX6wV1twLg&index=2
He says the money is going to the big corporations that pay little in tax and are shipping jobs over seas.
He says all of the businesses in Silicon Valley started out as small businesses.
News out today is about how people self employed are down to low numbers that compare to 1970s levels.
Big businesses push for anti small business polices... And a big company can buy a small company and keep the rating as a small business for 5 years to perhaps get government contract advantages.
Media commercials draw customers by appeal to small business owners ... how ever cable & TV news will never mention small businesses.
Lloyd says there is no incompetence in government ... it is all strategic maneuvers. Look how Exxon doesn't pay any tax.
See my previous post 29 Corporations that pay no tax
http://occupywallst.org/forum/federal-tax-give-away-29-corporations-have-negativ/
Lloyd has a Fairness in Contracting Act that would support small businesses so it has no chance of passing in congress. ↥twinkle ↧stinkle permalink
Edited. see bottom section.
[-] 2 points by Middleaged (4436) 3 minutes ago
Then perhaps it is a conspiracy. It looks like all Government Manufacturing has been converted to ISO. But clearly, the powers that be decided not to implement ISO for government or Defense Offices.
I can't say what Charter has been used any where ISO has been implemented in Government Manufacturing.
I would guess that the Charter can be chosen or manipulated by Executives. He who has the gold makes the rules....
But it is encouraging ... to hear you say it can be done right, it would be strict and based on clear principals which could be carved into stone. ↥twinkle ↧stinkle permalink
It is all in how it is or is not applied.
An ISO certified business could make cement life jackets. ( good only as an anchor ) If that was the intent of the business to begin with.
That is why it would have to start at the top at the center - conform to the constitution - then expanding outward to all offices all administrations every aspect of government and it's bureaus every single operation - including contracts with private business with the private sector Domestic and foreign with foreign governments - would have to comply with the Constitution/Charter/Operating Parameters.
Yo
Yep. If really done. As it would take the Constitution as the charter of all operations. Every segment of government would have to meet that charter. How they are set up, what they are meant to do, how it all interacts. Everything A thru Z would have to be in strict compliance with the charter - The Constitution. There would have to be measures and standards that show that each and every bit of government worked in accord with the charter - The Constitution.
The same holds true for any process it is applied to. Banks or whatever.
Then perhaps it is a conspiracy. It looks like all Government Manufacturing has been converted to ISO. But clearly, the powers that be decided not to implement ISO for government or Defense Offices.
I can't say what Charter has been used any where ISO has been implemented in Government Manufacturing.
I would guess that the Charter can be chosen or manipulated by Executives. He who has the gold makes the rules....
But it is encouraging ... to hear you say it can be done right, it would be strict and based on clear principals which could be carved into stone.
Lloyd Chapman Speaks on Small Business in the USA and how it is ignored in the Media and by President Obama. 90% of new Jobs are created by Small Businesses he says... but he says the latest business spending reflect the federal government cutting spending on small business admin and increasing for Department of Commerce.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AMGQiTnlOyE&list=UUvsye7V9psc-APX6wV1twLg&index=2
He says the money is going to the big corporations that pay little in tax and are shipping jobs over seas.
He says all of the businesses in Silicon Valley started out as small businesses.
News out today is about how people self employed are down to low numbers that compare to 1970s levels.
Big businesses push for anti small business polices... And a big company can buy a small company and keep the rating as a small business for 5 years to perhaps get government contract advantages.
Media commercials draw customers by appeal to small business owners ... how ever cable & TV news will never mention small businesses.
Lloyd says there is no incompetence in government ... it is all strategic maneuvers. Look how Exxon doesn't pay any tax.
See my previous post 29 Corporations that pay no tax
http://occupywallst.org/forum/federal-tax-give-away-29-corporations-have-negativ/
Lloyd has a Fairness in Contracting Act that would support small businesses so it has no chance of passing in congress.
See also - Hemp/marijuana
http://www.hemp.com/
Food and more.
i believe all plants and fungus should be legal.
They "are" natural.
Well except for entities such as Monsatan.
In mainstream activities, those types end up getting promoted into management roles.
which is why they can't help but act the way they have been trained. so sick of these assholes. they think they can reform this shit. they will not reform shit. period end of story. i am beginning to think people are just too fucking stupid, lazy, greedy, and easily lead like sheep for systematic change to ever happen.
Your assumption applies to a section of the population.
Please do hold out hope for the required fifteen percent that it takes to create a revolution.
Remember that there are three kinds of people, QM. Those that make things happen, those who watch things happen, and those who wonder what the fuck happened.
you don't think we can hit the 15% mark?
I certainly do think we can.
The concern is that we will be rounded up and disappeared from the equation, before the real revolution can gain ground.
do you think waco could occur today with the internet and cellphone videos?
with videos showing the safety of the kids it would have been hard for the govt to have done what they did.
If you take note of what happened in Boston, with the military operation, and the house-to-house search, there's video of a whole family being marched out of their own house, hands on the head, body searched twice, and put in a van and driven away. Mom, Dad, all the kids, taken away. The neighbour filmed the whole thing.
The internet and cellphones actually swing both ways. The cell is a GPS tracking device, just as effective as wearing a prisoner's ankle device, and everyone's IP address is traceable, tho there's supposed cryptic servers and proxies, I'm not using one. Are you?
yes i always use a proxy.
Hmmm, might explain the helicopter hovering over my boat, and both my email accounts being hacked.
don't you guys have those to?
Helicopters we have. Drones are on order. Proxies are just web, which is global (almost). Our secret service is ASIO, and I don't think I'd wish them upon anyone. We still enjoy a measure of freedom of criticism of govt. It's actually a regular riot to make fun of the prime minister, both in words, and in cartoons in the rag media.
alphabet boys coming to get you?
All the way out here?
I'm not so sure it's impossible to consider.
Yep
First, tell 'em they're not welcome. Then, if it was me, I'd not permit anybody to march who was wearing a mask of any kind. Then, I'd video my own march. If some asshole started rioting, I'd call the cops on my cell phone, and give them a copy of my recording to help identify the perps. Then, I'd wrap myself in the flag and at a news conference talk about how much we disapprove of this violence, that we respect property rights and the rights of honest businesses to make a living, that these hoodlums aren't us, that we're just honest, law-abiding Americans PEACEFULLLY expressing our views, etc., etc. I'd turn us from a perp into one of the victims, or better still, a hero for helping stop that sort of thing from happening. It's easy, and maybe you get some really good PR out of it. All ya gotta do is say no to the assholes.
what honest business? the actions occurred at mcdonalds and nike asshole this is not some small business. these are exploitative fucks. you make me sick. enjoy the fema camps and your faux nationalism asshole.
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Good Reply. Makes sense. Thanks
Black-clad protesters used the large crowd as cover to wreak havoc through the downtown core.
Read more: http://www.komonews.com/news/local/Report-Experimental-police-tactics-backfired-in-dealing-with-May-Day-anarchists-201351081.html#ixzz2SNboqdbl
You won't be able to get rid of them. The only way to completely get rid of them is to stop protesting all together. Not all anarchists destroy or advocate for busting windows etc.
Truth.
And of those vandals not all are supporters of Occupy (if any) not all are even blackblock. Some most certainly are agent provocateurs.
Black bloc is a tactic and anyone can play. I think at best it is a show of weakness.
It really is here in America - until people start to go missing - until death squads start operating here.
But then the whole situation will have changed.
People already go missing. At this point, it has no point because it really doesn't go anywhere.
Yes people do go missing - but at this point in time - it does not look to be political. Or am I grossly missing something?
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Yup. Looks like police brutality to me.
http://images.search.yahoo.com/images/view;_ylt=A0PDoTBo6YNRJCkAegCJzbkF;_ylu=X3oDMTBlMTQ4cGxyBHNlYwNzcgRzbGsDaW1n?back=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.search.yahoo.com%2Fsearch%2Fimages%3Fp%3Dmay%2Bday%2Bseattle%2Bprotest%2Bbreaking%2Bwindow%26n%3D30%26ei%3Dutf-8%26y%3DSearch%26fr%3Dyfp-t-900%26tab%3Dorganic%26ri%3D6&w=606&h=404&imgurl=www.washingtonpost.com%2Frf%2Fimage_606w%2F2010-2019%2FWashingtonPost%2F2013%2F05%2F02%2FForeign%2FImages%2F2013-05-02T060550Z_01_MMM17_RTRIDSP_3_USA-MAYDAY-PROTESTS.jpg&rurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.washingtonpost.com%2Fworld%2Fphotos-of-the-day%2F2013%2F05%2F02%2F58b91156-b31c-11e2-9a98-4be1688d7d84_gallery.html&size=68.9KB&name=break+a+%3Cb%3Ewindow+%3C%2Fb%3Eof+a+pharmacy+during+%3Cb%3EMay+Day+%3C%2Fb%3Edemonstrations+in+%3Cb%3ESeattle+%3C%2Fb%3E...&p=may+day+seattle+protest+breaking+window&oid=bbe27658552c098ded1fa74241c9fac6&fr2=&fr=yfp-t-900&tt=break+a+%3Cb%3Ewindow+%3C%2Fb%3Eof+a+pharmacy+during+%3Cb%3EMay+Day+%3C%2Fb%3Edemonstrations+in+%3Cb%3ESeattle+%3C%2Fb%3E...&b=0&ni=144&no=6&ts=&tab=organic&sigr=13it67jbv&sigb=14b9hbj6v&sigi=14lakp2so&.crumb=EN/Xu1znggS&fr=yfp-t-900
Violent May Day: Police fire flash bangs, pepper spray at protesters in Seattle https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8p9QVK4htE Violent clashes marked the final hours of May Day protests in Seattle, as police officers fired pepper spray and launched 'flash bang' grenades into crowds, leading to two local reporters being pepper-sprayed and 17 arrests - READ MORE: http://on.rt.com/9o3z2v
Why? Well . . .
http://www.seattlepi.com/local/komo/article/Report-Experimental-SPD-tactics-backfired-in-4408363.php
your funny we both now that the police started the violence.
Yep
Protestors/marchers = many
Vandals = few
Police action/reaction? = inappropriate ( to say the least )
Democide http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democide
The objectives of such a plan of democide include the disintegration of the political and social institutions of culture, language, national feelings, religion, and the economic existence of national groups; the destruction of the personal security, liberty, health, dignity; and even the lives of the individuals belonging to such groups.[7]
The objectives of such a plan of democide include the disintegration of the political and social institutions of culture, language, national feelings, religion, and the economic existence of national groups; the destruction of the personal security, liberty, health, dignity; and even the lives of the individuals belonging to such groups.[7]
If that don't sound like govt under Obama, I don't know what does
I agree with DKA. Republicans don't see Sovereignty for other countries and they never see who enabling and colluding the Republicans are in the taking away of individual Rights, Privacy, ... and Obstructing Justice in the Fraud & Looting of the American Economy & Savings.
http://www.cbpp.org/cms/index.cfm?fa=view&id=1321 (Chart Declining Corporate Tax Revenue 2003)
http://www.americanprogress.org/wp-content/uploads/issues/2011/06/pdf/low_tax_graphs.pdf (Chart 7, declining Corporate Tax Revenue (1.3% of GDP) from 2011) (Chart 10, Looks like over $1 Trillion in Tax Loopholes in 2010)
Sure, I get it. Republicans might be in a Crony Network, making good money for doing little, ... and planning on taking care of their mother, father, and kids tuition.
So, you come here to feel powerful and flaunt your position. But you know you will never change your mind today. You don't care about Evidence, Financial Losses, The Reputation of US Financial Instruments, You don't care that in our system there are winners and losers... but the losers are your neighbors, your elderly, your veterans, and your kids future.
Do you see some inconsistencies in being in a Sequestor while congress is working on expensive immigration reform legislation, the DoD wants to put in new Missiles in Alaska & Guam for a 60 year old war that if we aren't prepared for after 60 years... I don't think we will every be prepared for.
Here is some evidence of the loss of Capital from our Economy and Corporate Tax Revenue:
But conservatives and Progressives should be able to agree about "Clean Methods of managing money, accounting for money, auditing trails for money, the need for clear, rigid, thought out budgets".
1) Tons of Accounting Scandals listed in the USA where the accounting firm was charged for fraud, control fraud.
2) The loose Accounting in corporations makes visibility and transparence impossible, unmanageable, and prevents effective regulation by the many interested parties including investors, local governments, voters, and congressmen.
3) Off balance Sheet Transactions & a Plethora of unregulated Financial Instruments creates huge systemic risk, many unknowns, deceives Investors, there is huge room here for standardization.
4) Private banking is known to multiply risk for the system and investors, plenty of room to standardize and reduce risky activity.
5) There has been no control over the Federal budget since 2001. This should make everyone made at congress, should be a Huge Media Scandal that everyone should know about. Budgets have to be Rigid with controlled growth targets.
6) The fact that Washington DC is so far away should tip off to everyone that we have no control over our congressmen, bankers, and corporations. It is a clear principal.
7) The only control you have is over your local politicians and local government staff.
8) No one controls TBTF Banks and Huge Corporations. That is why they don't pay taxes. And that is why hedge fund managers don't pay taxes. This is a clear principal.
9) Corporate Tax Revenue is Down, worker Wages & Benefits are Down, More people keep leaving the Work Force, US Capital has gone off Shore to build manufacturing production, There are fewer Self Employed in the US today than in the 1970s, Federal debt has sky rocketed as corporations have scored tax loopholes, tax abatements, lucrative Federal Contracts & Subsidies, Corporate Executive Compensation has gone out of the Roof, ... Folks this is called "Looting and Privateering". Both Conservatives and Progressives can see this.
10) How can a Corporation be a Person when a Corporation Can never perform a Patriotic Act, Can never go to War & Die, has no Conscience, Has no Morals, Focus's on Revenue, Profit, the Bottom Line and the Corporate Mission. Original Corporations had a narrow purpose and limited number of years for existence. Original Men were allowed to Vote because they could be Loyal, Patriotic, Fight in Wars, and bring value to government. Corporations have a place in the USA, but not as a voting person and not as a Corrupting Money Machine in Washington. This is a conservative idea.
http://www.businessinsider.com/politics-economics-facts-charts-2012-6?op=1
Notice the Total US Debt Line is a smooth curve it doesn't increase less when Republicans are in Office.
Notice that Corporate Profits are at an all time high while we are at a new low in total Americans working and a new all time low in Wages.
Hm... if you subtract borrowing under our Liberal economics polices the GDP looks terrible. But it is worse since Financial Transactions are measured in the Government GDP numbers... but financial transactions don't really help the country or economy.
Not sure I found the chart for Corporate Tax Revenue which is of course at an all time low percentage wise.... See my other post about 19 corporations that didn't pay any taxes.
But remember Social Security, Medicare, and Unemployment are Trust Programs with Strong Revenue from Payroll deductions. These are robust programs with strong revenue.
Wealthy Americans like Pete Peterson & the Think Tank "Third Way" want the money in these Trust Funds and they want to terminate your mothers social security. Do a web search for William K. Black articles and Videos on Third Way ... or see my post on Social Security Myths.
http://occupywallst.org/forum/federal-tax-give-away-29-corporations-have-negativ/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/excellent-article-5-huge-myths-about-social-securi/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/hey-assholes-your-individual-savings-interest-rate/
Again you get very selective in your condemnation - you do not include those in office in congress who are in open rebellion to The Constitution and The People - not to mention the same individuals ( in rebellion to the Constitution to the People ) in other parts/offices of government - State as well as Federal. No by your comment You only blame Obummer. As you also leave out prior administrations/governments State and Federal - as Democide is not a new thing - nor is it only a USA issue.
Didn't look to me like the guy with the skateboard was being hassled by the cops.
how do you know what occurred before, after, or during? were you there? is the camera shot a 360 degree panoramic picture? don't come in here trying to push your bullshit. we... at least i am not going to go for it you fucking shill. we don't even know that that was a protester and not a cop.
Spare me. The anarchists in Seattle have a history of vandalism and thuggery. Get real.
spare me the corporate media bias and the police state talking points. i am going to go listen to wire and remind myself how different i am from unconscious twerps like yourself.
You guys really have no idea of how silly you sound to people outside of your private little circle jerk when you talk like this. You're not offending me, I can barely stop chuckling. It ain't politics or mass movements, its farce. Keep talking like this, friend. But don't hope too hard for the mass awakening. This wouldn't play in Peoria.
But kidding aside, if you really, seriously think that smashing windows and burning cars is going to garner public support for OWS or anarchists generally, if you really think that statements like the ones you just made will ever be taken seriously by the general public, if you really think that the police lockdown after the Marathon bombings was a nazi crackdown and that some significant part of the public will agree with you about that, you're delusional. Ain't gonna happen, ever. Sorry.
it doesn't have to play in peroia if you read a fucking history book you would be aware that only 15% of the population was involved in the 1st revolution.
BTW, it's Peoria. A town in Illinois. A fucking town in Illinois.
And the percentage of supporters of the American revolution was actually more on the order of 30%. You're having a really bad day.
You're grammar's bad too. There should be a period after peroia (whatever the fuck that may be), and the following "if" should be capitalized.
If that pledge on this site is correct, OWS and its supporters are currently a bit less than 0.001% of the population of the U.S., assuming everybody on it is from the U.S. and assuming everybody on it is serious, which is doubtful. Include the world and its less than 0.00005%. Ya got a ways to go to get to 15%, and you're not gonna get there breaking store windows and trashing cars.
Spare me.
Your idiocy.
Your support for media twist/propaganda ignoring the overwhelming peacful.
Ever wonder why in a metro area of 4 million people they can only get a few hundred people out for their demonstrations? The 99% don't support that crap and don't want to be associated with it, that's why. And if OWS were smart, it would do likewise, instead of supporting and defending it.
Spare me.
Your idiocy.
Your support for media twist/propaganda ignoring the overwhelming peacful.
Your support for the MSM non-coverage of the peaceful protest components and messages.
If you're going to insult me, at least try to do so with some flair. Surely you can do better than the pitiful efforts of that itsmyblood guy.
I could, for example, call you a moron; but that would be childish at worst, unimaginative at best. I could reverse your own tactics and call you a pinko or commie, but once again, those are the mark of an uninspired aparatchik. Do I do any of those things? No, of course not.
I merely observe that your insults are sophomoric, and your politics sound like a read out of first-year college text on Marxism, or maybe material you've cribbed from the website of the socialist labor party. And neither make a compelling argument on your behalf to the average member of the 99%.
how about this douse yourself in gas and strike a match you piece of human trash.
Ah, I shan't do so. That would deprive me of the opportunity to engage in witty repartee with persons such as yourself, and I'd not miss that for the world.
you don't know me or persons like myself.
Ah, but we do engage in a species of witty repartee, do we not? A very particularized species, no doubt, but repartee nonetheless?
You're a nitwit. There's no point in continuing this discussion, such as it is.
Spare me.
Your idiocy.
Your support for media twist/propaganda ignoring the overwhelming peacful.
Your support for the MSM non-coverage of the peaceful protest components and messages.
Says what it needs to say
And so, perhaps, it does. But someday a long time from now, when you're an old and bitter leftist, and you and your remaining handful of comrades are sitting around wondering why the revolution never took wings, why the masses never responded to your message, why the mass awakening never occurred and why, oh why, are there no syndicalist worker communes, remember me. Remember this conversation. It will provide some answers on that dark day. Trust me, it will. The hard-line leftists of my generation all used the same rhetoric, the same tactics, displayed the same arrogance, and they've all been sitting around for years wondering those very things. And your day will come too, my friend. Count on it.
Your support for media twist/propaganda ignoring the overwhelming number of the peacful.
Your support for the MSM non-coverage of the peaceful protest components and messages.
Says what it needs to say.
loser
Indeed . . . when in doubt, resort to sloganeering and cheap insults. The oldest, and perhaps least effective, tactic in the world.
Can somebody please explain how destroying private property, breaking store windows, damaging cars, starting fires and intentionally provoking police contributes to the ideas of OWS?
Peace is the only way. Violence only serves to drive the masses away..
suck some conformist cock but don't choke.
So you think destroying private property is a good thing? Do you seriously believe is a step forward? What do these vandals accomplish?
These criminals are damn lucky they didn’t get there ass shot off.
Well in the past "Torries" had same view as ......
Who Were the Tories?
The Declaration of Independence said that by July 1776 the time had come “for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another.” But the signers of the Declaration knew that they spoke, not for “one people” but for a divided people. Tens of thousands of Americans opposed the Revolution. They called themselves Loyalists; the Patriots called them Tories. The Revolution is usually portrayed as a conflict between the Patriots and the British. But there is another narrative: the bloody fighting between Americans, a civil war whose savagery shocked even battle-hardened Redcoats and Hessians. As debate and protests evolved into war, mudslinging and rhetorical arguments between Rebels and Tories evolved into tar-and-feathering, house-burning, and lynching.
http://www.toriesfightingfortheking.com/WhoTories.htm
Not that any wish to repeat past violent mistakes
thanks for reminding me who these scum most resemble. the war vs. the torries is coming.
Wow, what a romantic view of anarchist assholes destroying other citizens property. The Tories had a cause, something to fight for. The antichrist assholes are just over privileged, overly naïve punks looking for a street party. They don’t care about OWS. They don’t care about the masses. Their just a bunch of cocky youngsters driven by testosterone. The problem is during their youthful outbursts they destroy everything in their path. Personally I’d like to see the cops turn the fire hoses on them.
I’ll say it again. Peace is the only way OWS will succeed. We talk about how the right wing is our enemy. I say the anarchists do more to damage to OWS than any conservative.
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Yes Ows are the rational peaceful moderate, and smashing 2 windows seems to give police permission to crack down, not allow the peaceful protests, and taunting the police, throwing stuff at them is likewise counterproductive.
But the MSM ignored may day untill there was this little excitement at the close, and then MSM says anarchists have no message but hooliganism, so it feeds into the stereotype, and hurts the cause for change.
If they want to sit in street and block police holding a sign with a message would've more effective.
Getting the bumper sticker message is the challenge...maybe Ows.org = universal health and living wage
That is, of course, your problem. The one guy in a thousand, or a million, who smashes a window becomes your poster child, like it or not. That's why you have to ruthlessly expunge them from your ranks.
Take an example from the NAACP in the 60's. In the face of the most extreme provocations from the police and authorities, in spite of the existence of the Black Panthers and other violent radical groups, they kept scrupulously law-abiding and peaceful. And it worked. They won, and they bercame the folk heroes.
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I agree with you. The anarchists have done more damage to OWS than any conservative talking head. They work against us. OWS needs to publically disassociate themselves for the anarchists.
I'm not against anarchists, however breaking windows may not be a clear message enhancer.
I appreciate their "enthusiasm" and wish for it to be channeled creatively.
I am against anarchists. I don’t let them off the hook because they are enthusiastic. They damage private property and injure cops (new story said eight officers injured). They are dangerous and OWS should denounce them. Peace is the only way this will work.
utsa matta choking on your bile? Can't answer some simple questions?
Are U a supporter of democide? Sounds like it - if you are not.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democide
The objectives of such a plan of democide include the disintegration of the political and social institutions of culture, language, national feelings, religion, and the economic existence of national groups; the destruction of the personal security, liberty, health, dignity; and even the lives of the individuals belonging to such groups.[7]
BTW - you have failed to answer the questions:
Are you white? If Yes - Does that make you a stinking Supremacist?
Makes you blindly prejudiced does it not?
The violent/vandals were few - the police were many - the vandals were not stopped. Looks like an action by agitators - allowed to continue.
By your definition - are hockey fans anarchists? All of em? As you get more violence/vandalism when they lose a championship then you saw the agitators commit on MayDay.
Drunk, pissed off hocky fans should be arrested. Just as the punks in Seattle should be.
However, I do concede that I don't know for sure if the Seattle punks were anarchists. But they probably were.
Are you white? If so - Does that make you a stinking Supremacist?
So you tell me if the punks doing damage in Seattle ware anarchists. Seems like it to me.
Fuck You - anarchy is not violence or vandalism.
BTW - more and more people are beginning to see and to say - that the Republican party is done - due to their actions and inactions. All of which shows their blatant support of not only the wealthy criminal but also their blatant support of Democide http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democide
So, were these violent protestors in Seattle anarchists? I think they were. Not only did they break windows, they set fires, damaged cars and injured eight policeman. So, anarchists or not they are punks and criminals.
As for republicans. I’m not republican so I don’t care what happens to them. I’m a liberal who thinks we can’t win with violence.
I don't know. Were They? Or were they perhaps agitators?
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shot for breaking some windows??? what the fuck is wrong with you.
Why not? People have a right to protect themselves and their property. Maybe it'd teach these anarchist assholes what the real world is like.
OK, Let me back up. No you shouldn't be shot for breaking windows. But some people might take matters into ther own hands.
My point is it's absolutely nuts to think destroying property will be accepted by the masses. At some point they will push back in one way or another.
or they will join in. could that be why they labeled assata shakur a terrorist? because she is one of the people who could motivate large numbers of minorities into the streets with just a word.
Son, you are delusional, pure and simple. Go out and try it. I dare you. Put your money where your mouth is, and try to start a revolution with property crime. Go out and do it personally. See what happens.
So, are you a man or a mouse? Will you do it? Or are you all mouth? If you're not willing to go try it, then shut the fuck up.
Open mouth insert foot.
Nearly 30% of Americans advocate for an armed rebellion http://rt.com/usa/americans-revolution-armed-percent-738/
not so delusional http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVof0qj7SOw
It’s delusional to think rational people will join in this type behavior. It will never happen, never. You’re living some type childish fantasy. I can’t speak for Seattle, but this kind of crap would be met with hostility and probably violence where I live.
I live in a conservative stronghold state. If you were to go on a destructive rampage here it would be seen as a riot or terrorist action. The police and the people would respond accordingly.
Please explain how breaking windows, damaging cars, starting fires and injuring cops accomplishes anything. I sincerely don’t understand it. You’re focusing your anger on private citizens, and you expect them join you. That’s crazy.
really delusional huh? Nearly 30% of Americans advocate for an armed rebellion http://rt.com/usa/americans-revolution-armed-percent-738/
I don’t believe the article. I don’t think it’s true that large numbers of people want an armed insurrection. However, I do agree that a large portion of the public think chaos is coming. Probably more like a financial collapse than a revolution. I would say a lot of the AR-15 sales are specifically in preparation for such an event.
So, for arguments sake, let’s say a revolution is in the making. I suggest the conservatives, red necks, bible belters gun nuts, etc.. will be against the anarchists. If a shooting war breaks out the “god and country” folks are ready. My point is don’t be so sure things will go your way in a revolution.
Narley, how come you so strongly denounce the "anarchists" in Seattle
While I've noticed you not doing so with the 'racist pigs' that are your neighbors
You seem to give them a free pass
~Odin~
I denounce racist pigs also. But they're not busting up stuff, injurung cops and turning people away from OWS.
For the record, I know a few hard core conservatives and they know I support OWS, but they take a live and let live attitude.
Really? They don't burn churches and kill people? They don't vandalize? Burning a cross on someones lawn is not violent or vandalism? Or spray painting racist BS on homes? REALLY
Yea, That’s bad, but it’s history and isolated incidents. No, I’m not defending racist assholes. I’m saying it has no bearing on the violence in Seattle.
Why are you arguing about this? Seems to me we agree. We both think the violence in Seattle is wrong. The only difference I see is I think they were anarchists; and that pissed you off. All I can say is peace is the only way we will accomplish anything. Surly you agree with that?
Yes - peace is the way. ( Racism is "NOT" just past history. Nor is it's violence. )
You won't get it by attacking anarchy. By doing such you "YOU" support democide http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democide
BTW -you never did answer the questions:
Are you white? If so - Does that make you a stinking Supremacist?
Not sure why it’s important, but I’m white. Why does it matter?
( Again you do not answer the full question )
Why is it important? Because using your demonstrated reasoning - you are most likely a supremacist - because - you are white. This meets your reasoning criteria of being an anarchist - because an individual is a vandal and violent.
@justiceforzim
What about violence or vandalism speaks to anarchy - to being an anarchist? NOTHING
If you think so - You are blindly prejudiced as much as Narley seems to be.
@justiceforzim ( no reply button )
Your reading comprehension lacks - comprehension:
Uh, yeah...I understand Narley's reasoning. I think most people iagree that the best way to judge a person is BY HIS ACTIONS. How would YOU decide someone is an anarchist? By the way they smoke and joke in a coffee club?
Dka. are you for real? An individual that is a violent vandal is described as such because of his ACTIONS. Being white is an accident of birth. Do you REALLY believe half the things you post?
Narley, I do remember you talking about how prolific racism is in your area, but i never recall you denouncing it on here. In fact what I remembered was your silence and purposeful detachment from it
No..... racists for the most part aren't "busting up stuff, injuring cops and turning people away from OWS." It's usually much more insidious and hurtful than that today
But it could easily be said that what they (the racists) do in collaboration with the state and the PID in particular is FAR more injurious to this country on the whole than what the anarchists are doing
I would assume that you, like me have not been that terribly hurt by the detrimental effects of neoliberalism as many other people have
I mean, you probably are living fairly comfortably, right? So it's easy to sit back and pass judgement on people
Now compare your situation to someone else's...a hypothetical scenario...maybe a young person who has seen his once proud Dad having his job outsourced, but before it was, he had to go through the humiliation of training his Chinese replacement worker
Then let's say, his Mom and Dad lost the only home he ever knew because he could not find work. Maybe he got sick with no insurance too
And there is no way that this young man can help them after graduating university with $75,000 in debt... while working at Walmart
So my first question for you Narley is; What would happen if the whole financial system fell apart, and YOUR retirement checks quit coming, and most of the money that you have in the bank or invested in stocks was lost?
There are a lot of people both in and out of Occupy who either... they, or their loved ones have been hurt by this fucked-up system more than either of us know
So i guess my point is, maybe you shouldn't be so quick to label these anarchists as "assholes, punks, and criminals," and instead show some understanding to people who have probably suffered far worse than you...hence have good reasons to be far more angrier than you
Remember that Narley....because someday, it might be.. YOU.., and if so, we'll see how calm...detached, and judgemental you remain then
~Odin~
I appreciate the well thought out response. To answer your question, Yes, I do live a comfortable life, but I’m not rich by any means. I actually fit your hypothetical situation. At one point I was a mid-level manager with a 100K salary, then was layed-off. To feed my family I worked as a furniture mover for a apartment moving company for six months. Then got another mid-manager position and was layed off again two years later. I ultimately got a another good paying job which I worked at for twenty-five years, then retired. So, I know my situation is not as bad as some folks, but it a tough time for my family.
I’m sorry, I cannot condone violence for any reason. Frustration at the system isn’t grounds for violence. Not to mention it undermines those who are actually trying to accomplish something. I concede I jumped the gun on blaming the violence on the antichrists. I don’t know that for sure. On the other hand, some folks have a knee jerk reaction to anyone bad mouthing anarchists.
Peace is the only way. I don't know why that's so hard for some to understand.
"In reality I don’t ( know? ) much about anarchists. My view is pretty mainstream. I suspect the average man on the street thinks anarchy and violence go hand in hand. And they’re probably not interested in learning about them."
Ignorance is not an excuse - it is a condition = lacking knowledge information.
How do you propose to make change for the better if you do not learn, if you do not educate?
News Flash Narley...you are not nearly as enlightened as you think you are
Your lack of understanding, empathy, and your severe condemnation of the youths in Seattle is typical for someone whose belly is full...doesn't need suspenders, and his roof not leaking, and it is indeed pompous!!
Maybe compared to some of your narrow-minded, racist neighbors you fall into the category of being a liberal, but
At best you are selective in the injustices that you choose to rail against as evidenced by your lack of condemning racism or, xenophobia, and not even taking a stance on here in our past exchanges says a lot to me
You seem to fancy yourself as a Peoria-type litmus test that we have to pass. Follow your sage advice and you should have yourselves a successful revolution
Your detachment is noticeable and a bit perplexing to me
Yes advancing this struggle is paramount to our success, but at what cost? Losing our 'in your face recalcitrance'...milquetoasting ourselves.....trashing and abandoning the youth in Seattle?.... Hardly!
This is a righteous struggle Narley, and it can withstand a few youthful indiscretions
We are not here to be all things to all people, so rather than trying to adjust our anarchist methods or message to be more appealing..palatable to more people
It is our job to educate them on just how pernicious this rotten system is, hence it is their attitudes that will change when they realize they are not living in the country they thought they were
So if you do indeed support OWS...which I am beginning to wonder about..., you should think about channeling your anger in the right difrection...The Rotten Fucking System!
~Odin~
The story of your work life Narley is no different from a lot of other people that I know, and
I too made many sacrifices and dealt with a lot of adversities in life in keeping a roof over my family's head, and in sending (as in paid for) two kids to two of the best universities in the East, McGill in Montreal and Fordham Lincoln Center campus
But the fact remains that things have gone steadily downhill from the time we were young men
What I find disconcerting about your criticisms of anarchists and hence your quick judgements is your seeming inherent belief that everyone has had the opportunity to have traveled the same road in life that you have, and your pompous-like criticism for anyone who hasn't
That combined with your seeming belief that you have done something extraordinary in life
I would counter that by telling you that you and I were in large part just lucky to have lived most of our productive work lives in a different time, namely before neoliberalism kicked into high gear, and/or possibly inadvertently having chosen a profession that was not easily outsourced
Even so, many people our age (62 plus) did not escape the severe detrimental effects of this corrupt system as you know, having lost there chances of 'golden retirements' due to the crappy AAA investments their unions made, and it goes on and on as you also know
Your inabiltity to 'understand,' not 'condone' the anger from young people in particular who see little chance for a bright future as we did... how it has negatively affected their loved ones, and how it manifests itself in sometimes not so good ways is amazing to me...really
I suggest you get off your high horse and try empathizing with their plights that most likely are a lot more severe than ours were
Let me ask you Narley; Have you ever spoken out against racism to some of those 'good 'ol boys' in Texas the way that you have trashed anarchists here?
I suspect not from past conversations we have had here on the subject
~Odin~
Wow, I didn’t realize I sounded pompous and arrogant. I certainly don’t feel that way. I’ve always considered myself a humble and empathetic person.
As I said, I may have jumped the gun on blaming the violence on anarchists. In reality I don’t much about anarchists. My view is pretty mainstream. I suspect the average man on the street thinks anarchy and violence go hand in hand. And they’re probably not interested in learning about them.
Again, I can’t condone violence in any form. The exception being in self defense. The reasons don’t matter. Living in a different era, with less opportunity is not a reason to destroy private property and injure people (eight cops were injured during this event).
OWS is taking the right approach. Peaceful activism. These hooligans are changing the public view of OWS. People will not follow violence.
And . . .
http://www.komonews.com/news/local/Windows-smashed-as-May-Day-protests-wind-through-Downtown-Seattle-149713705.html