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Forum Post: Are you illiterate? You might be surprised!

Posted 1 year ago on May 9, 2013, 2:01 a.m. EST by TheLoneWolf (-103)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

Many more Americans than we think are illiterate. They can read words on paper, but they often don't know their proper meanings. If you think you know the meaning of a word, but are wrong, this is worse than knowing that you don't understand a word's meaning.

Yesterday, I ran into such an illiterate on this very site. It made me sad. The person in question did not understand the meaning of scientific theory. He confused it with the layman's version of theory which is more akin to an assumption or hypothesis.

I explained that a scientific theory is the highest form of scientific knowledge. That it is a well supported explanation, supported by evidence, testing, etc... of a body of facts. That a scientific theory is a higher form of knowledge than scientific fact. Still, he would not budge.

Worse, he posted definitions of scientific theory that supported my position all the while thinking that it supported his. Truly illiterate.

In the end, he claimed again that theory in conspiracy theory means the same as theory in scientific theory.

How can we even start debating issues with such illiterates? What has America become? Education is at an all time low!

Sigh... Even when I asked him to check with a scientist friend he would not. He chose to remain ignorant, and that is the saddest part.


If you're scientifically illiterate like the poster I mentioned, or like most other Americans as noted in this survey:

http://www.sfgate.com/science/article/Americans-Flunk-Science-Basics-2981450.php

...you can read this short article to help you understand what a scientific theory really is:

http://www.livescience.com/21491-what-is-a-scientific-theory-definition-of-theory.html


Here is the exchange with the one we shall call "Boy Illiterate".

http://occupywallst.org/forum/are-americans-becoming-dumber-and-fatter/#comment-968205

117 Comments

117 Comments


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[-] 7 points by gnomunny (6647) from St Louis, MO 1 year ago

'Conspiracy theory' is a misnomer. They should more aptly be called hypotheses.

But I will say this, T. You need to lighten up a bit on your condemnation of Americans. Number one, how do you expect Americans to think critically when our entire school system discourages critical thinking? The only purpose to schooling in this country is to make the student marketable. Nothing more, except perhaps socially acceptable. A conformist. Critical thinking is not what TPTB want for the 'unwashed herd.' 'Thinkers' make good revolutionaries, and we can't be having any of that here, now can we?

And number two, most of the people in the WORLD are stupid. You act like it's exclusive to the states. That's absolutely ridiculous. If you were as worldly as you claim, you would know this.

[-] 3 points by arturo (3169) from Shanghai, Shanghai 1 year ago

Interesting, the support that you've received suggests that a substantial proportion of the people here sympathize with what is called "conspiracy theory".

[-] 1 points by gnomunny (6647) from St Louis, MO 1 year ago

Either that or they appreciate my comments about Mr T being too hard on Americans.

Conspiracy theory has a much nicer ring to it that conspiracy hypothesis, too.

And as you know I have no problem with most conspiracy theorists for two reasons. One, it shows a lot of people have a healthy distrust of the 'official version.' Kind of "fool me once shame on you . . . . "

And two, it shows people are still willing to believe in fantastical things. Personally, I miss the 'days of mystery' of my youth. I don't believe in Bigfoot, alien abductions, and the Loch Ness monster, but you know what? The world was a bit more interesting, and fun, when those things were accepted as reality.

It might not be logical, or "scientific," but it's human.

[-] 2 points by arturo (3169) from Shanghai, Shanghai 1 year ago

I agree on the importance of a healthy distrust for "official versions" as well.

However, when it comes to the "fantastical", my suspicion is that reality is actually much more fantastic than the official version would lead us to believe.

[-] 1 points by gnomunny (6647) from St Louis, MO 1 year ago

If you look at the big picture, I'd tend to agree. We only know a very small percentage of 'reality.'

[-] 1 points by arturo (3169) from Shanghai, Shanghai 1 year ago

There are a few links I wanted to send you on a series of Youtube videos that were uploaded recently, in which a number of US senators received presentations from authorities on UFOs.

One of the main issues that was discussed, was an incident at a nuclear missile facility, in which a number, something like ten, of nuclear missiles was inexplicably shut down when a UFO was reported to have appeared at the base.

The conference was for at least three or four days, and many one hour and a half videos had been uploaded on it, but they've all been deleted from Youtube over the past couple of days. Mysterious, isn't it?

[-] 1 points by gnomunny (6647) from St Louis, MO 1 year ago

That is mysterious. Do you have any saved? If you do, send them on over in a PM and I'll check them out.

If I don't see your reply tonight, I'll definitely respond tomorrow. It's getting a bit late here in the Midwest, heheh.

[-] -2 points by LoneRanger (-307) 1 year ago

I disagree with your two points:

1) One, it shows a lot of people have a healthy distrust of the 'official version.' Kind of "fool me once shame on you . . . . "

Distrust for distrust's sake is not healthy skepticism. It's actually quite dangerous. A healthy skeptic will distrust something if no evidence or insufficient evidence is provided. In which case he might try to investigate with proper research methods to find out the truth. What he won't do is knowingly use logical fallacies to try to fool his audience into thinking his assumptions are backed by evidence if they are not.

Conspiracy theorists are tricksters. Quacks. They prey on gullible people. Because of conspiracy theorists, people now distrust doctors. Some refuse cancer treatments and use baking soda instead. They die. Why, because conspiracy theorists tricked them.

Same problem with the anti-vaxxers. They are dangerous. A health hazard.

You want to distrust something because you have a reason too. Fine. Gather evidence show us. You want to keep distrusting doctors or vaccination specialists even after they have shown you wrong. After all the peer reviewed journals explaining that there is indeed no link between vaccination and higher rates of down syndrome.

Conspiracy theorists don't distrust in healthy fashion. They don't distrust because of lack of evidence. They distrust because of author. If it's the government or doctors, they distrust 100%. If it's their fellow conspiracy theorist, they trust 100%. It's a sad world when someone trusts a youtube video for health advice more than their doctor who studied for nearly a decade. A very sad world.

2) And two, it shows people are still willing to believe in fantastical things

You don't need lies to engage your imagination. People latch on to easy things like ghosts, or aliens. Even if there is no proof. That game is empty. There is fantasy all around you in the real world. You could study the bark of a tree for decades and you would keep finding amazing things. The real world has much more fantastic things in it than all the lies of conspiracy theorists. Plus, studying the real world pays off in the end.

Conspiracy theories are like fast food for the mind. They seem fantastic and exciting, but they are empty. Real science that studies the real world is the real fantastic food you should feed your mind with.

[-] -2 points by LoneRanger (-307) 1 year ago

Sadly, too many people, mostly Americans, lack the logic skills needed to see through conspiracy theories. They cannot identify all the logical fallacies used to construct them. So, they get caught up in the delusions. There's a reason those who believe in conspiracy theories believe in a whole bunch of them. They lack the ability to criticize and do proper research. For them, assumption, possibilities, coincidences, etc.. are enough. In fact, I believe they are scared of reality, and that is why they rather live in a world of make believe.

[-] 2 points by arturo (3169) from Shanghai, Shanghai 1 year ago

Sounds like you're anti-American. Some of our most important founding fathers were known to discuss their theories on conspiracies against the US as well.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (27660) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

Sounds like you are talking about yourself.

[-] -1 points by LoneRanger (-307) 1 year ago

That's because you can't read. You are illiterate. The other users will understand. You could too if you started to educate yourself.

[-] 0 points by DKAtoday (27660) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

That's because you can't read. You are illiterate. The other users will understand. You could too if you started to educate yourself.

Again - Sounds like you are talking about yourself. Your lack of comprehension. Go back to school start at the very beginning as you lack basic understanding - a 2nd ( 3rd ? ) go-round might " MIGHT " help you.

[-] 1 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 1 year ago

That was well put gnomunny, but I do also think we have a raft-load of ill-informed people in this country

~Odin~

[-] 2 points by gnomunny (6647) from St Louis, MO 1 year ago

Yes we do, the majority of Americans are ill-informed, I think. By design, of course.

But it irks me when people confuse "ill-informed" with stupid. Or illiterate.

[-] 2 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 1 year ago

Yeah there is a difference between being "ill-informed" and "stupid," but in the end the consequences for being either are the same

And at some point we have to take responsibility for letting it happen...for not being involved enough, including me

'Eternal vigilance' is what keeps things in balance, and that is where we failed

~Odin~

[-] 5 points by gnomunny (6647) from St Louis, MO 1 year ago

The more I read and hear about the long-term and very committed efforts of those we deem to be our enemies (I don't think that's too harsh a word), I wonder how much blame we should really place on ourselves.

I'm drawing a blank on a good analogy, but it's akin to a sneak attack. Or being sucker punched and blaming yourself for being knocked out.

Prior to the internet, what percentage of Americans, or people in general, would have even heard of some of these things we've been learning recently.

When I was still a juvenile delinquent, and would sometimes tell the adults some of the things the cops would do, they refused to believe any of it, because "the police are there to uphold the law. They're the good guys"

Until it happened to them, that is.

[-] 3 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 1 year ago

You make some good points g. There was a period of time when it was difficult to find accurate information unless a person really knew where to look which admittedly at the time, I did not.

I think it also had a lot to do with people in my generation just putting things on 'cruise control' mainly because they were just so involved in the daily battles of life...raising a family

That, and the fact that the threat... the consequences weren't as noticeable early on in the advent of neoliberalism

Many of the people we need to make alliances with are people who have suffered from this corrupt system for far longer than we have

That would include minorities who have been screwed for decades, low skilled factory workers who also had their jobs out-sourced decades ago, and so it went up the line until it is now it's hi-tech jobs, and a major push to deny people of their civil liberties

In order for us to progress this struggle, we have to accept the fact that many of us turned our backs on these early victims of neoliberalism

We have some healing to do in order to build the coalitions we need

I remember reading a column in Truthdig by Robert Scheer about the teachers in Wisconsin who were getting screwed, and him asking, how can you expect a person who lost his union 20-30 years ago to support the teacher's union now?

Where were we? Where were they...then?

This is one of the problems we have that we must overcome. The good news is we are getting a lot of help with the increase in austerity measures being instituted as more and more people are awakening.

Good Night...VT tomorrow for me...Solidarity

~Odin~

[-] 2 points by gnomunny (6647) from St Louis, MO 1 year ago

You make some good points as well, f. ;-)

Good luck tomorrow. And solidarity, my friend.

Good night.

[-] 2 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 1 year ago

Thanks, I always feel rejuvenated when I visit Vermont as I am reminded more of how people should treat each other

To a big degree the saying, "Vermont is what America was" has a lot of truth to it

It is up to us to see that an addenedum based in truth is added on to that adage and that is, '....and what America has returned to." ;-)

Solidarity...~Odin~

[-] 2 points by gnomunny (6647) from St Louis, MO 1 year ago

Great addendum.

One of these trips you should look up ZenDog.

If you dare, lol.

[-] 0 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 1 year ago

You wanted...ME... to visit Zen when I was in Vermont?? Whatta you think I'm crazy g? He might bite my ear or something off

B'sides Zen don't live in Vermont. He lives in Burlington, and saying you're a Vermonter while living there is akin to 'Anchorage-ites' saying that they are Alaskans! lol

I mean just 'cause you sit around the Church St open air mall sipping & dribbling latte's into your beard with some UVM coeds does not make you a Vermonter

He wouldn't know a fiddlehead from a mushroom, or a hardhack from a hickory tree, and he would have no idea how to make dandelion wine as my daughter does

All kidding aside, we did try to meet up last year when we brought some Swedish friends to Burlington, but due to time constraints, we were not able to. Also he is a good 2-3 hours north of where my daughter lives...in God's country.. so that makes it tough

I'm amazed at how well she knows the beautiful hilly, windy, dirt back roads where many of her gardening clients, most of whom are friends too live

~Odin~

[-] 1 points by gnomunny (6647) from St Louis, MO 1 year ago

"Sitting around the Church Street mall sipping lattes with college coeds . . . ."

Er, um, sorry, the mind began to wander a bit.

Welcome back! I see you've returned with your impeccable sense of humor intact. That's a good sign.

[-] 1 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 1 year ago

It's not really that Vermonters are "snooty." It's just that they are protective of their way of life, and their culture, and hence feel that people should adapt to it rather than vice versa

It's very simular to the atitude in Quebec where they want to keep their French culture

Isn't our...Occupy's refusal to adapt to the current corrupt status quo simular too?

There are many people in the trades, who take off work when the maple sap starts to run in the early spring, and then gather the sap and boil it down in the sugaring shacks to make syrup. And they do this because it is a beautiful part of their heritage, not because it is a money-maker

And don't bother calling a plumber or an electrician during hunting season, as you will most likely have a long wait. That's how I learned to fix a lot of stuff myself..lol

~Odin~

[-] 2 points by gnomunny (6647) from St Louis, MO 1 year ago

Ah, you should know that anytime I make a comment like "Damn them snooty Vermontians" it shouldn't be taken too seriously. For one, I'm a fan of multiculturalism. For all its faults, it keeps life interesting.

[-] 1 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 1 year ago

Yes when times are tough...that's when you find out who your friends are, and the kind of society we are capable of being

That wonderful spirit was alive and well even in NYC after 9/11

People bringing casseroles and all kinds of food to the local fire houses, and placing candles and flowers outside

Good Night

~Odin~

[-] 1 points by gnomunny (6647) from St Louis, MO 1 year ago

Good night, Odin.

[Removed]

[-] 1 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 1 year ago

Yeah i know you didn't mean anything by it. I just used it as a platform to explain the Vermonters' frame of mind from my perspective anyway

It will be interesting to see what Zen thinks of my assessments

I grew to have tons of respect for Vermonters over the years, and i feel that my three strong daughters got a real edge on life having grown up in Vermont

Like me, they don't usually give shit, but they don't take it either

I'll never forget all the people giving so much of themselves to help others after the torrential rains and flooding from hurricane Irene. It was really inspiring and beautiful

~Odin~

[-] 1 points by gnomunny (6647) from St Louis, MO 1 year ago

Irene. That was a bad one. Things like that, and Hurricane Sandy, are proof that there are still a lot of good people around.

[-] 1 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 1 year ago

Thanks. There's plenty to be serious about, but it's good to lighten it up once in a while

I'm fairly adept at getting a Vermonter riled up...lol and yes i get a perverse enjoyment in doing so

I must tell the truth though; When you as a flatlander are accepted by Vermonters, it is an honor, and you can go a long way before you find a better friend, especially when you really need one

~Odin~

[-] 2 points by gnomunny (6647) from St Louis, MO 1 year ago

Hmmm, does that acceptance include from Burlingtonians? Or are they Burlingtonites?

And, just as important, what's the definition of flatlander?

[-] 1 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 1 year ago

No flatlanders is more a term for people from the Northeast, and often who took up residence in Vermont, and did not leave their 'suburban baggage' behind. If you want everything to be the same, you shouldn't have left home

Then you have your 'fifis. Those are often 'kept' ski tourist women who wear those long furry boots that are really impractical in mud season, and they act like prima donnas who couldn't carry in an armfull of wood for the wood stove if their life depended on it

Then there are the 'leaf peepers,' who ride around going 20 mph under the speed limit to look at the leaves in the autumn, and slam their brakes on when they see a couple of cows 'getting it on' in the pasture

Flatlanders who have been in VT for a while, and Vermonters alike view these people with disdain, but we realize how important they are to the economy too

A word of advice; Never go into a restaurant to complain for the sake of complaining, or for treating people like shit...not until after you eat anyway

~Odin~

[-] 1 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 1 year ago

Not sure..Burlingtonians or ..... That acceptance has to be earned in a big way, and i can understand that...now, as many outsiders come to Vermont with a lot of high filluting ideas thinking they know better what's good for VT, and admittedly i was probably one of them early on. They just don't know how to turn off the bullshit either, and Vermonters see right through that crap

Case in point; I remember going into a friend's little grocery shop years ago to get a cup of coffee. Unlike here in NJ, there was only one pot and it wasn't finished brewing yet. There were two other very impatient guys also waiting for the coffee to finish too, and they were getting really uptight 'cause it wasn't done yet. So i asked one of the guys with a smile & a Vermont accent, what part of Jersey are you from? He got the message from me to chill, then smiled and answered back Connecticut. He knew then that had been acting like an asshole

A flatlander is a term that Vermonters use to identify anyone who was not born in Vermont, and preferrably has 2-3 generations there. It is probably used more on people from CT & NJ too, as we can be bad. It is not really that derogatory, but then again it is not complmentary either...lol

Many of my friend's who were flatlanders kids have married Vermonters including one girl I've known for almost 30 years who married a native VT'er Ross Powers bronze medalist in Nagano and gold medalist in Salt Lake for the half pipe

~Odin~

[-] 2 points by gnomunny (6647) from St Louis, MO 1 year ago

So, a flatlander is anyone who wasn't born in Vermont, eh? I told DK that it was probably broader than 'someone from Nebraska' but sheesh. Dat's a lotta folks!

Damn them snooty Vermontians.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (27660) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

[-] 3 points by gnomunny (4350) from St Louis, MO 7 minutes ago

I'm guessing it's a broader definition than that. From what I recall, Kansas is just as flat as Nebraska. Both are flat as a board until you get to the western parts, where you start getting into the foothills of the Rocky's.

↥twinkle ↧stinkle permalink

Well then - perhaps I am looking at this wrong.

A flatlander may well be the Corp(se)oRATists - denying that Corp(se)o RATions are killing us all.

[-] 1 points by gnomunny (6647) from St Louis, MO 1 year ago

Ah, but you see, he a seafarer from another world. So Lord knows what the hell he means really, heheh.

Just kiddin', Odin. I know you're out there.

If I were to guess, I'd assume a 'flatlander' in this case would be your generic Midwesterner.

And which, in my case, would be only about half right. ;-)

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (27660) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

And, just as important, what's the definition of flatlander?

An individual from Nebraska.

[-] 2 points by gnomunny (6647) from St Louis, MO 1 year ago

I'm guessing it's a broader definition than that. From what I recall, Kansas is just as flat as Nebraska. Both are flat as a board until you get to the western parts, where you start getting into the foothills of the Rocky's.

[Removed]

[-] 3 points by DKAtoday (27660) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

Why must people have to learn the hard way prior to being able to see what is in front of their face.

[-] 3 points by gnomunny (6647) from St Louis, MO 1 year ago

That's a good question. But like they say, the hard lessons are the ones that make the most impression. And in some cases it's not immediately in front of their faces. I think that's what it takes, for it to actually get close enough to penetrate their 'bubble' before they realize how serious it is.

From a far enough distance, even a tsunami looks benign.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (27660) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

I think it has to do with long term conditioning/brainwashing. Takes a considerable shock to penetrate the stupor.

1 Example of conditioning:

http://occupywallst.org/forum/one-way-that-people-are-schooled-to-develope-and-l/

[-] 1 points by gnomunny (6647) from St Louis, MO 1 year ago

Well, a considerable shock is possibly just around the corner.

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (27660) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

No doubt. And - I think - the sooner the better.

[-] 2 points by gnomunny (6647) from St Louis, MO 1 year ago

Me too, regardless of how bad it gets. It has to happen in order to get all this straightened out. Hopefully, when we come out on the other side, the good guys are the winners this time. Just think of the world we could build.

[-] 3 points by DKAtoday (27660) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

Just think of the world we could build.

The possibilities are stunning/brilliant/bright.

[-] 1 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 1 year ago

Simple question...difficult answer

~Odin~

[-] -1 points by LoneRanger (-307) 1 year ago

Being illiterate doesn't just mean not being able to read words on a page. It also means not being able to correctly understand those words. DKAtoday is illiterate when it comes to science. He doesn't understand the term theory for example. For him, it's the same as an hypothesis. But, in science the word theory is not at all the same as an hypothesis or an assumption. It's the most rigorous form of knowledge. The word theory in conspiracy theory means something entirely different. It means an assumption. Nothing more. Conspiracy theories are not backed up by evidence. They are backed up by logical fallacies. Always. That's the definition of a conspiracy theory. A real conspiracy cannot be uncovered by conspiracy theorists because they use flawed methods of research. Real conspiracies exist, but they are uncovered by investigative journalists who research matters appropriately and who really care for evidence and truth. Conspiracy theories work backwards. They have their conclusion, then they try all the tricks of logical fallacies to fit what they deem facts so that it makes their pre conceived conclusion shine. Conspiracy theories are dangerous because they blur the line between reality and fiction.

[-] 3 points by gnomunny (6647) from St Louis, MO 1 year ago

I agree with what you say about scientific theory and the difference between a theory and a hypothesis. As I watched your exchange between DK last night, I checked out the definitions on Wiki. But I don't completely agree with you about conspiracy theories. Some fit your definition and are pretty ridiculous. But others, not so much. I haven't drawn any conclusions about 9-11, and a lot of the shit out there is an insult to one's intelligence, but I believe originally the suspicions stemmed from certain discrepancies and the nutcases just ran with it, which discredits completely those who are looking for the real facts. I don't believe everyone who is skeptical about the official version just decided arbitrarily that there was a conspiracy involved, then tried to twist things to suit their belief.

Simply put, I think you make a mistake lumping ALL C-T's in the same pile. There's a big difference between the belief that there's more to the JFK assassination than the official version and the belief that the Queen of England and Obama are in reality shape-shifting reptilian aliens.

[+] -4 points by LoneRanger (-307) 1 year ago

If something doesn't fit my description (the dictionary definition, not mine really), then it's simply not a conspiracy theory. It's about the methodology, not the subject matter. A serious investigative journalist certain could investigate 911. He would not be called a conspiracy theorist if his investigation is done with a proper research method.

There is a big different from the NIST report and conspiracy theorist. The NIST report is done with great detail and provides mountains of evidence. Conspiracy theorists have nothing on 911 except logical fallacies like quote mining. Remember how they are obsessed with the "pull it" quote. That's because they have nothing stronger to rely on.

Could the NIST report be wrong, or even fabricated. Of course! But, it's going to take a serious investigative journalist to find out, not a bone skull conspiracy theorist.

[-] 6 points by Middleaged (5140) 1 year ago

So you Posit that the word Theory must be used in the Context of Science.

I'm not sure if this is true or not. If I say Conspiracy Theory, that might release everyone from the rules of Scientific Methods???? A fair question??

Social Science, Soft Science, Psychology, seem to be "Low Science" or Neo Science or Quasi Science... or not science.

Well if it is Asian Medicine, Indian Medicine, Herbal Medicine, or Western Medicine ... then it is a Practice. It is not Science.

Clearly if you were a scientist... you would not get into this kind of discussion.

[-] 0 points by DKAtoday (27660) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

Gonna make it blow a gasket? {:-])

[-] -3 points by LoneRanger (-307) 1 year ago

"Conspiracy theory" is an English expression with a clear definition. There's no guessing what it might mean. It's clear.

I'm not a scientist. Never said I was. I am literate however and do know the definitions of words I use when I write.

[-] 3 points by Middleaged (5140) 1 year ago

Is it a Colloquialism? Language is Dynamic. Dictionaries change all the time. However, if you write a professional paper, then you have to use current definitions. If you teach K-12, you will have to teach separate definitions for Theory, Hypotheses, Conspiracy, and Conspiracy Theory.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (27660) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

Your gonna make it's brain melt - makin it thimpk like that.

[-] -3 points by LoneRanger (-307) 1 year ago

It's a very well accepted expression in the English language. It's not a colloquialism, it is a formally accepted expression. You'll find it in any good dictionary like the Oxford.

[-] 3 points by Middleaged (5140) 1 year ago

Here is a supposed scientific Study which came from the best neoclassical economic think tanks, Reinhart-Rogoff Study. Actually this part 3 of a critique. I read the first 2 parts, but the latest part just came out. The lesson: you can't trust professionals without seeing their data and study methods for bias. In fact this R &R Theory has been accepted as fact by Congress or much of Congress. And yet they accepted it on face value because they wanted to believe it.

So, the best minds in Washington DC & Our Conservative Think Tanks fail the Definitions Test that you subtly support in this string.

http://neweconomicperspectives.org/2013/05/make-em-prove-the-causality-before-they-cause-any-more-suffering-part-three-reinhart-rogoff-retrospective.html

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (27660) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

[-] -1 points by LoneRanger (19) 11 minutes ago

What's with the red herrings. Were not talking about whether we can trust those who do science. The discussion was about certain terms and their proper definitions. Stick to the subject. If you want to change the goal posts announce your intention clearly. ↥twinkle ↧stinkle reply permalink

When it isn't being intentionally determinedly dumb - it seems to also have a hard time having a conversation. I am still debating if it is truly lack of comprehension or just it's game.

[-] 3 points by Middleaged (5140) 1 year ago

One Obvious tendency by the right is to control the conversation by narrowing a huge topic to a small idea.

Recently someone was saying, look at how few jobs were created the US Department of Energy as it funded these Solar Companies. Why, it was a million dollars per job or $400K per job.

But the Department of Energy is not there to create Jobs. The Administration could have freed funds that went to the Energy department for Energy Development loans... But most Americans in their 20-50 years old support alternative energy and realize that investment is need to support new development to develop the industry. Why look at all the spin-offs and technology that came out of the US Space Program...

You take a Sean Hannity, Bill O'Reily, or who ever in entertainment. They want to limit the ideas and the conversation.

It's public relations, but it is close enough to mind control. We have grown men in the USA that don't understand that protests gave them OSHA, Civil Rights, Women's Vote, the Black Vote, and all our Labor Rights like pay for overtime, restrictions of child labor, holiday pay, days off for holidays, the right to unionize, etc...

Guys that get unemployment don't know that came out of the Depression, Came out of Protests, Came from Activism, don't know what was the Cause of the Depression, and don't know the FDR gave them this benefit. It was because of the Spin of the Entertainment Industry (MSM).

Or maybe I don't know how people think or if they are told history when they get unemployment. The history of Unemployment Insurance, Social Security, and Labor Laws should be taught on the 24/7 Public information channel for protection of consumers sponsored by the FTC & DOL who protect consumers and protect pensions.

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (27660) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

Tell it like it is!!!

All true - like I said - your on fire.

[-] 1 points by Middleaged (5140) 1 year ago

Thanks, DKA.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (27660) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

No Problem - I call em as I see em.

[-] -3 points by LoneRanger (-307) 1 year ago

The problem is your illiteracy. Read the thread again and the definition of red herring. You'll see that Middleaged is trying to change the goalposts mid conversation.

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (27660) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

Fail

ur

u

r

a

Failure.

[-] -3 points by LoneRanger (-307) 1 year ago

What's with the red herrings. We are not talking about whether we can trust those who do science. The discussion was about certain terms and their proper definitions. Stick to the subject. If you want to change the goal posts announce your intention clearly.

[-] 2 points by Middleaged (5140) 1 year ago

I thought you would consider new ideas as this is the basis for science and inquiry. Hey, what is your position on OWS? Do you support the TBTF Banks or the Right Wing Think tanks?

Or more likely you see a lot of room for improvement in our many US Systems?

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (27660) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

[-] 1 points by Middleaged (4535) 2 minutes ago

I go in short spurts where I can think clearly... then a couple hours later I will start rambling probably. Actually I was pretty foggy an hour ago. Maybe writing helps me to be logical. ↥twinkle ↧stinkle permalink

You've been on fire - plenty of good stuff disseminated.

You have even had the lack-wit agreeing. ( watch out though I thought I heard it's teeth grinding ).

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (27660) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

aAHhaahaahaha stop your killing me hHEeeeHeheheheeee

[-] 2 points by Middleaged (5140) 1 year ago

I go in short spurts where I can think clearly... then a couple hours later I will start rambling probably. Actually I was pretty foggy an hour ago. Maybe writing helps me to be logical.

[-] -2 points by LoneRanger (-307) 1 year ago

The US system is broken beyond repair. Much too capitalistic. It should be replaced by anarcho-syndicalism, at the very least socialism. In my mind, US is a lost cause. It's going to die out. The future of political systems lies in other countries. US is being killed on many levels. Conspiracy theories are a huge problem. They disconnect the people from reality which means they can't ask the right questions to their governments. Now, because of anti-vaxers and the like, US citizens don't even trust their doctors anymore. It's pathetic. The system is entirely corrupted.

US is supposed to be a developed nation, but you still have the death penalty and the vast majority of states still don't accept gay marriage. US is way behind on so many fronts.

[-] 2 points by Middleaged (5140) 1 year ago

I was surprised recently when I followed some links on Tripartism and the list of See Also in Wikipedia. It had a reference to Syndicalism....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tripartism (Govt., Corp, & Labor)

The United States withdrew from the ILO, International Labour Organization, (Part of the UN) in 1977, based partly on the claim that communist countries could not send authentically tripartite representation.[8][9]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neo-corporatism (Corporatism references syndicalism)

Anyway... I'm not sure exactly that I would say Conspiracies Theories are the Root. But I think I understand your point. Americans love entertainment, stories, cheap newspaper gossip, and we love Hollywood.

Perhaps you would expand the list of problems to include:

1) The Noble Lie told by government to spin facts and political statements ... in fact they treat Facts like they are only stories and with a kind of disdain like they are a bother to be quelled.

2) The Industry of Think Tanks, Foundations, and Professional Proponents of Laissez-Faire Capitalism, Neoclassical Economic Theory, Neoliberal Theory, Privatization theory..... Conservative Mythology or Propaganda.

3) Crony Capitalism, Money in Politics, Lobbying, Gifts given to Congress, the Power of Corporations & Banks to change regulations, Taxes, and how they are enforced upon them.

4) Prevailing Culture that we can legislate and tell people how to live, what to think, and how to behave. Legislating Prohibitions where no one is hurt and activities are consensual or free choice. Taking away Self Determination. Creating Private Prison Industry and having the highest incarceration rate in the world with the most expensive system in the world as well.

5) US Spending. Even in a Sequester the Federal Government will approve new programs. Most expensive Criminal Courts, Civil Courts, prisons, military, congress, corporate expenses, corporate overhead, corporate compensation packages. And any where you see huge budgets like ours in the federal government ... there are many, many opportunities for cutting out the waste.

6) Too Many Lawyers, Lobbyist, and Tax Accountants. Couldn't we standardize and streamline income taxes, corporate taxes, businesses, eliminate shell companies, Financial Products, derivatives, private banking, Investments, .... make our court systems affordable to the common man, keep commercial activities in check with specific definitions and benchmarks, and precedence setting court rulings... to speed up the Civil Lawsuits.

7) Lawyers, Investment bankers, Lobbyist, tax Lawyers, Tax Accountants, ... a lot of this is just shuffling papers and putting a drag on the economy. We could cut through all this wasted labor. Maybe put a Tax on Corporations for the number of people employed in strategic jobs that don't add value to the Economy or the USA. These high paid people add tons of Overhead expenses that get written off of the revenue/Taxes. They don't add to a "Real" GDP that energizes the economy or adds value to the economy other than because the US Definition of GDP includes Financial Transactions.

Government Definitions have to be examined in order to clean up the Corruption of too high overhead and business activity that steals from the economy, drags the economy down.

[-] 1 points by Middleaged (5140) 1 year ago

Just adding that proof of US participation in a dirty war in Nicaragua didn't come out to the US public through Journalism. College journalism and free papers reported the US dirty wars. But no one listened. Iran Contra came out via a couple of people, a drug dealer in LA, a reporter, A DEA Whistleblower, and bank records from BCCI.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bank_of_Credit_and_Commerce_International

we can talk about methods all day. But if we don't go to Nicaragua, Panama, Honduras, Iran, Guatemala.... we don't get the story.

[-] 0 points by LoneRanger (-307) 1 year ago

One of the methods of investigative journalism is to go where the action is to interview people, etc... Conspiracy theorists just work from the mom's basement.

[-] 1 points by Middleaged (5140) 1 year ago

I give you a point for that. You are honest.

[-] 0 points by Builder (4202) 1 year ago

Then separate the two words.

A theory about the collusion of two or more individuals, plotting or scheming, is what exactly?

[-] -1 points by LoneRanger (-307) 1 year ago

If you are truly interested in the subject, I highly suggest you read the entire Wikipedia entry on conspiracy theories. It is really well written and researched. There's a lot of notes and references at the bottom of that link if you want to research even deeper. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspiracy_theory

[-] -2 points by LoneRanger (-307) 1 year ago

Other tell tale signs of a conspiracy theorist is the inability to accept clear evidence that contradicts his claims. This is in contrast to an investigative journalist or a scientist who are happy to shown wrong if they are wrong because they care about the truth, not about the conclusion.

A classic case is anti-vaxers. Those who want to stop vaccinations because they believe it is linked to autism. This all started with the erroneous report of one doctor. Other doctors showed he was wrong, more than once, and that there was no known link between vaccinations and autism. Still anti-vaxer conspiracy theorist still refer to the first report and ignore the others.

If you contradict a conspiracy theorist, his defense is either:

1) You are a sheeple. Blind. Your mind is in shackles, tricked by "them". 2) You are part of the conspiracy.

Other typical conspiracy theories are: natural cancer cures like baking soda, chemtrails, fluoride has a poison in water ways, 911 Truth, Boston Marathon, Elvis is alive, Hitler escaped Germany and went to live in Argentina, aliens at area 51, etc...

Nowadays, any event that had dead people is exploited by conspiracy theorists. They make a lot of money selling books to gullible people.

The Bermuda Triangle is sort of a conspiracy theory. It's the same kind of narrative even though there is no one conspiring. Basically, people who wrote about the Bermuda Triangle knew there research was wrong, but they still printed their work as if they had something of worth. It was just to sell books. Some later books even knowingly reprinted mistakes from prior books.

[-] 1 points by Middleaged (5140) 1 year ago

JP Morgan just did a study on the Wage Gap. Do you think they are implementing a Strategy to get out in front of a changing public Opinion about Banks? Could this be a Conspiracy?

http://www.cnbc.com/id/100727407 ( A Turning Point for Income Inequality? Friday, 10 May 2013, Yuval Rosenberg)

J.P. Morgan economist Michael Feroli did the work.

The rising income inequality of recent decades could be headed for a turn. That intriguingly optimistic idea, suggested by J.P. Morgan economist Michael Feroli this week in a note to clients, hinges on some other shifts happening in the economy. And it depends on economists being right about the causes of rising inequality, ....

It is really a fluff piece for CNBC from what I can tell, but hey, he is an Economist, works in one of the Biggest banks in the World, we should just Trust them even though the USA has been Decapitalized over the course of 42 years

http://wallstreetexaminer.com/2013/05/07/more-bad-news-on-dying-us-manufacturing-excise-taxes-drop-but-markets-have-reason-to-party-on/

Manufacturing is further eroding. Lee Adler does a pretty good job correcting the Government Data. Check the Wallstreet Examiner link above. You can't form an opinion very well if you don't understand the data.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/lloyd-chapman/obama-small-business-administration_b_2479357.html

Check out Lloyd Chapman for the Truth about the Core of US Economy the Small Business. See link above for start. Lloyd has a website devoted to protecting small business. You saw the story last week or so that Americans that work for themselves are way down to 1970s levels.... Anyway the small business contracts given out by the federal government often get taken by big corporations. There is a big problem with definition of a small business. Should be right up your ally....

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (27660) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

LOL - U will make it pop an aneurism.

JP Morgan just did a study on the Wage Gap. Do you think they are implementing a Strategy to get out in front of a changing public Opinion about Banks? Could this be a Conspiracy?

[-] -3 points by LoneRanger (-307) 1 year ago

Could this be a Conspiracy?

Sure, there could be conspiracies all around us. If someone uses proper investigative journalism they can uncover them. If they work like conspiracy theorists they can't.

Being against conspiracy theories does not mean being against the idea that conspiracies exist. They do. Many were figured out through proper journalistic methods.


It's not about trusting a person or another. That's just a logical fallacy - appeal to motive. It's about trusting evidence. If you think someone is shady, you can't accuse them of being untrustworthy without showing the evidence as to why. In other words, it's not because you think you can't trust someone that he is necessarily involved in a conspiracy. If that's all you have it's nothing at all.

[-] -2 points by LoneRanger (-307) 1 year ago

Conspiracy theory is an expression. Like hot dog. If you separate the words the meaning is lost. If you have real evidence that some people conspired to plot something nefarious, then it's not a conspiracy theory. It would be a journalistic report on a conspiracy. Investigative journalism is the antonym of a conspiracy theory.

The expression conspiracy theory implies a bad method of research. It's when people come up with a conclusion before beginning research, then they use logical fallacies to try to connect every fact they can think of in order to seemingly back up their pre-determined conclusion.

A conspiracy theory is basically a narrative genre. Look it up in a dictionary or on wikipedia.

For example, after the Boston marathon explosions, Alex Jones started a conspiracy theory that the FBI was behind it. This was a predetermined conclusion on his part. He said this a few minutes after the event. Then he tried to find "evidence" (more like make up evidence by connecting random facts and ignoring others) in order to arrive at his conclusion. This is a classic example of a conspiracy theory. Investigative journalist do not work in this manner. It would of taken them weeks before understanding what happened, and they wouldn't print their assumptions before they had strong evidence.

[-] 0 points by OTP (-203) from Tampa, FL 1 year ago

The problem is the people telling the "truth" arent doing any investigation either.

Rueters and the AP. Thats it. Get your stories of the day emailed to ya, and then spoon feed the public.

[-] -3 points by LoneRanger (-307) 1 year ago

Those quick stories aren't investigative journalism. You can read investigative journalism in some serious publications, not quick and dirty papers. Be smart and read the right stuff. But, even quick dirty papers are generally better than conspiracy theorists. They will admit when making mistakes, until CT.

[-] 1 points by Builder (4202) 1 year ago

"The very powerful, and the very stupid, have one thing in common; they don't alter their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts, to fit their views. Which can be uncomfortable, if you happen to be one of the facts that needs altering." (attributed to Doctor Who)

[-] 3 points by Renneye (3626) 1 year ago

==wicked grin==


[-] 1 points by Builder (3620) 53 minutes ago

I've accepted this peer-reviewed scientific evidence, and moved on. I hope you can too.

http://investigate911.org/

↥twinkle ↧stinkle permalink

[-] 3 points by DKAtoday (27660) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

Good one.

Have a jelly baby?

[-] 0 points by LoneRanger (-307) 1 year ago

I've accepted this peer-reviewed scientific evidence, and moved on. I hope you can too. http://investigate911.org/

It's an interesting research paper, but 911 Truthers have unfortunately blown it out of proportion. It's a small element in the case and doesn't necessarily point to planted explosives. Did you read the paper? The researchers don't claim this equals as evidence for planted explosives. They make that clear.

I moved on ages ago. 911 Truthers are a complete waste of time and quite dangerous. There are many other much more important eggs to fry.

But, if people want to spend time properly researching the matter and publishing more peer reviewed papers to acquire more evidence, all the power to them. Proper research is good, jumping to early conclusions based on bad research is not,

[-] -2 points by LoneRanger (-307) 1 year ago

When the government or a doctor provides you with an explanation for an event, and there's no way for you to check if that explanation is truthful and based on worthwhile evidence, only fools decide to replace the distrusted explanation by conspiracy theory fantasy. The smart person will accept the fact that he cannot really know and he'll move on to issues that matter because they can be resolved.

911 Truthers have been wasting everyone's time for 12 years and have nothing to show for it except for hundreds of videos using logical fallacies to propel their delusions. Does this help society? No. It makes things worse by blurring the line between fiction and reality and wastes everybody's time. Can we really know if the government lied or not? No, we can't. And, most likely never will be able to. It's highly unlikely that it was an inside job, but in the end, what does it really matter if we can know or not. We already know the government does all kinds of bad things. Bad things we already have tangible solid evidence for. We should go after those things, instead of wasting time with delusions based on logical fallacies. When you can't know something because you don't have access to evidence, you don't spend 12 years making assumptions. You accept that fact and move on.

[-] 2 points by Builder (4202) 1 year ago

I've accepted this peer-reviewed scientific evidence, and moved on.

I hope you can too.

http://investigate911.org/

[+] -4 points by LoneRanger (-307) 1 year ago

So you Posit that the word Theory must be used in the Context of Science.

Not at all. I said there was a different definition for the word theory when used in the context of science. It's not the same as the layman term used in conspiracy theory.

I'm not sure if this is true or not. If I say Conspiracy Theory, that might release everyone from the rules of Scientific Methods???? A fair question??

A conspiracy theory implies a flawed research method which has nothing to do with the scientific method. Someone researching an event properly is called an investigative journalist.

[-] 3 points by Middleaged (5140) 1 year ago

Or could be a OWS, concerned, tuned in, Investigator-Watchdog?

I agree Journalism used to produce great methods for investigation. And US study and Research Methods are good, taught at any college. Scientific methods are probably similar if not superior to college study methods.

But... why are you object oriented instead of people oriented. You are smart enough by age to want leadership. But you team is here and they are people. You are critical of people that could help you. I think you and I are close enough in position that there is no divide.

But your focus on methods is too time consuming and you seem to control the narrative. Which is what everyone is saying. Do you criticize the government methods or are you ignorant of those methods? Are you aware of the Billions spend since 1970 to educate young people globally in the right wing exclusionary economic neoclassic theory? Have you heard of the Ford foundation graduates that lead Military Juntas in Uruguay, Brazil, Chile, and Argentina???? This is not new information. Your government just kept you out of the loop on it. Like the wars in Vietnam, Nicaragua, El Salvador, Guatemala, Honduras, all the Banana Wars, etc.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banana_Wars
Between the time of the war with Spain and 1934, the United States conducted military operations and occupations in Panama, Honduras, Nicaragua, Mexico, Haiti, and the Dominican Republic. The series of conflicts ended with the withdrawal of troops from Haiti and President Franklin D. Roosevelt's Good Neighbor policy in 1934.

You are paying for all these wars.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_Is_a_Racket

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smedley_Butler

Off Topic????

Well you seem disinterested in humanity & Human Rights. You don't mind the assault by the US on sovereignty of foreign nations.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Covert_United_States_foreign_regime_change_actions

The thing is that secret policies or hidden power through wealth kills the ill and elderly as well as holds down the middle class in the US. But it kills men, women and kids in foreign countries while oppressing their desires for self government.

[-] -1 points by LoneRanger (-307) 1 year ago

You are critical of people that could help you.

Conspiracy theorists can't help me. They ruin the world. They are the #1 danger in US right now. Much more dangerous than the government in my opinion.

Do you criticize the government methods or are you ignorant of those methods?

Sure, there's a whole bunch of things the government does which I don't like. The government is corrupt beyond any doubt. But, you don't fix that with conspiracy theories. It just makes things worse.

The thing is that secret policies or hidden power through wealth kills the ill and elderly as well as holds down the middle class in the US. But it kills men, women and kids in foreign countries while oppressing their desires for self government.

Sure, what's your point? Another red herring. Conspiracy theories aren't the answer to this problem. They just make it worse.

[-] 2 points by Middleaged (5140) 1 year ago

I give you another point. but These are not Theories. The government kills people, destroys businesses, destroys homes, destroys culture, destroys history, kills kids, kills women, kills civilians, and deprives people of due process....

I guess you are stuck on ... that foreign people are destroyed?

[-] 1 points by Middleaged (5140) 1 year ago

Sorry, the solution could be in activism and in community trust. I feel bad for saying things are bad without saying anything about a solution.

There are several important things for you to cling to:

a) It helps to have a pet and to have spiritual beliefs
b) Protesting and Activism is historically the only thing that produces new law
c) We have Watchdog groups on the internet these days. The government publishes data and we people interpret what it means
d) Audit your government by checking the websites, OMB, Treasury, White House, Congressional Review Committees
e) If you look at Fiscal Government Data be sure to look at end of fiscal year data published on 30 September Monthly data or Daily Data either from Treasury or from OMB, Whitehouse.
f) There is the congressional record... this shows where the money goes... instead if Europeans staring at me... look at this.

[-] -1 points by DKAtoday (27660) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

A conspiracy theory implies a flawed research method which has nothing to do with the scientific method. Someone researching an event properly is called an investigative journalist.

Hey shit 4 brains - U R the 1 with the flawed stinking ummm thinking

Conspiracy theory - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Oooops almost forgot your theme song - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mwAcr-S1LSw

[-] -1 points by justiceforzim (-17) 1 year ago

Not really. It has become a term to try and dismiss uncomfortable truths by TPTB. To consider it flawed means you buy their trope.

[+] -5 points by LoneRanger (-307) 1 year ago

Did you actually read the Wikipedia link you provided? It backs up my claim. You really are illiterate. Here's a short excerpt:

"The term "conspiracy theory" is used to indicate a narrative genre that includes a broad selection of (not necessarily related) arguments for the existence of grand conspiracies.[1] Less illustrious uses refer to folklore and urban legend and a variety of explanatory narratives which are constructed with methodological flaws or biases.[2] Originally a neutral term, since the mid-1960s it has acquired a somewhat derogatory meaning, implying a paranoid tendency to see the influence of some malign covert agency in events.[3] The term is sometimes used to automatically dismiss claims that are deemed ridiculous, misconceived, paranoid, unfounded, outlandish or irrational.[4][page needed] A proven conspiracy theory, such as the notion that United States President Richard Nixon and his aides were behind the Watergate break-in and cover-up, is usually referred to as something else, such as investigative journalism or historical analysis"

Read the last line.

[-] 5 points by gnomunny (6647) from St Louis, MO 1 year ago

You have to read the full Wikipedia article to get the full gist of it and you know it T. To pick and choose "short excerpts" to back up your statements is the kind of thing you accuse others of doing. Consider, also from Wikipedia:

"Throughout human history, political and economic leaders genuinely have been the cause of enormous amounts of death and misery, and they sometimes have engaged in conspiracies while at the same time promoting conspiracy theories about their targets. Hitler and Stalin would be merely the 20th century's most prominent examples; there have been numerous others. In some cases there have been claims dismissed as conspiracy theories that later proved to be true."

Emphasis mine.

[+] -4 points by LoneRanger (-307) 1 year ago

Sure, there are conspiracy theories that were later found to be true. However, it's serious investigation that found out they were true, not the research of conspiracy theorists. It's possible that 911 was an inside job, I highly doubt it, but it's possible. However, it's not lame conspiracy theorists that will figure it out. It would be a serious investigation using proper research methodology.

[-] 3 points by Middleaged (5140) 1 year ago

Dude. I was in College facing long haired activists 25 years ago and they were right about US involvement in Dirty wars in Latin America. Iran Contra brought out more that the news reported. There were like 3 major cares going on. We were training killers to kill civilians in Central America.

The Long Hairs at College were totally right about the WTO, GATT, IMF, WB, CIA, Ronald Reagan,.... They didn't miss anything and didn't falsely accuse any US agency. Check the links on

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rick_Ross
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Contra
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bank_of_Credit_and_Commerce_International

http://www.salem-news.com/articles/november072011/cele-castillo-tk.php

Cele Castillo found out about the Drugs moving in US Military Plans and was a Whistleblower. No one wanted to hear his story about Latin America and the US Military Planes. So eventually they found charges to file against him... He has audios and videos on the Internet where he tells his story.

Seems here was a guy in the DEA in one Country who found information that lead to Iran Contra Scandal in another country. But no "Good Deed" goes un-punished. They later fabricated charges against him... and now he is in deep do-do.

[-] 4 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

''Tr@shy'' re. "It's possible that 911 was an inside job, I highly doubt it, but it's possible. However, it's not lame conspiracy theorists that will figure it out. It would be a serious investigation using proper research methodology." :

There you have it !!! This is what your two-faces (& many more too, lol) have been pushing and pulling at all along you schizophrenic, duplicitous, conflicted effin' scumbag !! Face up to 'the truth' as best as you can, you fkn conniving li'l troll but stop your B-S !

While you're at it, get your twisted head around some of this and go ahead and have another electrical storm in your already damaged brain while you are at it :

As you well know when you employ your misinformation cudgels, while most of us were not watching, the term ''conspiracy theory'' has undergone an Orwellian redefinition. A “conspiracy theory” no longer means an event explained by a conspiracy. Instead, it now means any explanation, or even a fact, that is out of step with the government’s explanation and that of its media pimps and Corporate PR whores.

In other words, as truth becomes uncomfortable for government and the functionaries of its 'Ministry of Propaganda' - the truth is redefined as conspiracy theory, by which is meant an absurd and laughable explanation that we should ignore.

For example, when piles of carefully researched books & released government documents and sworn testimony of eye witnesses made it clear that Oswald was not President John F. Kennedy’s assassin (or a ''Lone Wolf''), the voluminous research, government documents and verified testimony was simply dismissed as a “conspiracy theory” !

Therefore and also in other words, the truth of the event was unacceptable to the authorities and to the Ministry of Propaganda that represents the interests of authorities. In America today - and increasingly throughout the Western world, actual facts & true explanations have now been relegated to the realm of mere kookiness & only people who believe lies are socially approved and accepted as patriotic citizens or reasonable people. Well, to hell with that !!

Consider closely that any country whose population has been trained to just accept their own government’s word and to shun those who question it, is a country without liberty in its future or truth in its present due to the lies in its past !!!

temet nosce ...

[-] 2 points by Middleaged (5140) 1 year ago

oops you replied to me not Trashy.

[-] 2 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

Sorry this went to you 'Ma', but it was a useful error & here's one for you re. 'Creel' etc. mate :

e tenebris, lux ...

[+] -4 points by LoneRanger (-307) 1 year ago

Your argument is that because long haired activists were right about the US involvement in Latin America 25 years ago, today's activists must be right about conspiracy theories they put forth?

You see, this is exactly why I hate conspiracy theorists and find them dangerous. They don't know the first thing about evidence. If something similar happened in the past it does not mean it is happening in the present. That's not evidence. It's a logical fallacy. It's essentially worthless.

In essence what you're saying is that we should take conspiracy theorists seriously even when they don't have evidence because there were conspiracies in the past that were found to be true. This is extremely dangerous. It's like saying we should consider a black man guilty of shooting another person simply because the crime happened before in the same county; no need for evidence, there was a precedent.

Sorry, I want none of that. I demand evidence for every claim concerning every event. If you have evidence show it. It's only the desperate who come up with logical fallacies instead of evidence. If you had evidence you would show it. You don't, so that's why you tell us that they just might be right because some of them were 25 years ago. Pure garbage.

[-] 5 points by Middleaged (5140) 1 year ago

Dude, you are sitting on your ass. you don't know what your government is doing in Syria, Libya, Yemen, Jordan, UAE, Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran or Cuba.

You have to admit the Media is all career oriented. Now why would a young man or woman report or try to report anything about Iraq not having any weapons of Mass Destruction.

I don't know how to say it. Robert Baer wrote a book about it. The US doesn't follow weapons movements because it doesn't want records. It wants weapons to flow through the Middle East.

We either make things happen ... or we let things happen as that is more politically expedient. But the nature of Geopolitics is that we send guys in to talk to the young leaders and say we can help them with some kind of support. (Trust Me).

We manipulate foreign leaders just as we manipulate foreign rebels.

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (27660) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago
[-] 2 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

That's funny, true & a li'l - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bd2B6SjMh_w too ! pax ...

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (27660) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

[-] 2 points by shadz66 (12512) 0 minutes ago

That's funny, true & a li'l : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bd2B6SjMh_w . pax ... ↥twinkle ↧stinkle permalink

Thanks I'LL have to check out that link next. CRAZY - Nice thx.

I don't know if you know who Gumby & Pokey are. ( kids show claymation characters )

If you are you might get a kick/laugh out of this comment -

http://occupywallst.org/forum/the-gumby-act/#comment-969317

[-] 1 points by OTP (-203) from Tampa, FL 1 year ago

Or its simply declassifying the information and making it available.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (27660) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

Originally a neutral term, since the mid-1960s it has acquired a somewhat derogatory meaning,

A proven conspiracy theory, such as the notion that United States President Richard Nixon and his aides were behind the Watergate break-in and cover-up

Your theme song as you perpetuate making conspiracy theory a derogatory term: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mwAcr-S1LSw

In your own way - U R Like Jesse Ventura - giving Conspiracy Theory - A Bad Name.

HiHo LoneStranger - Awayyyyy..............

[-] 1 points by gnomunny (6647) from St Louis, MO 1 year ago

"It's about the methodology, not the subject matter."

That's a damn good point. And for the record, I haven't really paid a lot of attention to 9-11, it was just an example. I'm not really interested in 9-11 all that much, there are too many things I find much more interesting.

But it's 3:30 AM here, T, and I have to go. See you in your next incarnation.

[-] 0 points by Builder (4202) 1 year ago

Case closed. We know who the enemy is. Move along, hippy.

http://investigate911.org/

[-] -1 points by LoneRanger (-307) 1 year ago

Is that case closed for you? One article about one thing in a peer reviewed journal? What about the hundreds of articles in peer reviewed journals against the theory of demolition. You don't demand much evidence for your case. But yeah, it's case closed. The irony is 911 doesn't matter in terms of knowing if the US government does bad things. We already know that for a fact from many other of its actions which are clear and undeniable. Like doing an illegal war. Planting the idea of WMD. And many other things. I have no idea why Truthers are so obsessed with an event that cannot be understood in full. It's an utter waste of time. Concentrate on attacking the government for things we already know it does.

[-] 1 points by Builder (4202) 1 year ago

The irony is, you're the one that is saying we should move along, while hanging on like a limpet on an exposed ocean rock.

Make your own mind up. Do you want to break out a twelve-year-old debate? Or do you want to go with the "we know our enemy" conclusion?

[-] 2 points by Middleaged (5140) 1 year ago

You are confusing 3-4 discreet issues here. You write well. You understand Science. But you are not writing about Literacy. You are smart. But we have Biases and cognitive distortions. These are a factor in all studies.

Facts & Theories are proven and we try to memorize these. But the body of Knowledge or what is proven changes over time. Facts are disproven at a rate that is incredible. I can't remember the quote 60%, 80% of what we believe is true when we are born is disproven by the time we die.

You are making a great point about the state of pseudo science and pseudo studies in the US Media. I believe that corporations have control over 66% or just most studies conducted in the USA. Just like Government Spin, and Government Data Collection that is manipulated for stock markets & politics. True, this will be called Conspiracy Hypothesis by many.

Many would Agree that Science is the Best Philosophy we have ever had on Earth. But most of us don't know that we don't know histories & cultures of Asia, Central Asia, and Africa... The Roman Empire was a great Destroyer of Culture, so seems ignorant that some people would it was a great creator or great culture (proof that we don't even know our European History).

Jesse Ventura's TV Show Should have been call Conspiracy Hypothesis.

MLK's Assassination appears to be a True Cover up and therefore is a True Conspiracy.

If everyone Knows we Falsely Started the Wars in Vietnam & Iraq... then I guess those are Facts. But no one talks about these facts much. The Human Rights Violations conducted in Canada & the USA over the last 200 years against Native Americans is factual. But the spin and lack of Responsibility directly lead this nation to Lie about the Start of the Vietnam War, the Iraqi War, and resulted in New Human Rights Violations after 2001. What do you call that?

Anyway one Cognitive Error or Distortion is Black and White Thinking, Right & Wrong Thinking, the belief that there is no question about the issue, no gray areas. This actually creates what is called an "American Shadow Side" where we Refuse to look at certain Issues. Maybe this is a kind of National Psychosis.

When we protect people from the Truth this happens.

What happens in a family if the family hides Domestic Violence, Alcoholism, Drug Addiction, Family Problems, Rage, or even Mental Illness.?? This creates a Shadow that no one wants to look at.

Now consider... Neoliberalism or American Capitalsim. We have created huge Shadows, dark places the Media Refuse to Look into. The American national Psyche thinks we have the best nation on earth.... but we hide the economic realities, the high incarceration rate, the social problems, the aggressive prosecution of our own people for marijuana or drug possession, the devastation of young black men in their communities, the work skills problems, the education problems, the problem of Crony Capitalism.

If you got this far check our some links:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual_education_system

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhine_capitalism

Albert identifies the following characteristics of Rhine capitalism:
- the world of finance is more dominated by the banks instead of the stock exchanges,
- close relationships between banks and companies,
- a well-adjusted balance of power between share holders and managers,
- social partnership between employers and unions, employees of higher loyalty,
- better educated employees thanks to something like the dual education system,
more regulated markets and – last but most importantly –
- shared values by most of the citizens regarding the ideas of equality and solidarity.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_model
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_corporatism
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tripartism

The International Labour Organization is the only United Nations agency that is based on tripartism. It uses the discussions between the three groups in drafting of standards and conventions. Also for the implementation of ILO-standards in national law tripartite consulations on a national level are a requirement[7] for those countries party to the Tripartite Consultation (International Labour Standards) Convention, 1976.

The United States withdrew from the ILO in 1977, based partly on the claim that communist countries could not send authentically tripartite representation.[8][9]

I think there is a Fact provable that the US education System picks winners and losers, but mostly I think the Education System is doing what it is design to do: 1) Create Loyal Citizens 2) Prepare students for Work (not critical thinking, not to create the smartest people in the world, and not to help them lead the world or the USA)

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[-] 0 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 1 year ago

You're a real 'whangdoodle' Thrassy, but I appreciate you in a sorta quirky kinda way

Errr...did i use that word correctly? lol

~Odin~